Youngest Self-Made Female Billionaire Lucy Guo on Money, Success, AI & Building Passes

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In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it. Lucy Guo, are you ready to get hot smart rich?

Aren't we already hot smart rich?

I was so excited for your answer to be like, what is her answer going to be based on who you are? But we're going to start off the episode like we always do. What is the last thing you put on your credit card to buy and the last most expensive thing that you bought?

The last thing I put on my credit card to buy was actually an UberX on the way here. And then you said the most expensive thing I've ever bought in a Christmas.

No, last most expensive thing that you've bought.

Last most expensive thing I bought was a PJ to London.

Okay, Lucy, I was so excited about your episode because I feel like you are the definition of hot smart rich, which is really like you aren't put into a box. Like you're so multidimensional, you care about so many different things, but obviously we have to start with The rich part, because you are officially the youngest self-made billionaire woman. What does it feel like when someone says that?

Honestly, it feels like nothing. I feel like that title has changed every year, right? And I actually think it's a good thing that title has changed every year because that's a sign that more female founders are succeeding and that we can continue to support each other by reinvesting in ecosystem. So yeah, I mean, it's cool, I guess, but. I'm excited for like that torch to be passed on.

And you don't really, like, it sounds like you think of yourself as so much more than that. Who is Lucy beyond that title if people are just hearing about you for the first time today?

Yeah, I honestly think that most people would associate me as just like someone crazy that doesn't really sleep. Um, which I really thank my parents for. Um, my parents need like 3 to 5 hours of sleep a night, and I definitely think I got that gene where it's like, you know, you know, you don't need to sleep. Um, I have like an obsession with Barry's Bootcamp. I think people associate me with that. People associate me with like loving music. I do think that like my personality is interesting, right? Like I have my skydiving license, my scuba diving license. I ride electric longboards. I am always down for a crazy adventure. I'll go on like a 24-hour trip to Japan just to eat the freshest fish. I like finding life hacks. I love free things.

People Yeah, and you're still taking UberXs, which I love. Is that part of your mentality? Act broke, stay rich. Can you explain what that means to people that are hearing that for the first time?

Yeah, I mean, I think that when I think about how I spend money, it's like, do I really need these things? Because every single dollar that I spend on something that I don't necessarily need, I could be reinvesting, right? So my mentality is like, if you act broke and like you're constantly reinvesting your money, that's how you stay rich. There's certain things where you. You know, like if I really, really like a piece of jewelry, I'll get it. But I try typically not to spend money on material things I don't need. So for example, an Uber Black is not gonna get me to a destination any faster. So why would I spend money on an Uber Black instead of an UberX? Versus when I do fly private, it, I actually do the math. It's like, okay, if I'm giving like a ride to a bunch of friends, like collectively, do we all save money?

Yeah.

Even if I am the one covering it, it's fine. Like in my head it maths out. And then also just like the convenience of like, okay, I'm saving Saving like let's call it two to three hours not going through airports. What if I get delayed? That's like another ten hours, and like how much money could I be making with that time?

It's so interesting because I think so many people think about their money in such a different way. Have you always thought about money like that, or has that changed as you've succeeded in your career?

I think I have. In the beginning, when I first made a few million, I would say I probably didn't necessarily think that way because I was still writing Uber.

Pools.

And my friends were trying to tell me later, like, hey, like, you know, money is time, time is money. Um, you're wasting so much time writing Uber Pools instead of UberXs. Um, you could be using that time doing something more productive that overall is better for your business and makes you more money. But I couldn't really wrap my head around, like, why would I pay double when, like, Uber Pool is half off?

One of the things I love about you, you talk a lot about living your life in experiments, which I find fascinating because then you can solve and, like, really identify a pattern of, like, what worked and what didn't.

Mm-hmm.

And you talked about doing this experiment where you were like, when I first had money, I was dressed a certain way, wearing Walmart, wearing Shein. And then I was like, I'm gonna experiment with how people treat me when I actually do have money. And it was a completely different shift. Do you think that the title that was blasted everywhere, cover of Forbes, has made people treat you differently now that you are known as the youngest self-made billionaire?

Honestly, with my friends, not at all. Or not even just my friends, but like people that already knew me. Um, life is very much so the same. Like nothing has changed there. I would say in terms of new people that I'm meeting, probably. And then my DMs are just slammed. Like I—

with like love stuff or with business opportunities or like—

I would say like it's just a mix of both. Like I have a lot of Very cool celebrities that like I probably used to have a crush on honestly, that I'm now like internet friends with.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

I also have a hat that the girls love that says cash poor equity rich, which a lot of people don't understand because they're like building their business, they're putting everything into it, and then there's hopefully going to be a payoff with equity. But I feel like the world is just waking up to equity, and there's this misunderstanding of people that hear the word billionaire and they're like, oh my god, she has a billion dollars in her bank account. Can you break down to people what it actually means? What does it mean to be a billionaire in the way that you've been talked about in the press as it relates to like liquidity?

Yeah, so most people, uh, that have any status as a billionaire, most of their, um, net worth is tied up into assets. Assets can be anything, whether it's stock in a company, it can be art, it can be real estate, but these aren't necessarily liquid. For example, even with real estate and art, you can own a billion dollars worth of items, but Are you going to be able to sell that? Also, it's perception, right? Like, you might earn $1 billion worth of art in Basquiats at today's value, but if there's no one willing to buy it, like, you may never get liquid.

