S11E4: Transforming Sweet Treats using Clean Ingredients with Kevin McCarthy, CEO of Unreal

the center of what we do and still is in many ways, creating that better-for-you option and familiar forms that people recognize, but making it way simpler than what people are used to, way cleaner ingredients than what people are used to, way less sugar. But most importantly, in our category especially, it has to taste truly unreal, right? You win at the bite, you win when people try it, and you know, it's chocolate.

Welcome to The Room Podcast. I'm Claudia Laurie. And I'm Madison McIlwain.

I'm Madison McIlwain. We are on a mission to open the door to the room where it happens, sharing the stories of some of the world's most iconic founders and funders. We're recording this introduction the week before our 11th season launch at the Forbes 30 Under 30 conference in Cincinnati. After making it onto the 2024 list for media, we've hit multiple milestones, including our 100th episode and our first ever all-day conference. Inside Summit with over 120 attendees July of this year.

Authentic storytelling is core to our community as Madison and I are both founder and funder. It all started as two best friends who met in the heart of San Francisco as product managers in 2018, then realized as we were making career transitions into myself founder and Madison funder, that we wanted to talk to the entrepreneurs that had built great companies. Since starting the podcast in 2020, I founded Pryve, a commerce payments startup raised venture capital, and faced a ton of challenges that I ask our guests. Madison became a partner at Defy VC and was the first institutional investor in my startup and is now at HBS and is a Pear VC fellow, bringing the funder perspective to the table.

Scroll back to find our conversations with the founder and CEO of Zillow, Spencer Raskoff, to Michelle Zatlin of Cloudflare, Grammy Award-winning artist Ciara, and the creator of Next.js and CEO of Vercel, Guillermo Rauch. Everything from consumer to enterprise, we've got you covered. The best way to get to know our community, both online and offline, is by subscribing to the podcast and our newsletter, which you can find at theroompodcast.com. Before we dive into today's story, we have a few short messages from our sponsors. Perkins Coie supports the most innovative entrepreneurs and investors in fast-moving and high-growth sectors, addressing their myriad of legal needs. But the firm doesn't just provide end-to-end legal and business counseling to its startup clients. It also facilitates introductions to key advisors and sources of capital. Perkins Coie's interactive website, Startup Percolator, offers access to programs, resources, and rich dynamic content designed to assist entrepreneurs on their startup journey. To learn more, go to startuppercolator.com and perkinscoie.com.

This podcast is brought to you by Mercury. The banking platform businesses like The Room Podcast use to simplify their finances. It's time banking did more than hold your money. Now it can. With Mercury, you can pay bills in seconds, close the books faster, and even send invoices. Not only does Mercury do away with a patchwork of tools, it eliminates guesswork, giving you complete and accurate visibility into your business's finances, all from one account. Apply in minutes at mercury.com. Welcome back to The Room Podcast. We're excited to continue our season 11 with a special conversation featuring Kevin McCarthy, CEO of Unreal Snacks. While many know Unreal for its delicious, healthier snack options, the story behind its creation is less widely known, and we're eager to take you inside the room where it all began. Unreal Snacks launched in 2010 with a mission to revolutionize the snack industry by offering treats made with real ingredients and significantly less sugar. Kevin and his team aim to create snacks that not only taste great, but also align with healthier lifestyles. In just a few short years, Unreal has gained traction in the competitive snack market, boasting partnerships with major retailers like Whole Foods and Costco. Their innovative approach has garnered attention from both consumers and investors alike, leading to $18 million in venture funding, which has helped fuel their growth. In today's episode, we'll dive into Kevin's inspiring journey, exploring how Unreal Snacks is reshaping the way we think about snacking and health. Key topics in this episode include the challenges of disrupting an industry during an early wave of D2C, how CPG brands find their winning formulation, and how brands like Unreal are thinking about their digital strategy for 2025 and beyond. Let's open the door. Kevin, thank you so much for being in the room today.

