Is Your IBS Actually SIBO? | Shivan Sarna

So welcome to the women podcast that we just kind of anticipated we'd have a little bit more time for, but we didn't. So I'm welcoming today. Somebody actually I've been referring to for a long time because I have so many people in my practice that have SIBO and is Shivan Sarna and who's a leader actually in my world also of kind of teaching people about Sibo. She's the author of A Healing Sibo. TV host and the creator of Sibo SOS Summits and Community Digestion SOS documentary series the Gutter Microbiome Rescue Summit. Thank goodness. The Lymphatic Rescue Summit and Chronic condition research, a 401 nonprofit for further research under funded medical conditions. After a long time struggle with health issues, Siobhan made it her mission to demystify her own health struggles and to share that information with others who are struggling. Her special skill is finding and connecting with the leading expert doctors and connecting those experts with the people who need their help. Her personal mantra is sos, save ourselves. And that's what she's helped thousands of people do. Thank you so much for being here. This is such an important issue because I see it in my practice every day. People that are having problems with digestion being told they can never get rid of this issue. And so many people that are not being told that there's a possibility that they might have sibo. I'm thrilled you're here. Real thrilled.

Thrilled to hear.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you so much, you guys. Sorry, I didn't realize we were live.

Welcome to my real life and the whole bit. I am clean. I am very proud of myself for that.

I want to share with everyone what SIBO is. In case you're not familiar with this acronym. It's small intestine bacterial overgrowth. And it's when bacteria from our microbiome, which we love, our microbiome, but when it's bacteria from there that ends up in our small intestine that isn't supposed to be there. And that can happen from a variety of reasons.

And I'm just going to get the.

Big secret out first. The big unexpected reason and how that could happen would be from food poisoning. So even if you're like, I've had food poisoning.

Yeah, I've had the stomach flu a couple of times. That could be it. It could have really been food poisoning.

It's from a very powerful set of bacteria that causes food poisoning. Your small intestines interior lining gets confused because of something called Molecular mimicry. And then the migrating motor complex, MMC baby, gets in a situation where it malfunctions and it can't sweep the bacteria from food and a meal out of the small intestine. And as a result, your small intestine becomes a petri dish, a microbrewery, I call it. And it overgrows and it causes things like bloating, constipation, diarrhea, alternating constipation and diarrhea, rosacea, restless leg syndrome, and on and on.

So this is called post infectious ibs.

And there's actually a test now that one can take. It's a blood test for IBS, finally. And it's called the IBS Smart Test that Dr. Mark Pimentel from Cedar Sinai has created. And also, there are three types of gases that can be produced from this overgrowth. Methane, hydrogen, and hydrogen sulfide. And there's a new breath test, not a breast test. That's a different. That's a different conversation. Right? A breath test test for the three gases, also developed by Dr. Mark Pimentel. And that is called Trio Smart.

And then also some other wonderful labs.

Like aerodiagnostics labs, do the two traditional SIBO breath tests to find out if you have sibo. So those are some of the baselines.

That I wanted everyone to know about.

And if you've ever been told you have ibs, and then the doctor just goes, eat low, fodmap. See you. Love you, bye. You really need to know about sibo.

So here's the thing I love about what you're saying, and that is that, you know, when people come in and they come in to see me from all over the country, literally, and, you know, I have got horrible bloating, I've got gas, and I've been tested. I've had every test under the sun. I've been to 15 different doctors, and everybody's saying to me, you know, there's nothing really wrong. You know, we can't really figure out what the problem is. So here's the part that's so distressing for me, and that is that there is a solution, and people don't have to live this way, especially for sibo. For years, we did not have a diagnosis for it, and now we do, which is really, really important because, you know, we can. Yeah, we can do something about it, and people don't have to have these pregnant bellies for the rest of their life. Oh, my gosh.

I mean, I was on TV for 20. I'm still on TV. So 23 years now.

And when my SIBO was really, really.

Bad, people would Facebook message me and go, when is the baby due? You're glowing.

And while that is a very sweet.

Compliment, it's not one you want to hear when you are not pregnant.

So I would wear slimwear and all that. And it was just occasionally, thank God, or I really got a head trip about it, but it's uncomfortable.

It leads to different types of things.

Like B12, imbalances, anemia, all kinds of things. And if you're health savvy, which is probably why you're here to begin with, right? You're a health seeker. You may feel like I did, which was because I've been into health since I was 15, 14. I couldn't even drive that. My mom and I started with a nutritionist in Sarasota, Florida, with food combining back in the day, and I've been into health ever since. And I thought that I'm a savvy customer, right? So I have this seeking knowledge.

