Writing a Book - A Good Business Move

I probably mistakenly did some stuff after. But I think the good thing about KDP is you can obviously put out another version. Obviously you just don't want it to the point where people are commenting on it or like it's so distracting. But I don't care how good of a writer you are, unless you're a professional edit editor and you go writing blind. Like, I've read this a thousand times and you just don't notice mistakes as much.

Foreign.

Welcome, everybody, to this week's episode of the Main Street Business podcast. Excited to be here with you on a really fun topic. Of course. I'm here with my amazing co host, Matt Sorenson. Welcome.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, fun topic. We've got two authors today. If you didn't. Not amongst our, you know, the many things Mark and I try to do, I can't say we do it well. We've written some books well.

We're going to have two more authors join us. So it's really a panel of four authors. And what's fun about this, we're talking about business books or nonfiction, whatever category you want to throw that in. I guess business books would. Or self help would be a subcategory of nonfiction.

Yeah.

We have a novelist, fiction writer with almost 100,000 words and a children's book authority.

Well, here's what we want to talk about. We want to talk about is it a good business move? And then we're going to talk about the book writing process and things you should know as any type of author we'll get into with our panelists. But like, what's the business reason? Is it a good business move to write the book? I mean, that's the question we're going to pose and get to today.

I was wanting to bring up one tax or legal tip. I just want to highlight this tip because it's fairly fair, it's fun, it's interesting, and I think it's got a really good story and it involves Matt Sorenson as well. So it's like a trifecta of goodness. And we love trifectas. We love trifectas.

We do.

We're all about that.

Yeah. Okay. So yesterday we were in a training meeting. We had 12 attorneys in there. We do that, we collaborate and we learn a lot from our team of attorneys.

But.

But we do a Tuesday training call where we all get on a zoom call and we all learn from each other. What. Anything new. But what was going on is we have sometimes clients call us up and some of our newer attorneys were Frustrated because they go, we had this client called. You know, this client called me up, and they. They had listened to your podcast. They'd read your books. They knew what they had. They were so frustrated that their prior attorney or CPA had. Had structured them inefficiently, and they really knew what they wanted. But I couldn't figure out how to get them there because they had this convoluted mess. And Matt and I were teaching on what you do in that situation. So Matt shared a parable analogy. What do you call it?

Yeah, I think it's an analogy.

Yeah. All right.

Yeah, we get this a lot. You know, these are people who may use another professional or they went to some corporate headquarters, BS place or some. You know, they hacked it on illegal zoom, and they did it wrong. They might have it all set up, and it's legal and compliant, but the asset protection plan stinks. The tax. It's not tax efficient. They're paying more than they should. And they come to us like, I need. I get. I need to change. I. I bought this, and I'm already operating this, but I really need. And my business is already in it. I'm already doing it.

Yeah.

But I. I know I need to get over here what you guys teach. And. And so that's the hard part. So I. And I've had to explain this to clients. It's like, well, what you're asking me to do is you already bought a car, but you really needed a truck, and you want me to turn your car into a truck. I can sell you trucks. Those are easy to make. We can, you know, throw the right press together. It's a truck. But if you want me to take your car and turn it into a truck, that's hard.

Yeah.

That's much more difficult to do, and it costs more, and it's more painful. And so.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so there's a moral of the story for some of you listeners that go, oh, that's me, and that's okay. We're not here to beat you up, but we ask for your patience as we try to make that transition, because a lot of times we'll do it in November, December, so you can start the new year off right. But they're like, I want to do it right now. Well, you're signing up for a lot of tax returns and headaches. And.

And we're. And we're working on an El Camino package. You know, we're working on the El Camino solution where you can have the car and truck you know, option. But I think, you know, just on the seriousness of that tip on the front end is, you know, if you do set up a legal or tax structure and you get driving that thing down the road and operating it, it is a little bit more difficult to unwind it and get to what you need to do. And that's why proper planning on the front end so much more important. Just get it done right. Get the proper foundation before you building the whole business around it. It'll make your life more efficient, easier, and you don't got to worry about the hassle down the road because you got the wrong. You saved a few bucks doing it your own or paying somebody that doesn't know what the heck they're doing, you know, at some headquarters.com or zoom.com somewhere.

Okay, so, Matt, business book. I've got a great tip on how. Why don't you. You talk about why you do the why. Why would you write a business book?

Yeah. Okay. Now, I have to say I. And I learned this from Mark. As many things, you know, I love you. And he's in my, you know, acknowledgments. The very first person that I thanked in the book because he really helped me in the process of, like, kind of just like, getting your crap together. And Mark was like, you need to write a book. And then he'd written his first already. And then I was like, I will. And then he wrote a second. And I was like, I better get my crap together. And he's like, I'm writing a third. I was like, I better get this first one done. So I did, but.

And then you stole the title from me. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah. Yes.

