Should You Contribute to Your Traditional IRA, or Go Roth Instead?

Your kids can inherit anything from you worth a million bucks. Shouldn't be your house, shouldn't be your traditional retirement account. The most powerful one is going to be the Roth IRA advisors that can't get creative.

They love this argument because they have nothing else better. That's their only dumb idea. So I got a write off on 100 grand, but I'm going to pay tax on a million. I'd rather pay tax on 100 grand than never pay tax on that million. People are told they're going to be in a lower tax bracket when they retire. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't happen. Welcome, everybody, to the Main Street Business Podcast. My name is Mark Kohler. I'm here with the amazing, illustrious, incredible Matt Sorenson. Three adjective throwdown right there.

That's right. Go for four on the next one. That's okay. You don't have to be modest. Yeah, I don't know.

Hold back. Sorry. I won't. I apologize. I was just trying to protect you from, you know, yourself, but dangerous, you know. Thanks, everybody for listening. This is a big show because you may be getting a call from your advisor or accountant or whoever the hell saying, oh, it's time to put money in traditional ira. And that's the only strategy they've got. And you're like, I got to put money in my IRA before I file my tax return so I can get a write off. We want to caution you to think twice. So today's show is about that difference between taking a write off on your traditional or just sticking to the true course. Little subtle spoiler alert of the Roth ira. I don't know. We're going to debate both.

Yeah. Let me explain. Just for everybody here, let's set the stage of what is the difference between traditional and Roth pros and cons on a traditional account? Remember, this is traditional IRA or traditional 401k. I put the contribution in, I get a tax deduction. Let's say I contributed 10 grand into my traditional 401k. I get, and I'm in a 30% federal and a 5% state tax bracket, that 10 grand contribution that reduces my taxable income by 10 grand, which means I will pay 35% less in tax on the 10 grand. 3,500 bucks. So I got a $3,500 tax savings because I put in $10,000 into a traditional account. And that's the primary incentive of a traditional account. Now, when you invest the money, you don't pay tax. It grows, but the snag on the traditional account, which is the baggage, is you pay taxes as you draw the money out, the money you put in, and all the earnings and growth, you're paying tax as you pull it out. Now, the Roth is the exact opposite. You put 10 grand into your Roth 401k or 7,500 bucks in your Roth IRA, zero tax deduction. The IRS is like, good for you.

Yeah.

No tax. Now, I invest that money, I don't pay taxes. It grows. But the key of the Roth account and why we love it is it's tax free on the way out. Once I hit 59 and a half, every penny, I pull out all the investment growth, the money I put in, zero tax on the way out.

Yeah.

Now, I've got another reason I like the Roth IRA over the traditional ira. Okay. All right. Okay. When you put money in a Roth IRA, and this doesn't apply to the backdoor Roth IRA, but when you put money in a Roth IRA, let's say you put the $7,500 annual contribution in. Let's say you did that for 10 years for $75,000 of contributions. Now, with all the investment growth, let's say the whole account is worth 125 grand. Let's say you're 45 years old at this point. Well, what if I want to access this money early? I want to start a business, I have some emergency in my life or whatever. How do I get that money out?

Oh, you got to pay a penalty. That's what they say.

If you had a traditional ira, that's what you'd have to do. And you pay taxes by pulling it out. But In a Roth IRA, the contributions you put in that 10 years of 7,500 bucks, 75 grand, I can pull out whenever I want. Zero tax, zero penalty, no exception required. I could use the money and go on a trip to Vegas or go bet it on the Super Bowl. It doesn't matter. That money is yours. You can pull out at any time. It's only the investment returns and growth that you're waiting until you're 59 and a half. So I have better access to the money in the Roth IRA than I do a traditional.

Yeah. Now the debate begins, and this is where typical advisors, especially those that started practicing in 1980 or 1990, will say, oh, but if you look at the math, you know it's going to end up being the same. And returns and da, da. We're going to get into that. And there's pros and cons of both. And we want to break all that down and excited to be here with you on this because this is, this is a big topic.

And this was, and this was inspired by a show question. Yeah. Came in from Margate on the Main street business podcast site. So this, we're going to actually read that question to set up the table here. But that was. This is where it's coming from. It's coming from you guys.

