#12 - Legal Life in the NFL with Jill Kelley of the New York Jets

What does it take to run a high performing business? Strategy, finesse and a lot of advice from people who've been there, done that before. I'm Mario Carroll. Join me on my Pearls on Gloves off podcast to hear from the leaders building some of the most innovative companies today. We'll take a high value, no holds barred approach to find out what works. See you there.

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Pearls on Gloves Off. With me today is Jill Kelly, who has what can be considered a dream job for a lot of people out there. Jill is in her third year with the New York jets, that's right, the NFL team, and she is Vice President of Legal affairs there where she serves as the team's in house counsel and she's responsible for the team's legal functions. Kelly joined the club after a 15 year legal career with broad experience in tax, commercial and entertainment law. Prior to the Jets, Kelly was General Counsel of PointsBet USA where she was the lead counsel for all United States sports books, operations and strategic commercial development, working with professional sports leagues while overseeing corporate partnerships, sponsorship contracts and all regulatory compliance. Before that, she was senior Legal Counsel for one of the world's largest resort casino hotel properties. Jill began her career with PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2006, then moved to London based firm Withers as an international tax attorney. She's also served as an adjunct professor of law at the University of Connecticut School of Law and was recognized by NJ Biz magazine as one of their 2021 Leaders in Law. So excited to have you here today, Jill. Thank you for being with us.

Hi, good morning Mary. Nice to be here.

Well, I always tell you whenever you speak you draw a huge crowd because everyone is so excited to hear from someone who is the head of legal at a NFL team like the Jets. Were you always a Jets fan?

First of all, it's funny because when I was in law school or even growing up, I'll say I'm from New York, so I was a New York sports fan. Okay, There are multiple new yes, there are market, but a career in sports didn't occur to me even through the law school process. So it's been a kind of a long and protracted road here, but it's been a dream in some respects and it's pretty surreal. My third season and everything still feels very new.

So you fell into this. And yet, like I mentioned, it's probably the dream job of so many people coming up through the field. So that's really cool. Do you go to all the games? Is that Part of the role to be there.

Yeah, I can. I don't go to all of the away games because I got other obligations at home sometimes. But usually you'll find me at most of the home games. And then depending on how the season goes, maybe at a playoff game or two. But I don't want to jinx it yet. So.

So exciting. Great season. Do you go work at the stadium? I know some of the other sports teams are located in the stadiums, so.

We share MetLife Stadium with the New York Giants. And so our facility is in Florham Park, New Jersey. My office, where I'm located right now is actually in Florham park, and that is where the team is, and that's where they have practices. So we don't go to MetLife outside of events. We don't really go there until game day. It's nice to have that separation. Cause it's like when you drive in on Sunday morning, you're like, wow, it's. It's very fresh. It's not like I'm there every day, so it's nice.

That's true. So do you have a most memorable moment that you had in your experience working with jets that would make all the jets fans out there really jealous.

Oh, geez. I would just say this whole year has been that. So I started in February of 2020, and so I was only in the office for a couple weeks before COVID happened. So the first two seasons I was there. Well, the first season there was no fans. Those were very memorable games. But you would end up in an empty stadium where sound was being pumped in. Yeah. And there's no fans. But, you know, if you're watching it on tv, you. You would hear this crowd noise that was being pumped in through the broadcasts. That was very surreal because you felt like you were just at an empty stadium watching a practice. So this year it was really special because we did have fans last year as well. But this year was the year where I think people started to really kind of come back together and congregate and people were vaccinated, and there was more comfort around it. And so it's been just the joy of seeing everything we've gone through in the past few seasons and then just seeing the team really gel and they're having a great year. I think one of the most exciting things is getting to watch especially the younger players as they come in through the draft, and then you get to see them really finding their way, and you just get to know them on a different way that just Feels so much more personal. So, yeah, I can't think of one particular memory though. So they can just delete. They could just that part.

It must just be fun every day. I love it. Why don't you tell us what you do for the Jets? If there is such a thing as a typical day, what does that look like for you?

