You Can be a Human LIE DETECTOR (How to Read Anyone!) Top Facial Expression Expert | Annie Särnblad

My friend. I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, the Greatness Mindset just hit the New York Times bestseller Back to Back Weeks and I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it and finished it already and and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life 10 years ago at 30 trying to figure out transitions in my life and the book I'm glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy@lewishouse.com 2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com 2023modset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

I had a meeting once and I leaned forward and I said, you're a good leader. I can make you a great leader. And the guy's jeebles went ding and I tripled my price.

You're smart. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. And with Sirius xm, everydrive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, the sports talk and podcasts that you love right in your vehicle or on the SiriusXM app. Every SiriusXM equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three month trial, so the experience begins the moment you drive. Learn more@kia.com sportage-hybrid Kia Movement that inspires this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com the School of Greatness is sponsored by Capital One. Nowadays, most people subscribe to everything. Music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks. Until you have to manage it all, which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block or cancel reoccurring charges or right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com Subscriptions Terms and Conditions apply. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Annie Sonblad in the house. Good to see you. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I just want to share a quick bio about you. You're often referred to as a human lie detector. Your globally recognized speaker and strategic advisor to some of the most powerful human beings in the world, specifically in Fortune 500 companies, and the author of this new book called the Diary of a Human Lie Detector. Facial Expressions in Love, Lust and Lies and already within first 15 minutes of meeting you, I felt like you have so much more information than I knew you had by just analyzing my facial expression and by giving me some cues already about what I'm doing and I guess things I could improve on potentially. But you have seen a lot and you've studied a lot. There's actually a certification that you have what is it called this facts it is called which is facial action coding systems and it is a background on scientifically backed micro expressions and the ability to numerate numerically code 10,000 muscle combinations in human expression. For me, I don't know how you do that because it just seems like how many facial expressions are there first off that we can put words on and what are the ones that we should be really looking for when we're first meeting or interacting with anyone? Whether it's a potential love interest, whether it's a potential friend, a business colleague or partner, a boss, what should we be looking for and how many, how many facial expressions are there?

Okay, so that's a lot of questions at once. That's really exciting. So let me start off with the facial action coding system was developed by a couple of behavioral scientists based on the work of Darwin. Darwin wrote in 1872 about the expressions of man and animals. And he realized that going from tribe to tribe where people had no connection to each other, that he could start. And he did years and years of going into civilizations where people didn't have connection to much of the outside world. He started to write down and chart and dissect the different muscle combinations in human expression because he started to notice, even if he didn't understand the language, he could see if someone was angry, if they were happy, if they were afraid, if they were feeling surprise, for example, and. But those facial expressions were the same. So the work that I'm doing, it's ironic because I'm an anthropologist, so I should be looking at culture, right? But the work that I'm doing is hardwired into us. It's the universal language of humans. Us as a species doesn't matter. Geography doesn't matter. Your age, your socialization. Even people who are born blind make the same facial expressions. It's universal.

Universal. Doesn't matter what language you speak, doesn't matter where you're from in the world. We all make similar facial expressions. Is facial expression. Do we all make similar body expressions, too? And are they different facial expression and body language.

So body language varies from person to person. You and your brother could react differently with your body language, and. But your facial expressions will be the same.

Really?

Yes. The facial expressions are all the same. So think about.

So look more at the face, not the body.

Right. So I can talk about body language a little bit when we get further into this. But think about it. When you're scared. I mean, right now I'm a little nervous because we've just met for the first time and we're being filmed, and this is kind of exciting, and I've read your books, seen your podcast. So my hands are cold.

Well, it's also cold in the room. I make it cold in here, babe.

On purpose.

Yeah.

So. But. But the reality is that the blood. When I'm afraid or nervous, the blood rushes down to my legs and my feet so that I can run.

Interesting.

When we're angry, it pumps into our fist so that we are ready to fight. When we human beings are sad, we cry. When we're nervous, we sweat palms of our hands in our armpit pits, sometimes on the breath. When we're aroused, the blood pools into the middle of our bodies. We would not survive as a species if this were not true.

Interesting.

Okay, so that was like the. Oh, crap. That was. Oh, crap, Annie. Here she goes. But the reality is that every emotion leads to a change in blood flow and muscle movement in our bodies and on our faces, we have a physiological response to emotion.

So what influences the emotion? Is it a thought that we generate or a thought that we.

Well, that's a really good question. So, like, if I have a really hot cup of coffee and I touch the coffee, the first thing that happens is I move my fingers back. I don't think, oh, my goodness, this is hot. With my brain, my body, the muscle movement comes first. The micro expressions precede the thought process. So I can't. Even after my years and years and years of training, I can't stop myself from making micro expressions unless I change what I'm thinking about.

Unless you're intentional about the thought. You're like, okay, I'm gonna. There's gonna be loud noises. I'm gonna act calm and relaxed. Even though my body would probably flinch or react or turn around or see what's happening. Body reacts based on its environment. Sounds, words, expressions.

Right, right. Which is why those of us who experienced trauma, we get triggered really, really quickly, very easily. Right. And so when I said that trauma, you did the rectangle of your mouth, the tendons of your neck. Junk. That's fear. That's. Oh, crap. Right. That's a response. And you pulled your upper eyelids back. Okay, so that's also fear. We make this full facial expression of fear, the macro. We pull our upper eyelids way back. We show the sclera, which is the white above our eyes, and we make our mouth into this giant rectangle.

Why is that?

Okay, so the pulling back of the upper eyelids is so that we gauge our exits. And the opening our mouth into a huge rectangle is so that we can scream for help. And so what I call the oh, crap is just that little piece of the rectangle. Yeah. And it's the only expression that makes the tendons of our necks jump. So even if I'm looking eye to eye and I see that little tendon, something was unsettling to you.

Now, is this an observation of us, you know, mirroring and mimicking our parents or siblings when we were younger or watching expressions of others or if we weren't able to see anyone, would we constantly create this intuitively in our DNA.

All day long, really hardwired into us?

So it's not a mimic because we mimic a lot of body language.

We do, yeah. We mirror a lot of body language and mirror.

And so we're like parrots.

Right, Right. But so if you are really stressed and you come in and you keep puckering your Chin. Because you're having a really, really hard time. And they say, louis, how are you doing today? And you say, great. I'm like, oh, honey, do you need a hug? Even though your words said great, you're puckering your chin because you're feeling sad and vulnerable. Right? So I know that micro expressions are the very deepest of listening skills. So I see you can tell easily.

If someone's lying based on facial expression.

Yes, because the facial expression won't match the words. So that's what we're always looking at. So, for example, if you say great, and you show vulnerability, well, you're not feeling so great.

No, you're not.

You're maybe not trying to deceive me on a deep level. You're just trying to kind of fake it till you make it right. So if you say, I hate broccoli, and you show disgust. Right. When we have little children. When we have little children, this is what I call. I call it the no phase. But it's got three main pieces. The macro, which is big expression. It's got the wrinkles next to the nose, the deepening of the nasal labial furrow, and the pulling of the upper lip. Did you have that girl in seventh grade is like, are you gonna wear that? Are you gonna wear that? Like, really? So I take the micro expressions, and the way that I have been able to advance the field of science is I teach the one thing that's significant to each expression, each emotion. So with disgust, if you just look for nostril shadows, I mean, I speak all these different languages, so my thing is translating. So I needed to take this entire field and teach it to my little kids so they can protect themselves.

Keep them safe.

Yeah, keep them safe. And so we call it the no face. And so if you have deep shadows right next to your nose, that's. No, I don't want to. That smells bad. That's icky. And the big expression of disgust actually shuts off our nasal passages up to about 80%. That's what it's there for. But we make that same expression when something is socially toxic. Like, I don't want to. So if you say, annie, tomorrow I want you to come over at 5am and we're going to sit down, we're going to process a lot of this for three or four hours. And I go, right where's. That doesn't mean I don't like you.