I'm a, you know, investigative journalist.

I'm a show host. This is what I do for a living. And I'd never heard of Sibo. And when someone told me about it.

I was like, oh, that's not me. I tend to be a little bit cynical. And then it just kept coming, like.

These messages from the universe, and I'm like, okay, okay, okay, I got it.

So I did get tested.

I was tested in the University of.

South Florida in the lobby of the.

GI doctor's office, because you have to sit there for three hours, but now you can do it at home. And the test results came back about a month later, which is way too long to wait. And the word it was negative in quotes. The word positive was crossed out, and then someone had written the word negative, so it was actually a false negative. So I lost 18 months, and I've had this since I was 5. That was my first food poisoning episode when I went to India with my parents for a buying trip. And then we got home, and I lived in New York City, and we went to upstate New York, and I was on a field trip, and we milked cows in this farm, and we drank some of the unpasteurized milk, and I got really sick again. And that's just what started the cascade for me.

Then I worked in a moldy building.

For 20 years, so. And then I've been bitten by a tick. Was that too. And just a couple of other fun things like that compounded.

And, you know, I would lift my shirt up not boobs up, but like belly up. And I would show my personal trainer.

I would show my general practitioner, I would show all these doctors and my massage therapist and my ayurvedic practitioner and my acupuncturist and my foot reflexologist and on and on. And I was like, what is the deal? I'm not fat.

And I'm not pregnant and I'm not like super constipated. Like, what is up?

And they would just look at it.

And be like, I really don't know, Siobhan. But that's really unfortunate because as you know so well, bloating. This is really important, everybody. The symptoms of SIBO that I described also mimic other things like Candida, like parasites. Also an extreme form, ovarian cancer in some cases. That's why you really should get tested for SIBO if your SIBO suspicious, because if test comes back negative and you did it properly, you prepped properly and all that. And it's not sibo, it's something else that is important to address. So please get tested if you are suspicious of this and get with some of the practitioners that really know what they're doing.

Get the book. Even if I hadn't written this book, I'd be telling you to get it.

It's going to be the best 17 to $20 you're ever going to spend on your gut health. It's on sale on Amazon frequently.

This is what I've learned in the.

Last five years in my quest of speaking to all of those doctors, of making a nine hour documentary, of doing six summits all about this topic, expanding into the microbiome. Honoring my mother with the lymphatic rescue summit, which just finished with 90,000 people in attendance. So exciting to see all these people getting well. And SIBO is manageable, it is treatable.

And in your practice, I'm sure you.

See adhesions all the time too, which is another underlying cause of sibo if it is not food poisoning.

Yeah, absolutely. So the part that we also know is so many people out there are thinking, what do I do? Everywhere you look online says, you're never going to go over it. It's going to be something you have the rest of your life. And I have a really sad story. I had a patient probably 35 years ago who came in with bloating. I referred her everywhere I could and I didn't know enough about SIBO at the time. She actually committed suicide and it was because she was just so distressed. She just couldn't stand it. Anymore. And I felt, you know, I felt responsible because I was trying to figure out what was going on. I did all the GI tests that I could do at the time, but we didn't really have sibo in our kind of arsenal of understanding about it.

I'm so sorry.

It can be that distressing for people is because they can't. They can't wear any clothes, they feel bloated all the time, they're uncomfortable, and they also don't absorb nutrients very well.

Exactly.

Tell me a little bit more about.

There is hope. People don't.

Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

There's so much hope. One thing I just want to say, if you don't know what an adhesion is, it's an internal scar that this. I'm simplifying it. That could actually pull your intestines and your tissue out of alignment or placement. They can also impact the migrating motor complex. Endometriosis is also another underlying cause of sibo mold. Sifo, you know, all of these other comorbidities, all these other things could be contributing factors. So just wanted to clarify some of that.

Sibo can also.

Siobhan from when you have surgery, any kind of surgery is going to cause huge amounts lesions, you know, laparoscopic, which they did years ago, so.

Exactly.

Cesarean sections. And also, I just want to get this one out too, is that opioid use can also lead to SIBO and alcoholism because it slows down everything, including your migrating motor complex. So there is a scenario where you have food in your tummy and it's actually now in the small intestine. You go for dental surgery, you're under, let's say. Let's say something deeper. Let's say something where you're under deep anesthesia. So they, you know, let's say you're having a facelift or something. Something fun.

