Deena - From Concerned Hubby to Her Biggest Fan

Hey everyone, welcome to the No BS Travel Advisor Podcast. I'm Marcie Muensterman, your no fluff, no filter, tell it like it is coach. I'm so excited to bring you the stories, strategies, and straight up truths right from the mouths of your colleagues. So glad to have you here. Let's get to it. Hi friends, welcome back to the No BS Travel Advisor Podcast. Today I am sitting down with Deena, who's not only a badass new travel advisor, but also a caretaker, a mom, and someone who has literally rebuilt her career from the ground up. We are going to talk about the real shit today, what it looks like to balance caregiving and being a mom of adult children with running a business, why she walked away from the legal world after nearly 30 years, and how she almost quit travel before finding her footing. I hope you grab your coffee and/or wine depending on what time of day it is, because this one's gonna feel like you're sitting right here with us, and I'm so excited to start season 2 with Dee.

Hi, Dena. Hello. Thanks for having me.

How are you?

Great.

I'm so excited to meet you in person. And I think we should just start simple so we can get warmed up for season 2, but tell me about your family life right now, what that looks like and who are the people that you're caring for and what does a typical day look like for you right now?

Oh gosh. My typical day starts really early. I start working about 5:30 because my husband gets up, he works shift work and he's up And out of the house by 5. So I get up and start working. Since I've been working at home, I basically look homeless like 90% of the time.

You look beautiful today.

Yeah, I did get ready today.

Same.

Um, yes. Um, I, my husband and I've been together for, well, we've been married for 24 years and we were together 7 years before that. So, wow. Long time.

Awesome.

I have 2 kids. My son is 25 and he moved out and bought his own house and moved out in November. And my daughter's gonna be 22 right away. And she's a paramedic, so.

Wow.

They're all grown and have careers, which is great cuz I feel like we just survived. We did it.

We did it.

Yay. But I do have my mom that I take care of. My dad passed away, oh, 6 years ago and he kind of just, he used to take care of me. Yeah. Well, it, it happens. But he was like the person that took care of everything for all of us. So, you know, my mom came from that generation where the man did everything. She didn't take care of finances. She just Things just happened in her life and he did them all. And so when he passed away, like we knew that we were gonna have to just take over cuz she, she didn't even know how to really take money outta the bank. She doesn't know how bills are paid. Like she literally just, life just happens for her. Right. So, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that was a big change. So when that happened, I actually went back down to 4 days a week to at work and, um, kind of dove in to take care of all our finances and her personally. And that is a big challenge. Our health system is not great and there's not a lot of resources out there for elderly people. So.

Right. So what were you doing 4 days a week while you were managing that new change in your mom's life?

Yeah, I was a paralegal for about 30 years. So very busy. Lawyers need a lot of care also.

Yes, they do.

Yeah. And actually that was really, there was a lot of resistance to me cutting back my hours because like, I've always been somebody that, um, just took care of everything, like, and my career's like that. And I was good at my job and I was actually at that job for 15 years. I thought I would've been there till I retired. And so when I asked for that, um, there was a lot of pushback about that. And it was like, well, why don't you like working? You know, you're, you take care of everything. Why do you not wanna just work and do that? And you can do all this. And it was like, Mm-hmm. I can't do this all. Like, it's impossible. So, okay.

So I got that wrong. 15 years, not 30.

No, I was just at that law firm for 15 years.

Oh, you were at that law firm for 15 years.

I, okay. I've worked at many law firms, but that one in particular.

But you had a long paralegal career, which is like high-paced, super detail-oriented.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was good at it. Like, I, yeah, I loved my job and, um, I was really good. Like, I'm good working in the chaos. Like, I'm good at managing lawyers. Like, you know, I, I, I really did enjoy it, but I was just finding it really overwhelming because it was taking care of that and taking care of my mom. And so there's a lot of resistance because when you do everything and then you can't, people don't get it because they're like, what do you mean? You always take care of everything. That's what you do. And it's like, well, I do a good job of it, but I'm still human.

Right. And things change. Things have, you have to pivot, right? You have to make adjustments. And you said you also care for your uncle as well.

Well, yeah. And then he came into the picture down the road and we had to move him. He's a farmer. And so he didn't want to come to the city, but we moved him here. So he has no other family. He was my dad's brother. So he has no other family. So now I also help with him. So I have 2 elderly people that honestly it's harder than taking care of children because they don't listen. Right.

Well, they think they're independent. They want to do their own thing. They've always done it a certain way. Right. And then they're like, who are you? You're coming in and That, that sandwich, they call that the sandwich generation where you're raising your parents' generation and you're trying to get your kids like out of the house at the same time or independent. That's a pretty intense role to carry. So what happened with the law firm?

Well, so I actually ended up leaving. It honestly felt like a divorce because we really were like family, but I just really, it was, there was a really big disconnect about why I couldn't just keep doing what I did. Right. And the legal side of it. And I think lawyers just tend to, I don't know, like he, he was a great, like it was a great place to work. I have nothing bad to say about the law firm or the lawyer I worked with. Like he honestly was like an amazing person to work with, but I just, I just felt like there was such a disconnect that I just had to leave because it was not working anymore. And yeah, there was like a wedge all of a sudden. It was like, well, you just, you take care of things, just keep doing that. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And I was like, mm-hmm. So I went to another law firm and then, um, anyway, without getting into the whole law firm thing, I ended up taking a job managing a law firm. So, um, I did that for about a year and a half and then very unexpectedly the managing partner that hired me got sick, retired literally the next day. Oh my God. And then the new management, younger, different management decided they did not need an office manager. And we're going a different direction and I found myself unemployed, which—

Oh my gosh.

I couldn't believe it. It was like, never in my life did I think that I would be unemployed.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's a lot, Dena, especially in the last 6 years.

Yeah.

Like, that sounds like a lot to take on.

Yeah.

Well, we know that something shifted for you, so I would love to hear, I'm glad you're here. You're so deserving. And, but it is interesting that you transitioned to travel, which is a sales position from the paralegal and legal world. I'm sure you brought over some incredible skills. So what attracted you to the travel business and how long have you been a travel advisor with Mind My Travel?

Okay. This is, I've been about just a year, 2 years now.

Okay.

And it actually just happened by accident, which is kind of how I fall into many things, but, um, You know, I was really in shock when I didn't have a job and I had to really evaluate what I wanted to do because as much as I love the legal world, it's really a thankless job. Like the better you are at your job, the more work you get and the less, you know, appreciation you get because if you're good, it's just, that's what you're expected. And there's nobody listening.

I mean, corporate America hell. Like it's like, don't be too good at anything because they're just going to keep piling it on.

Yeah. And I never really felt like I needed that appreciation. I knew what I signed up for. I knew the type of personalities I worked Like anyone in law, like we all have Type A personalities, so there's a lot of personality.

Yeah.

But I really did at that point feel like, okay, I, I literally feel like I've done as much as I can. Like I was at a position where I could make the changes I wanted to. I was doing a really good job of it. I felt like, you know, I was bridging the gap between the staff and the lawyers and doing exactly what I was hired to do. And I'm like, now what do I do? Because now I don't want to go back to work where I was. And I don't really want to do this again because it's just the same thing, rinse repeat, right? Like you try to make Hey, it's not gonna happen. So I was like, really, like, I'm gonna take a couple months and just really think about what I wanna do.

Okay.

And I just knew I didn't wanna go back to law. And I, I told my husband that, like, I'm done. And he's like, what do you mean? That's what you do. I'm like, no, I'm done. I'm doing something different. I don't know what it is, but I'm doing something different. And he just, he couldn't get, he's like, you, this is all you've done. Like, what do you mean you're gonna do something different? I, you know, I'm 50 years old. Like, what do I do? And so I've always, we've always loved to travel and we travel a lot and people always are like, oh, where are you guys going? on next? And, oh, are you, when's your next vacation? And, you know, and then they'll say, oh, your trips look so amazing. How did you find all these trips? And I said, I just love researching trips. And so, um, we've got that over the years and I kind of always held back about posting about it because people are also a little judgy about it, you know, but, oh, why are you traveling so much? But I thought, right. I, I might just look into this. So I kind of said it to a friend as a joke and said, well, maybe I'll just become a travel advisor. And she's like, you know, you really should. And I'm like, nah, I don't want to plan other people's trips. And, you know, and she's like, no, you really should think about it.

