Ep126: Mark Wills

You're listening to the Pulled by the Root podcast. For more information, visit us on the web at www.pulledbytheroot.com.

Hello everyone. This is your host, Heidi Marble. I'm so glad you're here to listen in. We have Elle Claassen, my co host here. Hi Elle.

Hi Heidi.

And an incredible guest, Mark Wills. Thanks for being here, Mark.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited. Let's go.

Oh, Mark, I'll tell you what, first of all, before I read your bio, when I looked into all of your YouTube, first of all, you're an amazing dancer. So let's just get that xlb, you.

Know, look, look, don't get mad. No, should.

Yeah. Your energy, your smile, it's electric. You have so much energy to pour out. So I'm just so happy you're here to give our community a little bump up. So let's read your introduction here, Mark. Mark Wills is a true definition of what it means to turn trauma into triumph. He is one of the highest producing notary loan signing agents in the country. Owner of a national loan signing service, best selling author and the course instructor of loan signing system, the premier notary signing agent training to thousands of people coast to coast. Mark was born in Korea and given up for adoption at age 2, only to be returned and put into foster care system and was adopted again at age 8. Mark has taken his many traumas and used them as a motivation to become successful. It is now his passion to share his message with as many people as possible. So Mark, I saw the video before we pressed record that went viral and I have to tell you, I sat here and cried because the images, your story is so powerful and you're so full of light and love and energy. But I think people need to understand what you went through. Can you walk us through?

Yeah, I know. Thank you for having me. What you guys are doing is unbelievable and so thank you for what you're doing for the adoptive community as a whole. And so I think this is beautiful and just thank you for letting me, letting me be a small part of what you guys are doing for the adoptive community. So thank you. You know, my story starts in Korea. I am 46 and I share that because my, I'm basically a Korean War baby. And so what a lot of people don't know is, you know, after the Korean War, this is basically when north and South Korea were in it and America came over and supported South Kore. American soldiers occupied a lot of South Korea at the time and so they Say that there are 200,000 babies of American soldiers in Korea. Crazy. And those are 200,000 babies left. And so what happened was it became a drain on the Korean society with all these Americans having babies with these Koreans, and they're taking off and going back home. And so because of that, half American babies were looked very down upon. It is whatever the word racism is, times 10 was in Korea. And so because I was half Korean, half American, I was looked down upon. And so my biological father is or was an American soldier, however you want to phrase that, and had a child with my mom. And so my mom understood, my biological mom, I call my adoptive mom my mom. But nonetheless, my biological mom understood that I would have a very difficult life in Korea. And so she had me from about zero to about one and a half. And then she made the decision to put me in an orphanage. Where I feel very blessed and where I feel. Where I feel very fortunate is I felt a mother's love. And I know a lot of people in the adoption community doesn't feel that from biological. And I definitely. I think that is part of my story. And so she chose to give me up out of love and put me in the orphanage in Korea so I could be an interdoptional adoptee in America. And so I was in an orphanage from about 1 and a half to 2 and a half in a Catholic orphanage in right outside of Seoul, Korea. And I was adopted by this family called the Beasleys. And I was there from two and a half to five and a half, two and a half to seven and a half. Excuse me. And, you know, they show they decided that was too much, that they made the decision that, you know, adopting me was the wrong decision. And so then they made the decision to un adopt me. And, you know, I've gone through a lot of therapy and a lot of healing. And so, you know, I'm very, at this point in my journey just understanding that people only have the tools that they have at the time and have empathy around that. And so, you know what I used to say when I was sharing my stories? They gave me up like you return something to Amazon and return something to FedEx. And while I felt that for many years, it almost simplified what really happened. And so I don't want to paint them in that negative of light, but the truth is that they gave me up for adoption. They gave me up for adoption again and put me in the foster care system. And so then I floated in the foster care system for about a year. Year and A half. And then I got adopted by the Wills family. That's who I call mom and dad today. And to put a little spin to my crazy stories, My family has 25 children. So my parents adopted 20 different children. They had five of their own because that wasn't enough, apparently. And so they're like, we need more. And so then happen. 25. And now I am 46. I have a child of my own. I'm happily married, and I'm a big supporter of the foster community here in San Diego. And so I've turned my pain into passion and my trauma and a triumph. And, you know, my. I now have a community of 70,000 notaries that I help every day. And I let them know that they who are who they are, not in spite of the past, but because of it. It can be a beautiful thing. And so I am who I am because of what happened to me. I'm not damaged. I'm a beautiful human, and I'm doing my best to help as many people as I can on this planet. So that is my story. And let's dive into it if you want, deeper.

I appreciate you sharing that, Mark, because it is a remarkable story. And I want to know, in studying and researching, you said you always put why at the forefront? Can we dive a little bit deeper into that? Because I don't think a lot of people do that.