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Before we get into the story of Unreal Snacks and how you're leading better chocolate, we really love to start at the beginning. You grew up in the suburbs of Massachusetts. Tell us, how has your upbringing shaped your view of the world?

I grew up in Lynn, Massachusetts. It's a working-class city just a bit north of Boston. It's a city that in many ways has been left behind by a more globalized economy. but also a city that has so much opportunity ahead of it. Growing up there taught me the value of hard work, self-determination, and the importance of being the captain of your own ship in many ways. But I think it also inspired me to pursue a career journey that was really geared towards helping to improve the lives of as many people as I, as I could. That, that really formed my mentality and view of the world in many ways. And, you know, carry that with me every single day as I, you know, try to fulfill that mission of my own.

And so in that vein of early identity, did you always think you were going to become a CEO one day?

No, I feel like my view on a career is that it's more of an adventure in many ways. And it was constantly asking, are you growing? Are you being challenged? Are you authentically having fun? I originally thought I was going to be a professional baseball player, and then that dream fell away and had to figure out something else and then wanted to go into biomedical engineering, which that quickly changed once I started to understand what it takes to do that. But then just fell in love with the concept of leadership and what it can be and what it means. And how everyone can be a leader. It doesn't matter what your title is. That's driven my professional journey in many ways.

Yeah, you're absolutely right how like leadership can take on so many forms. And I think in many ways you've had a very different experience in your career compared to now leading an F&B CPG brand. So let's fast forward a little bit to college and your early career. You attended Harvard for undergrad. I'm an alum from undergrad. Madison's currently at HBS, so go Crimson. You studied government and then went on to become a field director for a congressman. Tell us about your early passion for government and how that shaped your early career.

Yeah, that was never the intention when I was entering college. It was really, I'm going to go into cancer research and everything. And then I took my first math midterm of college and I did terrible. I got a 51. And I thought, you know, everything's graded on a curve here, so it's fine. And I met with the professor and he said I was the lowest score in the whole class. I was like, maybe it's time to reroute a bit here. And, you know, I kind of was forced to take a step back. And frankly, Harvard can be an intimidating environment. And it was a tough time in many ways. But I'm like, what do I want to do? How do I want to use this time here? And who do I want to become? And government offered a focus into things that matter, things that touch everyone's life. And frankly, like how humans behave and how the structure and people, how do they interact and how does that drive outcomes? And I dove into that as well as economics a bit. But when pursuing that with mostly a focus on American government in a summer job, I was introduced to this guy's dad who was working with me and the guy's name's Seth Moulton. He was thinking about running for Congress and his dad said, hey, would you like to meet with Seth? You guys seem like you should have some common interests here. And I ended up meeting Seth and he's incredible. Berson. He's a former Marine captain. He served 4 tours of duty in Iraq. Harvard grad at HBS, HKS, and the college, and just really felt like I need to work to help this guy get elected to Congress. So for 2 years in college, I was the first volunteer doing a bunch of stuff. I'd wake up every day at 5:00 AM, read all the newspapers, summarize what was happening in the world, and send that out to the campaign team. Some of my friends who were like, this is a great news recap every day, you know? After graduation, I frankly knew that I just wanted to help get Seth elected. So joined the campaign right after graduation. It was a bit of an odd choice compared to where some of my classmates in college were going, because I was signing up for a job that was going to end in 3 months and I'd have to do it all over again. But it was an incredible experience. It was a very entrepreneurial environment, very much a startup. I mean, you're working 7 days a week, 16, 17 hours a day. No real idea or no guidance of what to do or how to do things, but just here's what you have to go accomplish and go after it. And it was incredible. We ended up challenging an 18-year incumbent within the Democratic Party in the primary. We're very much a long shot to win and we ended up winning, which was an incredibly euphoric experience. And then we won the general election and decided my goal is never to go work in Congress or go to Washington. It was really to get Seth elected with the team, and we did that. Then took the natural progression into a life of confection, which didn't make sense to many people at the time, but that campaign experience was the best possible job for me coming outta college. It was so entrepreneurial and amazing.

