Episode 8: Amit Sharma of Narvar

Come on into The Room. The Room is a series that lets you get a view into the room where it happened. I'm Claudia Laurie.

And I'm Madison McIlwain, your co-hosts. Sometimes it's the products you don't even know you've used that can be some of the largest businesses. If you've ever shopped at Gap, ordered a Peloton, returned something to Rent the Runway or homedepot.com, you've unknowingly been receiving emails powered by Narvar. Narvar revolutionized post-purchase communication for e-commerce brands by enabling order status tracking, simple clickable FedEx links, and returns experiences for brands everywhere. Our guest today is Amit Sharma, founder and CEO of Narvar. Having grown up in a small town in India and then moving to Mumbai to work in data engineering, Ahmed felt the allure of Silicon Valley like most people in the late '90s. Initially coming to the US at the height of the dot-com boom, his journey to success had some twists and turns like all great founders. From losing his work visa after his first startup's demise to leaving Apple 6 months after his third child was born to start what would become Narvar, Ahmed's tenacious attitude towards disruption has paid off. Ahmed has built a business being used today by 650 retailers across the globe and raised venture capital from top-tier firms such as Forerunner and Accel. In today's episode, we'll explore themes such as embracing ambiguity, what it takes to sell into retail customers, and trusting your gut when people tell you your product is a feature. Let's open the door. Okay, Amit, we're gonna start off by taking a quick selfie cuz that's what we like to do at the beginning of our sessions, if you don't mind.

Of course.

We will smile with that and then get into the questions. So 3, 2, 1. Awesome. Thank you. Could you take us back to your first company you might have started and what that early experience was like being a founder?

Narwhal was not my first company. And in fact, I started the first company almost 20 years ago. That was back in '99, 2000, during the peak of dot-com boom era. I actually co-founded with my roommate. Back then, everything was booming and exciting. We got that entrepreneur bug. And started working on this idea, which was around building a solution for companies so that they can offer loyalty programs or discounts to the end consumers in online and the digital space. So that's how we, we were looking at it. We both were excited and we quit our job and we jumped into it. Well, 2 months later, the whole dot-com bubble burst. Even before we can actually make a pitch deck or start raising money. To make matters worse, I had to leave the country since I was on a work visa. Well, you can't be in the US when you don't have work. So we actually, both of us, we packed our bags and we went back to India thinking that maybe we can apply this model to the Indian market. So we worked almost for a year and soon the realization sunk in that this is not going anywhere. And we decided to wrap it up after a year. And starting to look for a job in 2001, probably.

Wow, that is a crazy story. Had this dream and then the macro environment, not too dissimilar from now, really said this is not the right time. And due to your citizenship and where you're from originally, you had to go back home to try to build this company over again. I am so curious about how you like just worked through that disappointment and then got back up.

Basically, you know, you're young and you have a bunch of energy and excitement. Sooner or later you look at your bank account and say, there's nothing there. So even before you apply for a master's program or a degree, you need to earn your living. So actually applied back for a job, got a job in the US, and I came back to San Francisco and working again. So Duke was few years later from that time.

I wanted to set the stage as well for our listeners, many of whom were probably born around the time that you were doing your first company. You know, the internet and shopping on the internet was really just getting started in the late '90s. Amazon was founded in '96. You came up with your discounts and pricing idea in 1999. I'm guessing William Sonoma, when you joined around the 2003 mark, also was just getting their e-commerce website up and running. And so could you just share a little bit more about the landscape of e-commerce and the digital consumer in the early 2000s and late '90s?

But overall, I mean, the landscape was companies were not all mature or sophisticated online. When speaking of Williams-Sonoma, they are one of the largest catalogers in the US. They, they print, you know, 300 million copies every year. So this is massive. All these companies were figuring out how best to engage consumers, how best to merchandise their products in 2000 and early 2000s.

You mentioned that you worked on supply chain optimization at Williams-Sonoma and then operations at Walmart, and then you were working at, at Apple as a PM for their online store. And so you really had end-to-end experience across both physical and digital retail. You must have seen a few early trends that really motivated you to start Narvar. Can you walk us through what some of those insights were that really gave you the conviction to go ahead and say, great, I've had all of this awesome experience, but I think I have something special that I really wanna dedicate my life to?

