Mushrooms and Kundalini Yoga Built a Million-Dollar Brand with Tanya Papanikalov

And I also have, so I'm doing my master's, my Master of Science in Mind-Body Medicine, but I have my undergrad, my Bachelor of Science is in Nutrition and Nutraceutical Sciences. And nutraceuticals is like the field of natural health products. And that's also apparently so rare. I talked to some people and they're like, "You have a degree in nutraceuticals? Like nobody in CPG, nobody in this space actually has that." And I remember when I graduated university, I was like, there was like, you know, job offering at Nestlé, and I was like, what am I going to do with nutraceuticals? Like, what have I done? So it's really cool to see that all come kind of full circle. But the mind-body medicine piece is really a fascinating, relatively new area of study in science. We're essentially, uh, finding the scientific correlates between how the mind directs the body. And of course, the spirit is like— I would prefer to have it called mind-body-spirit medicine, but it's kind of an aspect of that as well.

Welcome to the Startup CEO Show. I'm your host, Mark MacLeod. In this episode, I sit down with Tanya Papenikolov, founder of Rainbow. Rainbow is a leading brand for functional mushrooms. You may have heard that mushrooms have many, many health benefits, and Tanya walks us through this. Talk about founder problem fit. Uh, Tanya was a healer, She studied mind-body medicine. She's a Kundalini yoga teacher. She has a deep, deep lived knowledge of the benefits that mushrooms bring. So in this episode, we walk you through that. If you were ever curious about functional mushrooms and how they could enhance your life, she walks us through that. Obviously, we walk through the rainbow journey, building a direct-to-consumer business, getting into big channels like Whole Foods, building a company with her husband. Tanya's obviously a deeply spiritual person. And so we talk about that. We talk about the practices that all CEOs can benefit from whether they're spiritual or not. We talk about how to balance ambition, drive, and material success with spirituality. And both of us are Kundalini yoga teachers. So of course we, uh, had a little bit of propaganda at the end about the benefits of Kundalini. And I can tell you in all seriousness that the trajectory of my career and my life was 100% tied to me going deeper in the Kundalini yoga practice. I really, really enjoyed this episode. I wish it was longer.. It's probably a different one than what you're used to. I really hope you enjoy it. Welcome to the Startup CEO Show. It's a true pleasure to have you here. How are you doing today?

Thank you so much, Mark. It is a pleasure to chat with you. Um, and I am doing super today. How are you? Amazing.

I'm really good. Oh, by the way, we have a co-host today.

Oh my goodness. This is Baby.

This is Baby.

And she's— is it a new baby?

No, no, this, she's 4 years old. This is it. And she'll be a little stage side, cling on. So yeah, when my wife's not around, she's on my lap. So she's a co-host. She probably won't ask a lot of questions, but she may nod her head from time to time.

She's a real, a real lap dog.

A real lap dog.

A real, that's so, wow. I, that's so sweet. You know, this morning I woke up and, or maybe it was in my meditation and I was like, start looking for a dog. Like, let's start looking for a dog. Now is the— I think it's a good time.

I love humans, but I really love—

I don't even know my love. I only know my love for dogs through other, like, owners, and it's a lot. So I actually can't imagine how deep it will go.

Yeah. I mean, the worst thing about pets is there's a 90% chance you will bury them. But they bring you so much love and create so much love that it's, it's worth the pain.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

So you and I first met through our mutual friend, Matt Gray, at his mastermind, and he had the foresight to put us sijara de lunch because you're a Kundalini yoga teacher and I was in process of becoming a Kundalini yoga teacher. And again, in the no coincidences department, A, that wasn't a coincidence, obviously. And we're recording this on Guru Purnima, so kind of a great day to be honoring our Gurus and teachers.

And it's a full moon.

Full moon.

I don't even know if I knew that when I booked, but of course, no coincidences.

No coincidences. So, of course, we're going to have to talk a little bit about Kundalini, and I promise for folks listening who have never heard or have heard and think it's weird, I can 100% actually correlate the progress of my career to the depth of my Kundalini practice and just the insight, intuition, energy, gratitude that it unlocked for me. So, yeah.

100%. Me too. Me too.

But we're here mostly to talk Hariprasad. So first of all, for folks who don't know, could you tell us just a little bit about yourself and Rainbow and what Rainbow is?

Yeah. So, um, I'm so excited to chat with you today. But, um, so my name is Tania. I am, I guess, a lot of things, you know. I find this question difficult to really define oneself, but I guess it's helpful to speak to why I do the things I do. But, um, I'm a holistic nutritionist, the founder and CEO of Rainbow, which is a company I birthed, um, like, well, it's, yeah, I started it really 8 years ago and launched it 6. So in this timeframe, it's actually funny, the reason I was a couple minutes late to our podcast was because my— I had a call with an astrologer because we're trying to find a date for our product launch, and it's Mercury. Yeah, and it's like, it's like, I was like, all the planets are going retrograde, like, what are we going to do? Anyways, I digress a bit, but, um, so I've been pouring so much of my time, energy, years into building my business Rainbow., and that's been a beautiful wild journey. I also teach Kundalini, um, host retreats, and I'd say that's kind of the gist of it at the moment. I'm doing my master's as well, which is another pretty big undertaking. And, you know, I guess I'm just really— I'm very, very passionate about learning and utilizing natural healing and technologies and sharing that with people. And really, it was through my own healing journey that this whole path even came to fruition. And as I started to unlock certain keys, it's just kind of in my nature to share that and really like, you know, sing that from the rooftops because there's been such profound results. And, um, you know, there's so many, so many other kind of reasons, I suppose, to things. But ultimately, I, I feel very committed to really elevating humanity and helping us achieve, be in our best state, feel our best. And I think as I've moved through life, I've experienced firsthand the way that through having a sensitive system, the way that the food didn't work for me, the corporate system didn't work for me, the way of just like accepting stress didn't work for me. The medical system was not something that I would just be a bystander of. I really needed to be an active participant in that. And so as I've, you know, since I've been you know, 16 years old I've really been on this journey. So, um, yeah, it's been, been a beautiful path.