You're teasing at this, but what are some leadership or entrepreneurial lessons from your time at the campaign that you employ on a day-to-day currently as CEO of Unreal?

So many. I mean, the principal one being is that you can figure things out for yourself and you don't need to be overly confident in a way that blocks you from learning or being open or growing in ways. But if you're thrown into a problem and you can orient yourself, figure out what needs to be done and go do that, that's leadership in many ways right there. And with Unreal, I assumed this role as CEO when I was 24 years old. The company was much smaller and much more dysfunctional than we are today. I had no training, no guidance of what to do, and had to figure out what do I know, what can I do, what changes need to happen, get those things done. You know, true today of trying to run a much larger business, but still a young person and still have so much to learn. But I think that the right level of self-confidence was the principal thing that I learned from that campaign.

Let's fast forward a little bit to joining Unreal. So it's 2014, you meet the Unreal Stacks team. Probably a much smaller team back then than now. Tell us about your early time before becoming CEO. How did you find this chocolate company?

Great question. When I was on the campaign, I knew that I didn't want to go work in Washington, like I said. So a friend of mine, you know, one of our co-founders, Michael, he was telling me about this company Unreal, which launched and then reworked itself, was kind of relaunching, and it was mission-based within natural food. And I just found it so fascinating. And it was based in Boston. I was actually supposed to go to business school. I did the 2+2 sign-up with HDS, and I was supposed to go to business school, so I needed to find, you know, something to dive into for 2 years before that. It just seemed like the perfect opportunity for me, working in food, working in a category in the grocery store that needs a lot of work and can have a lot of improvement, and to be focused on a mission. And that was more important than anything. So I reached out to the founder, Michael, and had a couple of conversations, offered a job and joined in a really entrepreneurial team. I was, I think, the 4th person here and just did a bunch of everything. It was super scrappy. And again, I had no formal training in business or what things meant. And I was doing a ton of things that I probably shouldn't be doing, like accounting and financial stuff. And I'm like, looking at Khan Academy classes at night, but it was incredible. And I think I was able to deploy a lot of the things I learned on the campaign. It was very much business school, but like way more intense. You actually have, you know, real responsibility inside of the business. So it was incredible during those days.

Actually have real responsibilities. Kevin, you wound me.

I mean that with great respect, but it was like, you just have to figure things out. I remember I was tasked with starting our direct-to-consumer operation, which was very small at the time. We were working with a warehouse in Vermont and I drove up to Windsor, Vermont in the winter to set up the whole fulfillment operation. And we had two people, great people working with us up there, but they were employees of the warehouse. And I remember thinking about how are we going to make these people feel really a part of our company and of our brand because they're working in a warehouse in Vermont. They have no connection formally to us as a business. So I worked there for a week and I remember after a few days, I realized that they didn't know who I was and they were like, are you coming to lunch or can you help out over here? And I'm like, oh no, I work for Unreal. And they're like, oh, I had no idea of that, but created such a strong bond between us for them to be able to really drive forward a lot of our growth with that new direct-to-consumer experience from the fulfillment side. It was just an amazing experience.

For those who don't know, Windsor, Vermont is in the middle of nowhere. I've actually spent some time in both New Hampshire and Vermont and know the town of Windsor. So I'm sure they were also asking the question, what is a better-for-you snack? I didn't even know I needed a better-for-you snack. So it's clear that you were rolling up your sleeves from basically day zero with Unreal, but also careers don't change overnight. So tell us about that. Pipeline from fourth hire to CEO? And what was really the shift when you thought, okay, I think I'm going to be here a while?

Great question. I just poured my heart and soul into the business from day one when I joined. We were growing, we're doing a lot of things right, but the business was also doing a lot of things wrong. It was a bit chaotic, it was a bit disorganized. There was no camaraderie or sense of team or direction where we were going. I think given my role at the time, doing a bunch of things, was able to see the full scope of the business. From sales meetings to going to manufacturing runs, eating 20 peanut butter cups in a day. It sounds way better than it actually is, honestly, but just got a full sense of what the business was going to be, or could be, I should say. But there was no real direction for the company. I just started putting thoughts into what that direction could be and what are the changes we need to make to really create a sustainable business, build a team, and drive growth. I was thinking about, okay, go to business school soon, move on. But the board ended up asking me to lead the business, which was a, a big moment in my life, and I did not expect that. And the answer was, of course, yes.