It just means you just don't want to do it.

I don't want to get up at 5 in the morning I don't want to do it, or I've already double booked. Or this is just a quick no. It's just a little flicker of no.

Interesting.

And so if I'm saying, I hate broccoli, oh, man, I will not give you broccoli. You do not want to eat broccoli. I will not serve you broccoli. But if you're saying, yeah, I'm really happy to do this interview with you, Annie, today, I'm going, oh, honey, no, you're not.

Wow. What have you seen for yourself personally and with the work you've done with high powerful individuals are the three main benefits of mastering the art of facial communication.

So, empathy and safety. So. Or what I call connection and protection. Okay, so it's a. When we see what someone else is really feeling, we can adjust, we can help, we can love them better, we can teach them, we can lead them better. We can, you know, somebody is, is really feeling uncomfortable, we know that they're feeling uncomfortable, and we can ask them questions and we can offer help.

Right.

If someone, for example, is in a mergers and acquisitions situation and you say, okay, so I'm buying your company, I need to know that your technology is going to be ready in three months. And they go, absolutely. And that's the fear. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So your body's betraying you. Your body is saying that you don't believe. So do I know that you don't have the technology ready? No, but I know that, you know, there's some. Your body's telling me there's something off with that.

And so maybe it's just more information to say, okay, I could go forward, but it could be a greater risk.

It shows us where to dig.

Right. Let me dig in deeper on that. That's fascinating. Is it possible, like, even with you knowing this and studying this for so long, is it possible for you to lie and, and get away with it facially as well? Like. Or is our body so intuitive that we could say a word and the body is just going to say the true meaning behind that word?

So a really good spy can create two parallel lines of existing.

It's probably just so uncomfortable. Or you have to disassociate with your mind and say, well, this is for a greater purpose or greater service. So I'm going to act as if I'm this person.

Right. And why it's even really difficult for those of us who have loved ones who act because they are putting themselves my girlfriend. Right. Yeah, well, and so you're going to your soon to be wife, you're going to have to have extra compassion. When she's doing a role that demands a lot of emotion, it's very hard to just take off those clothes afterwards. And so her body is going to believe she's been through that trauma if she's doing a traumatic role. Yeah.

Luckily she hasn't done any like, traumatic stuff. She's done a lot more lighthearted, like romantic comedies. So it's a little bit easier. I think that's a little bit easier. But you still have to play a character.

Yes. And so, I mean, I think about. My kids tease me about this all the time because I'm always looking at these different actors and musicians too and going, oh, my God, who's parenting this person? Who's taking care of them? Because when we put ourselves through emotions, our body believes, our brain believes we're going through it. So I found that for myself when I teach and I'm holding the expression, like, you know, holding full on fear. Your body feels it, my body thinks, my brain thinks. I've lived it.

You're in fight or flight.

And so I would burst into tears the day after, even though there's nothing dramatic going on in my own life.

You needed a release afterwards. Yeah.

So I need a 90 minute massage afterwards.

That is fascinating because, I mean, I grew up in the world of sports and playing football. It was a such a switch of a mentality getting on the field, one for safety, to like put yourself in a warrior state.

Because it is a warrior state.

I even had an alter ego, you know, an alter ego that I, when I crossed the line, I stepped into a warrior.

Did you have a name for the alter ego?

Well, my alter ego was Jerry Rice, to be honest, because as a wide receiver, I was like, okay, more of a visualization alter ego. But I, I embodied a character of inflicting as much pain as possible on people. That was like a survival mechanism.

And that's a lot for your body.

Exactly. It was like, how can I inflict as much pain as possible to dominate and win? And then afterwards, you know, it's like you have, you need time to like, shed that character, in a sense. You need time to shed it, to, like, process.

Yes.

Sometimes I'd be in like a bad mood afterwards or just like, all right, I need like a night to just sleep it off and get back to like a loving, peaceful state.

Right. It would be hard to go from there to go on a date and.

Be soft and warm and snuggled. But yeah, it's Interesting. It's challenging for, I think, actors or athletes or musicians who have to play a character night after night and get back to a state of who they.

Are, I would say, and think about even. I mean, so one of the things, when you're telling me this, I'm thinking, well, at least you are moving and all of this. At least you had an outlet. So, like, physically there was some result of this.

And I was tired, too, at the end.

Right.

I was exhausted.

So, like, okay, so if you just. If you're acting and there's no physical piece of that, then you're just stuck with all this sort of nervous energy and trauma.

Interesting.

That's really interesting.

So you really wanted to master this one for yourself, but also be able to teach your kids on how to be safe. What are the. What are the things you really teach them to look out for? From their early childhood to teen years and then now into some of them, into their professional lives? What were you teaching then and now?

So the biggest piece is that the facial expressions need to match the words. So nice to see you. That's disgusting. Contempt. That's growling. A grown man growling at a child, That's a problem. That's predatory behavior.

Yeah. And for those only listening, if you go to the YouTube, you'll be able to watch Annie's facial expression as you're explaining this.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I have them all across my site. I just recently started to put up all the expressions on my website. It's on my socials, it's on YouTube. I'm putting them out, out into the world.

That's great.

So that other people can learn them to keep themselves safe. But the main focus for my little kids, when they were preverbal, we did a lot of mirroring. You know how you can get little babies even before they start to speak? You can get them to stick out their tongue.

When you stick out your tongue, raise your eyebrows.

And so we did a lot of, like, I have one kid that still does this. A lot of, like, crazy eyes. I would get them to mirror. Oh, a lot of. And make sounds to the facial expression. So we practice the big macro expressions. And I would put words to them in the same way. I'd be, you know, coffee, apple, banana. So they've never not had words for expressions. And babies know this innately. It's our universal human language. It's the language on which we build spoken language. So our facial expressions are across all cultures. It's a species thing. But we, you know, the sounds we make for different words are different, but we use that. If you're looking at me and you're going to. I know that's something bad. And if you're looking at me and your cheeks are popping up. So let me ask you this. How can you tell if someone's giving you a real smile?

If they're smizing.

Smizing? What's smizing?

Kind of like right there.

Yeah.

Your eyes are kind of like crow.

Okay. So I can give you crow's feet.

Oh, yeah.

With a really fake smile.

The bottom half is not there. Yeah.

It's all in our cheeks.

Is it? Okay?

Okay. So when we're happy, our cheeks pop up and then this skin is usually flat and we get smile bags.

Okay. Yeah.

So if we have smile bags so.

The cheeks are pushing up against the eyes.

Yeah.

It has nothing to do with a fake smile. But you're not authentic smiling. Gotcha. Interesting.

So all you have to do is look at the skin right here. If it's fat, they're happy. And that was my four year old saying to me when I took them out. I took my kids, we lived in Singapore when they were little. And I would take them out into the world and live. Narrate. Almost like a nature show in Swedish, because I'm Swedish.

At home, you see someone walking and having a conversation with each other. You say, they're doing this, they're doing this.

Yeah. And then most of the time I do what you do. We just ask the questions. What do you see? You know, kind of like there's a book. I can't remember what the children's book is called, but it's like big bear, what do you see? What do you see? And that's what I would ask, what do you see? And they would say, well, he's showing disgust because she's in her space. What happens now when she says something funny? Well, now he doesn't mind because he lifts his cheek. And so my, my daughter Emma was four when I was describing all these different points on the face for joy. And she said, mama, you just have to look at the skin right there. If it's fat, they're happy. And that was sort of the beginning of pulling this one piece that was specific for each emotion, which is what I teach.