Right.

And I think that that's— and we see this with like tech company founders where, you know, their net worths or their companies shoot to billions of dollars. But at the end of the day, when it's not cash, it can go to zero at any point in time.

When you have the money that you have now, What do you think your relationship has been like with trends? Like, as an example, like everyone being obsessed with Hermès bags or Le Booboo. Like, are you following that because you now have the opportunity to do that? Or are you like, now that I have it, I don't feel the need to go and chase those trends?

Yeah, I've never really felt the need to chase trends. Like, I actually don't own a bag at all.

So true. You walked in with literally keys, a coffee, and now we're wearing these cool sunglasses.

Yeah, exactly.

I love free things.

So these sunglasses were free and I was like, oh, amazing, I'll take them. It's actually so funny how much I love free things. Like I saw a pile of lip balm, and I don't even wear lip balm in my hotel. And I grabbed and scooped it up and put it in my friend's bag. And she was just like, Lucy, why'd you fill my bag with lip balm? You don't even wear lip balm. And I was like, it's free though. And like the bag ended up being filled with like ponchos, lip balm, like mints, etc. Like everything I could find just because I love free things. But no, I don't. I don't really feel the need to chase trends at all. I would feel like if I did feel that need ever, it was during my experiment when I first started dressing nice. And I was like, oh my God, let's see how people would treat me differently. And it was such a switch, like night and day, that I think I became addicted to it for a little bit. And I went on shopping sprees for a few months. Then I hit a point where I was like, this is really stupid. Why am I wasting so much money? And I think at that point also, people just like, I established who I was. So when I switched back to normal clothes, it was really whatever. And it'd be funny because I remember I got a dress from a costume shop for $5. I wore it, and I really do believe this is why it— like, you can get away with fakes and whatever depending on who you are, because everyone thought it was couture. And I'm like, I'm wearing a $5 dress from like a costume shop. This is not couture.

But I think that's why I'm so happy for people to listen to this, because like the people that aren't at that place, right? Like, they can feel confident knowing that like Lucy doesn't feel the need to wear all of these things that we see on social media that you need. One of the things that I've always found really fascinating when we talk about like power and money and femininity in like Silicon Valley is I think when men get a lot of money, it assoc— it gets associated with power.

Mm-hmm.

And people respect that and they wanna be around it. And I think when women come into a lot of money that they have rightfully earned, a lot of people are like angry or try to tear it down. Do you think that you were prepared for people not to like you once you achieved the success that you did?

Oh, I saw it starting from when I got the Thiel Fellowship. Like, I got the Thiel Fellowship and I had quite literally men in my Thiel Fellow class tell me I only got it because I was a woman. I had a guy tell me I only got my Facebook internship because I was a woman. And I was like, bro, I went to the number one CS school in the country. You didn't. So stop being salty. You did not get the internship.

So crazy. I feel like that's what's— what I get from some of the interviews I've watched of you. And I want to hear a little bit more depth to this, but like, It feels like that proving people wrong has motivated you. Was there a moment that you can take us back to of like being told you couldn't do something when you were little Lucy, or you were like just growing up that has motivated you more so than money has?

Yeah, I mean, I think I was told I couldn't, I wasn't good enough starting from when I was really young. Um, my brother was just much, much smarter than me in like every single way from an IQ standpoint. Um, he skipped a bunch of grades in math, was taking AP Calc BC in like 6th grade, was doing competitive math, et cetera. And I just wasn't, he's like a prodigy, right? So I just wasn't that smart.

Really?

And I think that just from all angles, my peers telling me that I wasn't cool and whatnot, I've always just wanted to prove people wrong. I was always a little bit rebellious to the point where, I mean, sorry mom and dad, but I just enjoyed pissing them off. I remember every time they'd leave, I would just have friends hop over the fence and hang out with them. And it got to a point where like I knew like reverse psychology was happening to me, but I just like I just didn't want to listen to them.

You just like kept going and kept your head down. Now that you have this title, has it ever worked against you where it puts you back into that mentality of like being told no?

I think I'm constantly just trying to like like even now, right? Like I'm like okay, everyone's saying okay she had like one company, she was lucky, whatnot. And then I felt the need to start a venture fund and prove like oh I can do other things too. And that venture fund is doing very. Very well, mostly due to ramp. So shout out and Kareem, I love you. Thank you for letting me put money in it. Biggest mistake was not putting in more money. But yeah, I think I like still feel the need to just prove more to myself. It might not necessarily be like proving people wrong, but like proving more to myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the things that I always find so fascinating with people that have achieved success, right? Because like you talk about having failures before, and I love that you're like I pivoted a company. If it didn't work within like two weeks, I would just like be on to the next. Do you feel like you still have that same beginner's mindset where like if you were to try something new today and it didn't work out, do you feel like there's more pressure because you are known as now like the Lucy Guo? You know, like, is that fear or like that pressure in you today to just succeed because you already have?