You have some. Some bacteria in the small intestine. You're under deep anesthesia, you come out. Your migrating motor complex is not going to be quickly working because it's been, you know, literally put to sleep, sort of. Then you're on pain meds. So that inhibits the migrating motor complex. You are constipated.

Right.

And you haven't taken anything to move things along. And that's just not a laxative. I'm also talking about a prokinetic which moves the migrating motor complex, like maybe ginger or resolor, which is motegrity in this country. Now, it's a very specific kind of drug. And I'm all natural, don't get me wrong, so that you have a ginger option. But if you need a medication, personally, I embrace that idea. I'm going to encourage anybody to do what works with their medical practitioner.

Of course.

And you could get Sibo from that as well. So just something to be aware of. If you had food poisoning, you're never quite the same after. If you had surgery and you were never quite the same afterwards with your GI tract, those could be some of the reasons why now there is hope. And like you and your patient those years ago who didn't even have language, probably to talk about Sibo, that has changed, thank goodness. And I'm happy to be able to spread the word to as many people as possible. We've had millions of downloads. I'm so happy about it. And it is largely due to Dr. Mark Pimentel at Cedars Sinai, who is and has been talking about this to his colleagues, to the world in medical journals for as long as people would listen to.

And he's.

He's the one I really think is going to find a cure for it. He's the one who came up with the idea that rifaximin, which is the drug given for traveler's diarrhea, could impact and help Sibo. He's the one who has come up with the trio smart, which is the breath test for the three kinds of gases, etc. And I've been lucky enough to interview him several times. He's brilliant. So the hope is, is that there are treatments and there are alternative treatments, including three. There are three of them. One is these are the ones that have been studied the most. The rifaximin for hydrogen gas, rifaximin combined with neomycin for methane gas producers. There are herbal antimicrobials like oil of oregano, the mixtures of CandyBact and AR&BR. Those have been studied. And the pharmaceuticals are usually done for two weeks. Then you retest, or if you do them on antimicrobials, the natural route, they're usually done for a month and then you retest. Then there's something else that's the most effective. And I don't know if you work at all with this, but it is the elemental diet. The elemental diet is a liquid diet that is originally designed for feeding tubes and tastes disgusting.

Disgusting like vomit.

The good News is because Dr. Pimentel figured out this would be really great for people with Sibo because it doesn't get. It doesn't make its way to the small intestine Your body absorbs it so quickly because it's all amino acids and that's why it tastes disgusting, because some amino acids are sweet, some are disgusting to taste.

So what's happened is some of these.

Companies, like Integrative Therapeutics, Dr. Michael Ruscio, have come up with formulations that actually taste pretty good. They taste vastly improved. So that is the liquid diet that you would do for 14 to 17 days. Then you retest and what it does is it starves the bacteria versus actively killing it. With an antimicrobial type approach, three things. You have your antibiotics, you have your antimicrobials, and alternatively your third and most effective and most difficult is the elemental diet.

I for years actually have been using a combination of four things, you know.

Oh, good, tell me.

Biocide and also dysbiocide.

Those are great.

Yeah, I mean that combination of four generally does very, very well. But some people can't tolerate them. So you're taking two tablets of each of those four times, twice a day. And that's just a lot of pills. But generally if they're able to tolerate them, I've had unbelievable success. And then obviously changing the rest of the with Ankle Bioram.

That's fantastic. Biocidin is just like a miracle. Rachel Fresco, the creator of that formulation, is just, she's just a love and she's a genius and I appreciate her so much. So those all sound like fantastic formulations. And how long do you typically have your patients on that for?

Have it for a month. I mean, I will start them with one first just to see how they tolerate it. Then I'll add the second one in two days and the third, then the fourth.

Oh, smart, really smart.

And they generally do well. And sometimes they're able to take three of them and they can't tolerate the four. Sure. But you know, I've had great success with it, you know.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Test too. I sometimes will do it in the hospital, but sometimes I'll do the at home breath test as well. Is there a better one to use.

Do you think so?