I consider myself very fortunate that I was able to work at some of the most amazing companies and my overall observation was all of these companies are fairly customer obsessed. At all of these companies, we would spend a lot of time, energy, and money, this digital space, you know, looking at homepages, product pages, etc. And all of these experiences that were built, were building online to convince consumer to do e-commerce or online shopping. However, the after-purchase experience was often overlooked or massively underinvested. And the best example that I could think of is like dating. It's all fun and excited when you go on a first date, but then the other person starts to ghost you. And companies were doing something very similar. And it's all fun and exciting to place your first order online, and customers are really eager to receive the items that they buy. However, customers, you and I, would find ourselves in a place that we have to go and chase the companies to figure out where is my order, when can I get it, how do I return it. And that's the gap that I saw, that lot of focus on driving and adoption and purchase online, but not much in the post-purchase space. And I thought this is an interesting problem to solve, and this could be a big opportunity down the line. And that gave me that idea, kernel of an idea that, hey, this is something worth exploring.

So it sounds like you had this aha moment that you thought, hey, why is no one else doing this? Did you look around and ask that question and see if Apple would consider changing this? How did you think about maybe building that from within? Or was your initial reaction, I need to leave and go change this?

Madison, it was actually the former. Again, I was fortunate to work with literally Fortune 1 and Fortune 2 company, both at Walmart and Apple. And the initial thought was indeed to build something for the companies, which we did, which both at Walmart and at Apple we did. And that led to the second thought that, hey, if this is important and these companies are paying attention and investing, instead of building for each company one at a time, this is an opportunity to building some service that everyone can leverage and use it so that you create that environment or ecosystem so that everybody is able to provide a world-class post-purchase experience.

Sounds like you had some early market validation because of your day job and thought, all right, I think other people are gonna wanna use this. Let's maybe get some money and build it. I know you had this other startup. Did you raise venture money for that initial idea in 1999?

That one was Essentially dead on arrival because by the time we started, I swear within 2 months, and I may not get the dates right, but in 2000, within 2 months in March or early springtime, and then the market crashed. So we couldn't even effectively pitch to VCs to raise money.

And Narvar, this is what, like 2012, 2013? You're thinking, I've gotta go build this, let's go get some money. Walk us through that process of hitting Sand Hill Road and looking for an investor given you had this idea you knew was important to large retail customers.

But that journey was also not that straightforward. So I got kicked out of the country for my first startup and I almost lost my house starting Narwhal. And to give you some context, right? So by then I was married, I had 3 kids. I was at Apple working on some of the amazing products and roadmap. And my youngest daughter was almost maybe 6 months old when I started to work on Narwhal. And at the same time, by the way, my wife also decided to quit her job to take care of our 3 kids. And I had this aha moment that there is something there. So I quit my job as well from Apple and started to build on this product and starting to speak with some potential customer.

And did your wife say, what are you doing, Amit? Like, get back to work.

For sure, right? I mean, but here is the thing though, when you have 3 kids, especially the youngest one is 6 months, we both were scattered brain for some time, not thinking that, okay, you may have to plan for worst case scenarios. You know, that optimism is always there with you that, hey, you potentially may have something that you are compelled to work on. And especially as you mentioned that I saw the benefit at Apple in terms of how customer experience could really drive lifetime value as well as loyalty to the products and to the company. And being in the retail at that time, I was also lucky enough to speak with other companies. And the initial response from prospective customers were, this is quite positive. Then I thought, oh, if that's the case, then fundraising should be easy. But boy, I was wrong. I was, however, actually able to get a lot of meetings, VC meetings. I must have done 20+ meetings. But in general, the feedback was two themes. One was, hey, this is a feature, not a product. Or the typical feedback I'll get is that, hey, this doesn't seem to be a big enough space. Tried everything to build the product, as, and we were getting some customers on, but almost for a year could not get the funding done. And it was some parallels to what I saw with the first startup. In this case, because we were seeing customer and customer traction and adoption, I wanted to go to the next step. And in this case, since there was no funding, I had to take it to the final resort. Of course, with a blessing from my wife that I had to dip into our retirement money and take a huge line of credit on our house to just keep us afloat and see to the next phase of Narwhal. First year around, again, almost 18 months, could not raise money. But since we were raising— sorry, signing up customers, second time around, and this was must be now 18 months into it, I decided to go a friends and family round. With that, I had a target of raising $250,000. And as you can imagine, at that time when you are in that early stage, people are not betting on your idea, people are betting on you. And my thesis is that they just saw our dire situation and just gave us the money versus looking at our, our product or business model. You know, we ended up raising $500,000 in our friends and family round in the second time around.

