6. Saundra Davis - Executive Director, Sage Financial Solutions

Foreign.

Welcome to the Wealth Gap warriors podcast where we dive deep into the pressing issue of wealth inequality in communities of color, cultural money beliefs, and personal finance. Some of our families are struggling. Even people are actually homeless. Join us as we interview inspiring individuals and organizations across the United States who are dedicated to eradicating this disparity through their creative solutions and innovative approaches.

Together, let's explore how we can build a more equitable society for all. Here's your host, Luis Barajas. Let's get into it.

Hey, everybody. Today on Wealth Gap warriors, we have my friend, my confidant, my everything, my sister from another, Mr. Sandra Davis. Let me just give you a quick little background. I'll read you something and then she'll tell you everything she's doing. So she's awesome. Sandra Davis is a highly respected financial planner, educated educator, and coach who's dedicated her career to helping people achieve financial stability and prosperity. Her framework, the Continuum of Financial well Being, is a model to ensure that all people, regardless of their income or wealth, have access to competent and ethical personal financial finance support. Through her training programs and Financial Fitness Coach certification, Sandra has trained more than 2,000 professionals and has helped countless people develop healthy financial habits, navigate complex financial decisions, and achieve their financial goals. Sandra's called the Financial Coaches Coach. Sandra, thank you so much for being with us today. I have been looking forward to this. You changed our podcast meeting a couple of times and I was like, oh my God, is she going to come on our podcast or not? Because I think you are the most awesome person in the world. I love you to death and thank you for being here.

I am so glad, you know, I wouldn't miss this. You are my. You know, I don't think you really remember what it meant to me to walk into that conference center in Los Angeles as a brand new person in this field and thinking I was the only person who at that time who cared about in the financial, in the financial planning profession, right? I knew about all the nonprofit agencies, but like I walked into that room and watching you in front of a standing room only crowd talking to the same kind of audience that I was trying to serve and everyone else besides you telling me you'll never make a living doing financial planning for poor people. I mean, you're the only person who said to me, do what you have to do, you know, so of course I was going to be on your podcast. But you know, man, look, this, this month is my birthday month and I take the month off. So that's why we have such A hard time scheduling.

That's amazing. Yeah.

If I didn't take this month off, Louis, it'd be crazy. I have to do this every year for myself.

Yeah, this is amazing. We've been at it for a long time. And the purpose of this podcast is to really highlight people across the country who have done wonderful things. I've been doing this for 35 years, and I know who the real people out there who are doing it for purpose and not just to, you know, get on TV or become famous. This is for the. The. The real deal stuff. Right. But what I would love for you to share what we're having people on our podcast share is the context. Give us context as to why, you know, let's just say why when you came to see me, what rang true for you? Why you chose this profession? There's so many questions I want to ask you. Like, for example, you know, why not financial planning? Why'd you go to financial coaching? That.

That.

We'll ask you later, but give me context to what created Sondra Davis to focus her whole life on helping really kind of underserved or people who need access to wealth planning.

Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is I had no idea what financial planning was, you know, so I spent my young years in the military. I spent my young years in a family that really didn't have a sense of saving, preparing for, you know, long term. My mom was a maid for wealthy family. She also worked in their. In their store. And so she would work often, like two, three jobs and then spend everything she made, you know, and she came from a family of 12, you know, deep in poverty. And so I think her experience really became kind of a legacy burden, if you will. Like, I. You know, although she was always hopeful, she was always positive, she was never someone who didn't believe things would get better. But the hustle was how she survived, you know, and she was just a genius entrepreneur.

And so when I was growing up, it didn't. I didn't learn anything about saving. I didn't know anything about money. We had to sell our home when I was 15. So I went from living a very stable and comfortable life to literally being a homeless teenager. And I took my GED, joined the Navy at 17. So my life of service started with Gladys Davis, who was a woman of service. Right. So she. Yes, it was always a hustle, but it was always a hustle in favor of service. So she served, you know, in the church. She served it just in her community. She was like, woman of the year at a local elementary school. And so I was raised to be of service, which was fine, you know, which was fine. The rub for me was that I was watching people who were of service always in financial struggle themselves. Everybody that I knew who was serving others had taken this, like, unintentional vow of poverty. And so when I, when I graduated from my undergrad, I didn't go to College. I was 32, you know, went to college at 32. My partner, when I was in my early 40s, he says, you know, he was teaching me how to trade stock. And I loved it. I loved it. Watching the Japanese candlesticks tick up, tick down, I loved it. But I couldn't stand it as a job. It just, I don't have the temperament for, you know, active trading. So he said, well, why don't you become a financial planner? I had never even heard those words. Never even heard them. What I did know was that everyone that I knew had money problems. Everyone that I knew. And, and by living with a mother who was raised around this just extreme wealth, like my mom was, you know, working in the, the home of people who had more than. I mean, their names are on buildings. You know, I knew that it didn't always have to be that way. And I didn't really know what to do about it. I spent the first 40 years after getting out of the Navy in the nonprofit sector. So I worked for schools, I worked for other nonprofits who were doing social justice issues. Feeding people who were unhoused AIDS in the 80s was just ravaging the black community. So I was working in Bayview Hunters Point foundation doing that. And so I've just always been connected to my community and then to serving my community, the health and well being of my community. It wasn't until I was in my 40s that I really came to understand that it didn't matter what else I did, that if people didn't understand or know how to manage their financial resources well, nothing was going to change. I could help them get a house, I could help them go to school, I could help them, you know, deal with health care, all of that. But if they were struggling with money, it just wasn't going to change.