I definitely think there's a pressure to succeed, but I would absolutely pivot, um, right away if I thought something wasn't working. Like even today, right? Like Passus is doing well, but if I saw an opportunity to pivot Passus into something that would be more successful, I would absolutely do it because it's something that I need to do for my invest— like, I've never lost anyone money, so it's like, okay, yeah, like, it's like if I have the opportunity to be able to like help people make more money, um, so like let's just say for an example, like we decide, oh, okay, cool, like actually, um, we should create a creator bank instead and here's why. I would pivot resources to that.

How do you have conviction? Or like, how do you even see those trends? Like, if someone's listening to this and is like, I think I have an idea, I think I want to go in this way, like, how do you initially even start to think about where that opportunity could be?

Yeah, so I mean, I think I evaluate market size first, and I always try to map out from like bottoms up how to get to like $100 million a year in revenue. And then based off of that, I look at how feasible it is. So it's like, okay, let's say I'm doing an enterprise business and that my customer base is companies like between 100 and 500 employees, and I'm going to charge like $5 a month per employee. I look at like what, how many companies I would need to hit $100 million a year in revenue. And then what percentage of companies that is in the grand scheme of things. Like, is it like, I just need to get 0.2% of like the population to use my product and then I hit the $100 million a year, or do I need to get 50%? If it's 50%, that's a really small market, right? Like the chances you capture 50% of market is Very unlikely. So I do that first, and then if the numbers work out, then I believe in selling a product before you build. So this means going out to companies and you know getting LOIs signed, etc. And if I get enough LOIs signed, then I build the product.

So interesting! I love seeing this side of you because I will say your personal brand that's available to the public is very different than I think like the founder hat that you wear internally every single day. I wanted to say this till later, but I was actually going to say to you. I read that you are like the female Elon Musk, but I actually think you're the tech Dua Lipa because you make everything look like a holiday even though you're like grinding so hard. How did you decide, or was it was it conscious how you decided to build your personal brand to the public that was different from maybe the personal brand that people know of you as as like the CEO?

Ah, I would say it happened by accident quite literally. I was doing a like LP dinner. For my fund in Miami, and then what happened was my address got leaked. And I was also helping organize this hackathon in Miami at that same week. So you know, started the hackathon, founded it, you know, was a judge, brought in engineers, etc. My address got leaked to the engineers, and it was like quite literally during this LP dinner for my venture fund. And I'm just like a nice person, and I was like, "Well, I have no furniture in my house," and people just started showing up like by the hundreds at my house. And I was like. Well, okay, fine. You guys can all come in. And then obviously, I mean, it ended up being kind of a party. Wasn't meant to be. And next thing I know, the New York Post writes like, you know, Lucy Guo, Miami's like biggest party girl or something. Oh my God! I think I just like owned it after.

But I think so many people would be afraid of that. And it's so funny because that's like such a tech thing. You like let the market decide what you actually what your value is or like what they want. The consumer's always right. Was there ever a part of you that was a little nervous when you started to be known as like the party girl that it was going to detract from your success and what you were actually building?

I think at that point I was so used to people detracting from my success anyways. Like, I mean, I think you face it as like a female founder or even like a female engineer, to be honest, all the time, that it was just like another blip. I was like, okay, whatever, like people are gonna look at this. But at the end of the day, like people that know me or meet me in real life, they see how disciplined I am, right? Like I am at Barry's at like 6, 7 AM. I'm in office longer than everyone else. I like, like last night I was literally working till midnight, and then at midnight I wanted to go out. I didn't end up going out because no one would go out with me, so I just ended up working till like 3 a.m., then fell asleep. But yeah, like it's I think people see in real life see like where I am at hours of the day, and they do the calculations and realize like at the end I just don't sleep, and that's how I'm able to have. So much time to do everything.

So when you were building your first company that worked out, Scale AI, did you have any sort of personal brand or you were just like not on social media and it all really started snowballing once you had started doing your fund and now Passes?

No, I definitely had a personal brand.

Okay.

Um, I had a reputation for releasing stuff on Product Hunt. I was Product Hunt Maker of the Year like 2 years in a row. Um, I won a lot of hackathons, which is how I even got the Thiel Fellowship. Like I went to like eight to ten different hackathons and won a prize at like every single one of them. So people, people knew me for sure, and I had a lot of fans. I would say actually at that point in time, I had almost no haters. It was pretty much all just fans because I hadn't necessarily been successful yet. It was when like success started hitting, the haters really came through.

How do you deal with that?

Um, I mean honestly, like for my own mental health, I don't read. Like I've never watched any like podcast I've done.

So you're not gonna watch this podcast, Lucy?

I'm sorry. Yeah.

This is I'm gonna send you a good clip. You're gonna be like, I gotta watch it.

I read clips.

I've watched clips because people obviously tag me in clips.

Yeah.

But no, I've never like said I don't read any like articles or interviews I've done, etc. I don't read comments. Like if people are hating on me on the internet, like my mentality in general is that it's actually a good thing that I'm polarizing enough. Like I'm being talked about, right? Yeah. And I think I know me and I have like so many people around me that know me and like love me and like, like I, I don't have negative thoughts in my brain. Like I can't really explain it, but I don't have negative thoughts in my brain. Like I don't feel the emotion anger.