How many people innately know this? Because you feel, you hear. A lot of people talk about like, you know, trust your gut, trust your intuition. But why do so many of us go against our intuition or our gut?

Because we're not taught to believe it. So we are not taught the science. So the Museum of Science in Boston has been one of my clients. It's all scientific, it's all biology. So that's the difference really, between the body language and the facial expressions. I can tell exactly what you're feeling at any moment. I can't tell why. I don't know what you're thinking. I'm not a mind reader. I'm just a feelings reader. But it's clear as day. I mean, I should have asked you before. I said, like, what, Am I allowed to use technical terms?

Yeah, of course.

Okay, so if a man has an erection, he's aroused. Period. If I see a naked man in front of me with an erection, he's aroused. Now, I don't know if he's thinking of me. He could be thinking about the guy next door. He could be thinking about the beautiful model that he saw earlier in the day. I don't know. But clear as day, I know which emotion he's feeling. He's not feeling sad, he's not feeling angry, he's not feeling nervous, he's feeling aroused. Facial expressions are as universal as that. It's a change in blood flow and muscle movement in response to an emotion, and it's clear as day. It is universal and it is our species, our human species. It has nothing to do with anything else.

The School of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. The holidays are such a special time to travel and gather with loved ones. They think about some of your best trips. Those cozy spaces, thoughtful touches, and the feeling of being right at home, wherever you are. Now imagine getting to provide that same experience for someone else. Because when you travel, your place is just sitting empty while you're away. Hosting on Airbnb can be a no brainer. And in a season where new experiences creating lasting memories, it's a unique way to help others make their own. And Martha and I both travel a lot, especially with her family in Mexico and mine all over the usa. So we know what it's like to be on the go during the holidays. And from our experience, hosting has always been easy and straightforward. And whether you're traveling often or just once in a while, it can be a simple way to earn a little extra while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host the holidays are here, and with them comes all the cheer and the spending. And I think we've all felt the pressure of finding the perfect gift for the perfect price. And and those prices are sure giving us a run for our money. You know how it goes. One gift turns into 10. You're trying to stay on budget and before you know it you've spent half a day scrolling, comparing prices and wondering if you should have just gotten everyone gift cards. It can feel a little stressful trying to make it all feel special without breaking the bank. But luckily you can get the holiday savings at Metro with the most wonderful deal of the season. Get one one line of 5G for only $25 a month and a five year price guarantee on talk, text and data. The best part is that you can keep the phone you love and keep your number and no activation fees. And that's what I'm talking about. A deal that actually lasts five years locked in. That's peace of mind right there at Metro. Get that more for your money feeling. Visit your local store today. $25 a month with autopay $30 your first month guarantee exclusions apply. C site for details Cold mornings holiday plans this is when you need your wardrobe to just work. Stuff that looks sharp, feels good and you'll actually reach for quints. Makes gifting easy when everything's worth keeping for yourself. By partnering directly with trusted factories that maintain high standards for craftsmanship and ethical practices, Quint cuts out the middlemen and markups. That means premium quality at half the cost of other high end brands. So you can give luxury pieces without the luxury price tag. And it goes beyond their clothes. Quince also has incredible home and bedding options to make your home cozy this season. Martha and I have the European linen duvet cover set from Quince. And let me tell you, the duvet set is so soft and high quality. We highly recommend get your wardrobe sorted and your gift in list handled with Quint. Don't wait. Go to quint.comlewis for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com l w I s free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quint.com Lewis whether you're young or old, you make the same facial expressions in our faces. Arousal is a dilation of the pupils. Our pupils go ding and swell. And that's interestingly enough, that's arousal for money. That's arousal for greed. That's arousal for romance. So it just basically a swell of the pupils. A dilation of the pupils is I want, I want. Give me, give me, give me, give me, give me.

No, it's desire. It's desire, power, fame, success, money. All these different things.

So if you're in a negotiation, you see the other person, you're introducing your deal and you're pitching. And I can make your pupils swell. I had a meeting once, and I leaned forward and I said, you're a good leader. I can make you a great leader. And the guy's jeebles went ding, and I tripled my price.

You're smart. Wow.

I mean, to be fair, I was a woman in Asia and I was charging way too little money for my services. So there you go.

Wow. That's crazy. That's fascinating. Just the little cues. Yeah, the little cues that you could pick up on can help you make better decisions.

Better decisions and safer decisions. For your money, for your business, for your love life, for your friends. And so when I work, for example, with every once in a while I'll go in and work with a family that maybe has kidnapping risks for their kids. You know, that that is lives a very high profile life. And they want to be able to make sure that their kids know and have words to sound the alarm when somebody's acting in a dangerous way.

Right.

And so, equally important, usually I'm brought in cause they think Annie's gonna train them to recognize predatory behavior. But if you're in the public eye, it's just as important to understand who loves you and who wishes you well. Because if we're raising kids to be fearful and weary of everybody, we're doing them a great disservice. Cause as you and I both know, the meaning in life is finding people that we connect to and that we can love well and who love us well.

Right? Absolutely.

And so the understanding intent has those two pieces of people that really don't wish me well at all, or who want to use me or abuse me or hurt me. And then I want to know who doesn't care about my money or my fame or anything else. They just want me to be okay and they just want to love me.

How do you know the difference between someone who wants to use you or take advantage of you in life versus someone that wants the best for you?

The facial expressions are going to tell you every time. So exactly like what I was talking about earlier when if you had met me and you had said, so great to meet you, and you're growling, no, you're not happy to meet me, or you're saying, oh, I heard you got a promotion at work and you're doing the bunny rabbit twitch right here. You don't like that at all, no matter what your words are saying. But if you say, I'm so proud of you, and your cheeks pop up and you get these smile bags, and I'm going, oh. I said something really vulnerable when we just met. You know, we talked for, what, five or ten minutes before we started this interview. And as soon as I said something about something that was hard, you puckered your. And you just do that intuitively. That's empathy. That's kindness. That's. I feel your pain. I care about that. I worry about that. I want you to be okay. And so when we see that empathy, that person's really feeling our feelings with us. And we do. You talked about mirroring earlier. And we do. We mirror other people's expressions all day long, especially when we're connected with them. So back to that question that you asked. How do you tell or can you change your facial expressions? I can change my facial expressions by changing the ideas in my head. So I had to fire a board member once, and he'd done these egregious things. And we decided as a board that we needed to do it as a group because this person was going to try to go out to constituents and try to destabilize the whole organization. And so we sat down and they said, annie will do it. Annie's not afraid of conflict. So I started reading this list, and I said, we need you to understand that this is unanimous and we are firing you from your position, and here is why. And I was growling at him as I was saying. You were? Yes, because I was saying these horrible things that he did, and I was disgusted at them. Yeah, I was disgusted. And then I'm thinking, because I know that I've got all these people that I have to get along with, and they're watching me growl like a dog, and I needed to change my own expressions, and I can't create those full parallel lines of thought, but I could feel myself just getting more and more worked up. So I just repeated in my head, loving kindness. Loving kindness. Loving kindness.

While you're saying these things, you don't agree with. Wow.

Yeah. And I got. I got pulled aside afterwards from a friend that had. I'd been training, and she said, you're halfway through.

You switched.

You switched. And I said, oh, yeah, here's what I did. It was the only way I know how to do it.

It's kind of like thinking, okay, I'm not enjoying this, or maybe I'm having a. A difficult conversation with this person that naturally my facial expression Would snarl or growl or whatever.

Yeah.

But I'm going to intentionally have as much compassion for this person as well. I don't agree with it. I don't like it. Maybe they wronged me or hurt me.

Right.

But how can I also see the humanity in the person and I guess wish the best for them in the future? You know, it doesn't mean you have to.