But

Mark's was always like, you. You. If you want to be the guy, you got to have a book. He's like. And then he's like. And you gotta have a conference. You gotta like. There's just like, certain things, like if you want to get out there and be known as an expert in whatever you do. And that's a lot of reasons people write a book. From a real estate book to a legal or tax book or business book or medical whatever, if you. If you want to be an authority in your space, you need to have a book. And I realized that, and I realized the value of Mark having a book and what he'd written. And so that's the first thing is why is for many of us out there, the book is supplementing other things we do. Like some of our guests, we're going to have on writing A novel that may be like hoping that you're just going to be a. One of the few novelists in the world that just gets to write books, just to write books, you know, that maybe turn into movies and all that and you just make a lot of money. But for many authors, it's still a very valuable thing to do to create a brand around yourself, some validity to you, and just to help kind of build your own Persona and make you like an authority in your field.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna lead off your last statement right there. That last sentence is some. You may say, well, I am an expert, I don't have to write a book to do it. And that's fair. Okay. But when you write a book, there's several things you accomplish. First of all, you put your money where your mouth is. Like, you literally print it. And if you really are giving good advice, it. You're, you're putting it out to the masses and the ethos and it's gonna come back as bull crap or legit. So if you really are an expert, you shouldn't be afraid to do it. And it's actually gonna kind of provide validity for what you've been saying. It's kind of like, yeah, I can stand behind it type thing. The other thing is it makes you better, man.

Yeah.

Writing a book was so hard in some ways because I was like, oh, I mean, I say this, but where did I really get that? And how do I explain it in a paragraph and oh, I better reference that or have a citation and all of a sudden it makes you a better expert because you just can't say it anymore. You got it, you got to stand behind it, you got to vet it and.

Yeah, yeah, for me, you know, I mean, my book's a little bit technical. You know, it's not just like self help of, you know, like start your day at 5am and eat a healthy breakfast, you know, nothing's wrong with that. Nothing's wrong with that. I mean, I read that stuff, I love it. But I'm just saying, like when I tell someone like, you know, you can't buy real estate in your IRA from yourself. I'm going to give you the law of why you can't do that. I don't, you know, and, and so the other thing that I said on the why was I wanted, like you said, Mark, to be more of an expert on that. I wanted to flesh out my thoughts more. And it took me years to write the book. But I also think like, if there's A void for what you want to say. Like, this is the other thing with the book, particularly like a business book or if you're in the self help or technical category, novel is so creative you could have a cool story. And we're going to talk about that with one of our guests. But like, but I think like a business book, like, you have to have something to say. Like, what are you adding to the conversation? You can't just write a crappy book. You're going to waste your time. Like you, if you're going to put your name and your reputation behind you and you've written one book or you know, to start out, that better be a good book, you better have something to say. And, and I, you know, sometimes that means you take more time. And I took plenty of time. Took me a few years to write it. But like, I had something to say in my space. There was not a good book in my space. Everything out there that anyone else had tried to do was superficial. Was like, you can do this, but we don't really know how. Talk to your lawyer, here's some companies you can use. And it was like, that's about what you got. And so there was a huge void for me at least that no one had gone out and written the book. And honestly, it made me like hustle to get it done faster because I'm like, I don't want someone else to go claim the space of the book so they get to have something to say, avoid to feel. And if you do that properly, the book's going to be successful.

Yeah, ditto to all that. And before we bring on our guests, I want to share one other point that I think takes away a lot of you that are just freaking out that it takes so much time. It's too stressful. I can barely do what I'm doing now and keep my head above water. This is crazy.

La la.

All those feelings, all those thoughts that may not be true. Let me give you the solution and you're going to love it. If you're in the business world and you are trying to brand yourself as an expert in your genre, whatever that is, and a book may be on the horizon, well, what are you already doing? You ought to be darn well writing blogs. A blog article. You better be doing a blog article every week or every month because if you're an expert, you're already writing. Now. A book seems like such a this way, far off thing that'll never come to fruition. It's too hard, it's too Difficult. I'll never get there. I don't have the time. But I can write a blog article every week, and that's a passive activity. You're kind of safe there. You're safe. I'm not going to fail at a book. I'm not going to stress there, but I can write a blog article every week. Well, people, your blog articles are the chapters of your book. The blogger girls are the subchapters of your book. Once you've written 40 blog articles, you got 80% of your book finished. Now just organize the darn thing and get it in a format. And now all of a sudden, you're editing a book. You're not writing a book. Did I really whisper? Did I whisper?

Yes.

Good.

Good for me. And you know what? Yeah, writing a book. What does he say? Writing it where he's like, dang it, good. Guess what? That's what he says. Yeah. Guess what it's good for the economy, benefits, everyone hurts.

Nobody works for the book. I mean that.

Yeah.

I mean, Joe Biden was love that.

So I'll say one other thing on the. If I. If I may, that was one other important thing I wanted to say on that.

On the writing?

Yeah, on the writing.

It could be podcasts, it could be blog articles, it could be a newsletter. You're producing content. It's just organizing it now. That's really what a book is. If you're really that type of expert.

Yeah. Okay, here's the other thing I was going to say. And that's what I did. That's the advice Mark gave me, you know, and it was.

It's a.