Mm-hmm.

And that, that night I'm like—

We love a good friend to push us over the edge. Like, tell me if I'm crazy, right?

Yeah. Well, I, I said it joking. Like, I really didn't even mean it. Like, you know, and then I, then that conversation made me think maybe I should. And like, I always had trouble sleeping. So I was up that, that night and like started—

Oh my God, girl, we all have that. Like, like just laying in the bed scrolling. I'm now picturing you like, oh, you know, okay, maybe I'll think about this.

Exactly. And so, and then of course when I start doing something, I'm just that I'm all in. So I start looking at it and figuring out what I need to do. And then I'm like, okay, I'm doing this. Cause I also do that. I'm just like, if I, I'm just all in the minute I decide I'm going to do some things. I looked up the course. I just signed up for it. I didn't even really tell my husband.

Which course?

Yeah, it was through ACTA. It's just like, I'm like, I'll just get a feel for, you know, it was basically like How do I, I can't even remember what it's called, but it's basically the intro to how to be a travel advisor.

So, okay.

Well, this is a good thing.

Is it a free course? Is it, does it cost something?

No. Okay. No, I had to invest in it. It was actually, considering I had no income anymore, it was scary. But I'm like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it right. And I'm gonna see if this is something that's even a thing. Like, and I didn't even know if people really hired travel advisors anymore. I'm like, I don't know, do they?

But the ultimate question for so many people. Yeah. Do we exist?

Yeah.

We do.

And so I signed up and then I told my husband I signed up and he was like, what? And my son was there too. And they're like, nobody hires travel advisors anymore. And I'm like, I don't know if they do. I said, it seems like they do. Cause I did the research and it's like, oh no, now we need them more than ever. And I'm like, I don't know how accurate it is.

Yes. And in fact, 23% of people still really consistently use— hire, my bad, hire travel advisors. But also that number has increased 5% since COVID and the pandemic. So. That's just some statistic analysis for those out there wondering if we exist.

Yeah. So I did the course, like I signed up first, then told my husband and they thought, oh my gosh, like, what are you doing? But you know, he's, he's pretty supportive. You know, he knows if I'm going to do something, right, I'm pretty much just going to do it. But you know that I'm also very serious about it. You know, I did all the course and I was finished and then I was like, okay, now what? And so I'm like, that was, you know, I like this. I like the idea of doing this. Obviously the 2 options were to work with a company, which I'm like, I'm never being an employee again. Let's, no. And then being independent, which is what appealed to me. So I did all the research about what that entailed, like with the host agency. And then, you know, I started looking, how do you find a host agency? And, you know, then the commission split and all that kind of stuff. And well, being in legal research is, I research everything.

So you read all your documentation?

Yes.

Amen. Amen. This is actually one of the first conversations I've had with someone who's fully read everything that they needed to read prior to becoming a travel advisor.

Well, the legal background helps. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. So it came in handy much earlier for you than it probably does for the rest of us.

Well, and that's just me. Like I need to know everything. I need to know every detail. And so I really did a lot of research on everything I needed to know. And so then I was like, okay, let me reach out to some host agencies. So I kind of narrowed it down to the few in Canada that I thought like really got good, you know, that I felt comfortable about. And I messaged them and I think there was 3. And, um, I said, okay, here's my questions, you know? And then 2 of them got back to me with, oh, here's a link to our video. Watch this video. Then we'll schedule a call. And it just felt very like, oh my God, I know what I want. I told you what I want to know. Just tell me.

Right.

So my current agency, which is Travello, they got back to me right away and just gave me the information, which I loved because— Awesome.

I've heard wonderful things about Travello in Canada.

Oh my gosh. I cannot even tell you how glad I am that I went with them, but that's what drew me to them is they were very, they were, here's the information, like, no, oh, look at our video. And like, and then I had some questions and they're like, just jumped on a call and called me right away. And we just had like a, a very casual conversation where they answered all my questions. They're very honest. Um, they didn't give me any like, oh yeah, you'll make all this money. They were very like, they said it's probably gonna take 2 or 3 years and you're gonna have to work hard and you probably are gonna need some other income because you don't make money right away.

Good for them.

Yeah. And basically like, yeah, what you, you get what you put into it and we're here to help you. But if you don't do anything, that's what you're gonna get. And I love that because, well, That's how it should be.

We love the real talk. We love the honest conversation because we both know that that's not as, you know, accurate for a lot of host companies that are trying to like sell someone on becoming a TA versus explaining how difficult it can be. And I'm just curious, Deena, what's the biggest shock about running your own travel business compared to working in law?

Well, for me, honestly, it was, I thought I would be way more in control of my brain and how Busy, like I mean I've always been like chaos, right? But that's just the nature of my job. So I thought, well, like I won't have that. I'll be able to structure my days. I'll be and I don't know if it's that I'm used to working that way. For me, it was really hard to be able to focus on any direction. Like I was literally doing a hundred things every day. Like you know, oh, I'm gonna check this email. Oh, I got to do this training. Oh, I gotta.

Yeah.

And it was like, for me, it was that I still couldn't actually get rid of the chaos because there was just so much stuff to learn. But yeah, that's just me, I guess. I don't think everybody maybe feels that way, but I also want to do everything.

Oh, I think you might be surprised to hear that we all have felt that way about travel at some point. I mean, having done this for almost 2 decades, being in any sales position, you're always having to learn something new. And then on top of everything else, depending on how many products you want to know about, there's just endless opportunity to learn and everyone wants your attention, right?

Yeah.

So, I'm not surprised that it felt that way, especially in the beginning when you're learning something brand new. Like, even though you have all these amazing skill sets, you're now in a sales position on your own, commissionable, you know, it's lonely too, I think. You know, you're not showing up at an office, talking to people, drinking coffee with people. You're just in your office like, what do I do next?

Yeah. Well, honestly, with Travalo, I don't really feel alone. And that's another thing I'm lucky for.

Oh, good!

They, they literally hand-feed us so much support that you literally cannot be successful if you're trying. Like they have—

Love that.

They have a whole support group for new to, uh, new to industry agents. Like we have our own group so that when you're asking questions, there's not seasoned agents that are like, oh my God, we know all of this.

Oh my gosh. Take a book or take a page out of Travalo's book over here. I am obsessed.

Yeah. And so they immediately put you in there. They're in contact with you. They know your name, they know your story. They, they like interact with you personally. And so these groups are all new to industry advisors. So we kind of get to bond. They have meetings once a week. And then once you're comfortable, then you get moved into the, the second level with the experienced advisors. And they have those once a week also.

Wow.

And it's like Zoom calls. Like, so you actually have like interaction and support and they, they just Honestly, they, they just throw so much support at us that you just don't feel alone. If you do, it's because you're choosing to be.

Okay. I love this. So are you comfortable sharing like about the host split situation?

Absolutely.

Because I know in Canada it can be very different than the US.

It's, yeah, it's, it's amazing. Like honestly, when I started for the first year, I kept waiting for the real Like stuff behind the scenes, right? Because you're always kind of fed the great things and I'm like, okay, I'm waiting for the bad things and they never came. And so when I started, the commission was different. It was, I think I started at 79%.

Oh, wow.

And then you would move up like, you know, with certain increments, but about a year in, it was, oh, at the beginning of January this year, they changed our commission. So when they came in, when they actually, we, um, We, uh, went into the US now. So there's the US division.

Mm-hmm.

And then they're like, oh, we're gonna change the commission. I'm like, okay, here we go. Like, this is where it happens.

Right.

Well, the, they introduced this and I'm like, there is a catch to this because they bumped everyone up to starting at 85%. Like you instantly started at 85%. Then once you make $15,000 in, um, gross commission, you get 100%.

Whoa.

And so I'm like, What?

I'm like choking on that information.

Yes. And I was like, what the heck?

That's amazing.

This can't be true. So, um, I'm obsessed with this.