Wow.

Um, for me it's just like, I, I just like keep it outta sight, outta mind. Yeah.

Wow. I need to take some of that truly because like I have full Reddit threads about myself and I'm like so just tempted to go And I think especially when you are in this creator economy world, like for me, the way I think about it sometimes is like the consumer is telling me what they want next. So it's like good to listen to both the positive and the negative to see like what people are saying.

Yeah. And I would just have my PR team summarize how that happened. But if it makes you feel better, okay, someone hates me enough that, um, I hired a PI, but they, someone is spending a lot of money, I think in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. They created several bots and like made Reddit threats and like bot upvoted like all this hate stuff and bot commented hate stuff. Um, people are like, yeah, I, I'm being botted all over the internet. Someone is running ads on like, like low-cost ads in like India and other countries on me to make me look bad. It's crazy. Like, I don't know what's happening.

But to your point, it means that you're doing something right. And I think that is what I love about like people building in public today is they show the good and they show the bad side because then it makes it feel like way less isolating. When you look at founders today who present this idea of like everything is together, everything is amazing, and don't necessarily talk about like the hardness and like the struggle to get there, what do you think is going on in the mentality of someone who who acts like that? The founders who just present that like if they're building a seed-based company, right? And as you know, any seed-based company is like a wild card. You're like you you might have product market fit, but it's like not there yet. And they present like everything is amazing, and this is all rainbows. Like Is that really what's happening behind the scenes? Or like, where is the mentality of that type of founder?

Yeah, that's absolutely not what's happening behind the scenes. Like, chances are, startups are a roller coaster, right? No matter how well a startup is doing, it's going to be a roller coaster because there might be some political drama. Or like, you know, you might lose a contract and you're worried about it. Or you're stressed about like a new contract closing. Like, nothing is ever absolutely perfect.

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I think what's going on in the head of these founders is that they're struggling, but they want to present like everything is going well because they want to raise their next round.

Right.

And as someone who's raised millions of dollars from venture capitalists, what is the best way that you think someone can ask for money?

I think what Yeah. My strategy of fundraising is fundraising when you don't need to raise. And I always approach the first investor I maybe want to hit and like, hey, I'd love to get some advice. For my Series A, what I had done is I sent out an investor update, because I knew I would get preempted from that investor update, which is exactly what happened. Within minutes, VC funds were contacting me, and the raise accidentally began, right? But I knew it was going to happen because the update was so good. And that is typically how I would suggest people to fundraise, where it's like, you know, if you say you're fundraising and you don't have money yet, you're already fighting an uphill battle. But if you act like you don't need the money, even if you need the money, if you act like you don't need the money, you ask for advice or you send a good update, they will approach you and you want them begging to invest in you.

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Yeah, it was an interesting decision. So at the time I was running a venture fund, I, uh, had started this program called HF Zero where we were a YC competitor, but the difference was that we were living with the founders. And so I was just around so much ambitious energy, and, you know, the founders are coming to me asking me about all these questions, etc. Like, we were essentially incubating companies. I tried to get a founder to work on this idea and no one would, and I think And I think just being around that environment made me want to go start a company again. And I had a friend ask me to be like CEO of his AI company. And I just, I sat on it for a day and I decided, 'cause I've always optimized for learning and I'm like, I know the playbook for this. I wanna try something new and something fun and something harder. So that's when I was like, you know what? Like, I'm gonna go incubate this consumer idea. And here we are.

And the creator economy is extremely challenging to build in. Why do you think that is?

I think a number of reasons, and my answer before is slightly different than my answer now. I would say before, I think the challenge in the creator economy was that you weren't getting the best engineers slash tech people because people weren't interested in building in the creator economy. Like when you look at most creator economy apps, they're not tech founders. A lot of them are built by Honestly, like promoters, and the problem when you are building a company and you're not a technical founder and you don't have a good CTOs, you might hire a team in a different country because you want to save on cost. You build the app, you burn a bunch of money, you don't have product market fit, and like you ran out of money, right? Or the app is so janky and slow, the UX is bad, and no one wants to use it. And because it's a consumer app, you can't have something too terrible. So I think the problem lies in that. Like my first answer is like I think the problem lies because like. Technical people don't think to build and create economy, and I think a lot of engineers like all they care about is solving really interesting technical problems, which is why you're seeing so many people do things in the AI space. For example, it's harder to hire for amongst other things. I would say now that I'm in the creator economy more deeply, I think a lot of it has to do with culture as well, which also scares away founders and engineers. Like I didn't realize that Hollywood runs on like litigation.

What do you mean by that?

Like the agencies were built off of litigation. Every time, like, you know, something goes wrong in a contract, everyone's solution is like, let's just sue. Like there's a creator where, like when creators, if they don't, we need to get better at this. Like sometimes we give upfronts and, you know, we can't really go and sue a creator if they don't, like it's a bad look, right? It's like, oh, like we gave you an upfront of $100K and you've ghosted us. Like we should sue, but we don't want to be that company.

Um, wow.

But I think the opposite happens where like we can sign a contract and then we realize the creator does something egregious, right? And then we're like, okay, we don't want to work with you anymore. And then they get all mad and they're— and like agencies are, you know, encouraging them to sue us. Uh, we're just like, oh my God, like that is crazy. Yeah.