You know, I don't know how deep you want to go. And I want to be an open book. Right? Yeah. So There was about 20 years where my misunderstanding of what happened, you know, we tend to put it. Put a lens on what we think happened, and that happens, that helps us through our trauma. But I've done a lot of deep work. And so, you know, I share that because I used to try to prove something to myself that I was good enough and that I was worthy. But as I got more through my healing, I really realized that it's not me against the world, it's me for the world. And so now I serve. And so I think that through my healing, it really was an understanding that I can serve. And I don't need to be angry, and it doesn't need to be a source of, like, I'm going to get back at what happened. It's. I'm going to give light to somebody else. And so why I do everything is because I know what it feels like to feel not wanted. I know what it feels like to feel abandoned. I know what it feels like to feel like you're not good enough. You're not lovable. You're not worthy. And so I don't want anybody to feel that my community, the loan signing system community, knows that I'm there virtually or in person if you need me. I got you. And I just want to make sure that every person on this planet has that somebody. And so that is why I lead with why. Because I don't want anybody to feel what I felt and the pain that I have felt and the loneliness that I felt. And so, you know, it's taken many years for me to be able to communicate why with you without breaking down and crying. And so I'm very proud of where I am. And I know everyone can be here who's adopted. It's got to do the work. It's. It's hard, it's nasty. But there's something beautiful at the end. And I'm just very happy that I'm still a work in progress, but got over a big lump of my. Of my healing journey. So, you know, like I said when I shared my story with you in the beginning, I just have a lot of animosity towards the family that gave me up. But it's not that easy. It really does them an injustice and myself an injustice to feel like it was just as easy as giving me up. And so, you know, that in itself is what kind of had this tightness. And I love what you said, Al, about having chronic go away, because sometimes we let go of these narratives and these stories is kind of all we need to do to kind of keep going down that journey, not feel stuck. And so if anybody's listening, you know, it's. You can get through whatever you're getting through. It's hard, but it's worth it, man. And so that's why I start with why. Because I know how hard it is, and. And I know how difficult it is. And it's. You ladies know as well as I do you feel lonely at times, and there's nothing scarier than feeling alone, and I don't want anyone to feel that. So my why leads with empathy and compassion for anybody. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter if you're adopted or not. We all have traumas, and we all have a story, so that's why I lead with it, man.

I love that. I love that. Elle, any thoughts on that before I ask Mark another question?

Well, I just think it's really interesting, that idea of story, the stories that we need to tell ourselves and. And as we are going through healing, however it is that we can Pursue that. You talked about therapy and that sort of stuff. I just think we also need to give ourselves, cut ourselves slack, that that's what we needed at the time. Right. We were kids. We did feel abandoned. That was our truth at the time. I mean, and still could be. But the point is, it's part of the journey. You know, I've often said here, one of my favorite artists is Alanis Morissette. One of her lines in a song, and our audience is going to be like, oh, my God, here she goes again. But the only way out is through. You know, you can't ignore it either. And you can't just put, you know, grin and bear it. That's not going to work. And I think the only way you can get to where you are, where we're all trying to get, although you said you're still a work in progress, as we all are right to the end, is going through it, having empathy for that little person or the young person who is struggling. Because, let's face it, even what you said about being the, like, available for your people, for your community, you know, I think one of the things, us as adoptees, and it's not exclusive to adoptees, but it is sort of a ubiquitous feeling I seem to hear, is the idea that we don't want anyone else to feel rejected either.

That's right.

Right. Because it's so deep in us that the idea that others could feel rejection from us or not being accepted is really important. And I think we do bring that. And I love the energy you bring to that.

Thank you.

Yeah, me too, Mark. And if, Excuse me, if we can rewind, like, way, way back, I like to go back sometimes.

Let me just say something else. I think El said it's so great. And I agree. I think that giving ourselves grace is the key to moving through it. Right. And so. And everyone's journey is different. And by the way, a healing is not a destination, it's a journey. And so, like, I am still healing, I'm still integrating. I'm still, you know, I'm sure this conversation will bring things up, and I'm just prepared for whatever the next step of integration is. And it's really just being okay with that part of the journey and not trying to avoid it. And so the way I. The way I move through it is exactly what you said. Giving ourselves grace, you know. Exactly. Our truth is our truth. Being paralyzed by it is what I find hurt me and my journey. And so it's not saying the truth didn't happen. It's. It's. For me, it was a choice of being paralyzed by it and. And by giving myself grace. And not only myself grace, but the whole situation grace. Like the adoptive family that gave me up. And while I may never really agree with it, like, I gotta give them grace that they adopted a kid from Korea who only spoke Korean, who knew the mom who got ripped away from it, and they tried their best to love me. And so there is grace. I got to give on the attempt. But holding so much animosity and ignoring the humanization of life is what hurt me and my healing process. It was like I expected them to be superhuman. I expected them to not feel the, you know, the. The agony of raising a child who got ripped from Korea and spoke another language, who ate rice and kimchi, who went to hot dogs and hamburgers overnight and Mac and cheese. And so there's just a lot, I think, for me, and I don't want to stand on a soapbox, but I think really giving our entire journey grace of our experience and the experience of the people that we feel, quote, unquote, did this to us, gives some levity to it and allows us to move through it. And it's not to say that I'm over it. It's not to say that I don't have any quote, unquote, feelings towards them giving me up, but I have a lot more grace about the situation.