I did not know this. I love finding new things. So I'm trying to figure out the Canadian market like a little bit, cuz I have so many wonderful Canadian agents. I have never heard of this ever.

I know we all were. And honestly, I can't even believe it, but a lot of agents didn't go to the new platform. Because they felt like there was a catch, like, or they didn't.

Wow.

So, um, I jumped on that right away and it's legit. Like it is legit. Like that's, and I, you know, it, wow. I can't even explain it. I know I was shocked too. Cuz then like when they said new commission, I was like, oh yeah, okay. Now, you know, I'm like, no, it's better. Wow. They really are amazing.

That's wonderful. That's real. That's what real agent support looks like. I get a lot of backlash cuz it's always like, Marcie hates hosts. Marcie hates agency owners. I don't hate anyone. First of all, that's Weird. What I hate is the toxic environment that a lot of host companies, I don't think on purpose create, but it turns into like a snowball effect from leadership down. But if leadership down understands the needs of their agents, you will have more Deenas than you will have washouts because, you know, and it kind of sucks for those agents that were not trustworthy of this company that had already shown them how incredibly supportive they are.

Yeah.

And they would leave. But I'm so glad for you that you stayed. Yeah. Because now here we are.

Well, they didn't leave. They just didn't, like, we could transition to the new platform.

Oh, they just didn't want to hop over.

Well, yeah, cuz I think they're just waiting to see, okay, what's the catch? And I, I admit I kind of was wondering that too, but I'm like, I didn't see anything wrong.

I know it's in our natural, like, human mind to be like, wait, what? No. Yeah. Negative, negative, negative. But. They really showed up for you guys. I love that.

And I think anybody that is in Travalo knows the support because like another thing that I just found amazing was everyone in head office and it's really a very, um, like a very woman-heavy like head office, which is awesome.

We love that.

Everyone, when they start, like when they open a conversation right up to the CEO says, what can we do to help you be more successful? That's like amazing. Like I've, I've never had that asked, like asked of me ever.

Right. Because law firms and lawyers are not sitting around wondering how do they make their paralegal more successful or more comfortable or working in a better environment. That does not exist. Like it's just not the same way.

And so even when I talk to, like, you know, when the BDMs come to visit and, you know, we'll have lunch and they'll ask how I like working there. I'm like, oh, they're so amazing. And. And they're like, that's not normal, just so you know, like you guys really are different. And I believe it.

I am obsessed with this, Dena. I am so happy for you. But I do want to talk about something that you put in your form because I always ask the question, have you ever just like, you're obviously happy, you have all the support, you're getting great commission, but have you ever just felt like you wanted to throw in the towel? Like, F this, I'm done. I can't do this. I mean, we know it's hard, but like even having all that support, you said that you had a moment of like complete meltdown moment.

Absolutely. And it was really early on and it, you know, that support was great. It wasn't because of that. It was just because of the clients. And it's not even necessarily the clients. It's the way that I was allowing them to come to me. Um, you know, because again, I wasn't really sure I was going to do this. So I basically was putting it out there basically like, oh, come, come book your trip with me. I hope you will, you know, just basically like, this is what I'm doing. Love to help you out. And I was really just happy for anything. So anybody that came to me, I would just go running and do whatever I could to help them. And, you know, and I approached it very differently than I ever have even any interview in the law firms. Like, cause I always came to an interview with, this is why you should hire me. This is what I bring to the table. Not, oh, please hire me. But for some reason, and I think maybe just the confidence and not knowing, I was really putting it out there, you know, just, oh, well, somebody just, you know.

Kind of casually, like. Not sure if you wanted to actually get a vacation booking. Yeah.

And so people were like very supportive and I loved it. And it's not that I'm, I'm not even blaming the clients because I think it, I blame myself really because of how I was putting it out there, but it was a learning thing. But so people were just coming to me to support me, but basically it was on their terms, right? Like, can you do this? Like treating me like a booking engine and I was just allowing it. So I was operating like that where I was, you know, Looking at, you know, tons of different options and the cheapest and the best deal and, you know, and not, and, you know, telling them that this is not going to be great. And they're like, no, we just want cheap. We don't care. And so I was just bending over backwards trying to like do anything and everything and like, you know, give me a million proposals because they wanted so many options and it was just exhausting. And so I was working with a group of 6.

Oh, wow.

And I totally, I never questioned they were gonna book with me cuz I just, I knew I kind of had a relation, like I knew the, the person that reached out to me and there was no question about it. So they were all in different cities. They all had kind of different dates. And of course the flights are different, but they all wanted the same resort. And so they were looking also, and of course on Expedia and all these, you know, and ugh. I know, but gag. They're like, oh, these people wanna go this many days and we wanna go this days. And you know, There was just so many weird—

Just chaos.

Yeah. So it was like, well, no, like really exactly. And basically like here, like look at this package deal. Well, now look at flights separate and hotels separate and then look at this. And I was doing that all and I was like, it was so crazy. Like I was using Travefy and I was trying to like tag everyone and like, it was just, it was so much chaos. And I'm like, I was looking at this going, I don't even know what this is anymore. Right. Right. And so anyway, we finally kind of got it down and then I had messaged them cuz I knew they were looking and they're like, oh, what about this? Like, it's cheaper this here and there. And so I finally said, okay, we got the dates down, we got the flights. This is the cheapest price I can get, but it's through like a third party. Like it, you know, it was through, and I said, the thing is they will have control of the flights, so I don't like that. And all I, and this was all in messaging cuz at the time I was doing all messaging. And so they said, well, that's a deal breaker then. And I was like, what the fuck? What do you mean it's a deal breaker? So I finally got on the phone.

Right.

I said, okay, what's a deal breaker? And they're like, oh, we already booked.

What? And I'm like, in between, how long was it between like, hey guys, I want to get on the phone to like an hour or two?

Like, I don't know. I think they got—

I hate people though. I know. And I was like blaming them, but let's be real. You're right there talking.

Exactly.

Such a thing that happens, especially to new advisors. I hate that for you, Dina.

Oh my God. I was just like, I couldn't even believe it because I'm like, I literally spent probably a month and a half and like daily, just like a month and a half. Oh my gosh. It was so— they just really They really were budget clients and they just really like, it was so exhausting. And so she's like, well, we don't wanna go through a third, a third party. We're, we wanted you to book direct. I'm like, that is what I told you. I said, I wish you would've talked to me. And she's like, oh, sorry. Yeah, I guess we, we misunderstood. And one of the couples found it way cheaper than what you were offering. And I was like, I, for one, I had a hard time believing that, but whatever. But I'm like, I can't even believe they didn't get on the phone and just talk to me and they just booked it.

But I know— They didn't see you as almost like a person. It was like, mm-hmm, I'm, you're just I don't know, for lack of a better word, like you're just the help. Like you're just helping them and figure it out and then they can just go book however they want. And this happens so much and we do not talk about it enough.

Yeah. And I know I was actually heartbroken because that's exactly how I felt. I'm like, okay, now I feel like I'm an employee and that's not what I want. And I honestly do think in hindsight, people just don't know how we get paid and they don't, they don't really understand. That we just worked for free for how long? It doesn't. And even now, I love when people ask me, okay, I, I hate asking this, but how do you get paid? And I'm like, I love that you're asking cuz you care. Like, you know, right. Instead of just being like, oh, you're just a booking engine kind of thing. So that is when I signed up. I, I swear that was the day. And I was in tears when I signed up.

Oh my God. Were you like, I have to have some wine and figure out what is going on? Like, how did you, how did you find? I assume Maximize. That's where most people find my information. But how did you find the courses that were like speaking to you? Like you were like, I am done. The wine is out. What is going on? I'm crying.

Well, I've been learning for a while and I like, I've been following you and like, I really love the no nonsense. Like I love the honesty. I'm like that. I, I interact like that. That's, I surround myself with people like that. So I, I was really drawn to just. Like your message and your way of like communicating. So I had followed along and I was lurking and I was like, okay, I feel like I need these courses, but I had no income. So I was like, I cannot invest in anything. Like I, my husband was like, what do you mean you're not going back to work? You're going to do this full time? Because I'd kind of told him I'm thinking I might just do this. He's like, there's no way. And I'm like, okay, just give me a little while and then I'll get a side job. But I need to just get this up and running.