Hmm. That's amazing. And so you began as a healer. You still are a healer, but you've birthed this company along the way. Exactly. I had the CEO of Jane App on the podcast last year. Cool. And it was the same thing. She was starting like a a physio clinic and needed some software to run it. And now she has a software company worth $1 billion, which is— wow, pretty wild. Wow.

That is so wild.

Yeah.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

You know, I did, I, I really had to, I really, it was really tough. The first couple years of identity, like, was really difficult for me because I was like, but I'm like, is this part of me? I can no longer express this part of me, um, that feels very innate because I was learning to— I was learning business, and I think there was a little bit of kind of, uh, I didn't have any like necessary— like I didn't have any business skills at that, at that point other than all of the amazing entrepreneurial traits that it takes, um, and the rest you can really just learn. But, um, yeah, it was interesting. There's been like a lot of identity shifts that have been required, and I think the of like knowing that I can be more than one and like shift between, um, different identities.

Yeah. I mean, something I tell my CEOs all the time, right? It's like, lean into your superpowers, be like your true authentic self. Don't put on what you think this stereotypical image of a CEO is. Don't put on this fake identity. Right. And the CEOs that go all the way are the ones that do that. And the example I bring up all the time is Tobi from Shopify, right? We have this stereotype of a CEO, a tech CEO, right? So unfortunately male, 'cause it's male dominated, so it's not exclusive, but as a stereotype, you know, tall, broad-shouldered, charismatic rainmaker. Tobi's not, he's male, but he's not these things. He's painfully introverted. Uh, but he has deep superpowers in technology and product, and he's leaned into that. And then he's built a team around him to do the other stuff, which is why his right-hand Harley is the one who does like the quarterly earnings CNBC stuff. And so I love that and tell my CEOs all the time, like just the thing that doesn't feel like work where you're just in flow, like That should be your role. You should design the company starting with the leadership team, but design the company around leveraging that and having you be in that state.

Oh, I love to hear that so much because it's been, it's been such an interesting journey and process and like so much kind of, you know, I don't know if other people listening or any of your other CEOs can resonate, but like, um, such a challenging journey for me to really be like, try to, try to separate that, that, that aspect of like, what are my, what, where is my zone of genius with like, who do I feel like I need to be? And honestly, like, that has been just such a hard thing. Like the guilt, the like, oh my gosh, I'm not these things. I don't look like that version of a CEO. Like, whoa, whoa, that person has those skills. Like, do I need to have all those? I don't, but I have this. Like, so it's really like I always say it's, it is like, I mean, life is spiritual, but the, the whole journey to having a company brings up so much in any role. Like no matter what, if you're, if you're the founder or working at a company, like there's just, there's structures and there's, it's such an internal journey of like constantly being aware of like where things are showing up.

I think building a company, especially like a high growth company, which by the way, is never a straight line up and to the right, is actually just a personal development exercise. Like, it's the single growth, biggest growth exercise you could go through.

100%. Yeah.

Now my first exposure to Rainbow as a product was when we were sitting in a round table in Mexico City and I was a little bit jet lagged and you just pulled out a tincture and 20 minutes later I felt amazing. So it definitely works. Are all of your products mushroom-based or are there other raw ingredients as well?

No, all of our products are, are mushroom-based. And yeah, that, I mean, Rainbow, Rainbow through and through is a mushroom company. That is the whole inspiration and the journey and the vision that I had was all about mushrooms. And so even our future products, we have two products, um, coming out. So we have 2 products launching, and those are both gonna be mushroom-based. But yes, all product SKUs are filled with mushrooms. And we have in our new products, we have some adaptogens coming in too. So some herbals are coming in.

Now, I didn't know this about you until I was kind of putting together some topics, but you're the first person I've ever encountered who has a degree in mind-body medicine.

Yes.

So please tell us about that. I find this fascinating.

And I also have, so I'm doing my master's my Master of Science in Mind-Body Medicine, but I have my undergrad. My Bachelor of Science is in Nutrition and Nutraceutical Sciences. And nutraceuticals is like the field that— of natural health products. And that's also apparently so rare. I talked to some people and they're like, you have a degree in nutraceuticals? Like, nobody in CPG, nobody in, in this space actually has that. Um, and I remember when I graduated university, I was like, there was like, you know, job offering at Nestlé, and I was like, what am I gonna do with nutraceuticals? Like, what have I done? Um, so it's really cool to see that all come, come kind of full circle. Um, but the mind-body medicine piece is really a fascinating, relatively new area of study in science where, you know, we're essentially finding the scientific correlates between how the mind directs the body. And of course, the spirit is like, I I prefer to have it called mind-body-spirit medicine, but it's kind of an aspect of that as well. And so we study all sorts of things. I mean, the majority, the majority of the, you know, scientifically proven practices are what we know, like yoga and meditation and hypnotherapy and all different sorts of psychological study. There's a lot of transpersonal study. I'm really interested in the consciousness aspect of of it. I am potentially, depending on, you know, time levels and family and things of that nature, there's a consciousness PhD that I'm interested in pursuing next.

And that is non-trivial.

Yeah, I mean, totally. But I think it's really the mushrooms that have also— partially Kundalini, partially my experience as a practitioner in holistic nutrition and working one-on-one with people and really understanding like when I'm interacting with somebody and when I'm working with somebody, there's just so much happening from a subconscious and from their mind. And so that was where I was like, I'm not just working with a body here. There is a whole person that needs to be on board from a mental perspective to really heal. And I really love those subtle realms and subtle aspects. And so the mind is just this space of infinite curiosity for me because I really think it's the unlock for our potential and so many aspects of our beliefs and the subconscious and just really like the collective and ideas and creativity. And so it kind of spans all of these areas, the nervous system, all these areas that I'm extremely passionate about. And really, that mushrooms have also unlocked for me, um, in this amazing way, which was part of why I started Rainbow was really the benefits I started to receive from high-dosing reishi mushroom.

I'm curious, just as a small tangent, what you've studied here with mind-body medicine, I assume that's using kind of an allopathic Western medicine approach, but does it reinforce Ayurvedic principles? Is it kind of saying the same thing at the end of the day?