And what year was that when the board stepped in and said, we'd like you to be CEO?

That was 2016.

Okay.

Wow. I feel like a lot of people in their early career have aspirations of making it to the C-suite. It sounds like you really had that accelerated experience through your own hard work. And willingness to get in there, learn the business, and help grow it. For our listeners who might not be as familiar with what Unreal is, the name is a little bit implying, you guys make chocolate snacks with 100% real ingredients and less sugar, plus it's sustainable. Tell us a little bit more about that original Unreal product and how you guys were shepherding that core customer into your ecosystem.

The company originally launched before I joined. It launched in 2011. In a really big way with a lot of people involved. It launched into 30,000 stores on day one and was really about serving the conventional consumer or consumer who is eating traditional candy brands that everyone knows and having a better-for-you option there. The company grew way too quickly and did a lot of things a few degrees off, but at scale it created a lot of dysfunction and company essentially took itself off the market and relaunched in 2014 when I joined, but The product was always the center of what we do and still is in many ways, creating that better-for-you option on familiar forms that people recognize, but making it way simpler than what people are used to, way cleaner ingredients than what people are used to, way less sugar. But most importantly, in our category especially, it has to taste truly Unreal, right? You win at the bite, you win when people try it. And you know, it's chocolate, it's meant to indulge, it's meant to have enjoyment from that experience. And it's a fun category. It's an emotional category. So the taste of the product, it's so critical and it's really difficult to nail the clean, simple ingredients, the less sugar, as few ingredients as possible and have it taste unreal. It's a difficult trifecta to really hit all those points. But Chris Bronner, who's one of our co-founders, he's a brilliant food scientist and product developer, and he's an incredible product genius behind everything we do product-wise here at Unreal. I like to say I have a good palate, but I don't know how good it is from the product perspective. We launched originally with Nut Butter Cups, Gems, as we call them, candy-coated chocolates, and then carampié and nougat bar and a, uh, essentially a Milky Way bar as well. With the Unreal relaunch in 2014, we more so focused on the nut butter cups and the gems, and we've evolved our product line today to include our dark chocolate coconut bar, our dark chocolate carampié and nougat bar again. And then we just launched Grain Freak chocolate-covered pretzels and chocolate-covered almonds as well to be in the more snacking space.

I would say that I love Milky Way bars and I didn't know you guys offered a Milky Way alternative, so I'll have to check that one out.

We used to back when it first launched. So maybe we're very good at listening to our consumers.

This is a formal product request to bring back a vintage item. You allude to the scientist behind the product, but it really is a differentiator for you all in your product market fit to have something that tastes better and is better for you. Could you walk us through a little bit of that supply chain layer and how you guys think about the formulation experience?

The supply chain is critical. And I'd say for years, that was the thing that held us back in many ways, because a lot of food brands, a lot of food products are one product form and have a bunch of flavors. So think of ice cream or soda. It's all going into a pint or it's all going into a can. And then you have a bunch of flavors. With Unreal, we're reinventing the whole category. You know, a nut butter cup is made differently than a coconut bar, which is made differently than a candy-coated chocolate, right? So building those really strong partnerships with manufacturing partners and making sure that the formulations and recipes that we use will be resilient over time, it can scale with our growth and not hold us back. And that's really difficult to do. It's a delicate balance of how difficult the product is to run versus the equipment that it's run on and that whole dynamic. But it's a critical input to how you're able to take the special formula that we have and scale them to millions and millions of people.

Is it like Willy Wonka level locked up?

I'd say so. Yeah. Our office stuff definitely doesn't look like the Wonka Chocolate Factory. That's actually how sometimes my lovely wife, Sam, describes me as Willy Wonka. I'm like, ah, wait, it's a little different. But we take great pride in our products and it's so critical for us to win at that first bite and you'll be able to scale that to millions of people.