So how long before, from like the day you signed up with Travello, you did the training, you were doing the things. You said it happened early on that you just got burnt. Like, that's basically what happened. We get burnt so bad and you're like, okay, I've been lurking around. How long had you been lurking around? And also just tell us more about that journey with your husband, because you're, you know, he's like, seriously, what is happening? What kind of conversations were you having with him while you're lurking to say, how long can I do this until you're fed up with me doing this before you quote unquote let me do it? You know, like.

Yeah.

Because that's something I think a lot of people forget is like, we're in this partnership. Many people are still married and we're trying to figure all this out. We're not making any money. Like, well, what does that look like at home?

Oh my gosh. Well, I honestly like, well, for one, I never expected not to go back to work because I've always worked. Like we've always had 2 incomes. I've always had a good income. We've never worried about that. I've never not been able to work. And I literally could have went back to work probably the next day in the legal field. But so that's never been a concern. And then like, I, He was okay with me taking a couple months off to like just figure it out. But we both thought I would just go back to work full-time in the legal field, even if I did the travel advisor thing, because this was kind of a backup plan. Like we like to travel, so he can retire anytime, but he won't yet. But so it was kind of like, well, I'll learn this, then we'll do this while you retire. I can do this when we go. But the more I got into it, the more I'm like, this is my passion, like helping people. I love it. I'm like, and then I'm like, I really just knew I didn't want to go back.

Right.

And I just, the more I thought about it, the more it just made me ill thinking of going back to that. I just couldn't. So I'm like, I think I want to make a go of this. And like with the support from Travello, that made that decision stronger. Like, because I was like, okay, I have a supportive community. I have support here to build this business. I know I can do it. And I know that I have people coming to me already, but he saw me working so many hours and spinning my wheels and literally making no money. And also—

How many hours were you working?

Oh my God. I was working like, well, on the fly, like all the time. Like I, you know, it's constantly—

Innumerable. Like, If you're working like that, you have no idea how much you're working.

Exactly. And he saw it though. And he's like, you're like working so hard and making no money. You're making less than minimum wage. And I said, well, you have to build up a business though. Just be patient and like, give me some time. And so when stuff like that happened, he was like, see, this is not something you can do. And I'm like, I feel like I can do it.

It's just not sustainable.

Yeah. And I get it. And not having money is huge. Like if he just came home and said like, I'm going to go do something fun and, you know, not bring an income in, like I would have been like, What the frick? Dude, like—

What is going on in here? Like—

I know.

He's right. We wouldn't really be comfortable with— I certainly can admit I would not have been comfortable at any point if Eric was like, I'm no longer gonna be an engineer. I'm going to do something that doesn't even pay me for probably a year to a year and a half. We would all look at him like he had 14 heads and had accidentally gotten hit by a car outside and we didn't know about it.

Exactly.

Like, what is happening?

Oh, it's totally fair. And I like, you know, I'm so grateful that he's, he is supportive to me in most things. And I mean, he would've told me not to do it and he probably like, he's, he's getting a little bit better on board now, but he would've told me to stop it.

We're gonna give him a pass.

He would've, um, he would've told me to stop it immediately, but he also knows that when I, when I wanna do something, I am going to do it. Like, I mean, but I'm, I obviously want his support and he, he is always there even though we've had some moments. I think he's here. Yeah. We've had some moments with the No income thing. And I get it, but I was just like, trust me. Like, and then, so it went from give me 2 months to give me a year, give me a year to build this.

I think that's fair. I mean, if you're really going to build it, it does take at least a year to even know.

And I said, if I am totally flopping in a year, I will abandon this. I will go back to work full-time, but please just give me a year and I'll still try to work for like, find something part-time, which I did. I can't say that I wasn't putting it in the universe. Like, oh, don't call me, but I did. And I like, I was looking, but it's It's, it's hard to find that balance. But so he has been supportive, but when that happened and I was in tears, he was like, see, look, like this is not worth it for you. And I'm like, but I feel like I can do it. I just, I need to know how to do it better. Like I need to figure out how to not put myself out there like I'm an employee and that I am like running a business.

Working for you as a client instead of working with you and partnering with your clients.

Yeah. But I needed the confidence to like, cuz I was new, so I didn't have that yet where I felt like I could just put it out there like, yeah, I'm an expert. I know what I'm doing. Cuz I felt like, well, people know what I just started. They're not going to believe that, you know?

Yeah, but you're well-traveled. You have this incredible organizing background. You are obviously highly intelligent. I mean, you have to be to be a paralegal and deal with all the things, not to manage— not to mention manage lawyers.

Yeah.

Like, hello, that skill set alone to me is like, stamp, I would hire you in a minute if, if I hired people, which I don't. But I think it's when that, so that mindset shift has to come in too, where you're like, no, I want this and I am going to be good at this because of all my history. Like historically speaking, you've been extremely, extremely successful.

Yeah, no, I thought it was. And so I knew I could do it and I was like, well, I needed that confidence, but I also had to be honest that yeah, if I'm working like this, this is not sustainable and it's not making an income. And I don't blame him for being like, what the frick? Like, stop doing this now. I like, so I, that was a wake-up call to me that I need, like, I need to reach out and get some help and I need to do this right away. And it's not that I didn't feel like I had that from Travella, but I felt like internally I just needed to find something that matched me and my, what I wanted to put out there. And I really felt like that's what you were offering. So I, you know, I am like, I have no money. I was so grateful you had a payment plan. I signed up, didn't tell him. And I'm like, this is what's going to—

What did you sign up for first?

Propose to Close, because that's what I like to do. Oh, that's good. Yeah.

That's my favorite.

Yeah.

Everybody always says like, get started with First Class Community, but I'm like, if you need help selling, like get your butt in Propose to Close.

And that's, I'm like, I'm all in. Like, if I'm gonna make a go of this, I'm gonna like, you know, invest in something that's gonna help me get there. And, and that's what brought me there. And I was literally in tears when I signed up. I'm like, okay, I'm spending money I don't have. Like I'm already kind of in the bad books. Having no money. Now I'm investing in this.

Wow. Well, they, I mean, I find that to be incredible and I'm so grateful that you trusted the processes of Propose to Close because I read your form and it said that you like immediately dove into it too. Like no time wasted to get it fully complete.

Oh no. But that's me. Like if I want to do something, I'm like, I'm all in instantly. There's no—

You invested in it. I mean, it's an expensive course compared to some others out there. So. I hate the word expensive, but that investment. So have you felt like that was a worthy investment of your initial, like, no income situation?

I honestly, it was almost immediately. Like, I think I can't even remember, but I think the calendar control was really early on and that was like a light bulb. And it's like, after I was like, when I got that and I, and I heard it, I was like, it seems so obvious. Like, why did I not even realize that? Like, I need to like make this a business and not just like make myself available all the time. And it just, it just really opened up a whole like, okay, there is like, I can do this. And that makes so much sense.

I fucking love that because it does seem like when you hear it in module 2, you're like, why didn't I think of this myself? But when you're deep into the hustle culture mindset of I've got to get clients, I've got to say yes to everything, I have to PM in the DMs and whatever, you feel like this is my opportunities, right? Like they're coming to me. I need to answer them right away. So what about calendar control has really rippled through not just your business life, but your home life and the family time and your stress levels?

Well, that was another issue is like, uh, Warren, he works in like, he's a millwright. So he works with his hands. He's always been like, so he really never does get the Being on a computer as a job, like to him, even though I did that, I wasn't at home, but now at home he just sees me on a computer and he's like, well, that's like, not that he doesn't think I'm working, but he's just like, you know, so that was hard, a hard concept for him to see that I was now at home sitting on a computer, not getting paid.

Right.