And.

And they're human, and they're like, I'm 46, and they're trying to raise a, you know, a two. Two and a half year old from a different country when they're, like, in their 30s. Like, I come, I have one kid. I can barely do with one kid, you know, so it's just really trying to give grace to the entire scenario. That doesn't mean you need to forgive and forget. It just means you give grace. And so I agree with you, Al. I think that what really is lost on some people, and again, what I also like to say too, is trauma is trauma's trauma. It's not a battle of whose trauma is worse. Right? Everyone experiences and goes through their journey of whatever it is, but just giving all of it grace was what really helped me. So I don't know if that helps anybody listening and really trying to, you know, humanize the process and realize we're all humans. And the beautiful part about humans, we're flawed. And I've made mistakes, and I hope someone's able to give me grace because of mistakes I've made. And. And so that's what really has helped me process and go through what I'm going through. And so I thought there was something I wanted to touch upon. Sorry for taking a right turn, but I love what you said because I do think it's about grace, but on both ends.

No, I love that you took a right turn. And we can do three sixties. We can do. You do whatever you want, Mark. But one thing I was really thinking about is your. Your biological mom. And I'm just curious if you would mind talking about. Because where you left office, she was putting you on a plane to come to America. And that picture of the two of you in that moment. Oh, my gosh, Mark, my. My heart just fell out of my body. So have you had a chance to reconnect with her? Does she know.

Yeah.

That you're okay.

What.

What can you tell us about.

Yeah, she passed away. She passed away. She passed away 10 years ago.

No.

You know, I choose to believe she did it out of love. It was the hardest decision a mom can make. And so, you know, I have just grace and I have so much just pride and. And I really do understand that a lot of my journey is predicated on a solid foundation of love. And I don't take that for granted because I know some adopted children don't get that opportunity. So I really try to look at it through a lens of gratitude. Not necessarily, poor me, poor her. I was just so fortunate to have those two years and forever grateful for it. And that's the lens I choose to look at it out instead of the heartbreak. It's heartbreaking for her. I miss her. It took me a lot of years to be able to say that, but, yeah, I miss her. I wish she was here on the other side of that token. I just have so much gratitude for it. And I've gratitude for that picture of gratitude for the moment of gratitude for, you know, being able to love. And I think she gave me that foundation. So it's really a choice to. To decide to just really have a good POV on that and instead of looking at what I could. Because you can be the victim or the victor, and, you know, I choose to be a victor. And I choose to look at what. What greatness came out of that picture and the fact that I was blessed enough that she was able to put me on that airplane versus how horrific was that day. And so I really choose to look at it from a standpoint of light, not a standpoint of darkness. And I'm proud of that growth because I'VE not. I haven't always been able to say that. And so I sit here today just really understanding how powerful and awesome that moment was.

Well, I think a lot of it is both and. Rather than either or. Right. And I think. I wonder for those adoptees, because we're talking about that again, a lot of this isn't exclusive, but this is an adoptee podcast, so I'm just gonna.

Yeah.

But for a lot of us, it seems like the rending, the relinquishment, because we don't know why, or so many don't know why, or they don't have the explanation. For those of us with closed records or international, where there are no records, and then somebody goes back to whatever country they were adopted from and, oh, there was a flood or a fire. We don't have your records, you know, are left with a lot of questions. But I wonder if a certain amount of resilience comes from knowing you were very loved and wanted. I. When I met my first mom, she told me so. It was 1970. She's 19. It's Canada. You. You can't keep your baby. Right. It's cultural, It's. It's eugenics. It's the whole thing. But she kept me in the hospital with her for four days, so I never grew up thinking that she didn't want me. No, I didn't have that in paper or anything. I just somehow. Yeah, I don't know. I knew that. And when I met her, she said, you were never unwanted. You were unexpected. Right. But those of us who have a frame of reference, even if it's four days or two years, that you had a start, a loving start, I wonder sometimes if we have not less. It's not the Trauma Olympics, but there's just an added element somehow that you had that maybe even other adoptees from Korea didn't have, because they don't. They don't know the backstory.

They don't know, you know, because I'm talking to an adoptive community, I felt like it was important for me to say that, you know, when I'm usually talking about this, I don't feel that's as relative, but I thought in here, to your point is, I do feel like I was fortunate in that. Like, you had those four days. Yeah, two years. And so I 100% feel like that gave me a solid foundation. So, yeah, I agree. And I do feel it was relative to say, because I don't want to stand on the soapbox like, I'm the strongest human in the world. And so I do feel like I was blessed in that aspect. Right. And so, but I do challenge this idea of why, because I think why is what causes us to go and do a spiral. When sometimes, in my opinion, the why, what's more relative is, in my opinion is accepting what has happened versus trying to figure out why it did. Because the why will eat you alive. And, and, and I say that from personal experience. It's like, you know, versus, like, can I just accept what has happened instead of the why it happened? Because it's to your point. It's like you can go when you don't find it. You're almost crazier than when you were before. You're trying to look for it. And So I have 20 children, 20 adopted brothers and sisters, excuse me, 25 children in my family. So I've seen all the paradigms. I've seen the kids who have tried to search for the wise and just go down this path of like. And then I've, you know, we have this. I have a subset or. And really kind of accepted what's happened. You know, here's what I tell my community at loan signing system is we have, we have a decision that we can make, which is every event that has happened to us can be a asset or liability. To me, that's a choice. Right. And so as someone who's gone through emotional trauma, again, this. I love your word. I'm going to steal. It's not the Trauma Olympics.