I mean, there is— it's not— yeah, there it is taking, I guess, a Western allopathic approach to, um, the scientific rigor that some of these tests need to be, or studies and clinical trials need to go through. Um, but there is a surprising amount of data from places like India, Japan, China, and studies and kind of from, from those traditional systems as well. That was really surprising to see. And so a lot of, a lot of it is the scientific validation of, or understanding the neural correlates of something like meditation or something like, um, whatever it might be, creativity or, um, energy medicine. So a lot, like a surprising amount of studies in, in their background research will pay homage to the cultures where this is coming from. And there's a surprise— I mean, I haven't really gotten into TCM specifically, like that deep into acupuncture or anything like that, but I would imagine like the body of evidence for something like that too is quite, quite large. But, um, the way mind-body medicine is getting incorporated into, I guess, the West is largely through functional approaches and, um, more yeah, holistic care. But there are various like practitioners, functional med practitioners, um, integrative health clinics, and like the broader field of integrative medicine where a client or, yeah, a patient will go to a clinic, and at that clinic there's, you know, all like all of your doctors, and you have really more of a support team available. And, um, so yes. Yeah.

Okay. So there's many layers to the onion.

There is. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let's talk about mushrooms, you know, so I have, being a total layperson, I have these benign mushrooms that I cook with and these magical mushrooms that I keep, but there's something in the middle that are mushrooms that have these properties. And so maybe, I don't know, give us a little Mushroom 101 for folks who know absolutely nothing about this.

Okay. Amazing. So yes, I mean, And you hit it spot on. There's culinary mushrooms, which have amazing nutrition value and are so great. I think there's a study that just came out from China showing that consuming shiitake 3 times a week reduces cancer levels. We can link the study and give the exact percentage, but like there's— Amazing. Yeah, and another study that just came out about consuming the fiber from mushrooms actually helps to break down forever chemicals and microplastics in the body because there are mushrooms in the world that actually break down plastics. And so tons of benefits from simply just eating the mushrooms from a— so those are our culinary mushrooms. There's another class of the medicinal mushrooms, which is what we sell at Rainbow. And those are also— some of them are culinary medicinals like shiitake and lion's mane, and then others are— would not be— you'd not be able to eat them and include things like shiitake, reishi, and chaga, cordyceps. There's tons of agarikon, royal sun, all sorts of beautiful names and wild kind of species of mushrooms. And those are the class of mushrooms that have incredible benefits to the body and to the immune system at large. But then every mushroom has its own kind of superpower and area within the body that it is really supporting. What's amazing is that like, I mean, yeah, humans are more closely related to mushrooms than we are to plants. And so with— yep, within our body, within— when we consume a mushroom, we have receptors in our intestines for these mushrooms and for the beta-glucans. And so with the medicinals— well, actually, I'll back up. With all mushrooms, the reason we need to cook the mushrooms is because all of the benefits are stored behind I guess the cell wall, which is this chitin cell wall that needs to be broken down in order to access the nutrients. And that's what cooking will break that down. And so I do recommend always cooking your mushrooms. And then for the extracts, for any of the medicinals, we have a process of basically decocting or extracting the mushrooms in water and alcohol to break down those layers, access all the amazing health-promoting benefits, and then either create that into a tincture, a powder, or an extract of powder. Um, yeah, I guess those two. And I mean, yeah, we can go into each specific mushroom, but they have truly amazing qualities. And whenever I'm giving somebody a little bit of a 101, I always like to go back to where they came from because there's incredible, you know, Western scientific knowledge that's coming out about these mushrooms, particular of, of particular of particular interest is lion's mane because of its neuroprotective properties. And so there's pharmaceutical companies that are studying it for dementia and Alzheimer's and various— it's such an amazing mushroom. And it's one of these small molecules that has the ability to pass the blood-brain barrier, which some pharmaceuticals can't even do that because the body is so brilliant and it won't let certain things access the brain. And so there's very few natural ingredients that can actually pass the blood-brain barrier. And so Lion's Mane is this kind of amazing and really deserves the hype it's getting in terms of how supportive it is to brain health, memory, focus, concentration for the elderly. I like, I encourage everybody to get their parents on it and yeah, just amazing studies showing up that it can like reverse the effects of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and prevent against neurodegenerative conditions.

Placing an order right after this podcast. Yeah. Unfortunately, my mother has dementia, so.

I'm sorry, yeah, it's so common. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, there's just the main, I guess, 5 mushrooms are lion's mane that I just mentioned, reishi, which is this mushroom mushroom of spiritual potency. This is why I love, like, using some of the language from Asian cultures to describe this, which is really the homeplace of mushroom medicine and traditional medicine. And there are festivals and statues that are, like, revering mushrooms in China, and, like, all sorts of, you know, beautiful things that happen there. And also just, like, vocabulary and language that we don't have in the West around you know, like what that really means, like to have any herb or mushroom increase the spirit of, of an individual or like have a protective quality to the mind. And so Reishi does that through its nervous system balance and through helping to kind of calm the effects of, of stress and of like cortisol. And so it does that by kind of the, the HPA axis, which is this like axis that like kind of starts in the brain. The upper brain center is similar to what we do in Kundalini yoga, which is really trying to like support the glandular system. And so the upper brain, the pituitary, hypothalamus, um, they are basically starting to control— they have this feedback loop with the adrenals. And so it's a beautiful way that you can actually start to like balance the whole body. So I'm always like, every entrepreneur, every— like, I just, I think everybody on this planet in this time needs reishi. It's extremely safe. It's a known adaptogen and just, yeah, my favorite mushroom that kind of started this whole thing. And then there's chaga. I won't give, you know, as long of descriptions, but chaga is an amazing antioxidant. Cordyceps is an awesome energizing mushroom. And then turkey tail is another just, yeah, incredible mushroom for oxidative stress and other cancers and things like that.

That's amazing. So I will say I knew none of this. Yes. Good to your answering, which tells me that perhaps the market at large is ignorant of the benefits. Is that true? And if so, how do you overcome it?