Yeah. And I want to. Oh, that just reminded me, I want to say this too. Before we get into it, some of you high income earners, we go, guys, it's moot because I make too much money. Oh, we're going to talk about the backdoor Roth IRA near the end of this show too. I'm sure as we kind of point out that whether you're high income, low income, have a 401k, don't have a 401k, doesn't matter. All of you can do a Roth IRA no matter what income level you're at. And if you have a 401k or not, or your spouse, all those, it's a lot of myths and misconceptions out there. So keep that in mind as we dive into this. So Matt, tell us about that question.

All right, let's hit the first question here. I got one from Margate5, says Mark and Matt, huge fans of both of your shows. We do have a directed IRA podcast as well. It seems that the assumption recommendation with all accounts we have whether to be Invest with an IRA or 401k, is that it be via a Roth? My question is why so emphatically Roth? I understand the analogy of it being a tax free ATM one day in the future. However, the biggest and valid pro traditional argument is that presumably most of us when we reach retirement age and can withdraw from these accounts will be in a lower tax bracket than when not working compared to our high income years. I hope you're not in the workforce. Yeah, exactly. Yes, it is unpredictable. Okay, let's just stop there actually. Okay, this is actually a really good point and I'll tell you, if you take the tax rate being the exact same from when you contribute to a Roth or traditional to when you start pulling the money out at retirement, it is a wash. There is no benefit between the two. It is really hard to argue that one is better than the other. And because let's think of the traditional. Let me just argue the traditional. You've heard us talk about the Roth here and the tax free atm. I get no deduction when I put the money in, but it grows and comes out totally tax free in retirement. Right. That's the Roth argument that we are usually on the Roth train on. We love Roth. The traditional argument is alright, if I've got ten grand to put into a retirement account, but I'm in a 30% tax bracket that might save me $3,000 in taxes. And if I take that 3,000 and invest it, I actually have more investable money to grow because it helps me today by having more money to set aside to invest. The problem is, the problem is on the way out, I'm going to pay tax on that. And if you think about, let me say this, if you think of that additional 3,000, let's say that you put that you invested. We're assuming you're maxing out your retirement account. So I've already put in my 7500 bucks to my IRA. This is another 3000 outside the IRA. Run with me here in the numbers. Let's say it's two grand, whatever.

Okay.

But that's in a taxable account as well. But I've ran the calculators on this. Everybody's got a not. I said everybody. There's a lot of calculators. You can run the pros and cons on this. Here's what I've seen to People get surprised by and this is where it gets into the 10,000 hours and the 20 years of experience. Most people that are really good savers and contribute, particularly our business owner clients and entrepreneurs, have more income in retirement. They think that they're not, but they are. They have more investment income which is still taxable. That affects your tax rate. They've got business income still coming through. They might not be working every day, but they still may own the business. They may have a stream of payout from selling the business affecting their tax rate. And so my experience has been a lot of our clients, their actually tax rate is not going down in retirement because they actually have more income than they thought. Now I will say maybe you're someone in a career where you are not putting money into rental real estate that could have cash flow or other assets and you. And you're gonna just like stop and retire. I can see the traditional argument there where you will be in a lower tax bracket and it will be less painful on the traditional distributions on the way out.

Okay, okay.

There's a lot there.

There was good. That was good. And you brought up so many great points and I want to every take a breath for a minute that there's A lot to consume there. Let me give you an example from another area of planning. Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey teaches the debt snowball, which we do as well. If you're in debt with a bunch of credit cards, student loans, la la la la, you build a debt snowball. The debt snowball is taking the smallest accounts first to the largest balances, putting them in a progressive order and setting aside just a few extra hundred dollars and then keep making your minimum payments. But then you're going to allocate that extra money to the first one. Soon as you pay that off, you roll everything into the next one, create that snowball and boom, boom, boom. You get out of debt 80% faster. The debt snowball, okay. It's awesome. Well, there's also called the debt avalanche. It's a whole other concept where you, you actually don't put them in order of lowest to highest balances, you put them in order of the worst interest rate to the best interest rate and you pay off the worst interest rates first. Now technically the debt avalanche saves you money and you actually get out of debt faster too. The problem is human nature. You don't create that momentum of some quick wins of paying off those lower debts first. And getting that, those celebrations go on to the Dave Ramsey social media channel, their website people are like, I paid off card, I paid off a card and then I'm debt free. And though that, that's energy, that's exciting and people feel that and they make progress. So technically, like Matt said, if you can, you're in the same tax bracket. I'll come back to that assumption as well. But if you, let's just say you are and you do the math, it's a break even. The problem is human nature. People don't take that extra tax savings and make good decisions with it and reinvest the tax savings at the same rate, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Technically they would end up maybe even a better spot, but people don't. The Roth IRA is like that human nature safety net that I know I'm never going to pay tax on it again. And it works. It just is easier than this damn math. Your thoughts?