Love that saying.

I've never had a. How to phrase it, but I'm going to steal it. But anyways. But I believe everyone can be an asset or liability. And so if you can choose to make it an asset, everything changes. I think a why try and go down the why is making it a liability. And again, I don't want to stand on a soapbox. I know. And so I'm trying to be as. From what I like to call an experience share. And so when I, when I realized that if I stopped chasing the why and started chasing just the acceptance, I was able to breathe easier, I was able to love better, I was able to move forward quicker. And so I give credence to anyone who does what they need to do on their healing journey. But that's just my 2 cents on. Since we are on an adoption podcast, I just figured I'd laid out. But I don't want to come off as someone who's healed because I'm not healed. I fully, I fully expect this conversation is going to bring up feelings, but I accept it. I don't avoid it. And so it's all part of the process. And I think the why. I've seen so many adopted from my family chase the why. And it's. The sooner we just accept, the sooner the process can go where you can kind of get back on track. So that's just my personal two cents.

So, Mark, I have. I have some questions about that because I've had a totally different experience. I'm not as positive as you. And I have gone down the rabbit hole and wanted to know the circumstances of my adoption. I wanted to understand the why. I felt it was important to my healing. So how do you explain that to someone like me? Who. You want the facts? Is it accepting the facts? Because to me, why this happened, I think it matters to a lot of people.

Well, I would ask, what are you chasing? Right. And so, yeah, so it is, are you chasing a hole? And I say that inquisitively. And so because usually if I've found and I say from the experience of my 20 children, adopted sisters and brothers, is like, what are we chasing? Are we like, at some point the story ends or starts with someone didn't love us enough? We kind of already know that. And so the sooner we kind of heal from that, I think the sooner life becomes more breathable. And so I don't fault anyone for chasing the why. I don't. And so I hope it didn't come off like that. I really hope it didn't. This is kind of the most in depth. I've already talked about my feelings around this situation, so I apologize if it comes off as if I talked down. That wasn't my point. But, you know, I think the question is, why are you trying to find the answers? Is the goal that. Because I think the goal is healing or moving through it. And so in my opinion, if it's like. So here's what my therapist do. I have one of the best trauma therapists in America, by the way. Her name's Annie Brooks. She deals with adopted children. She's 250 bucks an hour. She's really expensive, but she's unbelievable, which she's really taught. I've been through a ton of therapists. I really. I got recommended her through someone else who's been unbelievable. And so, you know, what she's really tried to get me to understand is when we let go of the levity of the story, we can breathe earlier easier. So the earlier. The earlier, we can let go of the levity of it. And what she means by that is sure it was the Beasley's fault they gave you up, but is that going to help you move forward or just accepting it happened and giving grace to whatever situation? It was like, look, she. And like I told you, it's like I was probably a handful. It doesn't make it right, by the way that they gave me up, but it allows me to humanize them. And we're all humans, and we all make mistakes, we all have regrets. And to hold someone to such a high standard that they shouldn't make a massive. Have a massive fault is really holding us back from healing. And so, look, that they did what they did. It's not. It wasn't cool, wasn't great. But let me say this to you ladies. And I don't know, because you guys both seem amazing human beings. Like, you're doing the work right now. You're putting the effort in helping the community. So I ask you this. This is what I always say. If I had the childhood that I dreamed of, I wouldn't be the person I am today. And I love who I am today because I love giving back. I love being empathetic. I love being compassionate. I love wanting to help the underdog win. So if I had everything I want, I came from a perfect family. I wouldn't be making the impact I'm making, and nor would you ladies. You wouldn't be doing this for humans who don't have a voice. And I think it's beautiful that your journey led you to this because you're helping humans who never have a voice or community or. Or someone else to make them not feel alone. And so I choose to look at my scenarios like I could find out why they did it. I don't know why they did it, but instead I'm like, they're flawed humans, like all of us. And so I'm giving them grace for being flawed. Because I am flawed.

I wonder, too. Sorry. I wonder too, if there's an aspect also of sometimes we do find the answer, we do find the why, right? But when there isn't an answer, what. What is my response?

That's exactly my point.