It was great advice. I started a blog because if you want, again, you want to be an authority, make a website, start getting a blog out, even if you are getting like a hundred visitors a month, who cares? Just like you're getting the content, there's a process to write the book. And eventually, if it's successful, so will the site. Here's one thing I did want to be careful about. There are places that will, like. There are these places like, we'll help you write your book. We'll just. And I'm. I don't love those things I have to say, because they kind of ghost write it for you. And it's like. And I know a lot of people have done those, like doctors and real estate investors, and people get caught into that. You pay them 10 grand or something, and you kind of talk to them for a few hours, and they write a book for you and throw your name on it, basically. And they have a process obviously where you're checking on stuff, but I don't love that. No one's going to love that book. They're not. I mean that. And you've really got to put in the time to write it, to have your name on it. It's gotta be your voice and what you think, your ideas in order for it to be successful and to be authentic to you. So just be careful of those. The last thing I said. And we'll talk about this in our little group conversation as we bring in these other special guests here in a moment. But I want to just point this out because I use Kindle or KDP Publishing, it used to be called CreateSpace, which is a division of Amazon to self publish my book. Mark had a, a publisher. We'll talk into some of the differences there. But one thing to know, if you used Amazon, I'll just give you an idea on my book. I'm just going to tell you how the numbers work on making money on it, okay? I'll just be 100% transparent. I mean, I don't care. Basically, I sell my book for 20 bucks. Amazon charges about 5 bucks to make it. Now they do it for you. They just, they make it, they ship it. Everything on the paperback book, I get 60% royalty on it. Okay, so I make about nine bucks at the end of the day if you take 20 bucks. So I'm just telling you, and this is everybody gets this. I don't got a special deal, of course, you know. So now on the Kindle version, since there's no book being made, there's no cost to that. My Kindle is 10 and I get 70% royalty on that. So I'm basically making about seven bucks on when it, when a Kindle's purchased. So I just want to get those numbers out there. Lots a lot of people ask those questions. What do you actually make on it? Remember the paperback you got a cost of it that just comes off the top and then you got a royalty spread at 60% on paperback and then 70% on Kindle. So that's helpful. We'll ask our guests too when they come on what they're selling their book for.

Getting to I. Yeah, I love that explanation, Matt. And some of you, well, Mark, what's your, why aren't you share your numbers? The hard part is, is I went with a publisher for my last three books and well, and then my workbook, the eight Steps Workbook, I went through KDP Kindle Direct Publishing and So when you work with a publisher, it's a very different dynamic financially, and you're really relying on them to give you a bigger name and hopefully a bigger audience. And it's a gamble because your royalty is going to be a lot less a lot of times if you got a track record. Luckily I did. I got an advance and an advances. When someone sees that in the movies, oh, I got an advance to write a book. It really is an advance. They're not giving you money to write a book. And then you get royalties. The royalties you receive go against the advance you got in the front.

Yeah. It's gonna take you a while to make money on the sales.

Yeah. So after you get paid off the

advance part of the advance payment. That was the advance part. I can't get it.

Yeah, it's a pain. So anyway, it's a little different calculation, but I'm excited to have these guests join us. So let's jump to our Brady Bunch screen for those that are gonna hopefully get us on YouTube and let's get these folks introduced here on the show.

All right. Well, it's my pleasure, of course, to introduce Jerem Bergeson. He is a senior attorney at the law firm KQS Lawyers, a mighty fine firm if I do say so myself. And in addition to writing some blog articles, Jerem's also on, you know, some tax and legal topics. Jerem's also written a book himself.

Kyle Mortensen, also here on the. On the Brady Bunch. For those that are on YouTube, you're seeing another face here. For those that are just listening to the podcast, there's another person in the room. This is Kyle Mortensen, and he's taken upon himself to write a novel, a fiction novel, which we're going to hear more about, which is. It is based on a true story. He'll explain more about that. I'm probably already butchering the introduction. So, Kyle, we'll come back to you right after we get Jerum's introduction and we'll hear about your kind of day job and how this side gig is going to hopefully play out for you. Because I think Kyle's going to be the rich one when this is all done because his is going to be a made for TV movie and we're all left in the dust. So, J.K. rowling, we couldn't get her, but we got Kyle. So we'll see how that goes.

Okay.

All right. So, Jerem, tell us about your book.

Yeah, mine definitely wouldn't be a movie. It's not long Enough. So what I wrote, what I've written is a children's book. It's called why Do Witches Wear Black? It explains why witches wear black. And it's beautifully illustrated. I had a great partner do that. And so it's a short children's book, about 350 words. Obviously, it's a Halloween book. So I'm trying to get it out right now before the holiday. And that's sort of it in a nutshell. And so, yeah, I'm doing that on the side of my day job here at KKOS Lawyers, where my bosses are sort of slave drivers. So I don't have a ton of time. I gotta be careful.

Yeah, yeah, this is true. We'll talk to them. Well, why did you write the book? Why a book on Halloween? Why? For kids?

Yeah, Well, I mean, I have three kids, 12, 6 and 4. And I started writing the book a couple years ago. And actually the genesis of it was that I had a black grill cover on my grill in my backyard, and I forgot to put it on the grill one night. And it was November and it was cold, but the sun was shining on that black grill cover. And I went to go pick it up to put it on the grill. I was like, that is hot compared to how cold it is out here. And it was just after Halloween, and I thought maybe that's why witches wear black, to keep them warm. So that's sort of gives away a little bit of the story there. But that was it. I started writing a little poem, and it took me a long time, but that's what I did.

Okay, now hold up before we. Because we want people to buy the book, we don't want to give it away, you know, give away the reveal at the end. But can you read us maybe the first two pages? Like, just give us a flavor for it. So we're all excited to kind of.