Yeah, that's great context. And you know, I have to be vulnerable here because something that you mentioned right now, as you said, even people who are out there helping people on the social service side are struggling with money. Right. And I, as a financial planner who had worked with people who were multimillionaires and billionaires in Newport Beach, California. Go back to Boyle Heights. You hear me speak. I get a lot of national recognition, but I'm working with people who don't have any money. I'm coaching finance, I'm doing financial life planning. I say before there was a term of financial life planning, not because I made it up, because I had to, because there was no people with money. We were trying to figure out how to change their mindset of scarcity to abundance so I can get them to read the books on financial literacy that were out there, right? So I went back to the body and I realized, oh my God, this community doesn't need financial literacy. They need something to get them to really believe that they're worthy of reading a book on financial planning, that they will have something one day. And so I, that that's what kind of changed everything. But I'm going to share something you shared with me probably about, I've been in the business probably for 15 years when you said, I've told the whole world, I give this to you, whether you made it up or you, you got it from somebody else or whatever. But I, I still say, I remember when Sandra Davis sat me down, I don't know if we were on a phone call or we were, you know, she was holding my hand and she said, louis, I know the work that you're doing in the barrio, but do not be a role model for struggle. And that really hit home and I really went back to figure out, I know I can, but if I could, how do I become sustainable so I can be there 35, 40 years and continue helping communities of poverty? Because even it's tough as a non profit to get money from governments and whatever to do the work that I'm doing, right. And I've never been a non profit, I've always been a for profit. And I wanted to keep it that way. But I just want to share with everything what you said to me because I think that you, that was a really key point because you were nonprofits for so long and you probably saw a lot of people in the social service sector side who were also struggling that you wanted to help out.

Yeah, yeah. And, and yeah, that, that was just a reality that I lived through and I learned that on my own, right. Not modeling poverty. And often what would happen is after I had, quote, unquote, made it right. So after I'm, you know, having some comfort to, some financial comfort to a degree, the idea of going back to my neighborhood and talking and not being able to connect or people not being able to see themselves. In my story, I was very clear that I don't want to model poverty, I don't want to model struggle. I don't want people to have this negative connotation that money is bad or having money is bad to me, you know, makes me crazy when people say things like, oh, you got to change your money mindset. It's not trite, it's not a cavalier thing. And we, when we say it, you know, it doesn't matter how many money mantras I make up, if I don't believe that I am worth.

Having a sense of peace and ease and not having to struggle and not having to worry.

Then not only am I harming myself, I'm harming the people that I serve. And so, so funny you say that about, you know, you were doing financial life planning before it was a thing. That's absolutely true. And it's not to take away from the people who, you know, came along and started doing it with folks who were more wealthy, but those of us doing this in our neighborhoods, and I very deliberately don't call my community the hood. I think there's a negative connotation. We had neighborhood. We might have been struggling in our neighborhoods, but we had neighborhood. There were people in my community who cared about me, you know, and so I don't want to give the impression that, you know, poverty was a character flawless, which I think is what happens often, which really grates on me, right, that, that human beings who are experiencing poverty, there's something wrong with them, they've done something wrong, they didn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. All of those things stories that we tell. But I think for both you and I, we learned early that in order for people to connect with their financial well being, to have financial aspirations, we had to reach them where they were, not where we thought they should be. And I remember when I was making every money mistake possible, you could have told me about credit scores and all that other stuff, but you wouldn't have reached me that way. You know what I mean?

Well, I'll be honest with you, right? So I never knew that I was poor. I had no idea my parents didn't know that we were poor when I, I mean poor. What I had wonderful mom and dad. My mom took, stayed home and take care of us. My dad worked two jobs as a blue collar worker making minimum wage until he lost both jobs in 1971. And then I had to help him with start his business because I spoke English, right. At 11 years old. But I will go back to some of my best memories. My happiest memories have been when I was a child and the only thing that I knew was love and there was always food on the table and there was always family around. So it wasn't until I became educated and got my. Went to ucla, got my grad school and went to work for these wealthy people, I realized, wow, what a, what a disparity in what people have and have not. But poverty from a standpoint of I was super wealthy from a relationship to this day. My parents are alive. I have the best relationship with them. I love them to death. And I never said, oh, dad, you could have been rich and could have given me a car. I paid for my college. And I see that as I became very resourceful. So they gave me the tools to become resourceful. Right. But let me just share with you something that I've always wanted. I don't think I've ever asked you. So, you know, you talked about, you first started and you were trading stocks and then you saw that there was a. This field of financial planning. I don't even do financial planning anymore. I stopped doing financial planning a long time ago. I do financial doing. I do exactly what I've done for my dad, which is I. When somebody comes to me because they don't have maybe all the necessary tools, I. We do all the coaching and then I say, okay, move aside, let's get it done. And then I get my team to just implement it because they're so busy with living their lives and that's what we're supposed to do. We have the knowledge to just do the execution and implementation. You've taken it a step where you said I could be a financial planner, but I mean, for the longest time now, you're not a financial planner. You're a financial coach. And not only are your financial coach, as I said earlier in the podcast, that you're the coaches coach, you now have an organization that is teaching so many young.

Financial planners who, or not even financial planners, people coming into this industry who want to do the work that we do, but realize that maybe financial planning is something that is not important as much as financial coaching or they need the financial coaching to be really great financial planners. So what happened that you even skipped that side and then you created your own coaching certification. And what do you see in the value of coaching versus planning or what's the difference so people can understand?

Yeah, so it's exactly what you said. It's lovely to have a financial plan, but a financial plan that doesn't turn into financial doing as you described is just paper. I mean, it's not even paper anymore, right? It's just a document on our computers. And so what I learned literally within my first year in this field was that, number one, people don't do what you tell them to do. And number two, even if they want to do it, they're challenged by doing it for all the reasons that you just said. And so what I discovered was that my best, my best offering could be the supporting the transformation of the human being, right? So how do you. The collective view, right? How do we live with our money in a way that honors what matters most to us? Because I believe that if we're really clear about that why, if we really understand that why, the how becomes very easy. Because the, the bottom line is the nuts and bolts of financial planning is not difficult.

It's just not difficult at all. Now, it's complex, right? But it's not difficult. And I think that an effective financial planner can break down the complex.

But unless whatever skills you use, whatever it is you decide to call yourself, unless you can invite, inspire, support people in taking the action, nothing changes. And even, even if they're not experiencing poverty, even if they have a lot of money, because where people call me, the coach's coach is because.