Which is most of the people. I mean, I just. We just had a conversation about, you know, the people that wish you ill and the people that wish you well. But most of the people are kind of in the middle.

Yeah, of course.

You know, they're just kind of struggling. Struggling along. Which is exactly what you're saying. Right. They may not be the best person for you to have close in your life. Maybe you don't want to work with them, maybe you don't want to be friends with them or maybe. But there's nothing. They're not inherently evil.

Yes.

They're just somebody that you're saying, hey, this doesn't work for me. And. And yes, that's. That's how I cheat. The system of my micro expressions is by loving kindness. Loving kindness.

Loving kindness, Compassion.

Trying to find that empathy. Because most people are struggling.

There's a Swedish movie remake that's an American movie now, I guess. Girl with a Dragon Tattoo. I don't know if you've seen this movie, the Girl with a Dragon Tattoo.

I think it's too scary for me. I think there's some.

Yeah, the English remake of it. There's a scene towards the end that essentially the psychopath murderer who, like, locks people up in the basement and kills people or whatever, tortures them, whatever. The main character goes to the house because he's kind of suspicious about him. He's like, huh. I think he's not a good person, but he's in a position of power. He's part of this family business. And he's going up to the house to kind of like, check on his intuition and to snoop around. And then all of a sudden no one's there. But then the bad guy, Tom, drives back in and enters the house and he kind of gets caught. And he, like, he's outside walking around and the guy's like, oh, why don't you. Why don't you come on in? But intuitively he knew, like, something's off. But he goes in anyways to be courteous. Right. He's like, okay, like social courtesy. Okay, I'm going to go in and just have a conversation. So it doesn't look like I'm suspicious. Eventually he, you know, drugs him or catches him. He's in the basement, Tie him up. And he's having this conversation with him. The bad guy's having the conversation with the other guy and he's saying something like, isn't it interesting that our intuition knows but we still follow? We still have that conversation with someone even when we know emotionally we shouldn't, we should run away. But a lot of us do this in intimacy or relationships. I feel like I've done this in the past.

Yeah.

Where we know we shouldn't be in this relationship.

Uh huh.

We should get out. Or we start dating someone we know. Like, oh, there's some red flags or some signs that things aren't matching. Right, right. How can we tell either the signs or the flags when we're dating someone? That we should really take this a lot slower.

Yeah. Can you feel it? You're doing like, you're doing this triangle.

Triangle.

Right.

Clenching.

Yeah, yeah. That's the fear. That's the. Oh crap. Because you. Cause you know what that feels like and you.

So is that more our reaction to someone or watching their facial expression do that? Like if we're.

Yeah, you're doing it right now as you're, as you're thinking about something that's worrying, that's concerning. And you're like. And then that was the discomfort. Right? They're like, yeah, I remember what that felt like. That's uncomfortable. That's not safe. That's the. And so your face is live narrating your words and it's matching perfectly. Right. So your words and your facial expressions match perfectly.

But if someone's going out on a date or they're dating someone or they're in a relationship and they're like, huh? How do they really know the difference between a potential narcissist or a sociopath or someone who's out of alignment versus someone that could be a healthy conscious relationship for them.

So first of all, it's a great question. And we know in our gut, I mean, I always point to my solar plexus because that's where I feel it. I always feel like this little almost sting right there. We know in our gut, and the problem for so many of us, especially those of us who've experienced trauma in our childhoods, is that our pain was intentionally or sometimes not intentionally dismissed. And we have been taught that our emotions aren't real and we can control everything. And really we have this great security system in our bodies that does exactly what you're talking about that tells us danger. Danger. Alert. Alert. And what I am trying to do is get this information out into the public so that people who are young are able to make safe and healthy decisions about who to align with romantically, professionally, and even when it comes to friendships. So if you and I are going on a date and say you're somebody who really doesn't wish me well, I can.

Or I'm trying to get something out of you. I don't have good intentions.

You don't care about my feelings. You don't care about my emotions. Maybe you're attracted to me. But we're looking for attraction and emotional attachment. Most of us, Most of us who want a real relationship, we want those two things. We want the person to be attracted to us, and we want the person to be emotionally attached to us.

Yeah. Or emotionally committed or.

Yeah, right. To care about our feelings at the very deepest of levels.

But how do you know? Because there's probably some, either women or men who are, like, going on dates that can act like they care, but they really just want the money or they really just want the sex, or they really just want to use them in some way for their benefit.

Right. So they're saying the right words. And generally for most of us, and, you know, it varies from person to person, but most of us feel something in our gut. Now, what I'm teaching is the facial expressions so that you can see and test and get that instant feedback before you're emotionally attached. Because most of us, six months down the line, we'll say about all that creepy boss or the relationship where it turns out, you know, she just wanted me for my money or he just wanted me for sex, or vice versa. Right. That we know it. But if we can see the science in it immediately, we're unlikely to attach ourselves. We see the red. So what that does is it strengthens their gut. So for my children, for example, if they said to somebody, hey, do you want to come over? And that person did that. No expression. They knew the person didn't want to come, but they didn't know why. Or again, if they're saying something nice and complimentary but showing the no face, they don't believe it. They're not by. They're not believing their body is saying, no, no, no, no, I don't actually believe this. With romance and emotional attachment in particular, we're looking for that. That kindness in the chin that you show so often. Yeah.

The chin is a good indicator.

Our achy breaky heart Is on our chin.

Really?

So if I tell you something that's emotionally, physically, or financially painful for me in general, you'll puck. You know, and just me saying that right now, you. This. You're like, oh, that's a lot. Right. She's going to be watching me to see how I respond, which is totally normal, too. That fits. But if I were talking to you about a child with a learning disability or a family member that was going through health problems or something, you just. Your little chin is working the whole time because your heart is.

I'm connected.

You're connected. And so if we're in a relationship or starting a relationship with somebody and we're starting to show our own vulnerability, they should be mirroring that vulnerability in the chin.

It's not as much the eyes. It's more the chin.

No, that's all of our vulnerability. So vulnerability is a piece of sadness. It's a piece of empathy, and it's a piece of love.

Right. Wow, that's beautiful.

Yeah, it is. It's right on our chin. So I describe it in my book. You know, our chin is usually like a smooth grape, and then when we pucker it, we turn that grape into a raisin.

Right. You can see a bunch of dimples in there, I guess. Right.

Wow.

That's a good sign.

That's a good sign.

And you can't really fake that, can you? No, it's hard to, I guess.

I mean, nobody knows now. We'll see if the people all over the world start faking it.

Unless you're, like, trained sociopath, I guess, and you're just, like, trying to do that.

The sociopaths never show it. They never pucker.

They never do.

They almost never do.

They don't show that compassion because they don't have it.

They don't have it unless it's related to themselves. Themselves getting hurt. And then they show it because they're compassionate towards their own feelings.

How can you know if someone has narcissistic tendencies, if you're going on a date or if you've been in a relationship with them for a long time?

Because they don't show me any kindness.

They don't show kindness.

They don't care when I get hurt, regardless of how I get hurt or regardless of how somebody else gets hurt. They don't show that. Really? They don't? No.

They care more about themselves or they just. They just don't.

But I know narcissists that will describe something that they've been through that's painful. And their chin will be working overtime.

But for. For someone else, they probably won't have that.

No. Because they don't care.

But how are they so good, I guess, at captivating you to love them?

One, they. They tend to. Over the. Well, the narcissists in my life tend to overdo the eye contact.

So they're very present and connected.