It's incredible that you had a network around you who could support you and see how passionate you were about building and solving this problem for customers and retailers everywhere. And clearly those early investors were wrong about this being a feature, not an actual product and company. 2020. Given today you've raised over $63 million from hallmark venture firms such as Accel, Forerunner, as well as, uh, Commerce VC, you've really been able to carve out an entire post-purchase journey and product line that has revolutionized your, your customers.

And clearly from that initial round of $500,000, you were able to deploy that capital to really go after more customers and continue to build your business. From what I understand, you really started with going after enterprise customers and solving post-purchase engagement for those types of customers. Right now you have over 650 enterprise customers such as Gap, Levi's, Peloton, Sephora, Home Depot, so many household names. Walk us through what it was like going after those first few enterprise accounts. What did that early sales cycle look like?

You're right. You know, we were going after the enterprise segment from early on, but we also knew that the sales cycle cycle would be long and it could be 6 to 9 months. We took a two-pronged approach from our early days. As we were engaging enterprise companies, we also went hard on up-and-coming companies early as well. We used to call them cool kids from New York. Some of the brands that, you know, are big now— Warby Parker, Bonobos, Run the Runway, and Birchbox. There's a lot of amazing companies that came from New York. So we were able to engage. These companies are known for not only customer experience, but very amazing products. And this way, not only we were able to see, show traction to enterprise companies, and we are making progress on our product and launching new features, but also showing them the external validation. So that definitely helped us pretty much early on to stay focused on enterprise while showing progress. Couple of early customers, enterprise customers, were Urban Outfitters, the whole Urban Group, Anthropologie, and Baholden. And Home Depot, as you mentioned, is another one that signed up with us early on. By the way, funny story with Home Depot. They must be really, really early customers. We were working from a shared space out of San Mateo, a plug-and-play center, you know, similar to WeWork. And typically you know, we would orchestrate our meetings in a way that we can show them our products. We will fly to the customers. But in this particular case, Home Depot insisted that they visit our office and we must be sub-10 people and we're talking about Home Depot. I don't know the exact number. They have like 400+ thousand people including their stores. So we were quite nervous how they're going to react to a startup company with sub-10 people. So what we did with that is that instead of booking a common meeting room or a private room, We actually conducted our meeting on the open floor where everybody is sitting. So we came across that we have 50 people because all those shared desks and cubicles versus just 5 or 7 Narvar employees. There's a buzz, excitement, energy when you are in that, you know, shared workspace model. And that actually helped us close that deal with Home Depot. The way we are able to work in an open space environment and make that happen.

Who were you selling to during the sales cycle? Who were the folks from Home Depot who came into the office and said, okay, this is this is a startup, but what you're building is awesome and we want to buy it.

In a large enterprise company, you know, you have quite a few stakeholders and typically you will see people who are responsible for customer experience, customer marketing, operations. And those are some of the key stock stakeholders that we typically work with in terms of showing the benefits and, and the value of our products and capabilities.

That's awesome. I feel like your story around leveraging this large bullpen that wasn't even yours is really the definition of Silicon Valley's fake it till you make it, right? You had to show you were bigger than you could seem, but it paid off, right? Now you have all of these brands who you mentioned, north of 650, both on these early cool kids from New York. Now we call them direct-to-consumer brands, legacy retailers such as my former employer Gap, who, that's actually how we met. I would imagine. As this continues to grow, especially in light of this year where e-commerce, according to McKinsey, has grown 10 years in digital customer adoption in the 3 first months of quarantine and shutdown due to people still wanting to shop but being homebound. How have you at Narvar thought about the differences in these customer cohorts and evolving your product to actually meet the needs of the Gaps of the world and the Everlanes of the world?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences as well. The biggest challenge working with two different cohorts of customers is the context switching, and that happens within Narvar. So when you have either me or my employees, you know, constantly thinking about enterprise customers or up-and-coming growth companies, a lot of differences. The business needs are different, product setup and configurations are different, you know, how we support and provide insights to these companies Those things are very different. While we figure out and we have our own struggles in building those processes and systems, we tend to focus on commonalities. Common theme is, as you mentioned, Madison, the customer needs and customer experience. So looking at especially post-COVID, consumers need confidence in terms of when can they receive their goods. They need the peace of mind that if there are delays in terms of getting their orders, you proactively inform them, you tend to focus on those areas while we put more systems or processes on our side to better support two different types of customers.