I'm envisioning a marketing strategy with a gold foil and a post-Olympic winner moment. So maybe I can also pitch myself as a marketer for Unreal as well as a taste tester for the Milky Way here. Okay, we've talked about the origin story. We've talked about the supply chain. You alluded to some different go-to-market strategies regarding the initial launch of the product where it was in 30,000 stores from day zero, which is incredibly complex thinking about all the types of stores that are out there from retail locations to local grocers. But then you also mentioned that you helped launch the D2C function. So in 2014, when you started, D2C was really just becoming something we were talking about. And so can you orient our listeners into those early instantiations of direct-to-consumer and how you thought about getting the product directly in the hands of your early customer base?

When I joined Unreal, we were in zero stores again. So we started with a slow rollout into 38 Whole Foods Markets and that turned into 70, and today we're in around 25,000 locations. But the D2C function from day one of me joining was super important, both as a way to learn about our core consumer and directly interact with them. There's so many levels of separation between us and our core consumer and the experience that they have from a data perspective, from experience that they have in store, and after our product goes through distribution and everything to reach their pantry. So we took great strides to make that, you know, as great as can be. It was super important to have that one-to-one dialogue with those consumers, learn from them, and frankly, really serve our superfans, offer the right selections and pack types and price points to serve those consumers who just want a monthly shipment of Unreal to show up at their home or to offer something special, something that's maybe a bit different than what's in the retail landscape, in a special form, special flavor, something like that. And that continues to evolve as we scale as a business. What we've always strived to do is make Unreal as easy as possible to purchase. So yeah, through our website, through Amazon, but also through partners like GoPuff or Thrive Market or others where people can just go on their phone and have a package show up at their doorstep 30 minutes later. And that's the, I think the next level of convenience that we've tried to focus on over the past many years, especially during COVID times.

So you have raised over $18 million in venture dollars for Unreal, and you have helped shepherd the company from a 2016 moment to today. How have you built a relationship with the board, both not as the original founder and also as you grew into your role as CEO?

Yeah, I just preface that the fundraising mostly happened before my time here when the company first launched. And with the board, with our board chairman, It's been a dynamic and great relationship over the years. I think it's ebbed and flowed in many ways here as I've grown and as we've grown as a business. I think one thing that I really respect about our board is everyone's willing to roll up their sleeves and dive in, and they all deeply care about what we're trying to build here. And we're all aligned on what we're building. We're trying to build an iconic brand in a really important category that there's so much room for fixing. But I also recognize when I was 24 years old and I'm running this company, there's a lot of expectations that were placed on me. And I always like to think about it as if you're on a treadmill and the treadmill is at a 6-speed or something and you're running at that speed, you need to be able to run at a 7 or an 8-speed, even though if you're not at that speed, you feel that when you bump up the speed and you end up falling back a bit, you get that, you know, back roller and you, you know, get back up and going. And I've always used that as a metaphor for my career and growth here. It's like the business is going to keep growing. With everything we're doing. And I need to be able to always run a couple of notches faster than what the speed of the treadmill is today. But, you know, from a board perspective, we have incredibly passionate board about what we're doing, who we are, and what we're trying to build for the purpose that Unreal was founded for, not just for business results, but really what problem are we trying to solve in this world? And it's an important problem to solve.

And if you could just one click deeper on the board topic for our listeners, you mentioned the age at which you stepped into this huge role and responsibility, the majority of our listeners are under 35, first-time founders themselves, perhaps navigating a board dynamic for the first time. What advice would you give them on how to have good board hygiene and communication skills?