Yes. The gaze is long. And then the other thing is that they've learned almost mathematically which phrases, which behaviors work. So I had somebody in my life. I won't mention who it is, but it's a family member of mine that I just lost it on him. We were living in Hong Kong, and he was yelling at a taxi driver. And we got out of the car, and the taxi driver had made a wrong turn, even though the person that I was with had said, turn to the right. The episode. You made a mistake. And he just lost it on this taxi driver. And I was really angry afterwards. I said, do you understand that this is somebody who's trying to support his family, working really long hours? This is a decent human making an honorable living, working hard, and probably has a lot of people depending on them. And you don't get to yell at somebody for making a mistake. We all make mistakes. Next night, we were out, and this person was trying to pick up girls, puffed out his chest and said, I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi drivers.

No. Wow. The next day, jeez.

I was like, this is the weirdest, surreal experience. But it was. It really clicked for me, this narcissistic behavior. And I knew that this was a narcissist, this idea of, oh, there's a puzzle piece and a tool that I can use to impress other people. And it was just so artificial and strange. But people find a way to get their needs met. We humans tend to be really good at that. And if something works for us, will we repeat that? We do more of that?

Yeah, we kind of store that in our brain. This worked before. So let me keep doing this thing.

That whole love bombing and the whole, like, I will tell you, and the narcissists that have ever tried to date me, I call them parrots. They try to figure out what is your thing. So I had a guy not that long ago, I've actually written about it, that was telling me, you know, I've been obsessed with micro expressions for years, because if you can't really connect with people, I mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of times, and he was just pulling all this stuff. And I was lonely and newly divorced and I almost fell for it, you know, even with my stuff. Because he was so good at the.

Speaking to your heart into like your things.

Well, and he wasn't doing it face to face. He was doing it via text. And I kept saying, well, let's just jump on a phone call. No, no, no. Didn't want to even jump on the phone call because he knows that I can do more stuff. Wow.

No. FaceTime. Yeah, FaceTime.

Didn't want to do the FaceTime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So can you personally tell the difference between someone who's maybe a psychopath, a narcissist and a genius? Can you tell the difference based on and other tendencies of all three? I guess.

That'S a really good question. You can be a genius and also be kind, right? That doesn't necessarily. You can be a narcissist and a genius for sure, but the genius isn't necessarily overlapping the other ones. The. There are a couple pieces that I look for. I look for what my kids call crazy eyes. So remember I talked about we pull our upper eyelids way back. You know, we do this right. So that's a piece of fear. So if you. If I walk into a room and I see somebody, you know, maybe standing with a gun behind you or like pulling out a. In my upper eyelids are going to. Gonna pull way back. That fits, right? If I'm in a scary situation, something scares me or somebody jumps out or there's a loud noise, I'm going to pull my upper eyelids back and. And that.

Like crazy eyes.

Yeah. Okay. But that matches. But we don't ever in fear. The only time we will pull up our eyelids back and hold them. Rollercoaster, haunted house, you know, terror, loud noise. We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back, except when we're nuts.

When you're a psychopath, you just like that Ted Bundy all the time.

Hitler.

Really?

I'm gonna get in so much trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. See, your face immediately goes to like. There's a lot of people in the public eye. The school shooters. If you look at the pictures of.

Them, they have their eyes like that a lot.

They always like pull. They're showing their sclera. And there's something about mental instability and volatility and I'm not safe that. And I don't know what it is. And I've done a lot of research, just my own private research on that. But. But I almost always find that somebody who's committed A heinous crime and a really violent crime. They're all almost always, like, I don't know, 20, 30% of their pictures that you can find up on the blind where they're. Where they're horrible. Holding that.

That's interesting.

Okay, so watch the facial expression of fear. The full facial expression of fear. And it, like, makes me shiver. Right. Watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.

That is weird.

It's super creepy. And it, like, sends all these itchy signals to my brain, but it's. It's out of context. It doesn't match. And your whole body, your whole nervous system knows that when you see it. When I give you the vocabulary to pull this and dissect it, you're going, oh, my God, I just talked about this thing. And that person showed crazy eyes. Like, almost like they were. There's horror and arousal at the same. There should not. That's the Joker's face from Batman. The arousal in the horror. The joy in the horror. That's terrible.

The joy in the horror.

Right?

That's something to watch out for.

That is something to watch out for.

Now, are people, you know, I guess, are psychopaths. Are they more like that all the time, or is that only sometimes?

She seemed to show it a lot.

Right, right.

And I don't really. It's almost like I'm not all the way to the finish line with that research.

I just know something seems inauthentic, though.

Something's inauthentic. And you can have somebody who is not a bad person, but who is going through a period of severe trauma and mental instability, also have that sort of constant deer in the headlight look. So you have to be careful. All of these facial expressions, you have to put them in context.

You need context.

And it's not like you see this in somebody. They're automatically a bad or a dangerous person. But they are more likely, in my experience, to be violent against others or themselves. You sometimes see that facial expression before somebody takes their own knife. Yeah.

Wow. Are you ready to finally hit your target? Nutrient levels every day? Meet Groons. The daily snack pack of gummies isn't just a multivitamin. It's not just a green gummy, and it's not just a prebiotic. It's all of that rolled into one and then some at a fraction of the price. And they taste great. Here's what makes them stand out. While most multivitamins only cover 7 to 9 vitamins, groons bring together over 20 vitamins and minerals, plus more than 60 nutrient dense whole food ingredients. And those ingredients are known to support things like gut, health, energy, immunity, recovery, cognition, and even beauty. Because it's in gummy form, your body has an easier time absorbing it. Also, we have packs in our studio and, and they've been a game changer for everyone in the studio. We've run out so quickly. No powders, no handfuls of pills, just a pack of tasty gummies. And I'm fueling my body with the nutrients it needs. Use Code greatness at Groons Co to save up to 52% off your first order. That's code greatness at Gruns Co for up to 52% off. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the holidays can feel a lot like balancing family expectations, travel, work, and trying to make everything perfect. It's easy to forget to take care of yourself in the middle of it all. I've been there and what I've learned is that when you don't make space to slow down, it's hard to actually enjoy the moments that matter Most. That's why BetterHelp is encouraging you to rewrite your traditions this season by making time for you. Incorporating therapy into your routine can help you pause, reflect, stay grounded during what can be joyful but sometimes hectic or even lonely time of the year. The holidays look different for everyone. Maybe it's baking your great aunt sweet potato pie or maybe it's starting something new like a quiet night with friends. Therapy can be one of those new traditions, too. Better help matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime this December. Start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off@betterhelp.com Lewis that's betterhelp.com Lewis so there's something, there's some.

You know, serious emotional health issue with.

A, with a psychopath, essentially. Yeah.

Yeah. And. Yeah.

And what's the difference between spotting, I guess, a narcissist and a genius? And a genius who's actually kind and has good intentions versus a narcissist who is only out for them.

So that's a really good question. And I, I'm sort of hesitant because I haven't really thought about it enough. Again, with somebody that doesn't have empathy, that's a problem. Now, I work with a lot of people on the spectrum, a lot of people with autism, and there's this.

They may not Express themselves with empathy as much.

Really misunderstood piece. I have people in my life who have autism and have beautiful empathy. And the idea that you can, that you don't have empathy, that's crazy.

It's all empathy.

They might not. Well, and it's a tendency to be overloaded with information. The eye contact becomes overstimulated. I want to be careful because I'm not an expert, but from my own experience, they may not recognize the facial expressions. They may not have what I call situational empathy, which is also in psychology, they call it theory of mind, which is the ability to understand if this person's in this situation, here's how they would feel.

I see what you're saying, but if.