So I love the integrity of Aerodiagnostic labs out of Boston with Gary Stapleton. He's brilliant. And Dr. Mark Pimentel has created Triosmart. So aerodiagnostic labs is one way to go. And then Triosmart and his lab, Dr. Pimentel's lab is called Gemelli Labs and they have Triosmart, which is the first breath test that does detect all three gases. So that's exciting. You can check them out and Then don't forget about the IBS SMART test, which is the test for post infectious, meaning after food poisoning, irritable bowel syndrome. And you can find out if you have the antibodies that are causing the slowing or the malfunctioning of the migrating motor complex. And while actively, you can't really immediately do something to impact those antibodies. Knowing that that's one of your underlying causes is incredibly helpful. When I found that out that that was one of my underlying causes, it really helped me because I became much more compliant with my prokinetics. There was also an odd. And I know people can relate to this if they've ever had this happen to them. An odd relief with a label, a diagnosis, a reason why. And I think that in my lowest point.

I can see how the despair could take over someone's life. And I'm sad about that, and I'm sad that I even had a glimpse of that. But it's also really important to remember that there. There are answers. This is a condition that is a. How can I say it?

It's not. Look, it's.

It's caused by something else. And then it causes its own set of circumstances. So you really always need to be looking for that underlying cause, which is why I started this conversation with the underlying cause. But it also creates lipopolysaccharides, lps, and it can affect your.

And I'll speak for myself, my brain.

Chemistry, the, you know, feeling of brain fog.

At one point, I couldn't speak well.

Which for me is travesty, since I talk for a living. I. It was a weekend, so I was able to recover. But I remember having a conversation with my husband in the kitchen. I was in my favorite bathrobe. I have a bathrobe collection. And I literally had a thought in my head and it couldn't come out of my mouth. And when it finally did, I was stuttering. It was very bad. And my husband was like ghost white. He was like, are you having a stroke? Are you okay? And I had to sit down and just say, I am okay, ultimately, but I am not doing well today. So I can see how it could get out of control. With your mental health impacting your mental health. The brain gut connection is real. The toxicity of what these bacteria and the overgrowth of these microbes create is real. And it can cause you also to be incredibly underweight.

So we always talk about overweight and feeling fat and everything, and, you know.

That'S like the most popular thing to be.

But.

And I used to mainly Talk about that because it was bothering me, But I had one of my community email me and said, siobhan, listen, I'm underweight and I'm afraid of dying, so please address that more. And I almost cried. I was totally taken aback. And of course, she's totally right. And I'm so grateful for Carlene for saying that to me, because I now really talk a lot more about being underweight, because that is a quiet, suffering minority, and they need help, too. And as you said already, having SIBO will rob your. Can rob your body of nutrients. And if you have the methanogens, which is the overgrowth of the methane producers, they are being studied to actually absorb more of your calories. So if you ate something and then someone with methanogen overgrowth ate something, the person with the methanogen overgrowth could actually absorb more calories from that meal. So that, they believe is one of the reasons why people can be overweight with SIBO is because of the utilization.

Of more calories from food.

Very interesting.

Absolutely.

And I just want to reiterate to.

You the importance of understanding that the gut is a second brain. And we've got enough research now. And I like to see the science that there's a relationship between it and if people are foggy thinking and they really feel confused, many times it can be related to the digestive system. And even I see in my office so many times people that have nematodes and cryptosporidium and antibacterial. So there's a lot of things that are still present. Even though we think we don't have those things here, we do. And it really can disrupt the flora. And to get back into the IBS thing, it just drives me insane. Well, your bowel's irritated.

Really?

Well, thank you so much for telling me that. What am I supposed to do about it now?

Help me. I love the conversation.

What it really means is that you are irritating me about my bowels.

Correct.

I am irritable.

They used to, you know, and still.

To this day, considered like a female condition. And, you know, sort of. It's almost. It's a form of sexism in medicine that is still happening today, unfortunately. But it's not just a woman's disease. It is really a diagnosis of exclusion. You don't have Crohn's. You don't have ibd. You don't have, you know, an obstruction.

You have ibs.

So what are you going to do? You're told to eat a low fodmap diet, which is A beautiful diet that.

Has been created by Monash University in.

Australia and has some very specific.

Carbohydrates that you could, like, avoid or minimize. And there's controversy around that because they feel that it does reduce the diversity of the microbiome. Although here's the thing about SIBO is that. And IBS is that diet controls the symptoms. So that's huge.

That is humongous. Doesn't cure it, it controls the symptoms. Right.

So you can feel better very quickly.

Yeah, but if you don't treat what the problem is.

Exactly.

You have to eat that specific way for the rest of your life, which is what women are just like, so fed up with.

Exactly, exactly.

So.