Often financial professionals, whether they're a planner, a therapist, a coach will call me when they're working with a client that, you know, everything's going fine as long as the client is making money and everything's great. But then when that client retires and doesn't change their behavior, now the, the professional doesn't know what to do with that client. And that's because there was never a real relationship of transparency, transparency and honesty. So from my perspective, what makes a coach different is that we focus on the human. I coach the human being, and then I support the human being in navigating this situation. I don't call it problem, I don't call it issue. But they have to navigate the situation on their own. Unless, like in the case with you, you all do it now. But not many people do what you do, right? There are very few people who do the work on behalf of the client. Most people like, okay, here's your plan, right? Go do your thing. And, you know, they might manage their asset, but they're not, they're not making sure that the person is living the values that they say that they have and the reason that they have the plan. So a financial coach is Going to focus on what matters most to you, what is the vision that you're trying to accomplish? And then what adjustments might you have to make to align what you do with what you want? And so I don't spend it like I don't do a budget for people. I don't, you know, Chip, I don't do any of that. I don't do any of that. Now if someone is stuck and they want me to do that with them, then I will do that with them, but I won't do it for them. And that just is my fundamental belief that until they're real, really clear about their inspiration and their motivation, all the information I give them isn't going to mean a thing.

Yeah, you know, the, one of the, the most difficult things to do and let me see if I have it. You guys do actually here. One of the things that I do is I have this puzzle box, but I still have to go somewhere more deeper. I've taken this pillar box and this is what I've done for years. I've covered it up, right? And I've always said, hey, listen, these are all your financial. This is your, your retirement. This is you having to take care of your parents, you having to take care of your children, education plan, whatever, your money, your, you know, all the stuff, you know, your health insurance that you can't afford to pay. But we've got to put it together. When somebody goes to the financial planner, they take all that and they start saying, well, okay, we need a index universal life insurance policy. You need the 529 plan. We do all of this, right? But what the hard work is having them to really paint the picture on the puzzle box for me. And we take it here. I say you got to paint the picture because I don't know where to start the pieces. I don't know if they're going to fit for the long term. So I've got to put this puzzle together. The problem is people take it for granted. Oh, I'll do this. Have a session for two or three hours. But I will share with you that most people who have never had an opportunity to sit down and really align their values with what their desires are. Because the problem is that we've got this social media like tick tock, where you're seeing people or you're seeing financial planners or financial advisors who've gotten out of debt and now are making a lot of money and they're in front of their Bentley or in front of their mansion or in front of Their whatever. And all these young kids. And this is what I. Who I want to be, and this is what I want. When in reality that's not what makes you happy. Right. I've always loved the Jim Carrey quote that said, I wish everybody could become rich and famous so they realize that. Or. Or wealthy and. And famous, so they realize, you know, that's not the answer.

Yeah.

And the problem is that for me, it's taken sometimes years as I gradually meet them where they're at, and gradually they realize sometimes they have to come to their own ideas of maybe good things aren't happening for them and they need to readjust their mindset about what's really important to them. Right. And so I think that some of the stuff that you do is you. Your coaching helps them gain that trust much faster to be vulnerable, to really tell you what's important. Because at the beginning, sometimes I'll sit there and when they're telling me, well, I want this, you know, one day I'd love to have my own private jet. And one day. And, you know, and. And they're coming from my neighborhood.

Right.

And one day that. And. And I'm not saying that they can't. Right. Anything's possible. What's the probable is how do I get them to really align what they're doing to be happy and have money? Not just have money.

Right.

So do you work on. Is that what a lot of the coaching is? It opens up people to become more vulnerable to really express what they really want or. Or what. Exactly. Again, I go back to. Because we talk about it from. I want to go deeper, a little deeper than. Than what we normally talk about.

Yeah, yeah. So it's both. And. Right. The first thing that people can expect when they're coming to work with a coach, and particularly me as a coach. And so you have to keep in mind, I'm a. I have a master's degree in financial planning. I'm a master certified coach, and I'm also a certified mindfulness teacher. So all of that together comes into play when I'm working with someone. The first thing that, that we're focusing on is their self awareness. Right. So just like you said, and this can happen anywhere. It can happen with people who are experiencing poverty. It can. It can happen with people who are experiencing extreme wealth. Right. That they, they have a goal, there's somewhere that they want to go, but they're not really connected to why that goal is important to them. And so the first thing that we do is. Is what's really important. I can tell you with certainty. And I kind of feel similarly to what you just described about, you know, social media. I can appreciate that financial influencers have raised the awareness in ways that I believe financial professionals who started from that part or that place could never have done. Without what what the financial influencers have done, I don't think we would be where we are with having the kind of conversations. The rub is anybody who has ever paid a bill now views themselves as a financial expert. And that's a problem because they can say things or do things that harm people.

And so they don't. I don't think they mean any harm, but I do think that sometimes they don't realize the harm that they can create. So as a coach and as a trained coach who's also an expert, my first role is the client's self awareness. Right. What do you know about you and what do you know about what money means in your life? Because often when people are experiencing poverty or they have limited resources, they do believe money will make it better. And so I want us to identify that very early. So what does money mean to you? Right, what does money mean? And then once we know what money means, then we can start to capture the vision, well, what will it do for you? Right? This is what it means. What do you want it to do? And once they can navigate what they want it to do for them, then we can talk about what is the gap between where they are and where they want to be. And once they've identified that gap, then we can explore the opportunities and the obstacles. Right? Because there's always both. And what happens is that.

People can hear about something that they're calling an opportunity. Right? And I'm contending that it's actually just an option. Right? You don't know whether it's an opportunity or an obstacle, yet it's an option. And once you can explore, well, how does that fit in with where I want to end up or what I want my journey to look like? Often we focus so much on, on where do we end up that we, you know what I want my journey to look. One of the benefits that I can say have made my life what it is in my professional career, what it's been, is that I'm cool with the journey. I have no idea where I'm going to end up. No idea. The only thing I do is I make sure I position myself in my mental health, my physical health, my spiritual being, my relationships with others and my money. So whatever I want to Do I'm able to do? I have no clue What Sandra at 70 is going to look like. And I really don't care. I really don't care. I'm doing my journey, I'm doing today, and then tomorrow I'm going to do tomorrow. Right? But, but in all of that, I keep an eye toward.