And I think that's what you're getting at. If you can actually. If there is an answer to get, and if you can get it and then work through it, work with it, integrate it, whatever, then great. But if there is no answer, you know, for instance, international adoptees again. And so often I've heard of trips back to Korea or to Haiti or many of the places that are you Know, very common to adopt from. And there are no records or. Yeah, there was a surprise flood or the surprise fire, you know, where all the records are gone, and there are no answers. Now what is the point like that. That's where it can drive you, you know, bonkers, I think, and go totally bananas. It's sort of like when I met my. My first mom and she wondered after a while what my expectations had been, because she was sure I'd had expectations. And I've always been a pretty easygoing person. And so I said my expectation was that we could be kind to each other. And she thought there must have been more. Still, like, no, honestly, I just. Whether you wanted a relationship or not or, you know, whatever, could we just be kind? But it. It feels like that. It feels like, okay, I can't have an answer. So now I guess I just. I need to work through that, of course, and that's gonna hurt.

But now what the real answer is. Humans are flawed. And someone in our past, a flawed human, made a decision that affected us, one say, negatively. But again, you two ladies are doing work that, like, I think is beautiful.

Thank you.

You're welcome. And because of your past, you're here today. And so those are the lenses I tend to look at. Because, yes, I would have loved to have a perfect family. I would have loved to have a dad and mom. I would have. I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't. It would been unbelievable. But I would not be the person I am today, making the impact and trying to change many human lives. And so I'm also grateful for that. And so. So it's like, really just for my process, it was just really trying to give everybody grace. We're all flawed. Like, and. And it doesn't. And because we're flawed, that doesn't mean you should forgive somebody. That just means giving them grace. So you can let go of this tightness in your chest that we all probably know what I'm talking about. And it's like. And that's what helped me. It's like they made a up decision. I'm not sure if I can say this on there.

Yeah. Yes, we are all about rated R and D.

They made a up decision, but they're flawed humans. We all are. That's what makes us beautiful. It just sucks sometimes that we are the result or our hearts and souls were damage, quote unquote, from their flawed decision. But they're just flawed humans. We've, all three of us on here have done something that we just effing regret every day. That's my point. And we all hope to gosh that we're not judged by that because we do so many other things.

Amazingly, that's true.

And that's the grace I give because I used to hold. I used to have that polarizing view on the Beasleys, a polarizing view on the foster care system. I was only hurting me, dude.

That's true, Mark. Well, you know, when I was watching your. Your talk and you were speaking to having to walk into these foster care situations, and it was kind of dog eat dog and in order. And, and can you tell people about how you gained enough self confidence to matter to yourself?

Yeah. No.

Can you explain that? Because I think maybe that's where you started turn toward strengthening that inner core.

Yeah, no, it's a good. It's a good question. So for those who have not been in the foster care system, you know, it's like walking into a new high school, man. Like, if we've all, like walking into grade school at lunch, in the lunchroom, you're getting judged. You're, you know, they're figuring out, can we push you around that, you know, the, the natural kids of the foster parents are, you know, you know, everyone's 6, 7, 8, 9, whatever, and they're just kind of jockeying for the position. And so you. I, unfortunately, and children who go from foster to foster and foster unfortunately understand this really quick. It is. There's a pecking order and where can I get in? Right? It's no different than. Than a classroom. And so you learn really quickly. It's either you got to make a stand or you don't. And so I learned after the second foster home, and mind you, I was seven years old, so I was definitely, you know, I'm not, not a toddler per se, that I got to make a stand. And I learned early on, like, no one's gonna make a stand for me. And so that just kind of carried on. And that resilience that I learned from it is something I have, I am proud of again. I look back on my journey and I'm like, look, I wish I didn't go through the foster care system, but would I be this resilient? Like, I got a son who has it good. And I'm like, I'm like, how do I create resilience in my kid? You know? And so as much as I, I get frustrated sometimes at my journey, it's like because of going to foster foster and then going into a family of. At the time was 18 and they adopted more. After I got adopted, it was same thing, was more like a group environment, but this time it's going in with 12 year olds and 14 year olds and 15 year olds and you just had to learn how to jockey because if you didn't equip, you didn't stand up for yourself, you wouldn't get seconds. And so it was really just baptism by fire. And again, it was just learning that I had to do it and that the resilience that I have today was because of the childhood that I had. And I choose to look at that as an asset, not a liability.

I love it, Mark. And I want to do a U turn because I think parenting and being adopted is a really interesting thing. And I have a grown son, so I can't have any do oversight. Elle's got three beautiful kids, they're grown, no do overs. However, I think I overly compensated because I didn't want him to feel anything. And he started listening to different podcasts and stuff. He goes, mom, I have to suffer. He actually realized it on his own. And I'm like, well, I can make you suffer but you know, can you talk about your experience of parenting a little bit more just because you touched on it? And then I want to talk about your massive success after that.