You live and breathe creators now.

Yes.

What do you think the common through line is of the creators that are successful versus not?

I think the main thing is content. Are you churning out content and are you disciplined about it? I think a lot of people get comfortable because they, you know, they're rolling in brand deals, et cetera. And then one day it just stops, right? Especially nowadays to keep engagement up and to like continue to grow following count. Like I think a lot of creators, like they could be disciplined, but they're perfectionists. And then because they're perfectionists, they won't release that like YouTube video, TikTok video, whatever. that's not to their liking. And that means that instead of like doing 10 videos a day, they're doing like 1 video a week. And they may all be perfect, but that's gonna hurt them because at the end of the day, like something that you might not think is perfect, your audience might not notice. And that could be the video that goes viral.

Are you familiar with the podcaster Joe Budden? I think his name is.

I'm not.

So there was this really interesting article that was just talking about how he has a $20 million a year business from doing Patreon with his podcast.

Oh wow.

Okay.

And you know, something really interesting about our business right now is like we started on social media. I was working with everyone from like Dell, Salesforce, Shopify, like all these amazing brands. Then we launched the podcast and I was like, this is the format I need to do. Like I'm just able to have these insightful conversations, network, meet people, like actually help and like also make it relevant. And so we're in this really interesting spot where it's like the podcast is like number 53 today in the world.

Congrats.

Thank you.

I'm so happy you're recording with me on that day. Um, but I've been really thinking about like what is the content that can be paywalled because when you are creating so much content and it's all for free, you are still reliant on those brand partners, right? So for like someone that has a very similar type of business as to me, like what are you seeing that's successful that people are keeping behind the paywall versus just like growing the audience and putting things out there for free because they're in that build phase?

Yeah, so I think no matter what, you always need to be in a build phase. So I would never tell you like put a paywall on all your content, right? Like you need that distribution on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera, to continue to thrive. I would say every audience is different. For podcasts, what we typically see is there's like an extra podcast episode per week that doesn't get launched on Spotify, or there is like, you know, an extra like 15-minute segment of, um, stuff that's more controversial, um, and that gets released on paywall. For you specifically, I actually think merchandise would do really well because Hot, Smart, Rich is a great tagline.

Thank you.

And for our creators that do happen to just like have great taglines, they make a good amount. Um, let's call it like 5 figures a month on merch. Um, just selling like, you know, embroidered tees, hoodies, etc.

That's amazing. We have to talk offline after, but how many creators are now on Passes?

We have a few thousand.

Wow.

What does that feel like for you to be like the engine behind people making 5, 6, 7 figures like every single year?

Yeah, I would say it's definitely the force that like drives me on my like my Days that I want to go crazy because doing a startup is a roller coaster, I realize like these creators are constantly reaching out to me every single day thanking me, and they're just like, "Oh, you helped me pay off a loan. You helped me buy my first house." Actually, one of our creators in New York, she just bought her first house with passes money. It's amazing. And like, it's just it makes me really happy because I'm like, okay, like we're really helping them. You know. Build their businesses and their careers. Um, and like my long-term goal is like, I would love to really help these creators get to generational wealth. Um, whether that's through, you know, incubating a product like Prime or Mr. Feastables or with the— or Feastables. Um, or whether it's, you know, helping them find the next Uber ramp to invest in.

Can we talk about how interesting it is, like still how creator and celebrities' mentality with equity is very outdated? I would say like I have really struggled getting creators or celebrities to really prioritize equity over cash payments because their brain is just wired to like take in as much money as possible. Because there's like a— we hear there's like a life cycle to creators, right? What would you say to the creators or the brands listening to this that are hesitant to take equity or to give equity to creators to get them over that hump to be like, this is how you actually start building generational wealth?

Yeah, so I actually think the problem lies within the agency management industry. A lot of these contracts don't give managers or agents 20% when they get equity, which makes them less likely to encourage people to take equity deals. And I've seen this firsthand. It drives me absolutely insane. Actually, the first company I wanted to build before Passes— I was deciding between this idea and Passes— was a more standardized way for brands to To work with creators and give them equity, because there is no standardized way to do it. I was like, we could create like some form of a YC safe for creators and brands that's like modular but reusable, and make everyone's lives easier. That being said, I quickly learned that creators listen to like whoever makes them like money, right? So the only way I could even execute that vision was if I became the one that made creators more money than their agencies and managers. So you know we're getting to that point, which is great.

Wow, that's amazing.

Yeah, but I actually think like the like limited lifeline means that creators do actually want to get equity more because equity is where generational wealth is created. I think for brands, it's just an easy sell, right? Like the amount of money you're going to be spending on marketing, like you would then spend on a creator instead because they don't have the same customer acquisition costs. Like a lot of the customer acquisition cost is zero dollars versus like you know you could be doing ads, etc., but that might not convert as well. Well and like might not have as much of a cult following. For example, like Rhode would have never gotten to where it was with just ads. Like it needed to be Hailey Bieber creating that culture and that movement. Um, and then to creators, if you believe in your audience, like you believe you can drive audience to the product and create a cult following, why are you not betting on yourself? Like, look at every single person that became a, like, you know, billionaire. Um, it wasn't through cash, it was through equity.