I think we're starting to scratch the surface. It seems that in 2019 was, or yeah, 2020 really started this like mushroom rena— fungal renaissance. And that was like through Paul Stamets's work and and Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, and really just this, like, all of these mushroom companies coming out and, you know, these things. And I always, like, I've— we launched before that, and, like, I always think there's something in the zeitgeist that is, like, moving culture and minds and all these things forward. But yeah, I think there's been a huge, huge push and success within the past 5 years to really make mushrooms more mainstream. But I don't think, like, you know, there's such a depth to them that I think we're still really, um, you know, are we at like mass penetration? I don't know yet. But I think the solution to that is really what we've been trying to do, which is just educate and really champion this intelligent network, which, which is like, I think that is really part of what struck me was like having these feelings that when I would go into nature before I knew any of this stuff, that there was like a sentience and some organizing principle of a forest and some level of like, wow, I feel really good here. And without even knowing that like I'm walking past plants that are— do like just myriad of healing benefits just from taking like a quick walk down past a couple bushes. And so I think when I started to really understand this and learn herbal medicine and recognize that like there's literally an organism that is beneath my feet that can sense my presence and that is like communicating, helping the trees to communicate and helping predators, other plants let somebody know that there's somebody coming. It just makes you, it's like being on a mushroom trip. You just actually realize that like, It is actually all connected and I am just one piece of this, you know, Charlotte's Web of, uh, of just life on Earth.

So fascinating. I love it. I want to keep going on Rainbow the company for a couple of, maybe a couple, yeah, a couple more minutes because the question I really want to ask is more spiritual. So let's park that there. So today you sell primarily direct-to-consumer online, but I understand you recently got into Whole Foods.

Mm-hmm.

Is, and so how has that been? Pros and cons of kind of those big channel relationships? We'd love to learn about that.

Yeah, so honestly, I don't think there are any cons, like truly. I mean, there, the con, like the cons that I could think of are like just being prepared from an inventory perspective, managing cash flow. Things like that. But we, so yeah, we, I mean, we grew pretty well. We grew organically for the first few years and we just like went, we expanded to maybe like over 200 stores, independent stores across Canada and the US. And now I think we're over 400 and we're, and that's largely through like independent chains. And yeah, so last year we got into Whole Foods and we started working with Purity, a distribution company in Canada, and they've been really helping to open doors for us. And I mean, yeah, Whole Foods is, it's such an amazing channel for us. Yeah, there's like, we haven't, we have yet to really get into the mass US market in terms of like the Sprouts or Whole Foods chains there. And we're hoping to do that, but it's also just like making sure we're ready to support that especially. And we'll probably start in smaller markets like, you know, SoCal or just specific states or specific sides of the country. Um, but I'd say our, the biggest considerations are just like, and the biggest worries for me were, um, what is this going to mean to cash flow and how do we plan for that? And, um, yeah, and just like staying in stock.

Is there a big power imbalance when you're negotiating with, with folks like that?

I mean, yes, there is, there's definitely like anytime you bring distributors into conversations or sales brokers, like there's really big cuts. And I mean, then you can also get into like the free fill situation too, where you have to, like, there's a lot of really big chains that will have hundreds of chains and require the first order to have a free fill. So that's like anywhere from however much you can negotiate, but like, you know, there's listing fees, there's, uh, there's, you have to spend 6 free products to every store. Um, so there's a pretty big upfront investment when you're thinking about getting into like some, some bigger chains. Um, and some of that's negotiable and some of it's just not. Um, so we have taken a pretty intentional and slow approach to, um, at least our like B2B expansion.

Right.

Yeah. Which is necessary because like there's it is hard to scale in every sales channel at the same time.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, generally speaking, right? If you try and do a whole bunch of things, you're gonna be an inch thick and a mile wide, which is not a recipe for going fast.

Yeah. Yeah.

Focus tends to be faster.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's fascinating. Now you run your company with Simon, who's your husband. That's, that could be a podcast in and of itself. And I know you did one, which I listened to., and, and loved it. But yeah, just tell us about that experience.

Okay. Um, well, we're new to it. I mean, okay, so when I think about, when I think about, um, Simon's an entrepreneur and he's got such an amazingly opposite skillset to mine, um, in the sense that he's an engineer and he was in fintech and has raised a ton of money for his company. Um, and he's been through it. He has, he knows the language to speak in terms of like, you know, when, when you're in those kind of boardrooms and settings. So he's helped, um, with capital raising and with all sorts of conversations in rooms where, you know, I was like, what the fuck? Like, you know, just like trying to be like, wow, okay, I need a lot. I've got to learn a lot of things. Um, but so he So when I think about like if I ever had a co-founder, like he's just like the person, like when you have a business, like for 7 years, every single conversation, every challenge, he's been by my side. And so in some ways I've always said like if I had a co-founder, it would be Simon because he's just seen it all. And it's, and it's so amazing to have the level of like radical candor and let somebody see you in your wild, crazy state before you develop the polished response. Like, you know, to like really let somebody see that side of you, um, is a blessing. Because I think being a solo founder, if I didn't have that, would be kind of lonely. Um, and, and, you know, like, so, and he's a lot more— he's very grounded and practical, which I am most of the time. But, you know, it's, it's also like such a journey to not have emotions in your business. Um, but anyway, so about last year he started to come in in a bit of a bigger way. He stepped away from his company that he was building for many years, and so we've been, yeah, figuring out what his role is and, um, learning through a lot of things, figuring out boundaries with, like, just in general, you know, like—

I was going to ask about boundaries, right? Do be like, okay, now we're not—

I mean, like, just last— like, yeah, yeah, just last night we were like, you know, we had to really process the whole thing because we were just working over dinner. Like, we were like, we had something to do and we were working over dinner. And, and so we were like, we just got into this whole kind of like argument. Um, then we like hugged and, you know, made up and we were like, okay, great. Like, this is a learning for us that we we're not going to book like a session for ourselves. Like, of course, if we need to, like, you're going to work whenever you need to. But it wasn't like an emergency last night. And it was just like, like, we, we need to book our time in the day because if we keep sacrificing any of our, like, couple time or intimate time or whatever it is, like, that's just going to erode the sacredness of this, of this. And now that we are working together, we really need to work harder to maintain that, that those times together. So we're like so many, so many learnings, so many like amazing benefits, but definitely like introducing a new set of challenges that we're working through.