And if you have a Roth IRA and you're doing a retirement account strategy, that is the last account you draw from and this is the account and the assets you want your kids to inherit. I'm just telling you if your kids can inherit anything from you worth a million bucks, shouldn't be your house, shouldn't be your traditional retirement account, shouldn't be your brokerage account. The most powerful one is going to be the Roth IRA or Roth 401K. Even though I get step up in basis on the house or the brokerage account, fine, those are good. But the Roth account, they get another 10 years to draw and pull this out tax free. Whereas if you did traditional and your kids inherit that, they're in their working years, they're trying to draw this out over a 10 year window, they're paying tax on that. So I think if we think of different phases and where you're drawing down the money to, I think the Roth wins there. But I love the mindset thing because that, that's how I, that's why I think about it. I just love knowing that this nest egg is mine no matter what. I get every penny out of that thing. I can rely on it.

I love it. And I want to add to this too. You alluded to it a little earlier that your kids want to inherit a Roth and it's the best thing to inherit to your kids. But we didn't explain why. I wanted just to add to that is that if I'm a child and my, I am a child, I have an incredible mom and dad. Just want to get that out there. If you were wondering, okay, I have a belly button.

I came into this world, I have

a belly button, you know, so, you know, okay, so if my mom, God rest her soul, she passed away two years ago. But if she left me a traditional IRA and I was, which I did inherit from my mom, she left us three kids a little bit of a traditional IRA that she had left, I have to, when I take that, it's called an inherited ira and when I take the money out, I pay tax on it. I pay tax on my mom's traditional IRA because she died and she never paid tax on it. IRS is like someone's paying tax on this. Who inherited it? Okay, you did. I'm going to get to 1099 R and pay tax on it. But if I inherit a Roth IRA from my mom, I don't pay tax at all. And that inherited ira, it's got a special little checkmark next to it because I can invest it for 10 more years however the hell I want. I can self direct it by crypto, by real estate, by cattle. I can go do any type of deal that's passive that I want or active, I guess with the cattle ranching or an operational business might have you bet another story. But anyway, the point is I can invest that for up to 10 years, make pay no tax on the growth in that, as long as I drain it by the 9th year, 364th day done, tax free. So an inherited Roth is like, and I don't have to wait till I'm 59 and a half. I get it inherited at age 30 and play with it for 10 years and pull all the money out by age 40 at any pace or rate I want. As long as I drain it within 10 years from when I inherited it. That's incredible. And I can do that with a Roth ira, but not traditional.

Boom.

Love it. But here's another major point you made in there. People are told they're going to be in a lower tax bracket when they retire. Is that what you want, people? Is that what you're working towards? It's not what I'm working towards. Just think about this like people that say, I'm ready to retire but I'm going to make less. What do they do? They keep working, they keep their business, they sell this buy that people don't want to. I'm going to live in a lifestyle of X dollars and then when I retire somehow mysteriously be okay living on less dollars. It doesn't work that way. You keep working your ass off and we kind of keep spending what we make. Generally, most people do that. And so to have the mindset that I'm working so that I can live on less, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't happen. And so it just drives me insane. This is where I'm going to make my little rant here is it. Advisors that can't get creative, they love this argument because they have nothing else better than, well, you could put money in your traditional IRA this year and get a write off because that's all they got. That's their only dumb idea. When I'm like, I got 10 other ideas better than that. Let's use the Roth. But if you say we're going to go Roth, they're like, well, they have no other strategies. And so they love to harp on the, well, you're going to be in a lower tax bracket and you know, you can, you know, technically it's this, that and another, and they get, you know, pigeonholed into that argument and they can't get out of it. I would challenge you that when these advisors are trying to sell you on that traditional is better concept, say, give me another idea, let's see how quickly they can come up with another one. Because I think the Roth IRA is going to give you the momentum, the energy and the excitement that you got this tax free ATM down the road and that write off right now might be good, but are you going to be that self disciplined with it? I don't think so. I'm not.