What does Sandra at 70 need? And what does Sandra at 80 need? And what do the people who gonna be caring for Sandra at 90 need? Right. So I still think about those things. I just don't fret about those things. And I used to, right? I used to. And I remember, I remember when my mom came home and said, we're going to sell the house and we have to move to Los Angeles. I was devastated. I was devastated. And even now I look back at that house that's selling for $3 million now, my mom said to me, I said to her, when I was an adult, I said, so mom, what happened? Why did you sell the house? And she said, sweetheart, I couldn't afford $300 a month mortgage.

On a house that today is upwards of 2 million.

Wow.

And so, and the reason that I bring that up is that everything is relative. Everything is relative. For me, that house was security. For her, it was a burden. And so when I'm coaching a client, self awareness first, what does it mean to you? Say you want a house, what does the house mean? What does that do for you?

Right.

You know, and then, you know, where is there a gap? What values will you be honoring if the house is the thing for you? Right, right. And so, so that's where we go. So it's not so much about being vulnerable with me, it's them being vulnerable with themselves enough to trust that if they can excavate that truth for themselves, they'll then be able to determine what their journey or their path should look. So vulnerability with me is helpful. Vulnerability with themselves and trusting themselves is necessary.

Yeah, that's fantastic. You know, one of the things that I learned from you is where years ago you told me, you know, meet your clients where they're at. And I've learned to do that. Instead of me projecting what I want for them, I listened to what they wanted for themselves. And then when they didn't want that for themselves, when they maybe learn or became self aware that that no longer was important to them after they had the beautiful house and the big car and the great job and they're working 80 hours a week and the horrific relationship. And like you said, it's sad being in A lonely in a marriage when you've got this big house and you can't even enjoy it because you're not happy. Right. And so I learned to meet people where they're at. My own personal definition at this point now, at least for me and for some clients that I think are. That I meet with, have a higher purpose, is that I've always said that money is used to express your full potential and live your highest purpose. Because I do know where I'm going to end up, and I'm actually going to tell everybody. I know where all of you are going to end up. That's six feet under at some point.

Well, actually, I am going to be cremated and planted in a Japanese maple.

There you go. Well, we're still not physically. We're not going to be here, right? 100 years from now, anybody listening just will not be here. And so I have been sometimes, because again, I started even late saving because I was back in the community working in areas of poverty, sometimes being paid with food, not with money, you know, is. I'm trying to save as much as I can now for my retirement, but I've got a good chunk stashed away now. But I'll say, okay, so what is my purpose? What is my passion? What do I love to do? And then I'll find out about a program that really aligns with my values. And I could learn and become a higher being, but it's $10,000 for 10 days. And then I goes, wow, that's a lot of money. And then I realized, money is to help me express my full potential and live my highest purpose while I'm here on Earth. And I go, why not? That's something that money is to be used for. At least that for my definition of what I want, right? And so I tie that like I have the money in the bank, and everybody's told me that the program is an incredible program and that I'm going to get a lot out of it and aligns with what I want to do. And I see that a lot of people have money but aren't willing to invest it in what's important and what their values are, right? When I will do a budget for a client, but just one time, just to get an idea of what their spending habits are, and then I align that with their values. And then we'll say, well, you know, my number one value is family or my marriage. And I'll say, well, where in the budget are you using the resources to make your marriage stronger or make it Better or, you know, increase the, the, the, the depth of that marriage. And it's not even there, not even on. If we do a time budget, it's not even there. Yeah, the whole concept that you talk about self awareness, it's that self awareness. And I think that coaching is where you probably, you know, that's where you make, you get those epiphanies in with the clients. So I, speaking about epiphanies. So you and I have done this a long, long time and we come in with, I call us pragmatic idealists, right? We have our shit together and we learned our lessons and we do what's really practical and we're street smart at the end of the day also. But we're still idealists because we want to change the world. We want to create some level of impact. But with all that through the years, what are things that you never knew that you now know in your profession as a financial planner, as a coach, as a coach's coach, as someone who leads like Golden Gate University in the financial planning program that we haven't even talked about. What are some epiphanies that you've learned along the way that.

That if you could tell somebody doing what we're doing 35 years ago, this is what you're going to learn that you don't even know yet. Share with us some epiphanies.

Yeah, you know, that's, that's a tough one because I look at, I look at the choices that I made and you also, I mean, we have to be fair, right? The world is different than when you and I start. I mean, I met you in 2004. It was before the crash of 2008. Right. And so things were just diff. When I started. No one other than you was specifically trying to do comprehensive financial planning in poor communities and low income communities. People were doing housing counseling, they were doing budget counseling, debt counseling, stuff like that. But no one was saying, let's look at your whole life and try to build something that acknowledges the fact that you don't have a lot of money to save. And there's all these things I don't think anyone else was doing this other than you and I at that time. You know, it's very different now. So, so the, the things I think that I, I would say I've learned that have been hard lessons were that was that what I want for someone else is irrelevant if they are not really clear about what they want for themselves. And you'll notice I'm not saying what a Lot of people say with, well, you can't want it more than they do. I don't believe that it's more. I believe that it's different. And.

I still want what my client wants for themselves. So I don't have an agenda. People will say, well, Cassandra, how do you get clients to do blah, blah, blah. I don't get clients to do anything. I don't get clients to do anything. What I do is I hold up the mirror and I just wish I had learned that earlier. I also am very clear now about the difference between behavior based financial pain, right, or distress and oppressive systems that no matter what somebody does, they're still going to be in struggle, right? And, and, and so it's not that I didn't know that before. I think when I joined this profession, I thought, well, if folks were more literate about financial topics, if they had more access, which we love to call financial capability, knowledge access, right?