But I was also on my phone constantly. So I was like, the minute somebody messaged, I was like, oh my God, somebody wants to hire me and I gotta do this. And I was sending, you know, and it was just constant no matter where we were. So of course that was frustrating cuz it was like mid-sentence, I'd be like, you know, oh, stop, stop talking to him. And, you know, yeah, we were on vacation and I'm like, you know, doing this and that, staying back and, you know, messaging from the pool and like, you know, all these things. And so it was obviously causing a lot of issues, but I'm like, I need these clients. I need people to like, you know, and, uh, he's like, see, it's not worth it. Like you're doing all this, spending all your time working and getting no money. And so the minute That, that clicked in and like, I actually can have control over my time and let people know this is a business. Like, like, again, it's just so obvious, but it just, it really just instantly felt freeing to know that and that I could separate it.

Right.

And that I should. And—

Oh my gosh. Yes. I mean, we're just not told this. Like, it doesn't matter how good your host company is. They're not going to tell you like, control your calendar. They wouldn't even, you wouldn't even know what that actually means, which is why that module is so important because it literally walks you through the steps of Put yourself first. If you've ever read Profit First, it's kind of like pay yourself first. And in this mindset, it's give yourself back your own time first and then look at your calendar to see where the travel advisor business fits into your life instead of it running your life.

Exactly.

And I'm just, nobody has ever taught us that. Like, and it's not because they want us like drowning, but sadly the sales, you know, industry as a whole, not just in travel, is like, go, go, go, do, do, do. Respond, respond, respond. And it was like, no, we're moms, we're caregivers, we're wives, we're, we're friends, we're, you know, it's like I'm trying to have a conversation. I shouldn't have to stop to talk to this person unless they're traveling and they are. I can say to my husband, hey, I have 6 travelers on a plane right now. If they need anything, I might have to stop our conversation versus I'm just going to stop our conversation anytime somebody messages me, you know. Yeah.

And so that really made it, instantly made a change really, because even when I told, I told Warren about that, I said, okay, well, if people ask, tell them that they have to make an appointment. He's like, well, that people aren't going to want to make an appointment. I said, well, we're going to have to—

He's like, don't do that. This isn't going to work either.

But he was just like, it was so nervous.

We love a husband vibe.

But you know, and I get it. Like he was just so nervous. He's like, oh my gosh, if you're going to do this, like you can't scare people away, but I also don't want you doing this, but you know. But I think that he realized really quickly too that it was such a good balance. And then, you know, and then the more I started saying, okay, I'm only gonna work with certain people, like, you know, they have to make an appointment. If they're not, then, then I'm not gonna work with them. And then he started seeing that I was getting better clients. And so I was working less and the people that weren't serious, like that wouldn't even make an appointment, well then they clearly weren't probably not even gonna book a trip either.

Right.

It didn't take long for, I think, both of us to realize that was a, like, an amazing move.

That's fantastic. I'm so glad that it made almost what you feel is like an immediate shift.

Oh, it did. 100%. It did.

Do you feel like you got your return on investment back quickly? Or do you like, even in time, or do you feel like it takes that much longer? Like, where are your sales at now in comparison to when you were first getting started?

Well, at first, like, I was selling mostly just Like really cheap all-inclusives. Cause that's like, that's what we, we have from here. And so I really didn't make a lot, like I did make sales, but because they were so, you know, it was just a really budget all-inclusive in here. It was so low. Um, and I've like, I like, I've got my 100% commission, I think in the first 5 months this, this year. So.

Oh my gosh. In your second year, you got to your 100% in 5 months. So that's $15,000 in commissionable income.

Yeah.

That is awesome.

No, I was like, I was just like, okay.

And you're using Propose to Close?

Absolutely. 100%.

And I am obsessed.

Oh my God.

Congratulations.

Well, thank you.

Like, oh my God.

I follow everything. Like, again, I dive in and like, if I'm gonna invest in this, I am 100%. I'm gonna listen to everything. And so—

I love that, Dena.

Yeah. Like there was a lot of scariness, like a lot. Like I really worried about scaring clients away, but I'm like, no, I signed up for this. I paid for it. I'm doing it. Like, whether it's scary or not, I'm gonna do it.

And, uh, I love that.

It did scare some people away, but it, it, I learned over time it's the right people. Like, you know, and, uh, and to not, to not to be offended if people aren't like wanting to use my services. Like, I honestly never get offended. Like, I, I, I think Warren does a little bit more cuz he'll be like, oh, so-and-so went on a trip and they didn't contact you. I'm like, nah, whatever. I'm like, I only wanna work with people that wanna work with me.

Now he's defensive.

He's like, I know the best.

Like, why didn't they hire you?

I know.

I am obsessed with Warren. You call him, he is a good egg. Like, you know, it's just the rational side too. Like that balance of like, I'm going for it. And then he's like, but, but, but, and now he's like, what the hell? They're not working with you.

I know.

Bullshit. I'm obsessed.

Him and I are so different. Like he's very cautious. He's not one to make a jump without thinking. And I'm the opposite. So we kind of balance each other out, which is always great because I'm all like— We all have a Warren.

We all need a Warren in our life.

But he's, he's a lot more supportive now because he sees that this is something that it could be real. And he sees like, as I'm improving—

It is real.

Yes.

It is real. It's not can be. You're doing the damn thing.

But I think he is thinking that way because, you know, he's still— I knew like right from the beginning, I'm like, I can make this work. I just need to figure out how to do it properly. And, but now he's seeing like all the changes I made and how it's working for me and I'm getting busier. He's a lot more like, okay, like this is it. And he's really good at, um, you know, promoting me and everything more. I think at first he was just like, like, what are people gonna think? Like, you know, just because—

I know, I know. I, I, I can relate to that feeling. I'm sure a lot of us can relate. Like, we've told our husband this and he thinks it might just be this little hobby, midlife crisis in your case, maybe. Like, oh, you've done this thing for 30 years, what do you— who do you think you are, like, changing and doing something brand new? Like, are we too old for that? And I just genuinely believe we're never too old to try something new, be something that we've always wanted to be for ourselves. And I feel like you really leaned into that. You didn't have like kids at home even like making fun of you. How do your adult children feel about you being a travel advisor? And like, what is your relationship with them like?

Oh, well, my son is very, he's very blunt too. And he was like, of course he made fun of me at first. He, well, he was 23 at the time. So he's like, what do you mean you're gonna be a travel advisor? He's like, I've never even heard of anybody use a travel advisor ever. And I'm like, well, of course you haven't. You're 23.

Like, you don't have no money. Or to go on a vacation, let alone hire a driver.

But they also know that I am not one to sit around and not do anything. Like, I think that Warren really initially kind of thought that I was using it as a way to just secretly retire and pretend I was just—

Okay.

Okay. You know, 'cause he didn't think it was real. And so yeah, Braxton made fun of me, but he's, they kind of just know that I'm just gonna, if I'm gonna run with something, I'm gonna run with it. And my daughter's always supportive. She's very sweet and very, you know, positive and, and she was a little bit younger and was kind of like, meh, whatever this is what mom's doing now. Like, weird, she's changing careers. But, you know, um, they, they know that if I'm gonna do something, I'm just gonna do it and I'm 100% gonna run with it. And Braxton actually worked from home too, so we spent a lot of time like his lunch hours and stuff. So he saw—

Oh, that's really cool!

Yeah, he saw how hard I was working, and so he knew, like, he knew the effort I was putting in. And he's in, um, He's in a computer, like he does data developer type stuff. I ask him stuff, you know, computer stuff once in a while, and he always makes fun of me and calls me—

Your own personal IT person.

Yeah, people's like, okay, I'll help you with your boomer stuff. And I always say, I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X, stop saying that.

Like, whatever, millennial.

Yeah, exactly.

Whatever. I guess he's probably a Zer.

Yeah.

And so— I'm an old millennial. They call me, my kids are like, you're, an old millennial. I'm like, what does that even mean? I know.

So he always calls me boomer, but he'll always be like, oh, I'll help you with your boomer stuff. I'm like, you should be happy that I still wanna learn stuff. I said, I, I just need to understand how this works. And so he'd help me out with work. And even when I told him I was doing this podcast, I called him to make sure it sounded good yesterday. And he's like, oh, you're just gonna be like the boomer mom with your face all really close. And he just likes to bug me. And I'm like, I'm a Gen X.