Yeah. And I think what. Let's just hit some more reasons here because Market Ask like makes a lot of other points here. It's unpredictable what the tax rate will be in 5, 10, 20 years from now or whenever we retire. And if taxes increase, it will have made sense to be contributing to Roth the whole time. But I don't think that is the reason you guys are on the Roth train. And it's true. I think it's more likely that tax rates will be higher in the future than they are today. But that's not why I like the Roth account. Here's another thing, it's why I like the Roth account. It gives you optionality. If I think of like our biggest investors, our most successful clients, and they have an investment in front of them that might take $300,000, but they know they can make 100 grand in six months, when they look at their where's they can invest that money from? Where do you think they're going to do that six months? They can get an incredible return. They're going to go do it from the Roth account because they want to build that. They don't want to, they don't want to drop that deal into a traditional ira, which is going to get taxed on the way out later. Nor do they want to do it with their taxable money. So they can be strategic with it. And I think when you have these different pots of money, your taxable money, that you know, just all your other wealth you're doing right, the money you're making, the equity in your home, your business, maybe you have a brokerage account or savings, other stuff that's taxable and you have your Roth account. It gives you so much flexibility in retirement to where you're drawing on that wealth and you don't have to worry about the taxes on the Roth side. So I think that it gives you this optionality by having the Roth account. If I just have a traditional account IRA and I have my regular taxable funds, I'm stuck in tax land no matter which one I pull. But if I got the Roth one, I got some other strategies and some options.

I freaking love it. And you gave me another idea here that I love to harp on. Okay, let's say you got 100 grand. Okay? Now just for easy math, I could put the 100 grand in a 401k IRA traditional combination or whatever. And I could get a write off for 100 grand today if I put it in a traditional account. And I know I'm going to pay tax down the road with whatever I create. Well, once you take the power of self directing, please check out our other podcast, check out our other podcast, the directed IRA podcast where we talk about consistently clients getting 15, 20, 25% returns or more on some big deals on occasion. Think about that. If I take that traditional account and I go out and five exit over or I may turn it into a million dollars, I turn it into a million dollars and I get a far better return than a Wall Street 8, 10% deal. I'm going to be paying tax on a million dollars, 900 grand to be exact to get that out where if I had a Roth account I'd never pay that tax on a mint. So I got a write off on 100 grand, but I'm going to pay tax on a million. I'd rather pay the tax on 100 grand and then never pay tax on that million. And so when you compare them apples to apples with the actual rate of return and your tax rate being constant, the higher your return, the more the Roth is attractive to me. Because if you're going to self direct, the Roth blows it out of the water.

Yeah, absolutely. Because the value of the deduction is so little. And if I compared to the investment returns and growth, I'd rather give up that little deduction on that small amount of contribution when over time that earnings and growth could be 10x that just from the compounding of this over time. Even if you're an average investor just in the S&P 500 fund. So that's why we like it. I know and I'm going to admit this. You go run a calculator on it and you really think and you go discipline with like well if I take the tax savings from the contribution and I invest that and I run it out and I average and I look at what how this is going to look in retirement with tax rates being the same. And I'm drawing it out, I know it's break even, I will concede that. Yet still for all these reasons, one

out of a thousand people do it.

Yeah, for all these reasons we've talked about. That's why we like the Roth train. And I'll say one other thing, that's another kind of hybrid approach that I like is having a little bit of everything. I actually don't think you have to go 100% Roth. I think for me, that should be the biggest account. I have a little bit of traditional dollars left, and I like that. Let's say I'm going to be in a lower tax bracket in retirement than I am during my working years. Or let's just say you have a low year, 70s, you know, you have a low year.

You're the random year.

Yeah. And I hit that. And that's not my plan, but let's say that that happens. And I'm 70 and I'm like, well, I want to take some money out and I've got 100 grand in a traditional account that year. Maybe I draw that out because I have no income that year from anywhere else. Well, I'm on a low tax bracket, but I'm not going to draw from the Roth. So by having a couple of buckets, it does give you the flexibility where you don't know what it's going to look like in your 70s or 80s. But I'm just telling you, the one that you can never go wrong with is the Roth. You will never lose because you did the Roth. You can lose if you do the traditional because your income is more in retirement. So that's another thing, probably. Way to think about it.