If someone's suspicious that they have SIBO or they have digestive issues, you know, where do they start? How do they begin? With this journey.

I'm so glad you asked me that.

I get it all the time in our Facebook group, the SIBO SOS community. And if you're listening versus watching this, just know that on page 111 of SIBO SOS, the book, there is a roadmap. And it's what we, we I say me and Dr. Allison Siebecker, who's the world renowned SIBO doctor, who is my biggest colleague or my most prolific colleague, she and I created a course called.

The SIBO Recovery Roadmap.

And it's based on that algorithm that I just showed you that Dr. Mark Pimentel actually created. And then Dr. See Becker and Dr. Steven Sandberg Lewis contributed to.

It starts out with, so you think you have sibo, what do you do? Well, symptom relief with the diet. And then you would take a SIBO breath test to find out if you actually do have Sibo. And then you move to choosing a treatment or considering other diagnoses, depending on if you are a yes or a no. If it's a positive, then you choose the treatment. If you're no, consider other diagnoses like we were talking about. Maybe it's a parasite. And then your three treatments, elemental diet, herbals or antibiotics. You do want to test again after treatment so you can see if the treatment worked. Because if you had a positive breath test, you do a second one, you still have a positive breath test. Hopefully the numbers have come down of how much gas you're excreting.

But if it hasn't come down a.

Lot or at all or enough, maybe you switch to another one of the three types of treatments, then test again. This is what a lot of people don't do. If you don't test, then you can't tell if the treatments actually worked unless you're 80% better, then you manage your recovery. If you are well, you're 80% to 90% better. Gives you time to heal your gut, and you can continue to manage your symptoms with diet. But then also taking a prokinetic, as I talked about before, can help to stimulate the migrating motor complex so the bacteria won't hang out in the small intestine and regrow.

So tell me a little bit more about prokinetics. I think a lot of people have never heard of that before.

I agree with you. Prokinetics. So think about the word. It's promotion. And prokinetics can be ginger if you want to go the natural route. But you have to be careful. If you have GERD or reflux or your lower esophageal sphincter is not toned, and you tend to get that reflux because it can. You can get a ginger burn. There's Iberogast, which you can get on Amazon, which is a very famous formulation that you don't want to do if you're on opioids, by the way, it's these drops. And then there is the motegrity I talked about, which is.

Something you take at night. And the other thing about prokinetics, so you want to really manage your migrating motor complex. Right? The, the thing is, you also don't want to eat too frequently. And I'm not talking about intermittent fasting. I'm talking about giving your body four to five hours in between caloric intake. And what that will do is allow some of the sweeping motions of chlorine cleansing waves to occur. So it allows the migrating motor complex to work. If you eat too frequently, obviously work.

With your practitioner and your doctor.

If you have blood sugar issues and all that, then act accordingly. But if you eat too frequently and you put too many periodic caloric dumps into the body, the migrating motor complex only works in a sweeping motion when there is not a caloric intake. So it's because what it does is it's supposed to happen after a meal. So every time you take in calories, the body's like, oh, she's eating again. Oh, okay, I won't do a migrating motor complex sweep. So you want to maybe wait four or five hours, if possible, in between meals to give the chance for the migrating motor complex to work.

So the bigger question is, how does somebody know if that's their issue about sibo?

If they have sibo Is that what you're asking?

No, not so much sibo?

No. If they've got a need for the prokinetic.

So the prokinetic helps to reduce relapse. It is definitely part of the treatment program. So you have sibo, you find out from the test, you treat sibo. How do you avoid relapse?

Well, you can do the prokinetic to.

Keep the migrating motor complex moving. Maybe you have had food poisoning before and you have the antibodies and you've done the treatment. There's really no cure for those antibodies at this time, so you have to manage it. If you have adhesions through visceral manipulation and the worn technique, you can address those adhesions if you take the antibiotics. And, you know, one third of the people with SIBO take one round of antibiotics and are cured. So it's. That's very helpful. If you're like so many people who have this feeling of like it's never going to be, well, I've done multiple rounds of antibiotics. Maybe your underlying cause hasn't been addressed. So management becomes super important and that's where the prokinetic comes in.

Absolutely. So tell me about antibiotics. You know, how. What is your thought about antibiotics versus the herbal root in terms of what else is doing to the gut, mucosa and the floor of the. Yeah, the intestines.