Oh, that's a great question. I feel like I'm still learning that today. It's really about level-setting expectations, getting everyone on the same page. I think sitting with your board members and getting to know them Having them know you as a, as a person, as a human, what do you care about? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Where are your weaknesses? Where are their weaknesses? Where are their strengths? Where are your strengths? And how to properly engage in that way, because it's not a me versus them or them versus me. We're all on the same side of the table. They always bring us back to that fact. And we can debate about things, we can disagree, but making sure that when you walk out of the room, you're one aligned group. Because my role is really the interface between the company and the board, right? And I need to manage both relationships upward and to the business. It's a lot of work. And I think when you don't put that work into things, you can have separation and emotions can go in different direction, especially at a growing business. It just takes focus. It takes being honest with yourself. It takes being open to growth and change. And like I said before, as your company becomes more successful, You're going to be forced to change. But I think sometimes that's a difficult dynamic to like grasp in many ways. And even today, it's what got us to this point as a company won't get us to the next point as a business. And that's okay. That's nothing against what we've built or how we've gotten here before, but change is constant and it's super important to recognize that as a leader of any organization.

Thank you for sharing that wisdom around being open to changing, because as your company's growing, you as a leader also need to grow in many different ways. And you mentioned that moment of being on a treadmill, sliding to the back, and then having to catch up to the front. And we know that a CEO's journey is just full of high highs and many times low lows. Could you share a little bit more about a moment where things just didn't go as planned?

Oh, there's so many. I'd say that the right message is like having the expectations that things are going to go wrong and that's okay. I think if everything's going right, you're probably not pushing the team or yourself hard enough or far enough. We've made investments that haven't turned out. We've made commitments that haven't turned out, but it's so important to build partnerships across the board with suppliers, with manufacturers, with brokers, with distributors to really create a network that is resilient in good times and bad. And I think a lot of people will see something that goes wrong as a really bad thing. And stay in that mode. But as a leader of any organization, you just have to press on. You have to keep going, expecting that things will go wrong and how best to grapple with that in your mind and how best to bring the team along in that way. And it teaches resiliency, especially with, you know, anything entrepreneurial. You're trying to create something that does not exist, which is really hard and it takes a lot out of you and you have to put your whole self into the business, but not make it about yourself, if that makes sense. Make sure you treat people the right way and you're honest and transparent about what you've done and how you're going to keep driving forward.

When you first answered this question, we chuckled because every single guest we've had on the podcast, when they've answered this question, the answer is, there are so many. But I think qualities that you can have as a leader to really push through those challenges and learn and grow with that company are really helpful for our listener base. We've chatted a little bit about your early years at Unreal. Let's fast forward a little bit and talk a bit about the future. Just a few weeks ago, we had an Unreal pop-up at Inside Summit. For our listeners that might not know, Inside Summit was our Hallmark community event where we brought together about 120 founders and funders for a day of conversation. And we had this D2C market where Unreal was able to show their product. We had our guests really experience the brand. Madison is showing the Inside Summit tote where folks were able to find Unreal snacks inside. But for many of our guests, they've maybe only interacted with Unreal by virtue of seeing them online. How do you think about URL versus IRL in Unreal's go-to-market and sales strategy?

Yeah, it's such an important question. I think especially within the confection category, which is highly impulsive, you don't know that you need to eat the product unless it like jumps out in front of you. It's been a really interesting transition, I think, pre-COVID, during COVID and now living in a post-COVID world, even though many people have COVID these days. But we would set up shop on Saturdays and Sundays outside of grocery stores in New England, giving out samples before COVID We're very field-focused at events and everything. And then everything went online. So we had to pivot to be very performance marketing focused, data focused, digital commerce focused. And more targeting of core consumers. And I think as we move forward, it's finding the right balance. It's finding the right mix between, you know, diving into the data but not getting too in that bubble. It's so important just to talk to people. Who is our consumer? What do they want? How can we better serve them? Well, there's a grocery store next door with a bunch of people buying our product. We could just go and ask them and do that a few times, get to know them. I think especially for us, having people taste the product right off the bat is super important because that's the hook. As I said before, we win with the bite and with that taste experience, and then see the name and think, oh, it all makes sense. We're probably moving more towards in-store discovery and having our brand discovery be tied as closely as possible to product consumption. And that's really our goal moving forward. At the same time, we live in a digital world. People are always online, so you're trying to find the right way to seed our brand's imagery and what we offer and what differentiates us ahead of time. And then when someone sees it in store, there's some connection to that and then try the product right away.