So I talk to a lot of lawyers and law students and people in the legal industry about what I do because there's a lot of mysticism around it. Each club has their own way of doing things because they're all franchises. So the way we're structured here though is I am the lawyer on mostly the business aspect of things. So the revenue generating things such as sponsorship agreements, suites, season ticket sales. I work with our multimedia teams working on broadcast agreements, social media content, all of our vendor deals. I do a lot with technology and data privacy issues. I work as our privacy officer as well. So I have to be across a lot of different things. But it's more the stuff that kind of makes the whole game come together. In terms of working with the players, it's very limited. I'm not coaching, so they don't really need to work with me that much. So I'm really just on the business side, kind of the engine that's keeping everything running. So the days are very diverse. But I would say that now that I've been here a couple seasons, you get to start seeing a rhythm. So, you know, in the spring you'll know the combine's coming up in March, so there's certain agreements that you're going to work on to prepare for that, then the draft, then the rookie camp. And so you start to find that rhythm. And I would say my busiest time of year would be August because that's where everybody who's been in draft or as lawyers, like, you know, people are going back and forth with different drafts. But now it's at the point where the season's about to start, so everybody wants everything done yesterday. So August can be a pretty intense month for lawyers in the NFL.

That's really cool. And you've been in the sports industry in some way for a while, you know, through different roles. Is that something you had planned on? And I guess another question is, is there anything you've noticed that maybe is different about the way the sports industry or team is run versus more traditional corporations or industries?

So sports was something that I worked in an ancillary way. So I was in entertainment positions where I was working with the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe, which owns Foxwoods Resort and working with a sports book. So sports obviously mattered there, but the sports were kind of on the side of all the technology and all the issues that we were focused on here. Everything comes down to what happens on Sunday, so everything is in preparation for that every week. I would say that the biggest difference is it's a very public facing love. It's a public facing role, but we're actually. We run much leaner than bigger legal. This is the smallest legal department I've worked in since going in house. I spent the first part of my career, as you'd mentioned, in law firms and accounting firms, so had that experience. But going in house. Each in house department I've been in has been a little bit different. They've been at different points in terms of whether they're a startup or they're well established with the NFL. We tend to run leaner in house because we also use the NFL front office as kind of like an extension of our legal department as well. So we have that support. And then the teams kind of help each other. The legal departments will run different scenarios or legal issues by each other and try to get that input. Yes, it can be a mom and pop organization behind the scenes much more than people realize.

Yeah. And let's talk about that for a moment. Cause I think when you and I first spoke, I was really surprised to hear how lean it really is. So tell our friends who are listening what the department looks like that you are running right now.

Yeah, well, the department looks like there is myself as the lawyer, and then we have an amazing paralegal slash contract manager, and it's the two of us. And then we'll kind of run through different legal interns or people that kind of come through and help for different projects. But that's really it. And because the jets and the Giants share a stadium, some of our stadium issues that other clubs may have to deal with, we don't have to as much because MetLife has their own general counsel as well. So. So he will handle certain things that are very stadium specific. And so then the jets can focus more on the franchise issues and the Giants can do that as well. So we're almost like a mini legal department with MetLife Stadium as well. But yet it's very, very lean.

So, yeah, let's let that sink in for a moment. It's literally you. I mean, you are the lawyer for the jets, and then you've got one person who's helping you out. But I don't know that Anyone would have expected the team to be that small. To me, it's not because of the lack of work you do. I mean, there's probably a ton of work. But at least when you and I have spoken in the past, you've thought very intentionally about kind of how to scale yourself and thinking intentionally about what resources to put in place for your future and to be able to manage it this leanly.

Right. The job of in house counsel is also evolving because there are more things to be across. Ten years ago there wasn't like a social media department and all of these different technologies to consider. So you're doing more with less. On the flip side of that, there's also so much better technology in order to automate certain for the low hanging fruit, things that are very transactional and tend to not diverge from one agreement to the other, like an NDA or like a suite license agreement in sports, they're pretty standard. So we can automate certain things. So even though I'm a department of two, we rely on contacts from the other departments. So I'll work with somebody who will be my point of contact from the sponsorship department or the sales department. And they also start to work with legal because they'll be the liaison, they'll give us the commercial terms. In some cases they're even doing some of the drafting. If we have like a. Using ironclad as the example, like a workflow, like a suite license agreement where they can just put the salient commercial terms in and create that contract. And as long as that language hasn't changed, I don't really even need to see it. So we end up being more creative in how we structure things because we're so lean. I should say we do have a lot of outside counsel for subject matter specialization. So litigation, it wouldn't make sense to have a big in house department for that. So I'd say I rely heavily on employment law, litigation, data privacy. Those are probably the three largest areas where outside counsel is where I'm in regular communications with. So even though I'm alone, I've got a really deep bench externally that helps. The first step would be I would talk to other lawyers within the NFL at different clubs and say, have you seen this issue? If it's an employment law issue and it's a state specific issue, you know, I'll look at people within the state of New York or New Jersey, depending on where it happens. And then from there I'll go to local council who knows the subject matter of that particular state. So you just have to know your resources. You have to know who's on the bench and just kind of be nimble and agile and creative. For sure.