I love that. Well, I love that your family and everyone around you has really lifted you up and you You were really, I hate to use the word lucky because you did so much research. So I'll say that you just really did it right, Deanna. Like you researched this, you took a time to choose. And I think if we all slowed down a little bit out of our excitement, because that's really, I think, how we get caught up, right?

Yeah.

And so doing that has really set you off on the right path right away. And then obviously finding somebody that you mesh with in terms of mentorship is That is huge. I love that for you and I'm so proud of you. I think this is such a cool story that I think so many travel advisors are gonna be inspired by because you didn't give up when it got hard. You made a pivot early. You didn't let it happen like 40 more times. You're like, no, I'm not gonna be treated like this anymore. I'm gonna make this change. So like, I'm curious if you were to give 3 pieces of advice, freebie, like you can walk out of this podcast today, you can get outta your car line and go straight home and do something for free for your business that doesn't cost any extra. It's not investing in a course. Like, what would you advise a new travel agent or a veteran, a new or veteran travel agent to do today to move their business forward? 3 pieces of advice.

Okay. Calendar control for sure.

Obviously we love, I mean, yes. And guys, if you have ADHD, I swear calendar control will make you so happy. I, I thought it was gonna be really challenging, but I love a color-coded calendar. So like, Where do you keep your calendar at, Dena?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not very good at that.

Oh, she's like, nevermind. I don't really wanna talk about this.

No, no, no. I, uh, yeah, no, I have Calendly and, um, like my attached to all my stuff like that. Like I did all the things you told me to do.

Perfect. So link it all up, share it with your family, make sure everybody knows what's going on, but first and foremost that you know what's going on.

Absolutely. And it is like my, like Warren has the link and so he knows what I have for appointments and what I've got going on and all that stuff. The second one would be to To really come in with confidence instead of like, you know, acting like, oh, I'm like, you know, nervous.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like you really, like, if you're doing this, you really obviously do have passion and skill and something that you're offering people. And you really need to lead with that so that people have confidence in you. Because if you're not confident yourself, people are not gonna be confident in you.

So, right.

I wish I would've come in like I normally would in my legal career as this is what you're getting instead of like, Well, okay, I'll do anything you ask. 'Cause that's not me. Like, I can't even believe that I even ever did that, but I did 'cause I wasn't sure. I was like—

Yeah, I understand though, because when we're trying something new, we have that imposter syndrome, you know? And I talk to a lot of advisors who are like, I just don't know. And I'm not sure if I should do this. It's like, but you already did the most courageous thing, which is step forward into this career, which is an entrepreneurial career that That is, that takes gumption. That takes like grit. So you have to like dig deep in your stomach some days to like be more confident, but I understand why it happens. But I love that you recognized very early on that you were going to have to shift that mindset or it was not gonna work.

Well, for sure. Like it was, I was just spinning my wheels. Mm-hmm. For sure. And like I said, I, I was just, I was lurking in the background with your courses for a while, like just cuz I did stumble upon, upon them pretty early with Lori, like, and so I had already been following you. And so I knew that that was something I wanted to invest in. So yeah, when I was like, okay, things aren't working, like, I know what I need to do and this is what I need to invest in. And so yeah, I'm really glad for you honestly. And I appreciate that that resource is out there because I know you, you continue to say that, you know, you, you get pushback, but like, thank God for you because I like, I went to conference this year. like met many seasoned advisors and I heard some of them saying things that I was like, oh my gosh, they've been doing this forever and they're still like frustrated with things that I was frustrated at the beginning. Then I'm like, this needs to go.

It does. And I think it's hard for seasoned advisors who are in habitual cycles to get out of them. I mean, that's basically what happened to me. I burnt out after being in the industry for 8 years and it's super hard to come back from that. Like if you, especially like fully pivot and change when you have already been doing it a certain way forever.

Yeah.

But they don't necessarily see it as a negative. They just feel like shit.

Yeah.

But they don't know, like there's no one saying it doesn't have to be this way.

Yeah.

I mean, that's really how this all came to be was I was like, guys, it doesn't have to be this way. Like I'm doing it like this. And my husband was the one that was like, you could teach 'em how to do this. You know?

Yeah.

And I'm like, no one is gonna listen to me. What the fuck? Like I already am annoying and I have, you know, I get pushback all I got kicked out of a Facebook group for being a know-it-all and dropping my link and shouldn't have dropped my link.

Oh, okay.

But I'm like, but my link is like, it's not even about the sale. It's like, I just want you to have access to more information to make better choices so that you can get out of the DMs, the DM cycle. I feel like it's just such a cycle and we, we think this is the only way to do it. So I'm always like, whenever I talk to a new advisor, I'm so proud of the work because It doesn't have to be this way, but also I didn't think that that's who I wrote this for. I thought I wrote it for the veteran who needed change, cuz that's who I was.

Yeah.

But it turns out you guys are fucking kicking ass and taking names and really showing that this industry can change in the most incredible positive way. Like, it makes me wanna cry. And it's the reason these results is why I keep getting up and just like, I don't care about the emails I get. I don't care about like the hate mail I get because Because there's way more of you willing to talk about this now than there, you know, than, than are that are gonna roll up on me anymore. So it's been awesome watching you and just like so cool. Okay, y'all, let's pause for a quick break. I need you to know you have never been trained in sales. Yeah, you might know how to use your CRM and book a preferred vendor or post on Instagram, but none of that teaches you how to close the damn sale. And if you're tired of hearing that travel sells itself while you watch prospects take your hard work and book elsewhere, it's time to fucking change that. I am introducing you to the Propose to Close Sales Course, a no-BS step-by-step program designed to help travel advisors like you weed out tire kickers, Stop quoting in the DMs and finally close sales without feeling pushy or salesy. This intensive 10-hour, 9-module course will teach you how to qualify prospects, send one fabulous proposal instead of 5, 10, 15, build real connections very quickly, and close the sale in under a week. Whether you're brand new or a veteran stuck in burnout. This course will give you the skills and confidence to transform your travel business and your fucking life. So if you're ready to stop spinning those wheels and start running a business that works for you, head to my website to grab the Propose to Close sales course. And don't forget to check out the show notes for an exclusive coupon code. Okay, now back to the pod.

Like, you don't know, right? When you start, you just don't— like, I mean, I love travel. I knew how to do the research. I had all the Travelo back, like, for what we need to to know. And they do touch on the, you know, all this stuff too. But again, they just give you the information and you need to like kind of take and ask what, like questions for like, and so I didn't even know what I needed to ask or what I needed to do. And I think that's why there's so many people that don't do it differently. Cuz like you said, nobody's told them it doesn't have to be like that.

Right.

And I actually lead now a lot of times when people ask me, well, what can you, like, can you look for this trip? And I, I will say I probably work differently than what you have in the past with other travel advisors or what you believe, but this is, this is what it's like to work with me. And again, that's your, like, you know, your voice in my head. But, um, I put it right out there right at the beginning so that people understand, like, I'm not a booking engine. This is probably different than what you're expecting, but this is, this is what my business model is. And I really find that really helps right from the beginning.

Right. You're setting an expectation and it's so easy to set that expectation. Is that your number 3? I interrupted you and didn't get to it. Yeah.

Well, I think my number 3 would be to just really treat it like a business. Like, you know, like, like you are, you're like, you're leading, like you're the one that tells people to work with you. And you, you like repeat that over and over. And it's so true because it's not hard to do. Like, it's just, you have to make sure that you do it right from the beginning and that you're confident in that and, and to really believe it yourself that this is your business and these people are coming to you because they want your services. You're not out there begging people to work with you. Well, at least I, I don't want to. And I, and I feel like the more confidence you get, the more you portray that too, is, you know, you're coming to me. I'm here to, to do what you need, but I'm not out there begging you to work with me because like you're coming to me for services, you know?

Well, yeah, I always say like they asked you for help. So this, you're, if you're annoying them, that's on them because they literally asked you to get this information together for them. So you do need to do the steps to get them booked or they're not gonna get booked. They're just gonna be like, you ghosted me because you were afraid to follow up or you were afraid to ask me questions. And that is 100% true. And the people who don't wanna be bothered, they will figure their way out of it, especially using the option sequence that I have for you guys with the option 1, option 2, option 3.