I believe now. And what I say now is that for me, I have chosen the work with the individual, right? A lot of my colleagues will say, well, Sandra, you're not going to financially coach somebody out of an oppressive system that isn't, that's broken. So first thing is, the system's not broken. The system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. So let's be clear. There is a reason that people are experiencing poverty, right? There's a reason that there's a racial wealth gap, there's a reason that there is a gender wealth gap. And those two exist to serve a system that is working as design. And so I made the choice to work with the individual humans because I don't have the bail account for working with advocacy and government and all of that. Y' all ain't got enough money to bail me out, right? Because I don't have the temperament for that. I do have the compassion for the individual human who's navigating those systems. I don't have the temperament to deal with systems that, that, that are built on oppressing people who do the most, who bring the most every day to make our cities, our towns, our neighborhoods better. And like you said about your dad, you know, working minimum wage and all that, I struggle with those systems because I'm furious. And so what I wish I had known, what I wish that someone had been able to tell me back then, is there's going to be these two paths that you can take and know that neither one of them is going to feel good 20 years from now.

I am not at all, I am probably One of the most optimistic people you can ever meet. And the reality is those systems are entrenched and persistent.

And so that's hard. I have to wake up with that on my chest every day and still keep a smile.

But what is it that, you know, the thing is that you and I, like I said, we've done this for so long and we've, we have worked with people in our communities where they have sidestepped the system and have become, you know, lawyers from Harvard and doing really well, or they're entrepreneurs and now they have 2, 300 employees. Or they're like my dad. You know, my dad came here as an immigrant from Mexico with no education, started an ornamental iron business when I was 11 years old. And I will share with you s that I don't think my dad knew who the President of the United States was for years or who the governor, who he would. Could care less who the council member was. He just said, oh, interest rates are what, at 12%? Okay, so I got to deal with it. Gasoline's at, you know, five, three bucks, six bucks. So we're here in California, $7 a gallon. Yes, I just deal with it, you know, and he's never really cared because he said, you know, I got it. I have my own destiny. I got to deal with it. I've got clients now from, and I'm going to call it from the body where I grew up who were blue collar workers who now their children are in their 30s and 40s. These guys never made more than 30, 40,000 a year. Now have, you know, almost a million dollars saved in accounts with us. And their children, who are professionals, are borrowing from their, from their parents.

Right? But the world's different though, Louis. I mean, think about it. You know, we used to be able to have a one income household. And right now, I don't know if you saw that, if you haven't already.

The visual maps, I can't remember the exact name of them, but they, they just put out this thing about how much income you have to have to buy a median home all across this country. Right? And I think there's like maybe one or two that's below 100,000.

Right. You know, but I still go back, so. And again, you know, I still go back, then back then again. My parents didn't have a home. They couldn't afford a home. My dad was minimum wage, but at the same time, my dad was always saving. We used to have those five gallon sparkless water bottles and everything. My dad would put in the Sense. Because one day I'm gonna have my own business one day. And then he was forced to have his business because he lost his both jobs. Right. But, but the point is that I remember that we'd be on the floor and they, and my dad would have to tip it over because we couldn't pick it up. And then he'd go to the bank and get those, you know, those paper where you put the pennies in and you'd count 100 and then you put the nickels in and you put, you know, the, the 20 nickels in and you put the quarters in and we would go to the bank and then my dad would, that, that's what was the savings. Right. And my dad, I mean, I, I, my, you know, my dad, my mom cut my hair, my dad was the plumber. My. We, you know, they did everything around the house and they, but they still sacrifice and they'll still save. And so I go back to, I get it. I just think that there's still.

I guess my dad had enough vision and foresight and thought and was very self aware that he was willing to sacrifice for the future. Right. I, it's just a, it's. I still see people who do not have, I still see people who actually have a lot of cushion in these communities that could be saving, but they're still not saving. And how do you approach those people? How do you approach them? And again, sometimes we meet them where they're at, you know, hey, we don't have any money to save. But then the whole, they buy the family, the Disney passes.

Right, Right, right. So what I, what my curiosity is when I experience that is what's important to them about the packet. Right. So I do something a little different about, than what you do around the budget conversation. We don't write down the budget. We take three bank statements, their bank statements or credit card statements. And we go through those statements and we have two different color highlighters. One highlighter is living expenses. What does it cost me to live?

Right.

Another is lifestyle expenses. Notice I don't say needs versus wants. Right. Because the only, the only person who gets to do that is the person who's having the experience. They make their money, they get to decide. Right. So living expenses, lifestyle expenses. Right. And then a question mark by the shit that you just have no idea. Right. You just don't know what it was. Right. It might be taking cash out of what, whatever. Right. You don't know what it is. And then an X by the things you wish you hadn't done.

Because often we do something in the moment and then never reflect back on how many things are in our closet that still have the tags on three, four years later.

That. So that's wonderful. That is, that is excellent. I mean, I love that idea. That's incredible.

Right? And so it's a judgment free zone, number one. That's the difference between coaching and other interventions. Coaching done. Right. And I do mean right is without judgment. Right. Because what has to happen. Curiosity can't exist where there's judgment. And I want them to be curious. I don't want them to. Oh, yes, Andre, I did, you know, I busted the. But I don't want that. I'm not helping them. Shame does not help you grow.

Right?

And so you know, my, my mantra on that is learn the lesson, lead the shame. Right? So every one of my clients, we start with a no shame zone. Right. While we're, while we're having this conversation, I'm going to ask you to put aside every shoulda, woulda, coulda, that, you know, all of that, all of that, put that aside and let's take a look at what is the reality now. Right? And so we look at those things and we actually add them up and then they decide where the sweet spot is. Right? Because they know now that the lifestyle expenses, the stuff that they're not sure what it was, the stuff that they wish they hadn't done, that's their decision point. Now, if they said buying a home or a vacation with my kids or whatever is important, that's that money is staring him in the face of. Okay, of the things that you say are most important to you, how does that impact what you're seeing here? Because the only thing that is really committed are the living expenses that you identified is that these are non negotiables for us. Now, cable might be a non negotiable for them. The Disney Channel might be a non negotiable. That's a decision only they can make. Because the bottom line is that Disney Channel with their kids may mean something to them that I don't understand. You know, and so it's the same thing when people say, oh, well, you know, I work with this client and they're 10% short on their budget and they're giving 10% to their church every, every week. Right. Like, okay, so what does their church mean to them?