I appreciate it. Yeah, it's being a parent adopted. And I still go to therapy every other week like clockwork. I don't miss a therapy session. And so I, I'm, I, I think one of my best successes as a human and as a business owner is I'm very self. Aware. There is like in this conversation I'm trying to be self aware of, like, don't sound like you're in a soapbox. Don't sound like you're talking down to someone. Somebody. Like I'm very self aware. So I don't know where I got that from. But my point is, is, you know, I talked to my therapist, like sometimes I feel like I can't go on a work trip for more than three days because I'm scared he's going to feel abandoned. And she's like, that's you, that's not him. And so I'm, there's moments I have to work on as a parent to be like, okay, that's not his issue. He doesn't feel like I'm abandoning him when I'm on a four day work vacation, a work trip, he's, he knows you're going to come back. And so, because I didn't know if Someone was going to come back, and so I put that trauma on him and what you said in an overly loved way. And so I am aware that I smother him with love. And so, you know, here's what I say about adopted kids, people, adults, whatever word you want to use, as I find that adoptive people tend to be very loyal because we know what it's like to feel left. We know what it's feeling like to have known a new corner. So, like, my bet is you two, as friends, as spouses, are just uber loyal. And so my loyalty is to a fault, you know, because I'm like, I want to be there, and I want to do it. And so those are things I'm working on. But, yes, you're right. We have to let them have a little suffering. We ought to let them fall down. And. And so I struggle with that. But I'm. Like I said, I. I do feel fortunate that I have a very good therapist and I have someone to bounce that off her that I may be overcompensating. And so I do my best to, like, take a left turn.

Oh, that's. That's awesome, Mark. Any thoughts on that, Elle, before we talk about Mark.

So much, I mean, I think I often vacillated between being a little bit aloof because I was. I felt alone a lot of the time. And so I had two older sisters in my adopting family, and the oldest was their biological. The second was also adopted, but they were 10 and 12 years older than I was, so I was almost like an only child. So not only was I not like them, et cetera, et cetera, I was alone literally a lot. And so I just got used to being alone. So I would vacillate with parenting between probably not smothering as much as a lot of people would. And yet then there's these moments like, love me, love me. Like, you know, so that's just kind of a funny thing, because I think I would. The. The part that I could relate to is that wanting to fix things, wanting to make it okay, but when you can't. You can't possibly fix everything for them, right? Not their friendships, not difficulties. You can't. You just can't. It's that Finding Nemo moment where Dory looks at. Is it Marlon, the dad or whatever? He goes. And she. And he's like, I said I'd never let anything happen to him. And she goes, well, that's kind of. That's kind of weird. You can't keep things from happening to him. And I think I did that.

This brings up something else that I think is fun to talk about. You said we can do 360, so let's do what? Three, spin it around. You know, I. I don't know about you two, but, you know, part of. Because we're about to go into my success. And so before we go into that and get. I still have a work in progress on the success. But anyways, you know, I found myself early being a workaholic, but because I was trying to avoid the pain. And so what I found, if I can keep myself busy and always think about the next business, the next project, the next this, then I did. I didn't have time to sit with my thoughts and with my pain. And so sometimes, not all the time. The people who search for the why are searching for the why because they'd rather do that than sit with the pain of healing. It's like we're trying to search because that keeps us busy. I'm going to find this, I'm going to find that. That just keeps us busy. And instead of just sitting with what we know we got to do. And that's the hard work of healing. It's the hard work of using the through analogy. And so I have brothers and sisters who just always search. And I'm like, you're just avoiding the work. The work is healing through it. The work is accepting. The work is having grace. The work is understanding that sometimes it is what it is, and that just has to be good enough. But the constant busyness or the constant searching, and for me, it wasn't searching was always. I'd work 20 hours a day, and I used to use it as a badge of honor when I realized it was actually a sign of weakness.

Well, and in our culture, Western culture actually does think that's right.

That's why. Look at me, I'm working 20 hours a day. I got a big business, and it was just right.

It's the cult of busy and it is rewarded. And so that's just general culture. Add that onto an adoptee's plate. You know, I also think, shoot, the train's going off the tracks. In terms of the why, in terms of looking and just being okay if there isn't something and keeping busy to avoid the pain, all those different things, whether it is work or whether it is volunteering or whether it is drinking or whether, yeah, like working out, anything can become a thing. But I think that really struck me when you said that, because I think part of the reason why a Lot of adoptees stay busy, fill in the blank with whatever, and don't work through the pain. But we've told there's no pain to be worked through. We've been told you were lucky you were adopted. Just be grateful there's no pain to work through. You were little. You can't remember. And so I think it. Each of us comes to the point of realizing we actually have to work through shit because we realize, oh, no, that was painful. But we've been. We were gaslit into thinking there was nothing to work through, nothing to see here, nothing to see. And so I think that is a huge aspect of keeping busy because we don't even know half the time that there's a ton to work through because we were told there is nothing to work through.