This is not a question I get to ask many CEOs, so I'm glad I can ask you. So if Rainbow is your company, you're in charge, and so there's a certain male energy that you're going to bring to that role. And I'm wondering how you manage polarities because a lot of time where you want Simon to bring that in.

Honestly, just sometimes more people. I want to encourage more people to make decisions within the company. I have tried, maybe, you know, haven't done as good of a job as I could have, but it's a funny thing where it's like, I also am a bit of a, like, I like the control, um, and I like the—

I'm—

I have specifics around things. And so it's like, it's a really interesting thing. Delegation has been very hard for me. It's getting easier now because it's just like, it's, yeah, more of a requirement. But, um, when it comes to certain areas of the business, like where we have been in the past, I guess, like month has been like really, really starting a new chapter of Rainbow and setting really, really clear scorecards and expectations and like realignment of like, here's your lane, here's my lane, here's this lane. And like really just getting radically clear about where we like, because we're just, you know, spread thin in some areas and all that good stuff. But I'm trying, I'm actively trying right now, I guess, to answer the question, to give him areas where I want him to just like make make decisions and not come to me. And we're just trying to have really open communication. So I guess the answer is that it's not always super clear-cut and it's nuanced. And I like control and I'm also excited to pass certain things off and be clearer about what that looks like.

The key here is explicit communication, right? Not like, yeah, shoving stuff under the rug, not having expectations in your head that haven't been communicated. It was like a dialogue.

Totally. And I really tried to practice creating a pause, a moment of space between stimulus and response, and like get in that space, ask myself like, Am I the best person to make this decision? Can I delegate this? And even if I can do it really fast right now, can I still delegate it and like empower somebody else or encourage them or kind of— that has been super helpful because I think when you're trying to move somewhat faster, it's kind of like you just realize like, oh, I can get this done so quickly, so I'm just going to do it. And so there's, yeah, kind of a moment of thoughtfulness, or if I'm feeling frustrated, just being like, really getting clear about like, okay, is there, am I getting frustrated because this doesn't belong to me? Or like, what is the real reason here?

Oh, that you mentioned Simon was involved in fundraising. I wasn't sure whether you'd raise money. Have you raised mainly angel money so far? Have you raised it?

Yeah. Angel money. One, one VC actually. Um, and the rest angels.

I'm curious, has there been any tension between the objectives of investors? They might be mission-aligned and investing for reasons beyond money, but generally speaking, if I invest in an illiquid startup, it's because I want a return that compensates me for my risk. So I'm just curious, has there been any tension where they're pushing you to think bigger, cut corners, do things that you might not kind of want to do?

Honestly, no, not, not right now. We have like, I think it's largely because I've been so selective in the process of wanting the right mission-aligned partners. And they're also very, very hands-off. And if they're coming to us, they're like, how can we help? Um, and so, you know, and it's not to say that we might not go that route at a next, at the next stage, um, and have that pressure and we're open to that. But at this stage, honestly, it has been Um, yeah, I can't say I like— there's— there haven't been uncomfortable conversations. We've been in a good state as a business too, um, in terms of like, you know, not always growing as fast as we can. Sometimes it's like, you know, 700% growth and other times it's a lot slower. So it's interesting now to have been at it for 6 years and really, um, see like there have been different cycles and stages and, um, and you know, we're excited to enter the new one with this new product that's coming out or that might be already out when this launches.

Are you able— so you are accessing kind of an ingredient that ex— this is a totally ignorant question by the way, right? I have no idea how you formulate products, but you're accessing kind of a raw material that exists out in nature. So how do you create unique differentiation versus other mushroom-based companies?

So I guess when I first launched the business, our, our first product that I formulated was 11:11, and that was really just a ton of research into these 11 mushrooms and wanting to combine mushrooms together into a formula. There's no other combination of those exact 11 mushrooms on the market, and I was just doing a lot of experimentation. If there was, I would have just bought that and taken that., but there, there really just wasn't. And so from that perspective, it was, there was just less products at that moment in time. And at this point, I mean, I think I'm one of those people to like, I, I like to create something based on a desire, based on a lack in the market, but I also don't overly create something because I'm like, oh, there's just this gap here. There's gotta be something bigger and motivating factor behind it. Um, And so I think it's like a bit of a little bit of both. And I might even evolve that strategy in the coming years as, as there's just like, I don't know, there's just different brand, a different level of the brand that we're at now versus when we initially started. And we have a base of customers that we can ask and create with as well, which is awesome. But yeah, I mean, it's really like a process of understanding to some extent what is on the market, if we can create something better, um, if there's a gap, if it's a taste aspect that's like there's just nothing that actually tastes good, which is why I made our, our latest products, um, because, because like genuinely I wouldn't consume anything and I've been trying to create this product for like 8 years. The idea initially came in 2016 and I was just playing around in my kitchen and then it's now been like a 5-year journey of, of, of launching it, but, um, It is a combination of factors, but I try to like get into a state of clarity where I can really kind of like, I mean, I think, I just think it's fun to create from a more cosmic perspective of like, you know, that's most, most of my businesses have come through in a meditation or in like a quiet space and tons of ideas don't actually have any follow through or they aren't things that actually happen. But I like to access a little bit of both. Like there's like intuition and also grounded data. And I think bringing those two together is a beautiful place to kind of create from. I love that.

You know, that's a great segue maybe into our next topic. You know, when I, I tell my CEOs all the time, right? Like your brain wasn't built to do, I don't know, 8 or 10 hours of Zoom calls in a row and just go from thing to thing to thing to thing. And when you look back over the course of a year, there's a handful of really big decisions that move the needle and you want the freshest brain and you really want to tap into your intuition, which is far more powerful than your, your rational mind to make those. And that requires space. Now I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but maybe you could share with folks kind of what your practice looks like and how your practice has just made you a better entrepreneur, better CEO, how it shows up.