Okay, so it starts out and it asks the question. It says, have you ever wondered why witches always wear black? Is it to disappear in the night sky as they fly together in packs? Or maybe to match the fur on their beloved cats backs? Does it remind them of licorice and olives, their favorite snacks? Or maybe of the deep dark cauldrons where they meet and relax? So it just kind of goes through that sort of rhyming pattern and eventually gets to why that is the case.

Do your kids like it?

Yeah, my kids. Well, maybe they're just being nice, but they seem to like it. I've got nieces and nephews that have read it. And they enjoy it as well. So it's gotten good reviews from my relatives, so at least I've got that going for me.

Yeah, they're usually the worst critics, but 350 words term, that's like two tweets. Yeah, that's the secret sauce right there.

Yeah, I think we're gonna have a choice.

Was much. I have to say that that was some good, you know, pros grind bars there for the rappers, you know, some good bars, but pros, there you go. Much better than chapter three of the self directed IRA handbook.

Not. Not as informative. Not nearly as informative.

Yeah, yeah. We try not to read sections of our books on the podcast because there's been car accidents from people falling asleep, so we want to make sure we avoid that. Okay, now, Jaron, we're going to come back to you because I want to talk about, you know, some of your tips for those that may want to write a book. I know that you've got a series planned which you may not want to share, which is fine. I know that you're working on some trademarks and URLs and all that, which is very, very smart. And we want to talk about your experience and what your financial expectations are and a few other things. But let's get it on the table. Kyle, tell introduce yourself too about your work and why you would have been drawn and tell us about your book. Just give us a little bit about this.

All right.

My name is Kyle Mortensen. I wrote a book on feudal Japan. It takes place in 1581 in the warring States. It's the biggest civil war of the country. Lasted about 150 years. It's called Mists of Iga and it's a historical fiction and it's a good story. You'll learn something. And I don't write for work. I do plan review for construction companies for a third party.

Do you know how, how do you know? Do you know, do you have any background or history of Japan? Like how, how did you have that knowledge base and pick that period?

And I started with zero, which is why this took like eight years to, to come to fruition. The reason it started is, you know, just hanging out with your buddies one day and then you're looking at movies and books and you're like, why isn't anyone written anything about this? People have written about it, but mainly what they do is they make it fantasy based, magical based, or they insert a white guy into it. No offense to like Tom Cruise or Shogun James Clavell. Right. We've all seen those books but it's like it's an unrealistic approach. Right. So it's like, yeah, is there an actual fictional story of what kind of happened in that era? And so that's what really started it is, is I was just like it was a desire to read something about it and then finding that it wasn't there. And one thing just leads to another, an idea. And also the idea came during the 08 recession. So there's not no motivation of a pet project like a recession. Right. So

okay, okay. How many words do you know?

It's just shy of 100,000. So it's a normal size novel as I researched. I didn't want to go over that. It's kind of a. No, no for first time writers. You can lose your audience. But it's a decent, you know, it's about 367 pages. It's a decent novel.

So yeah, I've had a chance to read it and I've loved it. I don't know how to pronounce a lot of the terms the Japanese language in it and I don't want to scare anyone away. There's names of places and names of characters, but other than that it's a really easy read and it's, it's really vivid. I was very impressed. I mean I could see the series much like Harry Potter or a Twilight series. It's exciting. And so congrats. Now both of your books are out on Amazon, right guys? People go there and buy them. All right, so let's get the titles out there again. So since we were just with you, Kyle, can you spell it or say that again so everybody could search for it? Well, I've been to show link. There's a link in the show notes too.

Myths of iga. And that's spelled iga.

Myths of iga. Okay. And Jerem, you're why witches wear black.

Yeah, why? Why do witches wear black? And witches is spelled W I T C H E S. Okay. All right.

Never know, never know. Yeah, yeah.

Which witch is it? I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, which witch?

Right. Let's talk money first and then I know Matt, you've got a list of some awesome questions because we kind of talked about this before. But Jaron, go back to you tell us money. What do you think?

Well, yeah, that's a huge part of this, especially when you're self published is you get to sort of set that on Amazon. So I set the price around $11, $10.99. And of that if it sells directly on Amazon, I don't mind telling folks I get around $3 out of the 1099 for each prop or each book that is sold.

Now, did you do a hardcover or a soft cover?

I did a soft cover. It's much cheaper to do it that way. I'm not sure if Kindle Direct Publishing, which is where I published with Amazon, even has a hardcover option at first at least maybe not for children's books that are illustrated. So it's, it's a soft cover.

I think one of the things that a lot of people don't realize that about KDP is Kindle Direct Publishing is that you don't have to carry a warehouse. You don't have to pre buy stock. You may say, well, that royalty sucks. Three bucks. Yeah, but you just post it done. KDP prints it, ships it, the whole nine yards, which is.

Right.

That's huge. My dad asked me that question. He said, how many of these did you have to order to sell them? And I said, none. Yeah, they're, they're directly sold by Amazon. They do everything.

Except I didn't get one.