Oh, I love it.

Yeah. And you can use it in every single part of your business to get an answer from somebody. Like, we're gonna make this easy on you to respond.

Exactly. And I love that too, because it gives people an out without it being awkward. So you can literally walk away from that without either of you feeling like it was a negative situation, you know?

Absolutely.

And, and I do feel that way. And like, if I'm not the fit for you, that is totally fine. Like, I have no emotion attached to that at all because this is what it's like to work with me. And what I found is that it's really opened up the opportunity for me to realize how much I really love customizing people's trips and not just booking and And that's really what I get joy out of is working with the detailed trips and, and really planning them and really customizing them. And so by having people come in and charging a fee, that was another thing that—

I love a fee. So what do you charge as a new travel advisor?

Well, I started, well, at first I, I was just selective and I was like, well, I'll charge $50 here and there. And then I started realizing, okay, people don't mind paying this. And like in your groups and stuff, we talk about that all the time and having the confidence. And I try to participate in the groups a lot. I'll put stuff out there. And I think it was you that just said like, why are you giving friends and family a discount? I'm like, well, cause I feel like I should. And then I'm like, I don't know. Why am I? Like, I'm still doing this service.

We must normalize not giving discounts to our friends and family and also not asking for one. I would not ask my cousin who does hair to give me a discount on my hair. Like, you're like, I want to be a very specific blonde. Okay. So I don't really want you to be back there mad that I asked for this discount. Like, mess with my hair. Why would we ask a vacation planner to discount their service? When they're gonna be busting their ass for us. Like, we wanna make sure they answer their phone when we're stranded at the airport.

Yeah.

Those services, that time is valuable and should be paid for. So what are you charging now?

Well, and then like, that was more for not even all-inclusives, cuz I thought, well, people aren't gonna pay for all-inclusives. And then again, in one of your groups, somebody said they paid and I'm like, what? People will pay you for all-inclusive? Like, well, yeah, they do. And I'm like, well, I don't think anybody will. And I'm like, and then again, I, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna start charging people again more. Like, well, no reason to pay for an all-inclusive. I'm like, I don't know. I, I just feel like I need to because I'm getting all these budget clients now. Mm-hmm. Which I, I appreciate that people have budgets. It's not that I don't, I don't love that they're coming to me. Like I always appreciate anybody that comes to me, but like it's, it's the work is double. Like most of the time.

It is. And I don't think people realize that, Deena. Like, yeah. And I don't think we would have realized it. No. If we weren't actually experiencing it every day. But it takes so much more effort to find the perfect property for a client who has less than $3,000 to spend. And that can be so challenging. So your time on that alone is worth being paid.

Yeah. And just realizing that the clients that are looking for the cheapest deal and want the cheapest resort and literally want that don't need me. I don't, like, I don't need to book that trip for you. And I also don't want to book that resort because I know you're going to hate it. So I don't want my name attached to it. So I really just tell people like, you know what, if this is like, you know, I customize trips, I do this. If, and they're like, oh, I just want a cheap budget trip. And I'm like, well, you don't need me for that. Like you can just go book that then and maybe next time you'll want to work with me and being okay with that because I really don't want to book those trips. I want to customize them. I want to work with people. So, um, now I'm charging, um, $200 for all inclusives.

Love it.

I have for the last probably year been charged. I was charging $100. I opted and I really cut like for the other—

Congratulations. That is a lot. Like that is amazing. I am so excited for you.

And like I said, I, I give you all the credit for giving me the confidence to be like in your group. Like you, you have an amazing group too. Like the people in the groups are awesome. And then I just customize any of the, like the other trips, just depending like when I have the consultation and figure out how much time it's gonna take. And I really honestly almost never get pushed back anymore. And, and the people are so grateful and I'm working with the right kind of trips and, and I, you know, it really has opened up the opportunity to work specifically with people that I wanna work with. And I'm getting so busy, I can't even believe it. Honestly, like, I'm—

you are such a badass girl. Like, the snowball is snowballing. Yeah.

I, I can't even believe, like, it just, I just, I kind of just felt like it was happening and like, oh my God, I'm getting all these people now. But I also do credit it to your Facebook group course, cuz I had a Facebook group before.

Okay.

Because I did fitness classes and so I had kind of one, but I wasn't very active in it, but it was still pretty big. But it was pretty dormant. So I took your Facebook group class next and then incorporated all of that into that group and revived it. And it just took off.

Like, that is amazing.

So that helped a lot too. And, you know, people see you and I already knew this before that people watch for a very long time before they, they'll a lot of times speak up and sometimes you don't even know they're there. And I knew that that was true.

And so, well, that was you.

Yeah. And again, that—

I mean, you're like, I watched and I watched before I said anything. I think sometimes it's ironic when somebody tells me this because they're like, oh, I took a while, Marcie. And I'm like, okay, well then why would you think it would happen overnight for your clients?

Exactly.

Yeah, I'm getting like goosebumps. That's so cool.

I knew I had to be consistent. And like, you, again, that course just gave me that mindset. Like, yeah, you have to keep posting even when people aren't commenting. And even if— because they're there. And I knew that, but it's just like you kind of get bored and lazy and, you know, you're like, well, no one's commenting.

Well, and annoyed. Like, you're like, why screaming into a void. Nobody's watching, but they are.

So I really think that, that the busyness now is the payoff from doing this for a year and a half in the group. And people are starting to see, and I, I'm very transparent about, you know, charging fees and why I do and what it's like to work with me. And, and so I, I really feel like I am speaking to the right clients and I'm, I'm shocked daily with people that reach out. I'm like, I didn't even know they followed me. And, you know, and they're asking for these great trips that I'm, I'm so excited to plan. And, you know, and I— yeah. And so I am, I'm getting busier, but I still It's still always, it's, I don't know if this ever goes away that you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so busy. I told Lauren last week, I think I'm going to have to just close my calendar down for a couple of weeks because I need to get caught up. And then 2 days when you don't hear from somebody, you're like, oh, what if nobody ever messages me again?

Oh my gosh. We have to push that back, girl. Like, I don't know if you've listened to her podcast, but Miranda Leach did a podcast. It's episode 6. It's about that. It's about like that fear that if I stop working, that I won't make any more money. I won't have any more clients. And it, I'm, I was crying. Listen, I was just like, cause I've been there too. And I think a lot of us can relate. Like, well, what if I shut down my calendar and they think I'm, I'm never going to come back? It's like, at what point are you really going to trust this process and know that you actually get to control when you come back, when you work, who you work with. And like, when you get ownership of that, you will realize it doesn't matter how many hours you work. You own every part and every step of your business.

Yeah.

I just, that is so freaking cool.

Yeah, no, I do. I know it's gonna, like, I know it's there, but it's just in the back of my head. It's, it's very hard to just be independent when you've had a steady income forever and just be like relying on this.

But it is, but it's gonna be steady soon. Like you're gonna start bringing in that income on a regular basis. You've already hit your $15,000 in income this year to get to that next level. And I think it's so incredible. Your story is just I think it's inspiring, honestly. And there isn't anyone out there like you. And I think that's the other thing we have to own as travel advisors. Yeah, there's a lot of travel advisors, but there's no travel advisor like Deena. Like there really isn't. And that's why I love that you give them a heads up and say, this is how I do it. It's probably not how other travel advisors do it, but this is how I do it. And it's like, well, that sounds great. Some people really thrive in that. And then others are like, well, I really just want the— it's like, then I'm not the right fit. We're not saying don't go on vacation, you know, we're just saying, hey, we might not be the right fit for that vacation. And that abundance mindset of just knowing that there's another person right around the corner who is the right fit. It's just like believing in that, manifesting that, visualizing that. And I think that is so powerful for you. Like that is—

Well, that was kind of easy. That part was kind of easy for me because I've always been kind of a strong personality. I say what I think. So I, I'm not always for everyone and I know that. And I've had to learn that. So that's been a constant in my life.

We have a lot in common.

That, that is nothing new to me and I'm aware of it, but I'm fine with that because, you know, again, like I surround myself with people that are like me that will call me on, on my bullshit and tell me, and I love that. I'm like that. And that, like, what you see is what you get. And so why would it be different in my business? Like, it's exactly the same.