I guess first and foremost, practice is always a work in progress because I also let my practice really slide for like the first half of the year. Well, I wouldn't say that entirely, but I tried something other than Kundalini for a few months. And I was really unstructured about it. And, um, and I just dropped a lot of other practices and I noticed impacts on my mental health. And so I guess like first and foremost, I, I couldn't agree with that more. Um, and the reason I wanna say that is just because like it's, yeah, it's always an iterative evolving process, but I have certain things that I know for sure I really need to, to do. First thing in the morning to kind of like set the, like, just like building the terrain and having healthy soil for the rest of the day. And so right now it is, um, I just got back from, from Europe recently. And so the time zone switch has been really supportive for this, but I'm waking up between 5:30 and 6, going to bed between, you know, 9 and 10. And, um, and I love that. I love that so much because like for me, the, the most magic is the morning and other people that might be the night. And it's just like about knowing what that is for you.

My old person schedule, when you're as old as me, you'll just get up at that time no matter what.

I can't wait. It's still, it's still a challenge. Like I, I have been talking about wanting to do this for so long and it's currently happening and I'm grateful for that, but it's like no phone. And I was like every, every day for like the first 6 months of this year, I was checking my phone first thing in the morning, despite all of the things I knew better. I just, I know better and I was doing it. So that habit's currently gone and I'm just like, like stretching, doing my practice, Kundalini yoga. I have my Sat Kriya. I'm on 40 days of Sat Kriya, which I love to do before meetings as well. And then I have my morning pages. And today in my morning pages was the day that I had this download of like, 'All planets are in retrograde, when is the best time to launch this product?' Like, 'Oh my gosh, I need to connect with that guy who does this for companies.' So there's, you know—

Out of curiosity, was that Vedic astrology or regular astrology?

That's a really good question, actually. I have to check with him. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll ask him.

Sorry, I interrupted.

I'm not sure. But anyways, yeah, so I guess there's this sacredness of the mornings, which is what I really try to to emphasize for myself. And sometimes I'll go on a walk or I'll get some movement because sometimes it's like 7:00 AM and I'm like, "Okay, maybe I can just do a little bit of movement right now, like walking, because I know I'm going to be sitting and yeah, be sitting in front of a computer for the next few hours." But I'd say that that time is really important. And then nights, I am still working through. I have not historically had very good boundaries with work. There's been like many, many long days, and I totally get that that's all kind of par for the course, and there's so much passion. But I also did spend a couple years burned out and needed to like really put some better boundaries in to take care of myself. But yeah, I mean, there's— it's just, it is— it truly feels like a non-negotiable at this point. And like, it's like just generative for yourself and just part of like the process of what I need to think about like the creative output and then the creative process. And for me, the creative process is like, requires that spaciousness to like get myself into that place.

Sometimes I ask CEOs, uh, where are they breathing? And they have no clue. Um, are you aware of your breath throughout the course of the day? Do you find it rises up? It starts off in the belly, but by the time that evening, so long, it's up in the chest.

Oh yeah. For sure. Yeah. I have to really, really be mindful of that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So important.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And then, and posture. I'm guilty of that. Sometimes I make sure to sit suching, but I realize—

Me too. I, I need to get a, I really need to get like a proper desk chair, but we moved recently and you know, But yeah, posture is huge. Posture is huge. Whenever I'm— if I'm stressed out, I will just manifest it in my neck and shoulders. And like, it's— yeah, I can't stress that enough. And also just the movement, like yoga and like having agility of the spine is such medicine and like preventative medicine.

Yep. Yeah. My teacher always says you're as young or as old as your spine.

Yep. That's so true.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

I'm curious to what extent your practice has, uh, I don't know, infiltrated the company. Like, do you, yeah. Are, are there employees who now are, are doing these practices as well? Do you have any rituals that show up inside the company? Mm.

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, The first few years, I would teach on full moons and new moons. And honestly, we're not in that habit at the moment, but they have— some of them have practiced for their first, like, Kundalini for their first times with me. And we will occasionally do like Friday, medi and chill. We'll do, we do like, we would do our HUDs. Are like, you know, abundance meditations for 5 minutes or something like that. So it has been, it has definitely infiltrated the country, the company. And, um, yeah, we practice together sometimes and I would like to do that more.

That's really cool. When I was running my investment bank, we, uh, I brought in the person who's running our San Francisco office. Our team was in Toronto and we went to this place across the street from our office that was called Mind Gym. It's no longer around. But it was like a, it was like Othership, but strictly for meditating. It was like a really cool, well-designed space, uh, where they kind of have these meditation experiences. And cool. I think it freaked my team out, but yeah, it was the same. I was just saying the same thing at the time, right? Like you're a mental athlete. No, you think about the context. Somebody has been building their company for years and now they want to sell it. You got to fully show up. You got to be fully present. You got to tap into all of your power and you need We, we gotta work on this mind muscle, so we're going, we're meditating.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that they stuck with it. Yeah, I mean, Simon, I don't think he practiced Kundalini with me until maybe like 3 years into our relationship, mostly just because I was never like, you have to try this. He eventually— I was doing my training in 2021, and, um, I was like, hey, I'm gonna do this all day, do you want to do it with me? And he had such a powerful experience, and so now he, he like like loves when I teach and we go to classes together all the time. Um, and so that, that was cool to just have him like find it a little bit more naturally and not have it be like, you have to do this thing with me.

Yeah, I'm slowly trying to convert my wife into a Kundalini. I don't know if I'll ever get there. I asked her if she wanted to come to India with me for 2 weeks to do a Kundalini retreat. I got a very fast no, to which my next question was, well, how about this 3-day retreat at Kripalu. And she's like, I'll do 3 days.

So, and you guys did that recently, right?

We just, for the second time.

Yeah.

We did the second year in a row. Yeah.

Okay. Amazing. So she practices Kundalini with you, but she's not a teacher.