Yeah. But you've been very thoughtful about what resources you're using for what and where. It makes sense to engage outside counsel, which is critically important for a group of your size, but also what you should be doing. What can you put some controls around and put technology in place so that your internal clients and partners can get business done on their own, as you're saying, but within the controls of legal language that is pre approved or they're not just running wild and making their own commercial terms.

Right. It's a work in progress. So the president of the New York jets is Jaime Elhai and he was the former general counsel. And so Jaime has been with the team for over 20 years. He's gone from a legal intern all the way to president. So it's a pretty inspirational story. I have a very different path, as you know. So it's interesting to compare our careers and show other lawyers that there's so many different ways to get to these levels. But because Jaime was in house and knows so much about football, he wanted someone that kind of could balance that with someone that knew stuff about taxation or data privacy or different aspects of the law. So we balance each other well in that sense. I had to spend the first season really looking at what are some of the legal issues, where are some of the blind spots that maybe Jaime and I both have because they don't occur to us. So the first year was really plus with the pandemic on top of it. You really got a sense of we had different vulnerabilities and things to consider that you had to really be creative. You know, how you were going to roll out a season remotely and modify every contract because you had to replace every asset for a corporate partnership or a season ticket holder. So it was a ton of just listening to what people needed and also just kind of getting a sense of, here are some vulnerabilities, here are some areas that I might be in over my head and I'm going to need some help and just figuring that out and just trying to keep pace with it all and not get overwhelmed.

Yeah. Does technology help you scale? I mean, would you likely be a bigger team if you hadn't thought about putting technology in place? And I asked that because there are a lot of really small departments of one or two people who think we're too small to need technology, we're too small to need tools. And so we're just going to keep working really hard and hiring more outside counsel and spending our budgets that way.

Yeah, I think it's the opposite. Every time you go to outside counsel, whether you have a long term relationship with them or not, you have to take some time to explain the context of the situation. Here are the facts of this particular situation, here's what we need and here's the outcome. So technology very much helps with being able to create those efficiencies because there's certain things where I know what I need to protect the club or the stadium or even the players. You start to know what's important and being able to just make sure that the right language is in there because I can get exhausted, especially in August when you're up and you're as clear headed as I want to be. I'm a human being. There'll be human error no matter what. So being able to automate certain things where I know that the language is going to be updated. We'll take a suite, for example. Someone from the suites department, this company wants a suite for the full next season. And I can make sure all the numbers are proper, everything's accurate, because it's also going to have a second set of eyes from that suite person as they're inputting the numbers. So the commercial terms, you know, I'll rely on them more to do, but I know the legal language is all going to be the same and it's not like I'm working from another template that I just downloaded from Word and now I have to make sure I changed all the name in the right places and all of that stuff that is the low hanging fruit, the devil's in the details. And that's the stuff that can take so much time. And because you're kind of doing it on autopilot, you go through the motions and you're not thinking about it as much. So you eliminate that room for human error. And you're certain that people are working on the current templates because templates can change during the season as the seasons go on. Especially last year, I would say the beginning of last year, we didn't know if we were going to have fan attendance because vaccines had just been released and people were starting to congregate. But no one knew what the variants were going to do. So we had to have a lot of language in our agreements that kind of anticipated that. And so if this is what happens, you're getting a suite, but you may not be able to get a suite. So here's how we're going to plan ahead. And so we spent a lot of time working with the different departments, planning what those contingencies were going to look like from a commercial perspective and then drafting that language. And then I knew everyone was working from the same thing.

Right.

But as the season went on and we knew we were going to be able to continue to have fans, we could pull back on some of that language. It just created so much more efficiency to use technology, to make sure we were using the right agreements and the right legal terms.