100%. Okay. I have one more question. What is your unpopular opinion about the travel industry?

Geez, that's a tough one.

I know. And I didn't quite prepare you for that because it's not on the form. Like, what is something you're just like, everybody believes this, but it's just bullshit. It's not true. Or like something that everybody thinks might be a certain way, like even clients.

That's easy. That they don't care about, like you don't care about where you go, what your room is, and that you just want cheap. Like, I honestly believe nobody wants cheap. I don't even care what your budget is. And I, I totally portray that now. And I've, I've implemented some of, I started Commission with a Comma because I was so excited that I wanted to. And so, um, being the minimum spend, like it's not even because I want people to, and again, I just started it and I've already, I already implemented that yesterday when—

Oh my gosh. I love that for you.

Yeah. They're like, I want this cheap. We just want to spend this and that. And I'm like, I've seen it more and more. I'm like, no, I can't get that for you. You need to be prepared to spend a minimum of this to get a resort that I'm willing to promote because other than that, I can't, I'm I'm not, I'm not willing to put that out there. So you give us so many words of wisdom that things that I, I want to say, you tell us how to say it in a way that's professional and true. I don't think anybody wants a cheap budget trip. Like they think they want the money, but they will never like that trip. Like a cheap trip is expensive if you hate it. And I say that all the time.

Well, yeah, we don't have a lot of time off. I mean, I, I mean, my husband gets 21-ish days off a year. So like if we go on a shitty vacation, What was the point? He might as well have worked. And then he's bitching and moaning and babying around. Like, I, I don't think people realize the impact that a shitty vacation is going to have on them.

Yeah.

But also, I love that you're just like finding the words that you want to say the best way, because I also think that is part of sales, and that can be taught, you guys. Like, I always tell people, you can be taught how to sell, but if don't say it with like that confidence and say it with this, you know, like grit, like, I know I'm right. Like, I know that you do not want to go on a shitty vacation.

Yeah.

It's like, come on, guys. But that's so true. So many people think I just want the cheapest thing. I'm totally fine. I'm like, yeah, but you're not 20 anymore.

Exactly.

Like you need things to be comfortable. Literally whether you spend $3,000 or $30,000, you want to have have a really comfortable vaccine, if that's what you're going for, or memorable trip, and not because you got Montezuma's Revenge.

Yeah. Well, and that's what, like, I want people to come back and be like, that was amazing. I'm so glad you—

Like, let's go again.

That's what I want. And that, like, I hate that it's sales. Like, it's not— I know it is, but I hate that because I never want to sell anybody anything. And I, and I never thought I'd ever get into anything where I was selling people. I have before with nutrition stuff, but again, it's Like, I'm just passionate. So I just want my passion to spill over onto people. I don't wanna sell them. And so I love that your methods really take that salesy part of it out, cuz I don't like that. I don't wanna sell anybody anything. I want them to want to work with me. I want them to want what I'm helping them with. I don't wanna convince them. And I really feel like if you're getting a cheap budget trip, you're just buying whatever and fitting yourself into something that doesn't fit. And I like, that's not what I want. Like, I don't wanna just sell you anything. I want you to come back like saying, that was freaking amazing. I didn't even know I could have a vacation like that.

And then they wanna go again. They tell their friends about you. Like, that's where the snowball is occurring for you because you really put your energy into creating memories that they want to share with their loved ones again. And then they wanna tell everybody about it. And that is so powerful in our industry. That's how we grow. And I'm so pumped for you. But my gosh, thank you so much for being here today. I mean, this honesty is what we're looking for. And that messy middle can be exhausting and it won't be the last time there's challenges, but I know there's someone out there listening who's balancing all of these things that you're balancing, the caregiving, the career that maybe has come and gone and wondering, can they make this travel advisor thing work? And your story's gonna give them the courage and the confidence to keep going.

I know.

I think I'm really excited that you came today.

Oh, I'm so happy you had me. I was so excited when you invited me to come on here. I was like, I love talking and I love, I like, I want people to love what they're doing if they're really in this. Cause I like, I knew that I wanted to do this. I just, I really honestly believe if I didn't find your courses, I probably wouldn't be doing this anymore. Like I would have gave up cause it was just like, I felt like I don't, I don't know how to do this and not just be a booking engine. And you really teach that.

Thank you so much. That, that makes me so emotional, but it also is like continually helps me get out of bed every day that you guys are having this kind of, I guess, just results, right? We want results when we invest. And I told somebody yesterday, she said, I told my husband that anything you write or do, I want, and you live up to the standard. And I was like, that is a high bar. Like, but I was like, I will pull it off the market if it sucks.

Every time that you post something, I'm like, damn it, Marcie, now I need that.

It's like, you know what? I'm just listening to you guys. Like, you guys will post stuff and I'm like, Oop, I know how to do that. I'll teach you guys, you know? And it's not like, I mean, it's fun. It's fun for me, but it's also important for me for not just, it's not about me, but it's like so fun to watch this industry shift into less hustle mindset and, and also just honoring who we are and, and how we do this. And I find the women especially, we want it all. And I do believe we can have it all a certain way. And my husband always says, you will find the way to work less.

Yeah.

Watch your shows.

Yeah. But that's, that's what you need, a balance. And that's the things I worked hard for 30 years and got nothing out of it. And I'm like, I don't want, like, I don't want this to feel like work because I honestly do love what I'm doing. But I also have to balance that because I literally could work from 5 in the morning till the evening every day if I let myself. But another thing I do want to point out that people should know is that you are really in it. Like you're in your groups and stuff, you reply to people like you You don't just throw people in there and like, you know, peace out.

Yeah.

And that's what drew me to you also is like, you legitimately are there helping. Like you're there, you obviously care. You're obviously like really care about like who you're helping. And I love that. Like, because I'm like that too. I'm like, I'll help anybody like get where they need to be. And I believe that we should all work together and not like, you know, um, gatekeep and not help. Like why would we not wanna help each other? And I love that you're You know, helping everybody. I don't even know how you have time to do all that, but you are.

Sometimes I'm still a workaholic is the answer to that. But no, I feel honored that people invest in what I have to offer. And sometimes I don't know if, you know, it's like, I know it's for the right reasons and I want to be there too. Yeah. I don't want to let anyone down. I want people to know like, yeah, you invested, or even if you don't invest, I don't care. Honestly, I want you to get out of this what you you need from what I can share. And I think it's just beautiful to see that that is like that, my vision of this industry. Because when I started this, I was like, who do I even think I am, like teaching a bunch of like— and it just, it's real. Well, it's snowballing, girl. Like it's out of control some days. And I'm like, okay, I need a break. I like, I have to turn it off, you know? But I'm so happy. And, and yeah, I do spend a lot more time coaching now than selling travel. But that's my Right. It's like, I'm so excited for you guys. I want you guys selling travel. There's enough to go around and do so in a way that you can live your life the way you wanna live it and retire with your husband when he's ready and travel and just have the life you wanna have. I, I'm so—

Well, thank you so much. No, no, thank you.

Like, this was so much fun as a first back to the pod, and I haven't told anyone that I'm releasing it, so I'm excited for next week. Well, I don't know. You know how I am. I'm always like, maybe next week.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited too.

Yes. Well, thank you again for being here and I'm just, I can't wait to continue to watch your journey.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, girl. That's a wrap on today's episode, friend. Thanks for hanging out with me again on the No BS Travel Advisor Podcast. I hope you're leaving this episode feeling fired up, inspired, and ready to take back control of your travel. Of your business, and let's be honest, your fucking life. If today's episode hit home, do me a favor and share it with your fellow travel advisors who need to hear this, and don't forget to leave a review. Your support means the world and helps me reach more badass advisors like you. And hey, if you've got a story to share or some no BS advice of your own, you've taken a course or two of mine, maybe you've been a coaching client, I want to hear from you. Head to my website to apply to be a guest. I'd love to feature you on an upcoming episode. Until then, you fucking got this. Keep being bold, keep being unapologetic, and keep building the business you fucking deserve. This is Marcie Munsterman signing off with zero fluff and a whole lot of heart.