One question for you. You mentioned that when you were starting, there were the cool kids from New York who are now pretty much household names. I know e-commerce is accelerating tremendously. You have Instagram, you have Shopify. In your opinion, who are the new cool kids from New York that you're building for?

This is, you know, definitely keeps us on our toes, right? I mean, as you mentioned, it's not just the brands that are coming up, but how they actually come to life. They're coming to life on Instagram, they're coming to life on Pinterest, they're coming to life on WhatsApp, and now TikTok, right? So you have to really understand various different ways these boutique and really strong companies are coming to life. How can we best serve in these environments, and which is not easy, to be honest, right? Because, you know, if you are an Instagram brand, how would you like to be notified on your order? Would it be an email, SMS, or within the Instagram stories? So these are things that you think about, like how these channels are coming to life and how consumer behavior is continuing to, you know, evolve and change through all these different ecosystems.

I'm thinking about the stakeholders you've had from the retailer side and then ultimately the consumer side, but there's one other interesting stakeholder in the Narvar ecosystem, and that's the carriers. You work closely with FedEx, UPS, USPS, Canada Post to help actually provide this real-time order tracking for your end customer as well as the retailers. Can you talk us through the journey to getting them on board and onboarded into the Narvar ecosystem?

Absolutely. I mean, that's an integral part of our product and, and our ecosystem, as you rightly mentioned. Like anything else, you have to find that unifying theme or goal for all of our carrier partners or 3PL and logistics partners. It is in our best interest that the end consumer has an amazing experience so that they can come back and actually have, you know, more of that experience with the brands and retailers they shop. Same the way we talk to retailers, we talk to carriers as well, and they are quite sophisticated themselves and they continue to work on new capabilities, new features in terms of bringing this convenience and confidence to end consumer. I can give you a very specific example. Post-COVID, and if you look at returns, for example, you know, as everybody's working from home now, customers don't have access to printers. So if you want to return something, you can't even print a returns label. And we have seen upwards of 20 to 25% of consumers now expect a sort of a QR code or a mobile code so that they can actually go to a carrier, whether it's FedEx, whether it's UPS, whether it is US Post Office, so that they can help facilitate print that label. And all of our carrier partners, both here in the US and in Europe, are highly motivated to help consumers so that they can actually provide those services and experiences on their locations.

I have a funny story for you with that feature, Amit. You know, when I was at Gaff, I was the product manager who owned our relationship with Narvar. Shout out to Abe Park, my account executive, we were looking at implementing some of these features like printerless returns that you mentioned, and I was in charge of bringing that feature request to our web general managers across our brands, Athleta, Banana Republic. And so in that meeting one day, I had this whole slide. I talked about why no one has printers anymore. I was planning on talking about that, mind you. And you know, I'm in my mid-20s. And so I opened the meeting and I said, who has printers anymore? And everyone around the table was in their mid-40s and everyone looked at me and said, Everyone has printers. And that was when I was like, oh, okay, we are a different generation because I truly do not have this item in my home and this feature perfectly meets my need.

It's not just a generations thing, but if you live in an urban environment, you have, you know, smaller apartments, you need to be very efficient in terms of using space and how do you actually you know, be efficient. Uh, so there are a lot of other factors that do play, uh, in terms of, um, meeting the consumer's needs.

I think with this generation, we are known for instant gratification and being able to complete tasks at the click of a button and having the outcome immediate. And I think returns is one of those things where people still really find that a frictionful process. I mean, printing out a label, putting your jeans, sending it off, and I think the customer experience around that flow is really driving engagement, even though that's probably something a lot of brands don't really see as a P0. Could you talk us through how you've invested in a couple of magical experiences that are generally overlooked by some of your customers and how you've actually been able to drive material business outcomes by implementing a feature that is focusing on smoothing out that customer experience.