You mentioned in 2014 really started Unreal with this burgeoning direct-to-consumer channel. COVID happened. Many brands really pivoted to D2C as opposed to relying on retail channels. And now we're coming off the backs of 2020 to maybe 2023 where now brands are starting to think about their omnichannel strategy. What challenges are brands uniquely facing in 2024 regarding this split world of being a digital-first world, but also needing to create this experiential moment where customers can really believe and become part of this brand's community?

I think it really depends on your product and your brand, uh, and your product market fit because Every category is so different. People buy chocolate differently than they do peanut butter or bread or milk or eggs. And it's really about knowing how your consumer purchases your category and how best to disrupt that and get your brand out there. I'd say on the digital front, it's become easy to be very focused in a digital way for CPG brands because you have the data, you can target accordingly, and you can put it all together and it seems right, but you may not get the results that you want. It's a balance, you know, as I mentioned before, trusting your gut and with also being really smart about what you're doing and how you're directing things. Digital spend also costs a lot of money. It's highly inefficient in many ways, especially when a majority of distribution for us is in retail locations. The other thing I'd say is that consumers, if you don't have a super specific consumer target and you go broad, you can just end up at the stock core consumer that 1,000 other brands are trying to target. And that poor person is just getting hit with so many ads day in and day out. And it's like trying to yell in a crowded street in Manhattan or something, right? It's like everyone's yelling as loud as they can to get attention, but there's too much noise. So how can you buck that trend and strategically think about how to disrupt your consumer based on your product, your brand, and what story you want to be telling in the most authentic way?

And I think that sort of targeting is really closely tied with the feedback you're getting from your super consumer. So the ones that are ordering, you know, Unreal to land at their doorstep every month. I think community is such an important part of brand strategy going into 2025 and beyond. Tell us a little bit more about how Unreal has really cultivated this community and what can those super customers get excited for this year and next?

We've always tried to create that personalized dialogue with our core consumers, and that'll never change. And when people reach out to us about complaints, maybe a poor product experience or poor delivery experience or something, that's an incredible opportunity to speak to that customer who bought your product, who's reaching out to you, and now you have the opportunity to have a dialogue with them, turn those experiences from maybe a negative for the consumer into a great positive. And we have an amazing CX team here at Unreal, and that's been a key marketing driver for us and focus over the years to really get to know people and be transparent with them about maybe something went wrong. How can we fix that? But really engage in them what we're doing. And it's been so transformational for us. I think on social media especially, we have a very vibrant social community who care a lot about our brand. We try to tailor our content and our voice to be serving them and to be speaking with them in a personalized way. And to really invite them into this journey that we're all on, trying to improve people's lives through our products and our brands. That community is so valuable because the best way, aside from maybe a founder giving the product or talking about the brand to someone, is to have that super fan sharing your product or your brand, speaking the same language that you would be, and enabling them to be growth drivers of the brand and create that network effect. I think like 97% of people in America buy chocolate at least once a year. It's a big space, and that's only the US, right? So we're trying to find the right way to serve those core consumers with pack types, with pricing, with distribution, with product flavors and formats. There's so much innovation to be had, but there's so many iconic products and brands that people grew up with, know and loved back in the day, and maybe took a step away from when they maybe grew up a bit and looked at the back of the pack and saw the sugar I learned about cocoa practices in West Africa and how that all comes to light, which is a terrible dynamic. And just the ingredients that maybe people shouldn't be eating or kids shouldn't be eating. So there's so much room for us to drive forward. We have a lot of things in the works right now. As I mentioned, we just launched the pretzels and almonds, which are rolling out to stores right now. Those two product lines offer a great snack midday, end of day, on the go, or to share. There's a lot of platforms that we can build off of those product lines. And so we're super excited about that.