Yeah, I almost have nothing to add to that, though. I agree. Like, it's. It's totally agree with you on that. It's. It's very unfortunate that, you know, we were given that mantra. And again, I. This is because of my healing journey. Like, I. I almost want to give them grace. It's like they're all trying to help us. They just didn't know how. Like, you know, the best thing sometimes, like, when soul cries, I'm like, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. This is my go to. And I'm trying to figure out, like, how to redirect his pain versus letting him sit through it. And so sometimes it's like, you know, I think of what you said, it's like, you should be grateful or you should. There's no pain. It's. It was them not giving the tools to help us, and it's almost not their fault. And that's the part of this journey. It's having a moment of like, we're all just flawed humans trying to help flawed humans. And we're just doing the best we have with the tools that they got. And so for the parents we who. Who said that, but they really said it out of love, but it didn't have the tools that they needed. And I tend to look at those parents now on the other side of this journey of like, they were just doing the best they could. And so to even call it gaslighting, to me, it's still a negative connotation. You're almost taking away their lack of tools. And to me, if there's any fix in the system, all adoptive parents should learn they should be mandated to take a course on how to deal with the topic of kids.

Please.

Absolutely.

Age group in our age group in your 40s or even 30s, they didn't have the tools. And, and to hold them accountable for not having the tools, I actually think is not fair to our healing journey.

Well, you know, here's, here's where I would disagree with that. And I, I totally, I agree in some ways. But on the other hand, Betty Jean Lifton's book was published in 1976. So, you know, the resources have been there, but I think the industry, I think, you know, it's been spun a certain way. But I wouldn't throw it all on to the adopting parents. That's not, that wasn't where I was thinking about gaslighting. But it's even just the general public, like if you go on to adoptee Twitter or the younger adoptees who are doing TikTok, the comments that, that just the general public say that's, that's where it is. Like, no one wants to acknowledge that it is a trauma to be separated. Like we are little mammals, right? And so we respond to our mothers as mammals do. It's, it's a mother baby bond and it lasts for years and years. And to break it off and expect that there will be no consequences when we don't even allow people to separate puppies and kittens from their parents too early, that is where I think people get gaslit is even not just by their family or, you know, parents who did want the best and who do love them and wanted to love them and desperately wanted children for whatever reason, but everyone else who simply doesn't want to look at it and admit that this needs work.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Elle. And I'd like to chime in a little here too, because I see both perspectives. But what I think is so important about these conversations and the debates, we need to change the narrative about adoption and adoption loss and help adopted people heal. And that starts with acknowledgement. You can't heal something if you don't know what it is. And what you know, Elle, I agree with you, is the narrative that's been pulled through. You know, the three parties have been taken advantage of greatly, in my opinion. You've got an industry that's money driven. You've got adopted parents who are either infertile or their scenario, you have a baby, you have a birth mother who's vulnerable and, and who's making the money here, you know, so we can, I mean, that's probably a, a really like speedy off ramp in a Ferrari, so we won't go there.

But I mean, I am not Bashful, because, I mean, I think everything's constructive. I. And what I would say is healing's not linear, meaning that it's not the same thing for everybody. And I hope I've been expressing that this is just one man's experience. It's not the only way.

Oh, of course.

Yeah. And so healing looks different to every person. And so I, in my opinion, I just wish. What I wish for adoptive community is that everyone knows that healing is possible. And whatever your version of that is, I'm rooting for you. I'll support you. I only can share what's worked for me, and that doesn't mean it could work for everybody else. I know I'm very fortunate to have an amazing attachment disorder therapist. Therapist. And so, you know, everything, I am just regurgitating what I've learned. And so that's not saying it's right. It's basically Annie Brooks teachings. So, you know, it looks in so many different ways. I just want everybody to know that what I tell my community, and maybe this is a good time to segue to that is like, yes, we are who we are because of it, not in spite of it. And I think we're the victim or the victor any parts of our life. Right. And so I teach notaries how to make money. And there's gonna be moments where you're gonna get discouraged. It's like you can either be a victim or victor of that scenario. And so this idea of victim or victor is not relative to adoptees. It's just relative. Just like, what are we going to do to pick ourselves up to get up? And so like I said, I think you guys would are doing amazing work for the community. So I'm just honored to get to know you both on this podcast. I feel your energy, I feel your. Your compassion and your willingness to just share. So it's a beautiful thing. So great work.

Well, Mark, as we, as we kind of, you know, wrap it up here is you have a lot of people listening to you. And what would be the distilled message that you want to send? Because a lot of people are in pain. A lot of people don't have your endurance.

Yeah.

A lot of us self sabotage. Like, we get up to that really beautiful thing and then we find a way to just wreck it because we don't feel worthy. Yeah, but I can tell you feel worthy and you've done the hard work and it doesn't mean you're still not in pain.

Yeah.

So how can you tie that all up on this roadway We've been.

Well, you know, what's funny is, you know, I think I. What, what is. I think helps a lot of humans is realizing when you're not alone. My, My. My wife is from a divorced family, and she experienced that in a. In her way, and it was very traumatic. And so my point of saying that is, you know, I sometimes think we, as humans, when we're in pain, that no one. That we're not relatable to anybody else. And so the first thing I say is, you're not alone. That's my point. You're not alone. Whatever you're feeling, you're not alone. And what I. That's exactly what I tell my community is like, you're not alone. No matter where you are in your journey, there's someone else going through the same thing as you are. And it's your job to reach out, right? Because life can be lonely, but it's only lonely if you choose to make it lonely. And so, like you said, being part of a community helps. And so what I tell my students is, I'm stealing the trauma Olympics, by.