That's so true, from the queen herself.

Thank you.

What is your favorite creator-founded brand?

Okay, so I actually don't really use any products per se, if that makes sense. I don't use lip gloss, lip balm, um, I don't eat candy. I just— if I had to choose, I think just because I love energy drinks I actually really like Prime because, you know, it has a lot of caffeine. It works as a great mixer for my tequila.

Yeah.

So Prime, if you want to sponsor my birthday party, let me know because Red Bull wants to sponsor. I'll take you guys instead.

Wait, is this Lucy Palooza?

Oh yeah.

Okay.

Can we talk about that too? Because so Palm Tree Crew just raised $215 million. Well, they just raised a $250 million valuation and I was like, Lucy could totally commercialize Lucy Palooza in the same way. Have you ever thought about that?

So I think I've thought about starting a festival brand similar to Palm Tree Crew, and I'm actually investor in Palm Tree Crew.

Okay, love that.

Yeah, yeah.

But I wouldn't commercialize Lucy Palooza because that's just you know my birthday, and I would never be able to because Lola Palooza would sue me.

Okay, but like something like that is something I could see you thriving at.

Oh, I'm totally considerate, and I actually just don't understand how people. 'Cause this year I'm definitely gonna lose money on Lucy Palooza, but that was because I decided I just didn't wanna spend the money or spend the time, like, you know, getting sponsors, et cetera. But every year I've ran Lucy Palooza profitable.

And this is somewhat related to obviously what you're doing at Passes, right? Because you have a lot of creators there, they're able to enter into the world of Lucy. Like, how does the flywheel of everything that you're doing kind of come together in those moments?

Yeah, so I think that, um, With creator platforms especially, there's platform retention, but then there's emotional retention. And because the creator economy is such a relationships-driven business, that's very important. And the way you actually build close friendships and relationships with creators is face-to-face time. So Lucypalooza is just one of those events where we get to spend time hanging out with our creators. They get to meet each other. They get to, you know, hang out with me and a friend. Friend setting, and everyone really enjoys it. I would also say it's like a really great acquisition funnel as well, just because we'll invite creators that may not be on Passes that are interested in joining, and they see the community, they feel the community, and that emotional retention kicks in, and they're like, oh, I want to come do more of these.

That's amazing. Do you guys leverage AI at all at Passes?

All the time, yes. We actually have some AI tools on the platform. We're building agents right now for creators And yeah, I mean, we use it internally as well.

That's amazing. I feel like you're an AI expert. I've actually never gotten to sit down and talk to one. If someone is listening that just uses ChatGPT and they're really good at that, what is the next thing that they can be doing to elevate and enhance their productivity relating to AI?

I mean, that really depends on what they want to be doing, um, with their, like, what exactly their job is, I guess. Um, like, for example, if they're a lawyer— like, I don't even want to say if they're a lawyer— like, if they're a founder, right? Um, they could literally— I create business plans on ChatGPT, but like, right now, like, one of the main use cases I use it for to reduce legal fees is I'll drop in documents and have it poke holes, like figure out what edits need to be made and summarize them for me so I don't have to spend like $2,000 an hour on lawyers.

That's crazy.

Yeah. And then I think a lot of contracts, it's just like you, like a lot of contracts don't need to be airtight, right?

Yeah.

Because chances are nothing's going to go wrong and I will draft contracts on ChatGPT too, so I don't have to ask my lawyer to.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

So, okay, you obviously know my boyfriend. He has a fund that has a thesis similar to like when the iPhone came out. They were like, this is why there is all of these unicorns like Coinbase and Uber and Airbnb, because it's like a computer in your pocket. Their thesis now is that the ripple effects of AI are going to create the next decacorn companies. What is your response to that thesis? Do you agree?

I agree.

I mean, I think AI is helping helping people run companies leaner. I really do believe that there is going to be like, you know, a one-person company one day that's run on AI that's a unicorn. Even right now, like I'm seeing how we can keep headcount lean because of AI, right? We're figuring out like where to optimize. And because it's so much leaner to run a company now with AI and it'll continue to be leaner easily, like the next decacorns are going to be AI companies, or at least like companies that really utilize AI Do you think though that this fear of people being afraid to lose their jobs is going to be the reality? I think that AI is going to make the very best people better at their jobs, right? Like for example, if you are a designer, AI can help you generate 1,000 different logos and you're probably going to choose one and edit it and that will be like the logo. Um, but you have to be the top of your field and you're gonna have to have taste. If you're like a mid-level, entry-level employee, yeah, AI is going to probably replace you.

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Scary but true. And I think it's so good for people to get ahead of it. What do you recommend someone listening to this do to like— like, are there courses that they can take or people to follow or like, how do you continue to educate yourself? Obviously, you're You're an expert, but like talking to more of a beginner, how can they get educated on where AI is going and how they can benefit from it?

Yeah, well, first I would say start using AI tools, um, and start getting really good at prompting and figure out how you can make your job more efficient with AI. Because if you're able to be that 10x employee right now because of AI, and I have so many, like all my designers are utilizing AI to be 10x designers right now. You're gonna be much more efficient for the company, right? So you're going to not be part of the layoffs. And then I would say start really honing in on like creative skills, soft skills, et cetera. 'Cause at the end of the day, like AI might be able to like automate outbound sales, but it's gonna be human building that relationship and signing the contract.