Candy really is for everyone. And as we think about the evolution and the future of snacks, you guys have some really exciting products coming up. I'm excited to get my hands on the pretzel ones. Maybe just for fun, Kevin, can you tell us what's your favorite Unreal snack?

That's a really tough question. I, I'd say so. I grew up never being a candy eater. I was an odd child during Halloween. I wouldn't eat any of the Trick-or-treat candy. I'd build like forts with it. I don't know why. I never really drank soda. Now I work in a confection company, but I eat almost every flavor of Unreal every night from our caramelpied nougat bars to a peanut butter cup to a coconut bar to a few gems. I go through the full variety there. I don't have a favorite. That would be like asking to pick a favorite child in many ways.

I figured, but okay, your house is on fire and you can only grab one Unreal snack. Which one are you grabbing?

It changes. It really changes by the occasion. I'd have to say if in that situation, um, I mean, our caramel peanut nougat bar is really good. It's a go-to for me. So that's probably the one. I've been asked that question many times and no one's framed it like that before. And that's the first time I probably said an answer. That's interesting.

Well, this is very revealing about you, so we do appreciate it. Um, I, As we shift towards wrapping up our conversation today, we now have procured your potentially favorite snack and understand at a deeper level your own personal journey from starting low man on the totem pole to CEO here at Unreal Stacks. It's just an incredible journey and an inspiring one, I know, for both Claudia and myself. And you've taken a lot of life twists and turns to get there. It sounds like you did not end up going to HBS through the journey. If we could ask, what's next for you personally?

What's next for me is really just continuing to grow this brand and building, scaling our mission to impact way more people in the world. I think Unreal was always founded to, to do something really big in the world, and that's what we're all trying to do every single day. So I've been the CEO for about 8 years this month, actually, and I've probably had 4 different jobs along the way, and that's what's always so exciting about being in a company like Unreal. And with the culture that we have, with the people that we have, it's constantly growing. It's constantly changing. About every 6 months, we're like a new company. And that's exciting. Going back to my career perspective, I'm always growing. I'm always being challenged, being forced to run towards things that are uncomfortable and frankly have fun with it. It's a really exciting place to be.

How can you not have fun when you're changing the face of candy? I love it. Our closing question that we ask all of our guests: who is a woman in your life that has had a profound impact on you and your career?

I'd have to say it's my wife, Brianne. As I mentioned, I became the CEO of Unreal when I was 24. I had a lot to learn and a lot to learn fast. When you're on a steep learning curve as a leader within any organization, there's moments when you feel like you need to assert yourself or exude confidence in your point of view. And while that's necessary in many ways, uh, it's a fine line between being assertive and being blind to what others may be feeling at a human level, maybe not truly understanding how you should orient yourselves in a highly human situation. So Brianne's always been there to get me back on track, to help pull me up and out of my position, or maybe around a frustrating dynamic and ensure that I'm seeing it from all angles. And also frankly, importantly, never letting me wallow or sulk in a certain moment. She's always there to ask, so what are you going to do about it? Which can be a very tough question to hear in those moments sometimes, but it's really necessary to have that answer and that bias towards action and to make sure that you're making things happen versus allowing things to happen to you.

Well, grateful for you that you had that support system from day zero on your own journey and career here. And thank you so much for taking the time today to tell us the sweet story of scaling and building Unreal Stacks and your own vision and future for better-for-you chocolate and confection experiences. It was great to have you in the room.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is super fun. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much for joining us at The Room Podcast. If you want more from The Room every week, subscribe to our newsletter at theroompodcast.com/newsletter. We'll be back next week with a new episode, an inspirational guest Tuesday. See you in the room. Perkins Coie supports the most innovative entrepreneurs and investors in fast-moving and high-growth sectors, addressing their myriad of legal needs. But the firm doesn't just provide end-to-end legal and business counseling to its startup clients. It also facilitates introductions to key advisors and sources of capital. Perkins Coie's interactive website, Startup Percolator, offers access to programs, resources, and rich dynamic content designed to assist entrepreneurs on their startup journey. To learn more, go to startuppercolator.com and perkinscoie.com.

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