Yep, I got another one here.

Now, I was thought we were done on this.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's more, there's more. Because I here's. I was a little aggressive when I said you're maybe your advisor right now. This is the only, you know, trick they can pull out of their hat is, you know, it's April 14th and they call you up and go, well, let's put money in your ira. You know, that's it here. So. And I said, what else you got? And I call him out, well, let's call out Mark Kohler. What would I say? I would say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I want you to put that money in Roth. And in fact, I want you to convert some traditional money over to Roth. Mark, what are you crazy? You just told me not to take a write off and to convert some money into Roth. Yeah, we're going to chunk at it and get rid of all your traditional. What are you smoking?

You want me to send more money

to the IRS right now, but I'm going to offset it. I love offsetting strategies. This is a class I teach in our workshops. And all that is if I got a big gain, maybe from an exit, sell a business. I just sold a piece of real estate. I got a bonus at work. Whatever A lot of times you can't save tax on that transaction. But I can go create an offsetting transaction and make it tax neutral. So, oh, this may be the year to take a little bit of money and buy that short term rental property. Go do a little Airbnb, rip out some bonus depreciation. Maybe there's a piece of equipment, another piece of personal property I want to rent out. I want to rent out my RV that's been sitting next to the house doing nothing. So I can depreciate that all in one shot by putting it on outdoorsy. Maybe I want to go invest in some oil and gas, get an oil and gas write off. I want to invest in an opportunity zone or I want to get go over and create a write off somewhere else. An opportunity zone is deferral. I apologize that getting ahead of myself. But if I can create a write off somewhere else to offset my reason why I'm doing a Roth now you're even further ahead. Now, I'm not taking that hit to begin with. So let's get create. Let's put some kids on payroll. You weren't doing that before. Let's go create an accelerated write off in another area. Let's get creative. I love it. I love it.

Because that's how you can have your cake and eat it too, right? That's how we can have the Roth account. And also.

Is that the theory? Like, I want to look at my cake, but I want to eat it.

You've had to explain this one to me because I always thought that analogy was so dumb. Yeah, what good is cake if you can't eat it? So I don't know. You know, people want to look at it.

This is a wedding cake concept, you know.

Okay, that makes sense.

You know, I gotta go put it in the freezer. Did you ever eat your frozen wedding cake five years later? No, no, no, no, I did not eat it. Didn't even taste good the first time. You've got all that, like, crazy stuff in the frosting.

Pretty good. I was. I was actually pretty satisfied. Okay, there you go.

Yeah.

All right.

Well.

Well, that's the Roth versus traditional debate. We tend to be Roth guys. As was exposed here in the answer. There's good arguments again on the traditional side. We just think that there's more Roth winning arguments out there. When you think about paying tax on the seed versus the harvest, when you think about letting your kids inherit that Roth account versus a traditional account, you think about it's more likely tax rates are going to Be higher in the future than later. For many of you on the Main Street Business podcast, your Main street business owners trying to grow and build wealth find different streams of income. It's likely your income will not be less when you hit your 60s and 70s. It may actually be more. The list goes on and on to re, you know, create the whole thing.

But no, no, I love it. Hey, I want to get your thoughts on this too. Here's another. Another point that I want to make too is maybe after this podcast you guys are like, okay, fair enough. The Roth's better. I'm not going to chase that deduction before April 15th. Okay, now April 15th is your deadline for last year's contribution to your Roth as well. And so you're going to hear this podcast. And maybe which is, this is what I don't want to happen is you listen this podcast, you're like, yeah, screw it. I'm not going to do that last minute deduction into my traditional like I do every year. It's not worth it. These guys were right. The Roth's better. So when your accountant calls, you're like, no, I'm going to skip that this year and you do nothing. No, that's not what we're saying. I'm saying go still contribute before April 15, but into a Roth account. And if you have to tone down the amount you put into it because you're like, well, I got to pay a little more in taxes because I'm not doing the traditional thing this year, then fine, but instead of putting eight grand in your Roth, put five grand or six grand or something, but do something. This is the key to building wealth, is that you now put in that money for the Roth. Skip the traditional tell your accountant off if you want make a change, but then turn around and make your contribution for this year at the same time. And Matt, you are such an advocate for this.