You have a conversation on a deeper level and you say, this is how I feel and this is why the people in my life with autism have immense amounts of empathy and kindness and okay, well then how can I help? And I work a lot with kids or have worked in the past. I don't do it as much right now. And my autistic clients are my best clients. Really. They are the ones. Because if I have an autistic client that is good at pattern recognition and those are generally the ones that I would take on as clients because those are the ones that I can be most helpful to. They don't do what neurotypicals do, which is this. You should be feeling this in this situation. They just look at the actual facial expressions. This is what you're feeling. So I start with showing pictures and explanation. And I sometimes will have people like color in the facial expressions. Where on the face do you see this expression? And so, for example, I had an 8 year old that I was training and then once we get past the still pictures, we go to videos so they can see it really, because you don't really know micro expressions until you can see it live. And I would always train the parents at the same time and I'd show a video clip, freeze it, and the parents would say, well, this person's feeling this emotion. And the child would say, nope, it's this expression. And I would say, child's right.

Oh, wow.

Because the parents were so into. Well, but in this context they should be feeling this. And that would influence their interpretation.

Interesting. Just because you should be doesn't mean you are feeling something.

Right? And my autistic clients tend to be really, really good at that. It's all pattern recognition. And so they'd say, but you know, she's feeling joy because the smile bags are here. She's feeling the no face disgust because there's nasal shadows or you got the rectangle of fear, right? No, they're feeling empathy or vulnerability because the chins are raising. Easy peasy.

If you're looking for a business partner or you're looking to hire someone for an opportunity or a job or a contract and you want to set yourself up for the best chance of success with the partnership, what are a few questions you could ask someone to see their responses and see if it'll at least align with okay, I'm setting myself up for success. Maybe this person won't work out in this career or this job or this business partnership, but I have good enough information where I feel like they're not going to try to screw me over. And they want that and they want the best in this relationship as well. What's a question or two you could ask to evoke a facial expression to see whether or not. Okay, we're in alignment.

Right. So obviously stay away from, in general, the yes or no questions. The yes or no questions can be used to follow up.

Okay, so you could say it, but then follow up with something.

But I would generally ask open ended questions and I would ask things like, do you know, tell me a little bit about why you want this role or why you want to work with me, why you want to work with this business. And then watch to see that this person is one. I mean, they have to give interesting answers, right? It has to. The answer itself needs to be something that is motivating for me or feels like this person's a good fit. Like they have the skills and they have the desire. But I am watching. If they match their facial expressions, match.

The words, a lot of people can say, oh, you know, all the exciting things of why they want to be a partner or work at the job or whatever it might be, but their face isn't matching the words, then you can tell something's off. Yeah.

So this is suppression. We make that bubble. It's almost like, you know, the chewing, the people who do the chewing tobacco. So sometimes they take it out, right? Exactly. They stuff it in the bottom. So sometimes they put it up top. But, but it's almost a Nordic country boy like chewing tobacco thing. And it's, it's not even a micro expression, but it's this, this it. Because it takes so many muscles to make that. Barack Obama, king of suppression, makes that face all the time. It's I'm holding back. Doesn't he?

Once he hold back on you, think how he truly feels or how he.

Truly feels, or this is, you know, this information is not gonna help or this is not gonna be received well. I mean, you can imagine self control is a good quality in a leader, right?

But he's saying, you know, there's something he's not happy with.

Right. He's got, he wants to say it's the grown up version of this.

He wants to say something. He's biting our tongue, but he's being mindful of that. Okay. I might hurt myself if I say how truth, right.

Also could be simply if we're in a meeting and the meeting's going over and some subject is brought up and I'm like, oh, I have so many thoughts about this, but I'm not, not right now. So it's just, you're itching to say it. So that holding back is such a useful thing to see in board meetings, in any conversation, you know, so if I see somebody holding back on what they really feel, that would be a warning for me. In a one to one interview, if we're in a big setting, I would pull that person aside afterwards because likely they're not saying it because it doesn't. It's not something they want to say out loud in front of those specific people or in a group setting, but the person will almost always spill.

Interesting. So it's just, it's information telling you, hey, there's something underneath this expression, let's ask more, let's ask more.

But I would, I would just generally, the, the more you know about micro expressions, the more it gives you the underlying emotion of what's going on. And I think as humans, we like to even tell ourselves that I'm not letting my emotions steer, I'm making rational decisions. But how many business decisions are made on. I want this. Okay. And it makes sense because A, B and C and D. Sure, yeah, sure. I'm going to justify hiring this person because I really want to. But the micro expressions will give us that additional layer of seeing the red flag and getting the science to the red flag. It makes it much better, safer, because we, if we see the red flag and we can dissect why we see the red flag, we're going, I'm not going to invest in this relationship. I'm going to stop myself before I get emotionally or financially.

Yeah. Before there's some bigger commitment or something. This is fascinating. So, you know, you've been, how long have you been doing this work and coaching and consulting with, you know, Fortune 500 executives and leaders?

Since I was 28 and start well.

Five years in or.

Yeah, right. That's where you do the selfie thing with your nose, which is the no face. But also like the tricky business. So the wrinkle is the tricky business. That's your mischief. That's cute. Yeah, it's about five years. So no. I started off with investment banking in Hong Kong and then I did management consulting in Sweden and then when we moved I got married, moved to Singapore. I lived in a lot of other places too, across Europe, China.

Many years you've been doing Sweden?

Many, many years. I really started when I was in Sweden. I was the only person in the company, in the management consultant that had English as my mother tongue. And so I found I could hustle and wheel and deal by. You were generally trained in one thing. Like you were trained in strategy or back in the day we called strategic IT or communications or change management or market. And I wanted to do everything because I've got a brain similar to yours which is like, what can I learn from this? What can I learn from this? What can you teach me? What about you? What can you teach me? What can I offer you in exchange? I like that. Reciprocity.

Yes.

So I started going around door to door in this 150 person consultancy saying, can I be on your project? You've got a really good thing. Back in the day before it was Sony Ericsson and it was only Ericsson or it was, you know, Volvo. We worked with Volvo. And I would say if you let me in on your project, I'll write all your deliverables in English. Will you speak them too? Yes, I will present for you. Because it was at that stage where all the Swedish companies were merging with other companies and they were going over to English being the corporate language. Language. And the people that were 10, 20 years older than me at the time weren't particularly comfortable. They spoke English, but it was, it was awkward and they didn't want to do all the like the spelling mistakes and all that.

So you've been doing it for a while though?

I've been doing it for a long time.

What is the, the main thing that extremely powerful leaders want to learn from you? What is it that they're really trying to get and what questions do they ask you to develop more tools? You don't have to say their names.

You can see my suppression and my mischief where I'm like, how honest am I going to be?

Because they hire you because they want, it sounds like, to have more power, to have more influence, to have more leadership abilities to have.

They hire me with the idea that they can. That I will help them see under the surface so that they, you know, mostly.

So give them more success.

Yes. And protection.

Right? Protection, success, growth.

What really happens is that because, you know, think about it like, you hire more me, and they bring me. And usually it's just straight on reputation. Somebody from their young president's organization, or you gotta hire Tiger 21 or some organization that they're a member in, or some friend has said she can change lives. And they bring me in not really knowing what to expect and feeling really uncomfortable. Because you get to.

Because you're reading them, right?

I'm reading them. Well, you get to the top of the pyramid, and part of getting to the top of the pyramid is faking it till you make it. Nobody's good at everything. So they've gotten really good at presenting this polished, poised, like, yes, yes, yes. And then figuring it out behind the scenes. Like, I know all about that. And then, God, where's my Google? Right? And so bringing somebody in who can see everything, it's like being naked, you know, it's like, I don't want people to see me naked. Right. You're vulnerable. And so the initial piece is almost always this, oh, crap. Like, this is really. And I will often, if it's somebody that's powerful that I think can take it, I will live, narrate their face. And they'll say, well, how much do you really see? And I said, well, you just showed fear, and then you just swallowed because I made you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable. And now you're wrinkling your nose and a little bit of discomfort. And now you really realize I'm reading you. So you're pulling your upper eyelids back and in fear, but your cheeks are. Your inforbital triangles are rising because you're like, this is the best thing ever. And they're like, holy crap, you can see into my soul. And I go, yeah, but, you know, it's fine. Same as everybody else. We're all the same.