Yeah, no, no, I don't. Yeah. And I understand that the epiphany, the reason I actually created what's called a wealth confidence budget and the Reason for that is because it is. We do a one time thing just to become self aware of where the spending, what we actually need to live on. Because I need to prepare for the emergency reserves or whatever. The reason why I don't do the three months is because they may have their property taxes and you know, they pay them six months apart. Sometimes if we pick the three months, it may not be in there or they have, for example, we. On our confidence budget, I write stuff like birthday parties, the birthday gifts. You know, you have a family like Latino families have large families and sometimes you spend a lot of money.

Quintanera comes around, comes around.

You don't realize, but not even the quinceanera, just the birthdays, right, that you go to and whether you spend 50 bucks on every present. But you got like 20 nieces and nephews and so they, they forget about that in their budget. And that's part of what they have to, you know, they, it's, it's a must, right, for them. So. But the, the, the part that I have not done is give them a highlighter to say, you know, cross out all the stuff that, that you bought that you now kind of sort of regret because it's hanging up with still you haven't even worn it or you haven't used it, or you used it once and you never touch it again. And now if you're using it to hand clothes up on that, you know, in, in your, in your bedroom or something, I, I totally get that.

Something you also said I want to share with you because you're bringing up so much wisdom in this podcast. It's just unbelievable. I think, you know, I'm going to have to go back and listen to this one more time. You know, the epiphany that I learned that aligned with what you said is that I learned that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, not the other way around. And so as much as I see people in need and how much as I have the tools to help people in need, not everybody's ready for the need yet. And that's okay. And so, but I let them know that when they're ready, I'm there.

Right.

You know, I'll, I'll have these introductory meetings and I could tell that they're not ready. And I said, listen, well maybe, you know, we'll give you a. I've been here for 35 years. I hope God keeps me alive for a few more years that, you know, I'll be here. I've always been here. And, and, and, and the other thing is like, what's your minimum? I don't have a minimum.

Right.

My minimum is that you are engaged and committed to changing your life and are willing to implement the tools that we work together to help you. That, that's the only minimum that I have. Right. That's it.

Right. And that's the lovely part about coaching, because sometimes so people will say things like, well, is every client coachable? So they'll ask me questions like that. Sometimes the coaching that I'm doing is to facilitate their readiness. So, so if a client comes to me and we're having this conversation and it becomes clear that they may not be as ready for action as maybe they even thought they were, my relationship with them may just be, how would you know when you were ready? What would readiness look? You know, and so, so then that's the conversation we're having. That doesn't mean we're going to continue with an engagement right now. You know, and to be quite frank, I don't even take one on one clients anymore. I just don't have the capacity at this point. But that's.

That'S where the, the, the rubber meets the road. It's like my coaching may just be, how do we move from pre contemplation? I'm not thinking about change. I'm not really ready for change to contemplation. Okay, now I think I'm ready. These are some things that I would have to do or be ready to do in order to actually make change happen for myself. So the lovely part about being a coach is that you truly do meet people where they are and stay with them wherever it is they are for as long as they're there. Now that doesn't mean that we don't.

Invite action and accountability. So for someone who's not quite ready, my action would be to ask, invite them. And of course, people will say yes or no. Every time I, I inviting someone to do something, I'll say, so I'm gonna, I have a request. And anytime I make a request, you can say yes, no, or counter offer, Right? So I'll make a request. And that request might look like, make a note every time you feel financial distress. Make a note every time you, you notice that you have some anxiousness, fear, upset, any emotion around money. And then just send me a text, you know, two weeks from now that says, sandra, I did it and this is how I feel. And so that may be their only homework. And they will figure out what meaning this holds for them. You Know, and so when I say I meet people where they are, I mean just that.

That's amazing.

Wherever they are is where they are.

That's amazing. I want to change direction now. We don't have a lot of time left, but tell me where you think the state of our industry is in recruiting and helping young.

Kids of color, black and brown, to come into the industry and really teach them the right way to help the communities of color that are out there. Right. I'm, I'm part, I'm on, like, on the national CFP board. I've been a certified financial planner since I think, 1990.

You know, only like 3, 3.8%, less than 4% of all Latinos and blacks are.

CFPs. What needs to change from your, from your vantage point, because you're so well entrenched in this, you meet with all the financial professionals, you meet the coaches, you're out there on the nonprofit world. You know, I'm going to give you permission right now, right. If I, if, you know, if I can tell you, you know, say, hey, you've got, you're going to, you're the president now. You can change anything you want. You have no senate, no house. You can make up the laws from a wish list. What do you see that we could be doing better from an industry standpoint?

Yeah. So I think walking the talk, right, right now, it's a lot of lip service about diversity. Even in our profession, even in our professional organizations, there's a lot of lip service and I see very little.

Follow through. There's a lot of pomp and circumstance, you know, conferences and, you know, talks and all of that stuff. But where the rubber meets the road, you know, I'll tell you this. I went to a conference, God, it's been 15 years easily. And the organization that put on the conference, it was in D.C. and one of the finest conference centers and hotels and all of that. And they brought some successful clients onto the stage. And a young woman sat up on that stage in front of at least 500 people, at least, maybe even more. And she said, the best way to teach me how to manage money is give me some money. Right? I mean, and that was it. That was the bottom line. The best way to teach me how to manage it is to make sure I have it. And, you know, I still feel like even with all of the talk at the upper echelons, the professional organizations, there's a lot of talk. But where the rubber meets the road, who sits on these boards, who, who is invited? I, I Happen to be one of the people who.

Was in the Psychology of Financial Planning book that was recently put out. And I'm the only black woman who's in that book. But if you look around, there's, you know, 15, 16, seen other folks, and when there's. As long as there's one black person, one Latino, I'm not even sure there's a Latino in this. Right. And so it's still just lip service. I just went to a registered program director, my first one in my new role at Golden Gate. And, you know, all of the people on the main stage, the keynotes, they had panels, but the keynotes were all white women who. Every slide that they had that was depicting the humans were all white women. And. And so it still doesn't change. You know, it's a. We're, you know, we're gonna come out, we're gonna put on this song and dance, but when the rubber meets the road, we go back, we're still behaving the same way. And. And. And, you know, I'm at an age, and I know you and I are the same age. I think almost exactly the same age. And.