I mean, yeah, I thought, yeah, they just print. That's Kindle Direct Publishing. Just so people know kdp. Back when I did it, it was called Create Space, which is apparently no longer around. But so what? Just I think it's important to know on the money piece and Kyle, we're curious on yours too. I like to ask the same question, but with, with Amazon is they have a cost to make the book. So you just have. That's like, they're like, that's four bucks to do your book. Like, because like mine's about like five bucks. Mine's like four ninety something on my book that's like to print it, to bind it and then they're going to ship it, right? Then let's say my book's 20. There's $15 there. Now they do a royalty share with you, which we can get into. But Kyle, tell us what you're on. On the money question, like what, what was your expectation on it? And are like, what are you doing? Are you doing Kindle? What are you doing?

Yeah, I have it on Kindle and it's on paperback format. On the Kindle I think I make about four, four bucks and on the paperback I make about five bucks a copy. I also am using their advertising submissions. So one thing for aspiring writers is if you're an unknown, don't plan on making a profit in the first couple Months, because you just want to get it out there, spend money on advertising. And it has turned a corner for me. It's been about seven months, but it's starting to turn a profit even with paying with advertising. But I think the first, my first expectation was I want readers.

Yeah.

How's that expectation gone for you?

It's actually going pretty well. It's like whenever I use an analogy, I think of it as like a large boulder on a very slowly inclined hill. It's gonna just barely move at the beginning. But as time goes on, word of mouth gets around, you start to see sales go up. Assuming your book is good.

Yeah, yeah.

And reviews start to come in and. But I mean, people are lazy readers in this digital age. Right. It takes a little time.

Let's talk about the series now. One thing that I ran into, and this maybe at this point I shared this thought. I did my first book, self publishing and was out there hawking it at every conference I could and on my website and through my network of being a lawyer and an accountant and what we were doing 10, 15 years ago. And I always dreamed, okay, I want to have a publisher. And I think that would be better. And it's been a mixed bag. Matt and I have debated this a lot because Matt, after seeing my experience, chose to go self publishing. And we are still, maybe the jury's out on which method is better. But I was lucky enough to get with Entrepreneur Press and go and pitch my idea for the second book. And that process was really interesting because they really didn't want to see a manuscript. They want to see what's called a one page or a one sheet. And they want to know what's the title, what bullet points, what are people going to take away from this, what are you trying to accomplish? And what was interesting to me, they really wanted to see what I was going to bring to the table, marketing wise. I expected them to say, oh yeah, we'll do it, bye, you know, and then they're gonna go out and put it in airports, which has not happened yet. And so I, I was like really excited to have a publisher because I thought they were gonna do all this heavy lifting for me. But what I found out is it is a partnership. I do get a larger platform to market within and they are out there trying to huck my books and sell them. And that's helpful. My royalty is much less. I'm still on Kindle and all the other and Amazon and all the spaces. But it's been a different experience. And so I wanted to ask both of you, we'll go back to you Jerem. Did you pursue a publisher or did you ever. Did that ever come to mind?

I did. I sent it in because I'm, I don't have an agent and so most publishers won't accept non agented manuscripts. I did to a few that accept those. I waited a little while and didn't hear anything back. And I got to the point where I thought, you know what, I don't want to go through a publisher. I want to sort of have all of the editorial control. I sort of think I know how to best market this book and hopefully get a higher percentage of the royalties. So I pretty quickly got to the point where I felt like I wanted to publish it myself instead of going through a publisher.

What was your experience, Kyle?

Yeah, I sent out a lot of the term is query letters to agents and some publishers. I had one person who was very, very interested. He just, the timing was wrong and I was at the point where I didn't want to wait anymore. A lot of it is, is you have to realize these agents are typically trying to write books themselves and get in the business and they're looking for that quick, easy, like this is a guaranteed what's the hot new thing right now that'll sell easy. And if you're an unknown and you don't have a website or you don't have a business or a lot of this day and age social media followers, that's going to be hard.

Now Matt, would you share yours now? Because I know you.

Yeah.

You debated this in a big way and I know a lot of people think about it.

Yeah. I think you got to think about like let's say you have the option to do a publisher first. There's a variety of publishers, there's some that are super name brand that are going to, that can get your book in like Costco, not just like a Barnes and Noble with a million books but like you know, like going to get you like in like the grocery store, literally like everywhere, the airport like Mark said. But, but then you got a lot of lower tier publishers that frankly take a lot of newer authors but they're in business to make money off of you. I mean with you too. But you know they, and so now if they think your book's amazing and they have the right resources, they can really push it. For me though, when I did my book I was like how do, how do I buy books? I go to Amazon and if you look at the stats now of where people buy books, they buy them on Amazon and the amount of copies I've sold of my book, I've sold over 30,000 copies of my book. I know I'm way over numbers of what Barnes and Noble wants to put you in Barnes and Noble. But here's one thing you got to know. If you want to be in Barnes and Noble, you've got to have a publisher. It is very hard to have a self published book, particularly through Amazon, which Barnes and Noble fricking hates to go to get in there. And I've tried and I've seen and I've put in minimal effort into it. I need, in fact this is like a reminder to do it. If you want to be in the bookstores and like Barnes and Noble being one of the big ones that's still around, you've. You've got a uphill battle to get in. And for me it's just kind of like a cool thing. I'd love to walk in the bookstore and see my own book there. But other than that I don't think it's going to push the drive the needle for me. And so because of that I decided I'm just going to buy, I'm just going to go through Amazon now. Barnes and Noble buys from Amazon so people can buy my book at barnes and noble.com they can buy at all these other places and Amazon fulfills over to those other third party sites where people buy books. So I don't know if that's helpful for people. That was kind of the thought process for me and I knew I was going to go out and market it myself. I was already known in my space. I was wanting to go out and speak. I was wanting the book to be what I was known by. And I didn't think people were going to necessarily wander into Barnes and Noble and be like of all the books in there, I'm going to pull this self directed IRA handbook off the shelf. Like it's kind of. More they're searching out for this for my book.