She's not a teacher. And you know, I would say Kundalini is not her main yoga modality. It's more asana, more hatha based. But, uh, but she does it with me. The thing she hates is when you have to like hold your shit out for like, I don't know, an hour.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's fair. It, Kundalini arms are a real thing.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I'm sure folks listening and watching know about regular yoga, like, so kind of vinyasa flow, hatha, et cetera. But what drew you to Kundalini over that? Maybe, maybe let's, let us do a little sales pitch for Kundalini.

Okay. Yes, let's do that. Well, I was an originally trained, I've been practicing yoga since I was like 2020, '21. And then, um, I did my hatha teacher training and was really like injured at that point. Just, yeah, injured. Um, and I felt like something spiritually was missing. I was like, I, you know, I just— I think there's a deeper connection through yoga that I want to find. And in 2016, I moved to LA for a little bit, and I happened. I had never heard of Kundalini. Like, in your hatha training, there is a paragraph about Kundalini, and I, and I don't remember what that paragraph said. Um, I think it was something about a serpent at the base of my spine, and I was like, okay, that's cool. That was as far as it went.

Um, and it's funny because hatha is a tantric practice. You, you mentioned a bit more.

Yeah. Um, so I get to LA and I'm feeling kind of lonely that first day, and I kind of— I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go to Whole Foods, get some groceries. And I saw on the map this place that said Institute of Yogic Science and Technology. And so that was good.

At the Mountain View Whole Foods, I think.

Yep, exactly. The Rose. Yeah, yeah. And I, and I didn't know it was a Kundalini studio. I hadn't heard of I mean, any— anything related to it. And I just was like, cool, I love that, that place sounds awesome, I'm just gonna go there. And so I walked in and I took a class, and in that first class somebody fainted, and we were like doing— and I was like, what the hell is this? Like, I am intrigued. And, um, it also just so happened that my roommate, who I didn't know, was chanting every, every morning, and I was like, this weird. Like, what is she doing? I'm curious, but it definitely sounds pretty weird in there. And there was just mantras 24/7 coming from her room. And I kept going to a few more classes, and I basically, like, within my third class had, uh, one of the most profound experiences— out-of-body, um, spiritual experiences— with who would become my teacher. And I mean, it just felt like it was what I was looking for in terms of like the depth of connection with myself and the universe. And I was pretty much— it was— it's just when you, when you find that and when it sticks for somebody, it just does have this addictive quality where you start to get really high on life and you— and it's, and it's also like at the beginning, it's not like it was daisies. Like I had that experience, but there was also a lot of pain in that experience. It was like a breakthrough moment of like my heart actually like, like a lot of pain in my heart that led to an opening. And so, and like, and there was like a lot of annoyance and a lot of like pain in holding things. So it's not like it was like, wow, this feels amazing, but it was just challenging me in a way that I was like, what's happening in my brain? And why is my life starting to change? Why are all of these things starting to happen in the ways that they are? And, um, have always been very interested in the mind and in the subconscious. And I guess it was just like, when you— when you're going very often at the beginning as well, and you're in the, the, the gongs and the deep relaxation, like, my nervous system legitimately changed, um, which is one of the benefits of the practice. And it's one of those practices, like, it's meant— it's meant— it's a yoga of experience. It's meant we could talk about it, which I love to do, but then you could also experience it. And that's how it's meant to enter somebody's like field of awareness and understanding. But I think I just— and then also all of the philosophy and the lifestyle and the teachings around it is just like, that is also one of the reasons why, like, the level of depth of the training is— I'd also never received. And I love that that's just in every class too. I mean, depending on who your teacher is, like there's a whole, like, there's just so much there. And for me, I also never, you know, fell into the cult aspect of it. Like, it was always like, okay, I'm going to practice this.

You'll allow yourself to wear colors other than white?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do have a lot of white, um, but like, I didn't feel the need to, you know, wear a turban or convert myself or like, you know, just there was still a sense of balance. I went through my process of it, but I was like, you know, I think ultimately I just know that my life needs to have balance and, you know, I'm gonna allow myself the flexibility to like have a daily practice, but it doesn't need to be that I wake up at 3:30 every day. And so I think it was just, for me it just worked and I made it work for me. And it wasn't like I was gonna necessarily take every single strict thing and make sure I did it that way. And so it has been like nothing but an extremely transformative practice. For me. And yeah. How did you find it?

It was totally by accident. I started doing yoga in my twenties in full candor, cuz women look good in Lululemon. Just, it was that simple. I was back then, they were new. It was a thing. I'm like, wow.

That's awesome.

Full, full candor. Doesn't matter why you start as long as you start.

100%.

And you know, I was a high, hard charging, Type A Virgo CPA at Sky on the career. And it really calmed me down. It grounded me, it balanced me. So I started doing it more and more and I got a little too into the Type A for a while. So I was doing Bikram all the time. And then I practiced, I was practicing a lot, so I wanted to practice every day, but I traveled a lot, so I needed a home practice. So I went on Yoga Globe. I was a very early subscriber to Yoga Globe. And I was doing mainly vinyasa flows, but then I saw Kundalini. I was just like, I have no clue what this is, but I'll try it. It was super weird, but I had felt a level of peace that I had never felt before. And I didn't have a lot of peace at the time because I was just, I had hard charging, no boundaries, like fight or flight, not a lot of stress. I mean, a lot of stress. My coping mechanism for stress at the time was to drink cocktails, which as we know, in no way relieve stress. I was traveling a lot, so yeah, it, it didn't instantly click as my main practice, but it, it just grew and grew.

That was in your 20s too?

No, later.

Later. Okay.

Yeah, it was probably in my mid-30s.

Cool.

Yeah. Um, yeah, 2012 is when I first discovered it, I think. So I would have been 32. I got really serious about it in 2019, and, uh, not coincidentally, that was when my first marriage ended and I went super deep into the practice.

2019 or 12? 2019.

And that practice had given me the tools to really come out of the other end of that thriving, right? Like I had a couple of good friends whose marriages also ended that year, and one drank his way through the pain and the other slept his way through the pain. And I did the opposite. I stopped drinking. I journaled, I meditated. I journaled for most of my adult life, but I went deep. Any feeling I needed to feel, I was going to feel it. And, um, yeah, the practice really gave me the tools to come out on the other side of that. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

And that's beautiful.