I mean, returns is a great example, right? So, you know, we start our shopping journey online and buy something now, but now we have to deal with a physical environment where we have to now either print a label, find packaging. Oftentimes packaging, you, you, you may discard packaging on, and you know, you give an example of jeans. Oftentimes those products come in a poly bag and if you open it, you can't put it back in there. A lot of issues. And the other piece is that, you know, where do you go and drop off? You may not have a nearby drop-off location. What we think about is that how do I remove those friction points? So instead of printing something, if I can send you a QR code and you can walk into any of the carrier locations nearby and they can print a label. The second step is that if you don't have original packaging or packaging at home, they can pack it for you. That's the second piece of it, like remove the friction in terms of packaging or boxing there. The third piece is that as businesses are thinking about returns, you and I as consumers are thinking about refund. I want my money back and I want it now. And that's another area that is overlooked. If we can inform the merchant that, hey, the customer has just dropped off their item, then there should be a way to refunding customer immediately. So these are the things that we work on and enable through our platform so that we can offer that awesome experience to end consumer while reducing overhead on the companies as well, because you can streamline their operations at the same time.

I think what you've been doing at Narvar is even though you are a B2B software company, you've built partnerships with physical players such as Walgreens, where you have created Narvar Concierge that has been a feature and an experience that merges these two worlds that Claudia is talking about together.

There is that seamless transition between, you know, physical world to a digital world and back to a physical world. And they all play a role in enabling those experiences, especially with Walgreens. I mean, these are, you know, essential locations, especially during COVID times. They are conveniently located. It's not just then you are dropping off a return, but, you know, you may have to pick up some last-minute item. So there are a lot of other things you think about. How do you look at the daily lives of consumers and then simplify those experiences in a meaningful fashion?

You mentioned the obvious, which is the current state of the world. COVID has really changed how our society operates, and it's been a really difficult time for both businesses, but consumers and just society overall. You mentioned once that embracing ambiguity is one of Narvar's core values and one of your core values. Finding the space where comfortable meets vulnerable is a really powerful force that helps you move forward. Looking back, what was a moment of ambiguity in founding Narvar that was challenging to work through? And moving forward during a period of global uncertainty, what advice do you have for tackling that ambiguity? Ambiguity.

Startup is nothing but full of ambiguity. Early on, while I was looking at this space, it was a key moment to figure out what that first step would look like. The thinking was, you know, you have retailers, they have their own set of operational challenges in terms of delivery and returns and notifications, and consumers also are seeing the pain points in getting timely updates or easy process. So the question there was, you know, how do you build your model that can scale down the line from revenue perspective, solving the right solutions and problem, and what does the sequence look like? And for me, I decided to solve for the immediate customer pain point, knowing full well that customers are not paying it, uh, paying for the service. Retailers are paying for the service, but bringing them up to speed, creating that education, bringing them all the use cases, saying that, hey, that's the right approach versus solving immediate retailers' issues or challenges. So that was one thing that was fairly nebulous and ambiguous that I had to wrestle with the first step for building the product and the right business model. Now, in terms of your second question part, like going forward, there's a lot of uncertainty. That's how, you know, we look at one of our core values of Embrace Ambiguity as how do, how can we be comfortable while being vulnerable? And that doesn't mean you don't have a little bit of an anxiety or you don't have questions, but you have to get in that frame of mind that in order to get that confidence, in order to be who you are, it's okay to be vulnerable. And it's not easy. It doesn't come natural. But if you work on it, you get a little bit more comfortable and relaxed, and that allows you to make right decisions. So, and it's the daily thing that even I practice now, and that helps me at least do my best in terms of thinking it through and use the best judgment in terms of making the right decisions.

It sounds like you have a wife and a family who's been incredibly supportive and also embraced the ambiguity of your role and what these past 7 years have been on the journey to establishing Narvar. Could you share more about how your 6-month-old has grown up and what it's been like balancing being both a high-growth founder and CEO with being a dad and a husband?