One thought too because I want to transition to audiobook. And so let me share a tip for those of you that may go through a publisher because you always make mistakes and I made some mistakes and I also made some smart moves and didn't even realize it. I've done three books now with Entrepreneur Press and the first book was with a different publishing team because they've had turnover in the last 10 years and the first team and I'm sorry folks, yes, I'm a little older but 10 years ago, audiobooks were not on everybody's radar as much as they are now. And so when I went to go sign my first book deal, they took the rights to Kindle and the print. This contract was silent on audio, no pun intended. So they didn't even bring it up in the contract. And at the time I didn't even notice it either. I didn't care. Well, about two to three years into it, well, maybe two years, I was like, people would be asking, hey, do you have this on audiobook? I'm like, no. And I go over to KDP and there and you can go through Audible and there's a relationship and you go through API and all these other websites to get you to the right spot and they're like, do you want to publish your audiobook? I'm like, yeah. And so I was able and I had to show my contract because I had a publisher. So I had to submit the contract because they didn't want to get in trouble for trying to make money on my audiobook and stepping on the publisher's toes. And so I was green lighted. And what I found out was I was making more money on the audiobook than I was the print and the Kindle. Even from self publishing. Audiobook is a real sweet profit margin. And when someone signs up with Audible to buy your book, you get a kick on that because they're like, hey, you brought someone to Audible just because of your book. We're going to give you a piece of the original audio Audible subscription. So I was making great money off the audiobook and I was able to get in my closet, you get all my clothes around me and read my book standing up. And I went through all these steps and, and people liked it. That was in my voice. And it was really simple really. And I got it out there. But on my second and third book, they saw what was they, they injected the little audiobook provision, but then they never did anything with it. Now this is full disclosure with my publisher. We've been through the rounds. So they got the contract in there for the second one, but then they never said they never moved on it. And I'm like, guys, we're missing sales here. And they're like, no one would return my effort to get it going. So I went and freaking did it anyway. They weren't happy about that per se, but we were on a third book deal by then and they're like, yo, yo, yo, you can't just go do this without us. Look at the contract. And I Was like, damn. All right, so you guys are going to care about it now, so let's get it done. Then I had to audition to be my own voice in the read my own book and I lost. I couldn't believe it. I was a little frustrated. I know I lost to James Earl Jones. And you know, Luke, you are my, you know, I'm your father. But anyway, no, he didn't do my book. But anyway, so the audiobook I found to be very profitable. It was kind of a trickier process for me because there was a publisher involved. I'm not going to put Matt on the spot yet unless he wants to volunteer his laziness. But Jerem, what do you plan? And even Kyle, I know you struggle with the audiobook a little bit from a unique perspective. But first, Jerem, plans for audiobook. Let's get that on the table.

Certainly something that I want to do. My book is obviously only 350 words long and the illustrations are really important. So I think Kindle and ebook is important. Audio, you know, on a children's book that short, I, I think there's a market.

Do they. I don't even know they do it because I know you have to have a minimum amount of time for the audiobook for them to publish. At least on Audible you might be able to do another mediums. But I think Audible has, I think it's like couple hours minimum in order to do a book. But yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right with the illustrations and a children's book coming.

Right.

But that's good to talk about because that makes sense. A lot of people are, oh yeah, audiobook may not make sense for. But the cool thing about Jerem is he can kick out a series a lot faster than a hundred thousand words, which is cool.

Right, Right. I've, I've already written most of a second book if this goes well and I feel like I want to publish another one. Yeah. I'm getting into series for different holidays and related sort of topics and so. Yes.

Okay, let's come back to the series. Kyle, tell me about. You've told me a little bit about your audio experience. Tell us your challenges there.

Yeah, mine has the challenge of obviously being set in Japan. It has Japan words. So you don't want that voice actor that's got that good old World War II tone that can't pronounce any of your words right. So I have a little bit more of a unique audio experience. I do plan on doing it. My dream would have an ensemble cast which they do through acx, which is the kind of the co company that works with Audible. You can give them a couple chapters, they'll read it out their. Their contracts. You can have them have a share in your profits, or you have to pay them all to do. So I'm saving up to definitely have all the rights to my own Audible and pay a company to do it. But it's. It's gonna. It's a little more. That's something to consider when you're writing. How easy is it to make into an audiobook?

Well, I wanna audition. Can I audition?

Yeah.

I don't know.

I got James Earl Jones lined up already, so he might be.

Yeah. Based on your earlier comment, you don't have any old white guys in your storyline, probably that would.

No, I do not.

Okay. All right, Matt, tell us your challenge with the audiobook. I know you and I have talked a lot about it. It's good for people.

Yeah. So I. I started the. Here's. You know, my book's pretty technical, you know.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah, mine's not. Never. Go ahead.