And I began the 300-hour training in 2021 with no intention to teach, just to go deeper in the practice. And then along the way, I was just like, man, this thing's changed my life. I'd like to share it with people. So then I went back and did the 200.

How do you do— you did 300 before 200?

I did. Huh.

Cool. And who's your teacher that you, that you study with?

Chantal Miller.

Yeah.

Chantal Miller. As well.

Oh my gosh. Okay. This is great. I'm going to be looking her up. Um, wow. Yeah. I mean, it's, I love that, like we both found it by accident and yeah, I mean, it, it's a very mystical practice.

Mm-hmm. Yep. It is.

And you recognize—

a huge portion, like, that's what you do mention it already, but like a huge part of the appeal for me is it's, it's not just exercise. Yoga, of course, isn't exercise, right? The purpose of yoga is to calm the fluctuations of the mind, and we could all use that. And the thing I love about Kundalini is it just gives me these tools like that go above and beyond sun salutations, like pranayama, such a powerful way to instantly change your state. Chanting, like, uh, just the vibrational effect of that. And like, it's hard to chant and think at the same time. And it's like impossible to chant and be in a bad mood. Shines up.

100%. Yeah. Yeah.

So absolutely transformative to my life.

Yeah. Likewise.

And just giving me the, the energy, the gratitude, and then of course just just opened me up to realize that I'm not this body. I'm not Mark, the CFO or the coach or whatever, which really brings up, I'd love to maybe let's go into this as our last big topic, which also, by the way, could be a podcast in and of itself. But like, so you have this awareness of the greater reality and this, you're on some level of an inner journey. How do you balance, okay, I'm running this company. I have investors, they have expectations. I'm trying to do things. I'm trying to have ambition and success with the desire to maybe, I don't know, go in a cave and just like, "Erlbruch," 16 hours a day?

Oh yeah, that's a really, that's a good one. What I really think about success and my definition of success, it's alignment with soul and what the soul's journey is having come here. I really like evolutionary astrology for this reason. I spent like most of my 20s reading every single book I could on dharma and purpose because I felt so lost, and I felt like I had a really big purpose. And that— I spent the first couple years in a corporate job and eventually left that around 24 turning 25, and just like went on an inner journey, um, really intense journey of like developing, like getting in closer contact with that dharma. And so I think mostly now, like, I, I feel like there is that inner alignment that allows me to really feel such a sense of purpose and like I am doing what I, what I am meant to do. Will that change in 10 years? Yes. But ultimately, like every step I take, every time I follow the thing that doesn't make sense, like, why am I doing my master's right now? I don't know. People ask me that all the time. I think it's one of the first questions you and I talked about too, um, was like, you know, I'm— I am pushing myself beyond, uh, there's sacrifices, you know, that are made in that process. But I think when I really think about, um, the groundedness of like why I came here and anchoring my spirit to the physical form, it's clear to me that I'm not here to just go and meditate in a cave. And when I feel like I wanna do that, I'm actually avoiding something. And there's probably some inner resistance to being like really present with what the next level is and what I'm being asked to do. And so, that's kind of where I'm at with that because I think there are definitely easier paths maybe. Like sometimes I feel in my mind there are easier paths I could have taken. And yet I think I also just come back to being so radically like, Well, am I doing what I feel my soul is meant to do? And the answer is like, absolutely yes. And there's always like every year there's a bigger and different expression of that and it continues to evolve. But it's like, I think that that is to me like what the greatest level of success could look like. And I think that like the monetary success and the material success follow that level of like when you find that magic place of like, holy shit, like locked and loaded and mission aligned. Like there's just this unstoppable force. And I think my teacher, when I first started practicing, which was like, I don't know, it was like hearing something for the first time where you're like, oh my God, thank God. So I think God, I heard that because it was like, you know, one of the tenets in Kundalini is that like you are a lighthouse and if you can just shine at the right degree in the right place, like everything comes to you. And so can you like build your magnetism so that you— and you don't have to be an introvert or an extrovert to this. It's just like, can you build your magnetism to bring what you need to you? And I think that that's like success and, you know, what I aim for.

So much. Yeah. So the style of yoga that I practice, Radiant Body Yoga, that word radiant, it's all about that.

Yes. Yeah. It's so funny. I, my last retreat last year, I did like a, you know, 7 days of the 10 bodies. Everybody was just so obsessed with the radiant body, of course. But it's like, it's a fantastic body. It has, yeah, like like all of the majesty and, you know, you still need to work on all of them, but it is, it's just such an attractive body, a magnetic body.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And when you are there, like I find so many founders, entrepreneurs, they struggle. There's this resistance, this which almost brings up like, uh, scarcity. Like I, I'm attached to this thing that doesn't exist, which is reinforcing the absence of the thing. Whereas if you're actually just living in this place of radiance, I don't know, like I don't wanna get too woo woo, but like everything just sort of happens for you and yeah, life gets easier and your business gets easier.

Yeah. It's a bit of everything, you know, like there is, there is a lot of hard work in it. But also I think there's ease, like ease within that too. And for me, like, I just noticed one of my big resistances that was coming up for me that I was been journaling about for the past couple mornings. And then I just had this like big unlock around it this morning and just coming back to the practices and like really investing in like the being the witness to the emotions and what's happening in the mind, the stories and the narratives we tell ourselves. And I think like I experienced that resistance all the time. And if I can like create a little bit of space to be present with it, then like there's, there is an unlock that happens where like I can step into the ease place with more ease, um, so to speak, you know, because I've, because I've been like present with that intense feeling.

Well, Tanya, there's so much more I could ask. I love so much conversation.

Likewise.

I thank you so much. I hope we see each other in person. I hope we practice together.

Me too. We're, I'm planting, planting those seeds for September.

Yeah.

We'll be back then. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's, I love chatting with you.

Yay. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to the Startup CEO Show. If you'd like to connect with me, be sure to visit my website at markmacleod.me or follow me on LinkedIn at The Mark MacLeod or Twitter at @MarkMacLeod_, and if you want to tune in again next week, be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time.