So they want to feel, like, protected and safe. Like, okay, I want to make sure that my business or my organization is being taken care of. Do you feel like they care more about that or they care more about influence, power, and making anymore?

It's both. I mean, the number of times I will be on the stage doing a keynote and I'll get pulled aside as soon as I go off, you know, I need to talk to you in private or. And. And it depends on the kind of Business. If it's a family business, if it's a family office, it can be something like, I don't trust my partner, my cousin, my whatever. I think there's something off. And I. I can see the facial expressions. I know this person does that. I think they're stealing money. I think they're doing this. It can be any of the above. They don't generally know exactly what they need from me.

They don't know what they want.

They don't know what they want. And the person recommending me is often not telling them exactly what I did for them. So it's sort of this vague kind of thing. And they pull me in and I say, okay, so now that we've got this established that you're lonely, that you're struggling, that you're not good at all the things that you need to project that you're good at, what are your real problems? And they go, holy, Actually, I'm dealing with this. And they'll tell me the real stuff. And the reason I've been good at the strategic advisory and the coaching is because people actually come to me with their real problems that they don't tell anybody else.

They're honest with you. They have to be, I guess, right?

And most business problems are people problems on one level or another. It could be with their board. It could be with their employees. It could be that they can't manage to connect with the people that they need to connect with. It could be that they don't trust the people that they need to trust. It could be simply that they don't have anybody to ask advice to. Because think about it. If you're the CEO, you can't go to your board and say, with this merger, I have no idea what I'm doing. You can't tell your employees that you're over your skis. Your spouse is usually fed up. Because if you're a CEO, you're generally prioritizing work. And so they may not be an expert in your business, or they may simply just not care anymore. So to have somebody who's kind of seen it all in terms of business, but also, I think they take off their armor with me and just say, this is really what I'm dealing with. Okay, fine, let me just tell you.

What would you say then are the three biggest problems of highly successful, powerful leaders?

I think one of the biggest problems that I see is that when you're really powerful, everybody says yes to you and nobody calls you out on your. And so you get deeper and deeper into being disconnected from your organization. You don't really know what's going on. You may have some toxic employees that are absolutely poisoning the water. And you don't see it because people aren't telling you. So that's one for sure. I think in general, it's really, really hard to delegate well, and that in a smaller company, you can kind of manage to be juggling and holding all the balls in the air. And as you, as you grow, you just can't. And figuring out who you can trust and getting comfortable with letting other people make mistakes. And then the third one would really be modeling leadership. I think very few people, the personalities that tend to rise in an organization. Leadership is parenting. It's all the same. And so if you're not able to model good behavior and the behavior that you want to trickle down in the organization, that can become very problematic. Interesting, because the skills that got you to the top, which are kind of elbows out, don't necessarily make you a good leader when you get there.

How many of the people that you've worked with in the past, percentage wise, do you feel like are great leaders or they're struggling to be a great leader? Like, what's the percentage?

What was it the most? I mean, all humans are struggling, you know, and we're good at different things. And I think that we need to give ourselves more grace. That it is okay that the best leaders I know are very vocal about the things they're not good at. And I do have some clients that are really, you know, when I see them get up and talk, I. I feel this sense of warmth and pride because they'll say, okay, I'm not good at this, but that's why I have these people.

Right.

I mean, that's.

It's interesting. You could be extremely successful in a business and not be a great leader. I mean, it's like Steve Jobs went through different phases where he was talked about as like this horrible leader in terms of his teams, like feared him or didn't like him or he was aggressive or whatever, but he was able to build a massive business also. So it's just. It's figuring out. And then. And then it sounds like eventually he evolved and transformed into a better, you know, human leader of connection and empathy and kindness. But you can still be successful and essentially a bad leader. It sounds like you just might have be suffering more.

Well, the other thing is that we're just flawed humans and we're uneven. And I mean, you've talked about this in your books, and I Talk about it. I'm very open with being dyslexic. I mean, I'm really very dyslexic.

Yeah, me too.

And once I started learning different languages, like, all bets are off. All bets. I mean, my.

Has it been easy to learn other language being dyslexic? Because for me, I've struggled, so I have. And I think it's because I can't read from a book and, like, remember.

Well, that's why I put in pictures for you.

That's good. Yeah, but I mean, especially a different language. I mean, like, learning Spanish from a book doesn't work for me.

So this is the. I mean, I think they thought I was nuts because I was telling my editor, her name is Sarah. She's amazing. She's held my hand through this entire process, and she's my editor and my illustrator, and she did the font, and she did. And she's the one who has said, you know, just do the big and the hard and do it scared.

That's beautiful.

And jump. And so I. She said, I kind of thought it was nuts when you said, I want the illustrations, I want the doodles. And I said, I'm dyslexic. I need to pause, and I want the dessert afterwards. So, you know, I want the poem, and then I want the picture that you can kind of pause. And I need lots of space between the lines, and I need different fonts so that my brain can kind of chill, read it. And.

Yeah, right.

And I. There's. I can follow the lines. And so I think that we give more credibility when we say, this is what I'm good at and this is what I suck at, and people go, oh, and this is what you do, right? You. You show your vulnerability. You jump. There's a piece that talks about, you know, you jump into the cold water first, then you turn around, give them a big grin, and say, you want to come?

Right.

How about now?

Yeah. It's kind of like if you 8 mile yourself consistently by talking about, you know, all your faults or mistakes or, I guess, inadequacies, then people trust you more also. It's like, okay, as opposed to saying, I have it all figured out, and it's saying, I'm on this journey and here's my vision and here's what we're creating. But I, you know, I still need a lot to learn on these different areas, and I still need support. I feel like people will trust you more, right? Yeah. A lot of support. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's this piece Of. I don't know. When we're young, some of us think that if. If I'm polished and poised and plastic and I'm perfect, then I will be left. That's not love.

Wow. What is that?

No, that's just. That's just a Barbie doll. You know, that's just nothing. So if. If. If you create this image of yourself that's super, super fancy, and everybody goes, oh, my God, he's so handsome. He's so smart. He's all these things, but that doesn't feel authentic to you, and I love you for that piece. That love isn't satisfying on any level. But if you show me who you really are, and you're dorky and sweet and vulnerable and smart in very interesting ways and clueless in others, we're good, baby. Like, we are good. And then I love you for that person. You feel full and happy and adored and, oh, my gosh, and I'm so safe and I'm comfortable with Annie, and she sees me and she loves me, and I feel love for her back. And that's beautiful and that's real and that's into the soul. But if somebody really loves you, if I come and see you when you're lying in bed and you're sick in the hospital and your face is yellow and you have circles under your eyes, and I hold your hand and I love your soul, I don't care what you look like. If I love you, that doesn't matter. But our connection and our trust and your ability to see me and my ability to see you, that's what real love is. If we're pretending to be somebody else, we never get fulfilled from love. The holidays are back at Starbucks, so share the season with a peppermint mocha, Starbucks signature espresso, velvety mocha and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

A warm dinner, a full table, a peace of mind for every family. That's the holiday we all wish for. The Feeding America Network helps make it possible not just for one family, but for communities everywhere. Because when we act together, hope grows. Give now, and your impact may be doubled. Visit feedingamerica.org holiday that's true.

You know, we don't love a child because they're clever and they say the right thing. We just love them because we love them. We love their sweet little souls.

You know, they're not communicating to us perfectly. They're, you know, they're crying, they're screaming, they're joyful. They're a range of emotions and we just love that. Yeah, it may be frustrating at times.