I got 100 legal citations in it, but I got charts and graphs and all this stuff. And so I started it, and I got four. About four or five chapters in.

Okay.

I was doing this. I was, you know, burning weekends like I had to do to write it in the first place. But we should. We need to talk about that. Like, but when it got to, like, I was about. I was like, okay, let's start editing this. So I was giving it to, you know, someone to edit it, and I started listening to myself just because I wanted to kind of, you know, I was like. And I was listening to it for, like, the audio quality and everything, but now I listen to it as, like, a listener. And I was like, this kind of sucks. Like, I didn't like my own audiobook. I love my book. I really do. Like, I. Believe me, I love my book. I freaking read my own book. It's like I have to reference it in my own job all the time. It's, like, on my desk, so. And I have clients that love it, but the audio just wasn't working.

Yeah.

So what I did was.

I got one here, too. Here's. Here's Matt's book at my desk.

Yeah. Hold it.

Let me open it. Oh, look it. That's a nice font.

So what I thought, though, here was my thing. I'm like, I got a bell. I just. I wasn't happy with it myself because I was basically just reading the whole thing. And I was trying to have some energy. It wasn't about that. It was just like, it just didn't work. So what I decided to do and which I've not executed on is I'm going to do an abridged version that is more conversational going through each chapter because I can talk about this stuff all day long. This stuff that's in my book, you know, it's what I'm doing every day. And so, so chapter one is going to be the same thing on audio but I'm going to basically do a more conversational like I would do in a presentation that I think is more engaging and it be a much more effective audiobook that I would be more. Because that I'd be more interested in sharing. So that's. But then I just haven't done that. It's been a little bit of trial and error. But I think let's talk about the like just writing the book and then for, if you guys don't mind, just for one last question. Jerem. And at least that I got. And Kyle, it's like how did you guys set aside the time to get it done? I mean Kyle, you said you, the idea came in 2008. So like, like how did you get started and how did you get done? I think those are the two things. Like you got to get started and how'd you get done?

At first I was super lazy about it, right? It was just writing down notes because you know, it was just this pipe dream like oh, this would make an awesome movie. And then it just started. All of a sudden you have this layout to the story, right? So I like to make at least a layout. Where am I started? Where am I going, you know, on. And I even had like bullet points for each chapter as I went. And obviously it evolved immensely from that. As you write, you get ideas, you keep going. But my thing was I knew I was a first time writer. I believed in my project and I knew if I was going to spend this much time, I had to do it perfect. I had to do it right. I, I was not going to publish early just because I wanted to get it done. And that's one thing. It's not a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. As far as the novel goes.

Yeah, I love it. And you would. I remember because we've known each other for years. You, you sacrificed a lot of late nights, weekends. Was your wife supportive? Was it hard on your family or

not or you know, she was super nervous about it. Because I mean, it sounds ridiculous, right? Here I am, I'm just like, I'm gonna write a novel about medieval Japan, ninjas and samurai. It sounds ridiculous, right? Like this. I remember telling friends at the beginning and they're just like, yeah, okay, right. Just like, good for you.

Right?

You Kyle. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's. And as she, she read some chapters and then she realized it was like an actual real thing. But yeah, it, I, I, I could say I can't tell you how many hours have gone into us. So if there's anything, you better believe that it's going to be good. Because if you don't believe in it in yourself, I would say don't bother. Because if you don't believe in it, why would any, no reader is going to see the passion in it. They're just going to be like, I mean, everyone's read that book where you're just like, oh, this was definitely a free check for this writer. You gotta, you gotta believe in it and you gotta believe that it's good.

Yeah. And you got to enjoy it. I think, like, you gotta like, enjoy the writing process. Like I like to write even, even on, you know, a technical book or a business type book, you know, not a novel that's more creative even. I still like the analytical part of the writing and the, you know, trying to answer people's questions and educational part of my book at least. I think you have to love like the process of writing and like look forward to it. Like you, because you're gonna sacrifice a lot getting it done.

I, and I'm for Those watching on YouTube, I'm scrolling through your webpage on Amazon on this, Kyle. And while Jeremy, we get Jerem's response, I'd like you to read a little bit, maybe just a few sentences from your book as well. The part I remember that I was just Sometimes in a book there's that point where you're like, that was freaking awesome. Like, I, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, you're like, that book was worth it. And the part that I really remember was when the four guys, there's four characters that are primarily together during this journey during the Civil war. And they enter one of the villages and they're describing the village and what it looks like. And I was like, is this Kyle? I was like, holy crap, where did this come from? Because, you know, Kyle doesn't talk as smart as this book sounded. And so you could find it. I mean that honestly, I was like, I was really impressed people read my book. And go, you don't talk that smart. This is. Did you really write your book? So I know the feeling of that accusation. But anyway, in the middle of the night, when you're really cramming, good stuff comes out. But when you're out talking on the street, never happens now. So be prepared to share a little something now, Jerem, it took you two years, I think, why don't you talk about illustrating for a little bit from your angle? Cause maybe it wasn't the words and the content, but it was the illustration problem.