Do you use AI at all for your personal life?

I will say I like definitely will use it when like I even know how to say it. Like when I got like nervous, I'll like you know screenshot text messages and throw it into AI. I will say that like different AIs are like like Grok I think is more realistic. ChatGPT like will just say you're right about everything. Like it'll always be on your side. I have a friend who Like, he just believes he's seen, like, you know, numbers and stuff everywhere and it means something. And ChatGPT will be like, you're not crazy, like, it is true. Like, stuff like that, right? Um, or if you throw in, you know, a conversation, you're like, does he like me? Like, Grok will be like, no, he doesn't like you, get over him. While ChatGPT will be like, of course he likes you. Um, ChatGPT will not hurt your feelings.

Is that because they're training model to react that way?

I think there's probably some parameters. Yeah.

That's so interesting. Yeah, I use ChatGPT to do my color theory analysis, which was actually phenomenal. It like totally elevated my appearance. I truly became like hot, smarter, and richer because of it. They were like, stop wearing gold jewelry, um, don't buy these makeup products anymore, like you should dye your hair 3 colors darker. And I feel like truly I became better looking when I did it.

Wow.

It was crazy because I wanted I've wanted to do it in, in Korea for so long. Haven't been able to get it to go there. And I was like, I'm just gonna do it with ChatGPT. And it fully changed my appearance. It was actually crazy. Mm-hmm. I also use it to structure my days because probably not to your extent, but I do a lot of different things. What does your day in the life typically look like?

I don't have a typical day in the life. Everyone always asks me this. I think the one consistent thing is like, I'm going to Barry's. like early in the morning, right? I think the most typical that you can expect is I'm meeting with my product and design team daily because I want to see like, you know, where we are on certain features in a roadmap, you know, get in and modify the UX and the UI earlier on rather than, you know, them wasting a month designing something and it not being right. So that's something that I prioritize. I would say that I get in with like our like social marketing, customer success, and sales team on a regular basis to see like where we are in conversations with creators, agencies, what's good, what's bad, what's at risk. And other than that, it is up in the air. Like today I'm filming a podcast. Yesterday I like spoke at Forbes. Tomorrow— this is more of a for-fun thing— tomorrow I'm walking a fashion show.

Are you allowed to say for who? Alexander Wait, I love the shoes. I noticed it as soon as you came in. Is this the first fashion show you've walked in?

Yeah, it's so random because I'm like, I'm not even in fashion.

Are you nervous?

Not really, no. Okay, I love that. Yeah.

How many phones do you have?

Um, I have one, but I just got 2 new phone numbers, so when the iPhone 17 comes out, I'm grabbing more.

Love that. I feel like you need a few phones for different things in your life.

Yeah, at this point I do. I'm like, there's too many people that, you know, have my phone number and just will not stop texting me.

Um, okay, I want to end with some rapid fire. I could talk to you really all day, but I just feel like you're gonna have some really good answers here. Okay, you can only pick one for the rest of your life: DJing or coding?

DJing.

Really?

Yeah, I actually, um, because I view myself more as a product designer than an engineer, which is why I double majored in computer science and HCI. And I did start off with jobs, but I actually moved to product design, um, pretty early on in my career, um, for multiple reasons. Actually paid a lot more, but I enjoyed it more as well. Okay. Yeah.

New York or LA?

Ooh, um, LA.

Yeah, why?

Why? Um, the weather's great all the time. I think it's, uh, a great place to just like work. I think that what I like about LA, I think I get bored easily, right? So the problem when I was living in Miami and New York was everything felt routine, if that makes sense. Like, I had my favorite restaurants, my favorite bars, my favorite clubs. Like, I was going to Brooklyn Mirage every weekend. There was nothing else for me. And in LA, it's just so boring on like a regular day-to-day, but there's so many pop-up events because Because there's so many brands, there's so many, you know, like, because I think it's the influencer-driven culture, honestly. So brands come to LA and just do random events, and I never really know what I'm doing on any given day. Like, some weeks I'll do absolutely nothing. Some weeks I'm like, oh, like, I should go to this thing. Um, it keeps me on my toes.

I like that. But don't you hate how far away you are from everything in the world?

I live in West Hollywood. Everything's close.

No, but I mean, like, if you want to go to France. It's like 11 hours versus 6 if you live in New York.

I do hate that.

Yes, right?

Yeah, that's the worst part.

Brings me to my next question. You can only have one for the rest of your life. I think I know the answer, but private jet or private chef every single day?

Private jet, easy.

Really?

Yeah.

But do you prioritize like having a healthy home-cooked meal, or you're like, I'll eat whatever is in front of me?

I love McDonald's. I am not healthy.

I can tell that you and Paris are friends. Because she like loves Taco Bell and Domino's and McDonald's.

Yeah, no, the Mexican pizza is fire. I'm really not healthy. Like, I'm not someone that counts my calories. I like, I prefer junk food over healthy foods. I actually don't eat vegetables. I get my vegetables in gummy form.