But we love them well and that's real. And the frustration is, is, is real too. And it's in the conflict that we learn to, to know each other. It's a Swedish saying which is in the conflict. It's in the conflict that we learn to know each other. And I love just the way, without over translating it. It's when we fight and we resolve and we understand, okay, you feel differently, you express yourself differently and you're showing me what you really. That's real. And we can't have a real deep connection if we're not willing to disagree and we're not willing to explain why we disagree. We can't learn from each other. And so I'm only interested and I, you know, this, this idea of publishing my diary is insane. But I don't care because I don't want to be loved for anybody other than who I am. It's not real otherwise.

Yeah, it's beautiful. As a human lie detector and able to spot lies and spot the tells. If someone has no clue of how to tap into facial expression, reading facial expression, or maybe they're not going to go through the entire book at some point. And you could give people three keys to, I guess, spotting a lie or a liar. What would those things be?

Watch for the bunny rabbit nose. Right. If they're saying a positive and they're doing the negative bunny, the bad bunny.

That'S a potential liar.

That's a liar. That should be. I don't like this. That makes me angry. Okay, fine. If you're saying something negative and you're doing that, that's a problem. That should match a negative sentence. Right? So we're talking about dispotting a liar.

Yeah. If someone's lying. If someone's lying to you, how can you tell?

Going to body language, There's a couple things. If you're in Western society, this means yes and this means no. So saying, I did not sleep with that lady. That's a problem. A no with a not now. If you go to Southeast Asia, if you go to India, there's lots of different head movements side to side. There's lots of side to side. I don't know all of them. I know some of them. But in Europe, in the us, Mexico, Canada, this is yes and this is no. And our bodies will leak that all the time. And my son said to me the other day, when to go out with some Friends over the weekend. And I said, maybe. And he goes, thanks. And I said. I just said maybe. And he goes, yeah. But when you say maybe and you nod, it means you're gonna say yes. And when you say maybe and you shake your head, you're gonna say no. So I look for that tell. That's a really, really concrete tell.

Okay.

That's not micro expressions. It's body language. But it's pretty spot on. And it is culturally adjusted because this doesn't mean yes in every culture. And then I would watch for the weird words in the sentence, like, what so going again. So adding qualifiers. I had a guy who tell me, I'm a mostly good guy. I was like, dude, you are not a good guy. You couldn't even.

This is not a good guy.

I'm saying it. He added the word mostly. And first of all, most. Most guys won't say, I'm a good guy. Like, why are you trying to convince me that you're a good guy? That's weird. But if there's any extra words that just feel unnatural. So those are qualifiers. And then distancing language. I did not have relations with that woman. With somebody that you know well. Or somebody who calls their. Their. Their wife. The wife. That's a problem that shows weird intentions with the wife.

As opposed to my wife.

Yeah. Or Cindy or Sarah. Are.

You're disconnecting it a little bit farther.

Than the relationship distancing language.

Interesting. Wow. So being aware of that and be like, okay, there's something underneath that.

So the biggest thing that I would say is if you feel like something's off, whether or not your brain has the vocabulary and the science to tell you why your brain's speaking the truth. We know it.

Do men lie differently than women?

So I have friends that will lie to themselves, and I feel like a lot of the men in my life will lie to themselves.

The men will lie to themselves.

Yeah.

How. So what's.

I'm comfortable with this. I can absolutely do this. And I'm like, oh, honey, do you need a hug?

Wow. And what will women do?

I think we're too hard on ourselves. I think. I mean, I think women and men are both too hard on ourselves. But men manifested in just kind of plowing through and not pausing to feel the emotions, because that, as you know. You so know, as we've been trained, especially in the US that vulnerability is weakness, and you can't. Intimacy. There is no intimacy without vulnerability. It just doesn't even exist. So we have to be our True selves. And we have to feel like that's okay and that's how we feel loved. If we're going to just show this polished and poise, we're never going to feel filled. So women tend to be too negative on themselves and put other people's needs first in a way that's self deprecating and sometimes even to the point where it's dangerous to themselves. If we're good at loving ourselves and caring for ourselves, then we have. Our batteries are filled so we have something to offer.

I'm so glad you're putting this book out there and this work out there. Diary of a Human Lie Detector. Facial Expressions in Love, Lust and Lies. Make sure you guys get a copy of this. Also there's a the Facial Expression glossary which is in the back of this book essentially as well. We'll have both of those linked up there. This is really powerful. This gives you information and intel to understand if you are safe in relationships or you know, if you're in a good position at your work, if you are surrounded by good friends who are well intended.

Yes.

You know, teaching your kids these things, these tools are extremely powerful. So I'm really grateful that you're creating this and finally revealing this to the world. So I want to acknowledge you, Annie, for. For your work over the last, I don't know how long it's been, but a long time of doing this work and now sharing it with the masses. Where it was once for just, you know, powerful people that were paying you a lot, now you're sharing this to so many people and it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you for this work. I'm very grateful for you. I have a couple final questions for you, Annie. This one is a hypothetical question. It's called three Truths. So imagine speaking of the lie detection, but imagine you get to live as long as you want in this life hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want and create the life of your dreams from this moment moving forward. But for whatever reason, all of your work and your information, this book, this conversation and anything you create, we don't have access to. After you pass, after your last day, it goes with you to wherever the next place is for you. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. Three lessons to the world. And this is all we would have to remember you by. What would those three truths be for you?

So that's really interesting because the reason I finally put this book out was that I realized I'M mortal, and do I. Do I die with it? Do I die with the things that only I know? And the answer is no. This book is really a love letter to my children's friends. I've taught my children everything that they need to know. But their friends come over and they say, annie, Annie, teach us one thing. Teach us one thing. So this is everything. This is all the things. And so I really want people to learn the facial expressions so that they can recognize truth, so they can make safe decisions about their lives. But the really important thing is that when we understand facial expressions, we increase our ability to listen, and we really listen to each other. We can love each other well. And so one of the truths would definitely be that almost everybody is struggling. Be kind. Because that little. As soon as I said struggle, you puck your little chin because you know that's true, right? You know that you've struggled. You know that your loved ones struggle. And all the people that you talk to are because you show your vulnerability, they will tell you about their struggles. Be authentic and be true, because that's the only hope any of us ever really have of loving well and being loved. And then. But this other piece, I think neurodiversity is a beautiful thing. We humans like to think it makes us feel comfortable and safe to think that everybody's wired the same way we are. And when we really listen to other people, we understand that we're all wired a little bit differently. Our brains are funky and nobody's good at everything. We're a little wonky as humans. And it goes back to this pretending like there's no reason to pretend that we're all good at the same things. We build teams, we build tribes, we build families on the idea that we're good at different things and we have different things to contribute. We should be grateful for that and we should honor it in each other and we should love each other for our differences, and that's a good thing.

That's beautiful. Yeah.

Was that three?

That's three. Yeah, I think that was three again. The book, Diary of a human lie Detector. Make sure you guys grab a copy, get one for a friend. We'll have everything linked up with your website where they can connect with you, social media, and all those different things. I've got one final question, though, Curious. What is your definition of greatness?

To love well and to be well loved. That's it.

Thanks so much, Hannah. Appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcast. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter and now it's time to go out there and do something great.

They say if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. At Amica Insurance, we're built for our customers and prioritize your needs. Call 877-41-America for a free coverage review.

For delicious meals, you could go out to eat or you could just make a Marie Callender's meal. Marie Callender's classic Chicken Parmigiano bowl is so good. It has marinara sauce that's made from scratch and creamy mozzarella cheese over pasta. It's delicious with no artificial flavors, colors or preservatives and 30 grams of protein. You can find it in the frozen aisle. Marie Callender's what having it all tastes like.