Well, and from the words standpoint, right, it's only 350 words long. So does it take that long to get 350 words on the page? It doesn't. But when it's only 350 words, you start. And I think children's books, writers especially, the shorter the book is, then the better you want it to be, the more you're agonizing over every single word. Is the rhythm right? Are the rhymes correct? Are they true rhymes? Are they near? Can I do better than that? Is the image that's in my head getting out into the words that I'm trying to put onto the page? So it did. I wrote my book on my phone, right? I was just with notes on my phone. And my wife would be like, I would do it on weekends, I would do it in evenings. And I'd be on my phone, she's like, what are you doing on your phone? And it was like three or four months before I told her, I think I'm writing a children's book. And so then I started sharing it with her and with my kids and with other people. And, you know, they gave me ideas on how to improve little things. But that was. My part of the writing process was just agonizing over, should I say yellow or bright yellow or canary yellow or, you know, just. Just little things like that. So, so that was the process there. And then really, for the last four, five or six months, my manuscript has been done and I've been working with an illustrator who happens to be the wife of one of my. My cousins. But she does this professionally and. And I've had to pay her for her work. But for a children's book, the illustrations that. Where she has sort of taken the story that I didn't think about taking it has been amazing. And so the illustrator is really, really, really important for a children's book that's this short. I mean, the story has to be good too, but the illustrator just takes it to a different level and I feel like she's done an excellent job.

Well, I think it was in Matt's chapter five of his book. I turned the page and there's this graph. It was amazing. It brought me to tears. I. I don't know who illustrated that graph map, but I was like, I was yours truly. I was just truly.

But you know, there's. There's a couple other pieces to this we got to point out too there because there's other parties. Like, I had to hire a graphic designer to do the COVID Right. Like, and you can, you can do your own cover. But like, I had to hire a graphic designer to do the COVID And, and Amazon, if you're using kdp, you know, they have some cool things that help with that, but you still need a cool design for your cover. Also did either. I used an editor on my book. I hired an editor, which you can also do through Amazon. KDP, they have like either masters or PhDs in like writing or English type stuff. So do you guys use a. And I shop mine out for editing too, to like 30 people. I knew other attorneys, CPAs Jerem and Mark had to read it, you know, and I got those comments back then. What I did is I then. I then took it to a professional editor. What did you guys do in the editing? Did you do anything in the editing process? Did you do it yourself?

Yeah, yeah. Editing. Writing is fun. Editing is not. That's what I've learned.

Yeah.

The most. I. I did a similar process. Yeah. I would say if you got. Once you're in with a novel, once you've gone through your third draft, send it to someone you trust, have them r. Have them tear it to pieces, give criticism. This didn't make sense. All the things maybe non with the non technical parts, obviously, because they're not going to have that background. But just what does an average reader think about this, man?

Still, I think even for a technical or a business book or whatever, it's like if they don't. If they're not, it doesn't make sense to them. I'm still going to change it. I want to. I still. You still, I think, need that feedback. Even though you're like, well, I'm the expert on this. Well, you're not communicating it very well.

Yeah. And then, then you went with the technical editor too. Ultimately, of course, Kyle.

Yes. And then I probably mistakenly did some stuff after. But I think the good thing about KDP is you can obviously put out another version and even professionally edited books. I mean, everyone's per Picked up a first edition and found a typo. Obviously you just don't want it to the point where people are commenting on it or like, it's so distracting. But yeah, professional edit. I don't care how good of a writer you are, unless you're a professional edit editor and you go writing blind. Like, I've read this a thousand times and you just don't notice mistakes as much.

Definitely now when I had it, the professional editor, you know, they use track changes for it all, which was great because you got to pick what to accept and whatnot. I'm not kidding. I think there was over like 200 commas added. I was like, geez, I guess I'm a little shy on commas.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And I was just on that note of editing, I. What I found in working with my publisher was, they're like, when you finish a chapter, get it to us. We want to start editing right away. We don't want to wait till you're finished and then edit it all at once because we can keep our editor busy. And they had deadlines for me. See, that's the nice thing about a publisher, too. I probably. You three guys are like, no one's tracking me down every other week and fighting with me or sending me emails going, where the hell you know is everything? So when my publisher gave me an advance and said, we need three chapters by this date, five more by this date, Da, da, da. They're already feeding it to the editors. Then it's coming back. And it was disjunctive for me because I'm trying to write chapter nine, and I'm going back and looking at the notes on chapter three and da da, da. And it would come back just red, just bleeding red with changes. And I'm like, I thought it sounded pretty good. What the freak? You know, and so it really. You have to go in with really thick skin. I would say that too.

Yeah.

Got to be willing to take some advice from even your focus groups or an editor. Kyle, you're going to say something.

Yeah, I push back on that a little. Like, I would never send a. Maybe a fictional novel on the first edit. Because I remember going through the first chap draft and then changing a third of the book after the second or third draft. So it's just like, maybe just be careful. They may want it. But at the same time, it's like, are you just going to be repeating the work again? And they're just working for the sake of work.

That's true fiction.

That's a story plus a novel's more. Yeah, fiction. It's more creative process. So you don't want them in your head either. Like, I. I think you're right. Like, you got to finish that sucker. But, like, I. I think, on the other hand, what Mark said makes sense, too, for that type of book. I think the editing process is probably very different. It's a good point.

Okay, now read us a few. Few pros, Kyle. Just, Just. Just a few pros here. Just to give us a little sense of your book, the vividness of it.

Oh, you. You want to.