But then what is it about berries that is— so it's not for the health benefits. Like, is it for something else that you go to so religiously?

Oh, I would say it's a mix of things. So I really love music. And it's a really great way to just like start my day. I think it keeps me disciplined, right, in a routine. Because I, yeah, I think that once you start making an excuse, then you like continue to make more excuses. And I can guarantee that like I'm going to get more work done when I go to Barry's. It gives me energy in the day. So it's like an extra cup of coffee. I really like music. I'm very competitive. So I like just being better than everyone else in class.

That's amazing.

I'm definitely teacher's pet. I love being teacher's pet. I'm not gonna— I always love being teacher's pet.

Thanks, Pat.

And then I think that like as a founder, you know, you can put so much effort into something and you don't see improvement versus when you work out, like what you input is like, you see output. So I think it keeps me sane as well. I think it's a community. Like in LA, it is hard to make genuine friends. And at Barry's, like the type of person that goes to Barry's at like 6, 7 AM in the morning, especially the ones that double, there are a lot of people that double there. They're like real human beings with real jobs.

I know you're walking in your first fashion week tomorrow, or fashion show tomorrow, but I feel like your next role is going to be the global ambassador of Barry's Bootcamp, if they haven't done that already.

No, they haven't. They won't even— they won't give me a single share.

What?

It sucks.

I know.

I get nothing. I get no discounts. I get no referral fees.

Like—

I swear you need to become like the global Barry's ambassador.

I know. Like someone told me the other day, actually one of my employees was like, my sister Watched your story and bought a hundred pack because of you.

Yeah.

And I'm like, Joey, where's where's my referral fee here?

Well, I will be honest. Like I used to go to berries all the time, and then I was suffering from crazy hormonal acne, and my doctor was telling me like really high cortisol workouts aren't really good for you right now.

You should stop.

And I just like haven't gone back to it. But seeing you be so dedicated at berries, it like does inspire me to maybe get back to it. So I'm like, I think they should listen to this and maybe make you their first global ambassador.

Maybe you know everyone. Said it, and everyone tells me like, I started Barry's because of you. But you— and Barry's has heard it. Like, every Barry's— like, I can go to a different country and people will recognize me.

That's amazing.

I think I was in like Barry's London or something, and someone like fanboyed over me. Like, one of the trainers and one of the employees.

Do you know how many classes you've done?

Um, yes. So on my, um— I have multiple accounts. On the account that has the Most classes, it's close to $3,300. Holy yeah! But then I have like international accounts are different, so I have like a bunch on my international accounts. I used to make a new account for Barry's every single time I went because it was like you know the first time package. So I just sent them my first time packages and eventually they're like Lucy, you can't do this.

This is Lucy saving money as much as she can.

Exactly.

Okay, this one's gonna be really hard because we just talked about both of them. Barry's Bootcamp or Lucy Palooza?

Oh, Bears Boot Camp easily.

What?

Yeah, I don't care about Lucy Palooza that much.

Okay, that's crazy.

No, Lucy Palooza is for me to give a good time to other people. I'm usually stressed, but like, I think I get happy being around like happy people and being able to provide like that community experience. So I do it for others, but like, I'm usually just like at the door trying to run the show.

You're just— I saw like last week on your story, you were like, please don't ever DM me, I am like gonna be DJing, I'm not coming to the door. I was like, that's a great boundary because otherwise people will just push it.

Yeah, and that was the part I really didn't want to throw, so I was like, I'm doing this because I accidentally agreed to do it.

Okay, uh, last one: live music or traveling? You can only pick one for the rest of your life.

Oh, that's hard. Um, how often would I be traveling and how often would I be seeing like your, your life as it stands today? How would I see live music if I can't travel?

It would only be in your city.

It'd only be in my city?

I mean, you live in LA, so it's not bad. You do get some good shows.

No, I would have to move to New York.

Okay, so New York or traveling for the rest of your life?

Oh my God, I'd have to be like— I think I would just move to New York and live music.

Oh my goodness. Okay, I love that.

Terrible though.

I know, how crazy is that?

I know, because I'm like, okay, if I go to New York, like, there's such good music around New York all the time. Yeah, versus LA. Yeah.

Okay, we have to end with what are you wearing? Like from sunglasses to shoes to the outfit, just rattle off what you put on today.

Okay, well I got these free sunglasses. I think they're from Jay Balvin.

Jay Balvin.

So thank you. This is my Pikachu USB necklace. It has all my music. I'm creating my like DJ set for Forbes Under Thirty. I'm opening up for Blackpink. Fun fact, but Rose from Blackpink, not the entire. Blackpink squad. And then this is Fendi, the top and the pants. This bracelet is from TikTok Shop.

Love.

And then an AP watch, Jacob Co handcuff.

Love.

Yeah.

And then Alexander Wang shoes, which we're gonna see you in walking the show tomorrow.

Yes.

Lucy Guo, thank you so much for coming on Hot Smart Rich. If people aren't already following you and are obsessed with you, they will be now.

Where can they find Um, just on Instagram, Guo for it. You know, like, go for it, but Guo for it.

Love it. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for listening, HSR. Please rate, review, and subscribe, and we will see you next time.

Thank you.

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