I'm weary. You know, I'm weary. And so I just do what I'm going to do. I don't get invited to speak in a lot of those places because they don't want to hear what I have to hear. Is this kind of a test. I spoke up at this conference that I just went to. I spoke up day one, first keynote, and then what I would do is I would go and I would sit by myself at every table, at every time, I'd sit at the table by myself to see who wanted to be seen with me.

Just one person, you know, And. And so, you know, I understand that I can rub people the wrong way when I talk about the gender and the wealth gaps, but I'm not going to stop talking about them. I don't know how much longer I'm going to be on this planet. I'm going to say what I have to say, right? We're going to do what they got to do, but I'm going to say what I have to say. And I just don't see us as a profession making space.

As long as we're still saying, well, let's make the business case for bringing blacks and Latinos, we don't get it. As long as we're staying still saying that we don't get it, because it's not what matters. If I still have to make a business Case for my existence in this field.

You're wasting my time. I'm not going to try to teach you why I matter.

Right, right. That's. Yeah. And it's, it's just amazing how such smart and intelligent people have to be told what is, what I see is obvious. Right. I was part of an organization back in 2004, 2006. I was on the national board of a big financial planning organization. They had, I think 28,000 members at the time. And I said, if you guys don't wake up and see the changing demographics in America and what this is going to look like 20, 30 years from now, that organization down as, I think down to 17, 18,000 members. And, and for them, diversity was not people of color, but diversity was different industries and their profession. And so, and that's, and I don't think that, you know, it's gone down to 17,000 because of that particular reason all by itself. There are other reasons why. But I go back to. It's right in front of their face and if they, if you have to sit there and explain it to them, they're just, they don't get it. And you're not, they're not going to get it. You can't change the Republican viewpoint and Democrats viewpoint. You just can't change it. They already have their global beliefs and global views and they're going to write it out until, you know, it's forced on them. I guess. I don't know. Because of the change. Tell me about the youth. You are around a lot of young people sometimes. The problem is that you and I are out speaking and we're preaching to the choir. But there are a lot of out there. There are a lot of young people in our communities who are interested in this profession. What are you seeing out there?

The next generation that's come in behind us or the two generations that are coming behind us? What do you see going on?

Yeah. So first of all, they want to know, they want to learn from our challenges, but they don't want to be bound by what we believe. Right. So I talk to a lot of young folks, including my grandchildren. My un. My, my eldest grandchild is now 24. My youngest grandchild just turned 15. So I'm talking to young people all the time. And I did something recently with a group called College Track and the Golden State warriors where I was talking to young, younger people. And the thing I think that we are missing is that we start talking about, oh, well, we need to have financial literacy in high school. Listen, the first time a child says, I want, they're ready for a financial education lesson. Right. And it doesn't have to be some big, huge, dramatic thing. What I think we can do differently is start to talk with young people about the experience they're already having about money. We can talk to young people about what it means to them to have it or not. Right. What does it feel like when you can buy something with money you've earned? Right. And so I just think that if we listen well, they will tell us if we. If we pave the way, they will follow. I see young people all the time who. And I. I try to make sure that there's space for young folks in my coach training. I would love to be able to raise the money to do a cohort of all young people, like 18 to 24. Right. So that more of them are doing it. But what a lot of groups are doing, and this is my dream. When I started my nonprofit, one of my things is that I wanted to train college students who would then train high school students, who would then train middle school students, who would then train elementary school students. So in my head, that's the progression, right? So I'm still there as their mentor and support system, but the people who are in the line are the one building that capacity. And my hope is that they see this as a viable profession. I do believe. I do believe it is a struggle for people of color, for. For. For black people, Latinos, to carve out a viable and.

Financially rewarding profession because of the way financial planning is marketed today. I think that that's a big factor. I think that in our community specifically, often people are comfortable paying for insurance, paying for tax prep, but might not be used to paying for advice. It might not be quite comfortable paying for advice. And so I think that that's. That's a rub. Particularly when there's confusion as to whether or not, you know, your tax preparer is giving you financial planning advice, whether your insurance agent is actually giving you financial planning advice. So I think that there's just still a lot of. Of confusion about what we do, what comprehensive planning really is. And I love that you made up a different word for it, because I think that you're right. It. The word comprehensive financial planning doesn't resonate with most people who first thought is playing with what, I don't have enough money to make it to the end of the month, how am I planning? So I think if we can meet young people there, we might be able to shift that trajectory in the Thinking first and then in the possibility of a career?

Yeah, for me it's more how do we get.

Our communities to support and pay the people that you're training and coaching who really want to do the right thing and not be product driven, not be process driven, but be people driven and work and spend their money to become a CFP or to be a financial coach who are willing to do the work or willing to learn financial planning, but at the same time realize that the behavioral side is just as important. And how do we get our communities to value that work and pay for that work to support people? Because it's really tough to keep somebody they're sustainable in this economy, like you said, when both people have to work and maintain a household as they got kids. So that, that's, that's something that.

I'm trying to figure out. I know I can't, but if I could. And how do we get people to understand that, that wisdom? Sometimes they see the behavioral coaching as not an opinion, but more it's like therapy work. They value it much and they're not willing to pay for it. And to me, that's the hard work. Somebody said that the hardest work. The hardest work is the heart work.

Yes.

Yeah. The hard work is the heart work. And, and, and that's what you and I do a lot.

Yeah. I do think they value it. I think they have a hard time paying for it when they don't think that they can do anything with it if they're already struggling. So it's not that I think that they don't value it. And I think that's why people will do things like do the Thousand dollar challenge or things like that that feel accessible to them. And I think that that's one of the reasons that, you know, groups work like I do a sister circle for women who are trying to save that first thousand dollars. Right. Those kinds of things, I think work. I think that it's not until they've gotten over the hump of paycheck to paycheck or direct deposit to direct deposit that they can begin to think about, okay, now I can plan for something beyond this. So I think it's really a journey.