The way, so it's yours. Yes.

So, you know, it's not a trauma Olympics mean like, my, My sports not any worse than your sport. We all got it. And so I tell, you know, someone at adoptee who's struggling that you're not the only one struggling. We're all going through it. But what differs between people who are successful and unsuccessful? Successful people are willing to do the work, and you just got to do the work. It doesn't matter if you're trying to be the best salesman in the world, you're trying to be the best notary. I happen to help a lot. A lot of humans make money in the notary niche, but I can be dealing with someone who got a divorce or someone who has had a bad childhood. They're unadopted, and it's their limiting beliefs are setting them back from going out and building a business. So limiting beliefs aren't unique to adoptees. And so, you know, and trauma is not a unique to us. And frankly, my wife and her divorce, going through it like it affects her as much as my background affects me. And so I don't want to diminish anyone else's. Trauma is the first thing we shouldn't be doing. And the second thing is just realizing that we're not alone. So no matter who you are listening, like, if you're in a dark place, you're not alone. But here's the good news. Is there are so many people who found the light and use them as inspiration. Use them. If they can do it, I can do it. But success starts with your ability and yearning to just do the work. Because we all can complain we're broke, or you can do the work to be unbroke. And so it's like making money is actually pretty easy in this country. It's, you find someone who's made money and you just do what they did. Now, it might have taken them four years to get there, but you just got to do the work. It's the thing is, people don't see the four years of work, and so they're like, oh, so they had it easy. No one had it easy. And so I'm 46 and, and I've been through some stuff, man, to get to where I am from a mental standpoint, from a health standpoint. You know, it took me until I was 4:40 to share my story out loud. And so, you know, I, I, I'll tell you guys, the honest truth is I used to not tell people I was adopted. Why? Because I didn't want people to judge me on alert, on a curve, like, oh, he's doing great for being adopted. That was my own limiting thoughts, like, oh, man, Mark for being adopted, he's doing so great. And so I had this limiting beliefs. Now I'm like, dude, I'll tell anybody, because we're all going through a journey. I said, accepted mine and now want to help other people with theirs. And so I help people, you know, in the notary niche. But the truth is, the people trying to make money all have limiting beliefs. And, and it really, and here's what I'll say too, is adoptees feel like, you know, we don't feel loved. We, we feel abandoned. We feel like we're not worthy. News flash. Almost everybody feels like that. I mean, to a certain degree, everyone feels like they're not good enough, they're not worthy. You can come from the best parent, but your parents, like, oh, you only got, you didn't get an A. You didn't get an A. They're gonna have a gaping hole that they're not good enough. Or, you know, their dad was always on a work trip and they weren't, they'd feel like they weren't good enough to be at home. It's like we all, as humans, we're all kind of dealing with the same things, just a different angle of it. And I don't know if that was helpful for me to know that it wasn't the only going through this. That's why I say it like that. And I know it works for my community. It's like, look, you're not the only one going through this. We can do it together. We can stand up. Don't run away from it. Run into it. And like, the lawn is more set thing. It's, you know, it's running into the fear that really makes someone successful. And it's kind of running away from it that just almost perpetuates it.

Mark, microphone drop there. I'm going to be dancing. I'm going to watch you on your video and I'm going to be dancing to Alanis Morissette.

Ladies, you both are incredible. Let me just say this. You're incredible. I didn't know what this was going to be about. I mean, I might, you know, when I got referred it, they kind of. But like, you're doing the work, man. You are helping people not feel alone. And I actually tell people the best gift you can give another human being is letting them know they're not alone. That is the best gift. And you guys are doing that to thousands, hopefully millions at one point. But I mean, you're doing beautiful work. And so as someone who used to feel alone, I know you're helping someone not feel that they listen to this right now. They listen to you on the regular. They're in their car. You're giving them that safe space and feeling heard. And that is.

Well, thank you, Mark, because it's others that have made me feel that way. And so I think it's just joining, joining in the chorus of voices out there that are trying to just figure out a way to, to do better, to be able to find peace and prosperity in our lives and worthiness. And thank you for the, for your energy. Mark. You are amazing. You are amazing.

I judge as much energy I could to a fairly serious conversation. But yeah, no, thanks for having me on, you know. You know, feel free to follow me on loan signing system. I have an Instagram handle. I share this. Even though I teach people how to make money, I teach people how to work through their limiting beliefs.

Yeah, your videos are great.

So if anybody needs any extra inspiration, follow me. Loan signing system. Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. And so, you know, my job is to help people and, and I wake up every single day with the goal of helping one human. And so if I did that, I've done my job for the day.

Well, you helped a lot today, Mark. Thank you.

Amazing. Thank you for having me on and Deuces.

See ya.

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