Yeah, I mean this is kind of. I think some people get caught up by like the deadline. Like this is your homework assignment in high school. Like, we don't just turn this in on the deadline. Like, let's get it in early. There is value in turning this in early and getting your money in early because we are going to invest it. There's lots of studies out there. Fidelity did a study on what are the attributes of people that have million dollar IRA accounts and, and 401ks. What is the at one of the common attributes, they contribute as soon as possible When January of 2026 hits, they're making 2026 contributions. They're not doing 25 contributions. Those have been sitting in there, invested and gaining money for a year. When you think about investing over 20 years and you think about waiting a year, you've given up 20 years of compounding those dollars.

Wow.

And it really adds up at the end of the day. So I would just think when we're sitting here In February of 2026 right now, if you haven't contributed for 25, get on it. You haven't tied up for 15th on your IRA, but also like Mark said, get your 2026 contribution. And I know we get caught up in the tax strategy and the tax deadline and these Roth IRAs, traditional IRAs in Roth and traditional 401ks, they're tax advantaged accounts, but they are investment accounts. You win by letting those money, those dollars be invested, growing and compound over time.

Yeah. And if you is again I said this at the very beginning of the show, I have been the benefactor of so many of you, our listeners having conversations with you in one on ones or at an event or somewhere, calls into the show. And another common characteristic of our clients that do retirement account contributions is it's on autopilot. Yeah, it's on autopilot. Get one of Those apps, there's 50 of them out there that will just suck it right out of your account every week, every month, just a little bit. And then it's out of sight, out of mind. Now, yes, if you've got a 401k at work, that's going to come right out of your paycheck, blah, blah, blah. But these Roth accounts that are IRAs, you can do that on top of your 401k works. Everybody can have a Roth IRA on top of your 401k. Well, I make too much money, Mark. No, no, no, no. You can still do what's called the backdoor Roth. So throughout the year you're contributing to a traditional ira, not getting a write off because you make too much money. And then at the end of the year you turn it into a Roth tax free.

Yeah. And I will say if you are a high income earner, which means you would then have to do the backdoor Roth IRA, just do the 7500 bucks all at once in January. Like why are you messing around? You have a high enough income where you're forced to do that and that and, and converting each one of those separately would be a pain in the ass and you don't want to invest. So those traditional. So I agree for the regular roth Iron Traditional IRA if you want automate it, maybe it's 500 bucks a month or whatever, you know, 700. However that adds up to the 7500. Now, that's the 2026 number. But if you have the funds in the wherewithal, and this is most of the clients at directed Iraq, they're dropping 7,500 bucks in all at once as an annual contribution. And for those of you Backdoor Roth Ira, you're high income, you should be doing that.

Yeah. Please Google Backdoor Roth Ira. Matt Sorenson. Don't Google Backdoor Matt Sorenson. Just do Backdoor Roth Ira. I highly recommend that. I just want to forewar you. I've done that. It's, it was, it was scarring. I'm just going to say leave it at that.

But anyway, so hey, views or views, you know, whatever it takes to get some views.

I don't. Yeah, Matt. Reaching for those views, you know, but it's, it's, it's working. You know, you've been climbing. You got your congratulations, by the way. You got your YouTube silver play button.

Silver play button. Yeah. You know, the back door Roth area helped on that one. Let's just be clear. This is a joke. Okay. Don't be searching the dark web.

Yeah, that's got quite a presence on the.

Totally for just laughs, guys. Okay.

Oh my gosh, what a great show. I. This is a debate we hear every year with clients calling up, going, my accountant said this. And we have to really explore the pros and cons. So hopefully you can make a more educated decision this year. Thank you so much for listening. Please send this podcast around to your friends and family and hope you enjoyed it. And thank you so much. We'll see you at our next podcast. We're doing more this year, sometimes two a week, making sure we have more open forums. We got a new website out. Make sure you get over to mainstreetbusinesspodcast.com, submit questions. We've got a lot of resources there. We are freaking going next level and appreciate your viewership and your listenership. Is that those things? And thanks everybody. See you next week.