You know, and it's not easy when you're the one trying to make a living doing it. And you and I have both been there.

Yep, absolutely.

So.

What book, documentary, film.

Music, score, whatever could you share with people who are out there in our journey right now? That.

That, that helped you out a lot. I mean, what book you. That you read 20 years ago, or you read last week or. Or today, would you recommend to somebody who's in our profession who wants to help other people that can see things.

In a different way?

Yeah. So the book that I think probably has impacted me the most is called the Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck.

Wow. That we were going back now. I read that book that. That was like, what, in the late 90s, right?

Yeah, yeah. I think probably 80s.

80S.

I think probably 80s. So that book shifted my understanding of myself and my journey.

Then the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Love that book. Yeah, I've given that book out, so I've given it to all my kids. I've read that book probably six times.

Yeah.

And then when I feel like I'm a little bit lost, I go back to that book just to just ground me.

Yeah, absolutely. I do the same. And then the next one is by Isabel Wilkerson called Warmth of Other Suns.

Wow.

The importance of that book to me.

Is an understanding of the power of community.

Even when you are moving away from like that is the story of the great migration out of the south, the great migration of black people out of the south. And it follows three families. And it is a reminder that.

Knowing our roots.

Is really crucial, even when we've made it.

So I believe that those three books have really.

Impacted my life and my belief, my belief in myself, my belief to overcome when times are tough.

Like you, I spent a lot of money on professional development.

And so having practices of mindfulness, they don't have to be, you know, yoga or sitting in a certain way on a cushion. There are many, many mindfulness practices. So I would say having a mindfulness practice, and, you know, I tell people the only thing it means to be mindful is to have your. Your mind where your behind is. Are you here right now? Right. Or are you off somewhere else? Are you thinking about something else? And so I think if we can begin to do that more. Right. Not having the distractions that are so readily available to us all the time, and choosing to spend time focused, I think it gives us a deeper sense of ease. We can breathe better.

We can hear each other better, and I think we can know ourselves more deeply.

What.

The Sondra Davis still have left to do? What? Listen, you're always working on something. You and I talk on the phone, and we're both, you know, weary and tired, and then all of a sudden, we wake up the next day and we get a phone call from somebody who wants us to be part of something bigger. What do you got going on in your future. What is something that you still have left to do?

What, what's in your, what's in your future vision?

Yeah. So I never thought, I've been self employed for 30 years. I would have never thought if somebody said, oh, well, Sandra, you're going to take a W2 job. I actually took a W2 job. I'm the program director at Golden Gate. I love it. It makes my heart beat fast. I want to see more black and Latino students in that program. So, so that pulls at my heart.

I have not yet authored a book. I have, I have been editor, contributor to several books, but I've not written my own. So I want to do that, which of course you've been coaching me on that for years. I still have every note you've ever given me on what to do. I haven't done it yet, but I need some mental space to be able to do that. And then as far as what's left to do, our coach training program is global. Now, I can't remember if you knew that, but we have a cohort that completed in Ghana, we have a cohort that completed in India. So we've got people around the Globe who are FFCs, financial fitness coaches. And we are right now working on our credentialing with the International Coaching Federation. So I want it to be a licensed program that doesn't only rely on me. So I'm looking to build a cadre of financial coach trainers who train other people to do what they do.

And be able to serve the communities they want to serve. So that's, that's what's left for my life. And then of course, travel. I'm a travel fiend.

That's amazing. I mean, again, I go back to people who are listening to you. Like I said, when it comes, you know, it rolls off the tongue of what you're doing. But there's some really big projects that you're talking about turning your, you know, your coaching program into a global program. It's not that easy. Just, you know, I'm going to Ghana, then I'm going to go to France and I mean it's, it's a lot of work. And then also making sure that the people that you're working with that you can trust and rely and, and carry your, your work, you know, with its level of authenticity and transparency. So that's amazing. We're going to close out with the last question that I have for you is what brings you your, your biggest joy in the work in your Life, what makes you just really happy? The work that you're doing.

So in my work, the thing that brings me the biggest joy is when people say.

Something that you said ignited something in me. Right. I don't. I don't want people to believe that I am their hero. I want people to know that they are their own hero. So when people come out and say, you know, I heard you say this, and this is what happened, for me, that, to me, is the biggest joy. And I mean, it's so fascinating because over the last month, literally not a week goes by that someone is not reaching out and say, hey, you know, I got my book finished. And people, one. One guy who wrote Black Financial Culture, he says, this feels so odd. He signed his book to me. He says, this feels so odd. I should be signed. You should be signing your book for me. And so when, you know, when in this same person, he said to me, every time I see you, you're pouring into something. And so that's my greatest joy. You know, when. When people understand that everything that I do is because we all belong. We belong to each other, and we are all just walking each other together on this journey. Ram Dass says, we're all just walking each other home.

That's it.

And so when. When that happened, I feel a deep and abiding sense of joy.

You're amazing. I know that you don't want us to call you a hero, but I will share with you. You're my hero. You're one of my heroes. I. Every single time I get interviewed for a podcast, they say, you know, who else can we bring on? And I say, there's only one person that if you haven't on the show, it's Sandra Davis. I go to conferences, and who else could we come to? Big Speak is Sandra Davis. You are a giver. You really care sometimes. I always say we sometimes care too much, but it doesn't matter. That's who we are. I want to thank you. I'm going to listen to this podcast because, I mean, some of the. I was actually taking notes and some of the stuff that you were talking about, so I got to go back and listen to the podcast. Sandra, thank you so much for being with us today. I love you to death. And we'll be seeing each other soon.

Thank you, Louis. I love you even more. I am so glad that we have finally got a chance to do this together.

Thank you. Bye bye.

Thank you for listening to the Wealth Gap warriors podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. I love the show, guys. You're awesome.

Zoe Lewis. Next time is we continue our wealth gap warrior journey, creating a brighter future for all.