First of all, it's a constant struggle, and instead of a work-life balance, it's work-life struggle, and, and you just have to Balance gives you a notion that everything is in harmony. It is not, and it's a constant struggle. So you have to just admit it. You know, early on, my wife nudged me to come up with a set of activities that both I and myself and my kids would enjoy. So speaking of our youngest daughter, she is now 9. We now at least make it a point that we go outdoors and then post-COVID, I started to bike. So she also now on the weekends bike with me and time permitting on weekdays as well. So that's one of the ways I engage with her. And my eldest daughter, she's 15 now. And with her, and I'm doing my best to just stay cool. I mean, she's at that age where parents are not cool anymore. So with her, it's also you try to find those rituals, those habit-forming activities that you can do that both of us enjoy. So she being 15, I use my retail knowledge to impress on her and stay her, you know, keep her intrigued. So we talk about Glossier, we talk about Drunk Elephant, and we talk about Birkenstocks. And I do take her shopping. So which is another way for me to just get a little bit sneak preview into her life, what's going on. That's what I've been doing. And those are things that I'm doing to, you know, be with my kids. And my middle son, Nick, he's 13 now. Time permitting, we'll play football or watch sports and find ways to the next video game app that he's playing so that I can learn what's happening in all these new gaming world as well.

So wonderful to hear. It actually really resonates with me. I remember when I was growing up through my teenage years, my dad was always the one going shopping with me, and whenever I wanted to buy something online, he would walk me through the process and check out with me. And now we even have the relationship where I'm teaching him what TikTok is and helping him post on Instagram. So I think that is like a really special bond and really, really special story.

Hopefully one day we'll be having your daughters on our podcast telling their founding story about how their dad impacted them and inspired them to be founders themselves.

Funny, Madison, that you mentioned about my daughters. 2 years ago, or maybe 3 years ago, I was invited to speak at one of our investors' LP meetings, right? So all the LP and investors—

Big time. For those listening, LP means limited partners, and they're very important to venture capitalists.

They are the ones who write checks to venture capitalists, right? So they are absolutely critical to that. And this was in Arizona and Scottsdale. So I decided to bring my eldest daughter with me. This must be 3 years ago now so that we can have some getaway. I can do this event for a day and then we can spend some time after that as well. We must be 6 or 8 speakers throughout the day and a half. And I noticed that there was not a single woman on the panel. So on the spur of a moment, I pulled Anika aside. And I told her, hey, I have a slot, but I won't go up there. You go up there and you pitch Narwhal. And talk about that, right? And she was nervous, anxious, but she did a fabulous job. I think it's recorded somewhere, and I can ask our VCs as well. I said, I'm not coming there. And because Narwhal story is quite relatively easy to explain, we are not a backend SaaS tech companies, so we pared down the slides and she introduced And then I went back up for Q&A and she got standing ovation. And I think the good news there is also the investors actually tweeted about it, acknowledging that how they're gonna do a, you know, a much better job in these small little things that could be subtle but hugely important.

As we wrap up our conversation, we have one Hallmark question that we ask all of our guests, which is, who is a woman in your life that has had a profound impact on you? Specifically in your career journey?

You know, the way I think about it, I would cheat a bit as I look back early on. My mom had a profound effect on my upbringing and my growth, dealing with adversities, you know, having to persevere with tenacity. All those pieces I was able to see her go through her life struggles that, you know, definitely influenced me. Who I am now. But not only just my mom, and if I look at my wife, you know, we've been married for 15+ years now. She's the smart one in the family, so constantly learning the worldview from her. I'm the one with flailing hands and impatient. She's the cool, calm, collected. So, you know, when you have, you know, ups and downs in businesses, how do you actually find your center and be calm? That has absolutely influenced by my wife. And my daughters now, they are bold and fearless. And how do you stay intrigued? And as you mentioned, TikTok and new channels, you have to bring that curiosity. And I learn from my daughters every single day.

That's so wonderful. Thank you so much, Amit, for taking the time to chat with us. We really appreciate it. And it's been awesome learning a little bit more about your early life, your journey in creating multiple startups, and how you are continuing to scale Narvar. And spending time with your family during this uncertain period of time.

I enjoyed our conversation. It was going back in my early life to now what I see it. And often you don't sit and reflect back, but these are the moments that keeps you grounded and humble. There's so much that you can learn and share. And I'm excited to be here and speaking with you both. And I enjoyed our conversation.

Amit, thank you so much for the time. It's just such a treat to get to know you better and for learning more about your story.

No, thank you, Claudia and Madison, for having me. I enjoyed our conversation.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Room, which is actually the season finale episode for our first season. If you enjoyed our conversation or any of our conversations this season, please like and subscribe. Madison and I want to thank you so much for being here. Being here with us our first season. We can't wait for many more conversations with you. Season 2 is coming to you in just a few weeks on February 2nd. We can't wait for you to join us then.

See you soon.

All opinions expressed by Claudia and Madison and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of The5VC.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.

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