So the beauty of rifaximin, which is xifaxan, also known as xifaxan, is that it stays in the small intestine. And this has been studied. It absolutely stays in the small intestine. So while it does nuke the microbiome of the small intestine, it does not nuke the microbiome of the large intestine. So that is very different. It's a very unusual antibiotic. Now, neomycin, when you add it to that, or just neomycin on its own, is systemic, so it does hit the large intestines microbiome. So that's a different story. But antimicrobials can also impact the microbiome. So it really comes down to a decision between you and your practitioner. How many previous rounds of antibiotics you've.

Had in your lifetime.

Do you feel like your microbiome is in good shape to begin with already? Or you're like, it is a desert in there and I do not want to do anything to nuke it. So I'm going to go low and slow and maybe then the elemental diet is going to be your course of action.

So one of the things I just want to Add is that the gut mucosa is established by age two. And if you have somebody who had, you know, through the birth canal, your mom had issues with the gut, the chances of you having issues with your gut are pretty great. And if you had antibiotics in H2, we've already got an imbalance there because after age 2, the gut microbiome doesn't really shift a whole lot for the better. So it's just a really good point to kind of ask your mom, is she still alive? Did you have digestive issues? And even was I a vaginal delivery? Because C sections is a whole different kettle of fish. Exactly. Just wanted to add that's really helpful. So any kind of last minute tips, you know, what I hear you saying, which I adore, is that you don't have to have it the rest of your life. There is treatment. If you think you have it, get one of the tests. And one of the things that I find in my practice, though it takes a while for the test results to come back. If they get in the hospital, it's even a while. And the test that I send away for takes a month. And it's like all these people, they're waiting so long.

Oh, you don't need to tell me what lab you're using.

But it shouldn't take a month. It really shouldn't. So check in with the other labs.

That I mentioned because they're not that slow. Obviously it depends on how backlog they.

Are, but it should definitely not take a month.

It took me a month. And that's just not the way other.

Labs are running these days. That's they're trying to get it out faster. And if you're doing a retest, let the lab know because at least I know at aerodiagnostics they will fast track your test. Because if you're retesting and you're on the elemental diet, you've done it for 14 days. Now you're retesting to see if you've resolved placebo. They know what you've gone through, so they're going to get you your results back ASAP to determine whether or not you decide to stay on the elemental diet for like three more days to really get rid of maybe the last residual bits of overgrowth. So that's just something to keep in mind.

I would say that there is hope.

There's also a mindset shift that needs to happen in some cases, which is.

We'Re used to taking a pill and getting better. Right. Bless pharmaceuticals, bless supplements and all that. We're used to having like some something. Take two weeks of this antibiotic, you're going to get better. You get better. Life is good.

Okay?

With sibo, you have to take multiple rounds often if you have very high levels of gas. And then the other thing is maybe your underlying cause can't be resolved. So you're going to have to make manage that condition. But you can feel 100% better when you manage a chronic condition than when you leave a chronic condition unattended. And that was a huge awareness that I had to come to grips with. And I wanted to have like, you know, a clean sheet, a clean bill of health with nothing on there that said anything was wrong with me.

But at the end of the day.

If I'm managing it and I feel 100% better and I'm absorbing my nutrition.

Fantastic. I will take it. I will take it. So that's just something that I wanted to encourage people to expand their consciousness on.

So if people want to learn more about you, where do they go? Because I'm sure there's lots of people listening to this going, oh my gosh.

I want to know, how do I do this?

Where do I start?

Thank you so much. My website is sibosos.com do come back often because it is perpetually under construction. We're constantly improving it. Just like any, you know, home decor expert. They're constantly trying to change the drapes and the paint the walls.

So that's what's happening with me too.

For my website, sibosos.com get the book. It is on Amazon and it's got some great reviews. It's very easy, it's very practical. There are 40 recipes. This was not self published. Even though I love a good self published book. Random House embraced this, so I thank them. So please do get this. It's going to save you a lot of time, money and energy. And then come to our Facebook group, it's the SIBO SOS virtual community. And get on our mailing list because that way you'll know about my upcoming summits, which include Digestion SOS Rescue and Relief for ibs, SIBO and Leaky Gut. It's my docu series that will be coming out in June. And then in September I have a Dental Health Connection summit. Because with all these conversations I've been having with the experts so frequently, two things. The mouth is not talked about enough or we talk about it and it's just like, duh, it's the other end of the digestive system. It's the beginning of it. So we're. I'm doing a lot of exploration into that, so I'm very excited for that event as well.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it so much.

Absolutely. And we'll do it again.

Thanks so much.