Yes. And trying to do that all manually. I mean, you could do that manually. And so many people say, you know, it's not broken, don't fix it. We've been doing it, storing it all in a drive folder or some cloud folder and then going and making all the changes one by one. But like you said, there's room for error. And the other thing that I love that you mentioned is the burnout piece. Right. Because it's a lot of work and the world is changing all the time and things come up and you don't know, or August, as you said, comes around and you get really, really busy. And I can imagine folks just trying to get through the volume and pushing through it, doing things the old manual way. It's got to really take a toll on people if you're not able to leverage some sort of automation or technology to help you.

Yeah. And as I mentioned, the things we're being asked to look at that is just growing exponentially. The NFL just expanded into international markets. So the New York jets, along with five other teams now have the UK as their international home market area. And there's different jurisdictions, there's Mexico, Canada, Germany, where different clubs could decide that they're going to create a presence. It's still in the works, so it's still organically growing. But because of that, now you have to consider US Data privacy. You also have to consider GDPR and European data privacy. And then you've got the UK and they just went through Brexit, so they're not even in gdpr. They have their own UK privacy rules. So you have to be across all of these different changes internationally. And so to ask the same amount of people to be doing the same amount of work, it's just maddening because there is that, like I said, the low hanging fruit. But then there's also the stuff that requires a lot of thought and how are we going to structure these contracts and our privacy policies and update everything? Everything I do now, I'm Thinking several years ahead.

Yeah.

Legal department to look like not for the 2023 season, but 2025, 2026, because things happen so quickly and months are just flying by. So you really want to kind of give yourself that Runway to say, okay, this is where we're getting. We're not there yet, but this is how we're growing.

And you got to start planning for it in advance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the legal issues that are going to come up, they don't exist yet. That's been something else that's happened is how quickly things change.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And the world and the regulatory issues, it's just everything gets more and more complex. And so the demand on legal departments and legal teams is growing. And you're exactly right that we can't expect the same number of people to do the increasing amount of work without some other strategy or resourcing. So what is the plan, as you think about the years ahead and the growing demand on you? Really, how are you going to continue to scale yourself?

They all have to do with technology. They all have to do with how we use data, how the club uses data, how the league uses data, how customers use data. And so there's software that's being created every day that I don't even know what it's going to look like yet or what it'll do. But I have to anticipate that because of that, I have to figure out how many things I can either delegate or that don't necessarily need a lawyer to be across all the time so that I can preserve, I can retain something, some of the mental space to focus on those issues as they come up and so that I can think more creatively and analytically about them. So each season I've been trying to automate more and more of our standard contracts. So we have a pretty solid cadence with suite agreements, NDAs, sponsorship. We're getting there. The thing about the sponsorship group is that the variation of assets that a sponsor could have, whether it's radio, tv, broadcast, stadium assets, social media assets, there's so much subjectivity in it, it's hard to have that standard contract language. But I do automate the bodies of the sponsorship agreements now, and I'll just customize the sponsorship assets. And I think that you work with a certain group of people that get comfortable with the software you're using, because when you come into an organization that's already been established and they've been doing things a certain way for a long time, you need to get that buy in. So if you can work with a few people who can advocate for you and say this has created so much more efficiency because now we can flip a suite agreement in the same day, then other people want to know about that. And we want to do that with employment agreements and other contracts, because there's no reason that they couldn't be automated. So the more we can do that, the more we can focus on all of the unknowns. And I think with lawyers, because we're taught about precedent and everything we do has to come from the past. But as we see, courts can change laws, social justice movements, pandemics, all of these things happen. And we need to be able to think more creatively than we ever have in the past. So being able to free up some of that space, I think lawyers should be excited because they get a chance to do the things that they probably went to law school for. They didn't go to law school. Probably just to do the same contract 18 times.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Critically about things. So being able to automate things gives people that opportunity to get back to the things that they're probably most passionate about.

Yeah, that's so great. And I love your perspective on staying on top of the changing landscape for technology even before you need it, because so many folks I talk to haven't looked at what tools and technology has come out to help their departments in years, until all of a sudden they're getting pressured to do this digital transformation. And they go, it's overwhelming. And I also.

Know if we really need anything, because it's almost like the idea of what's possible now through tech is so far and different from the manual way that it's hard for them to grasp what's possible. So I think that's really important.

Right. And you'll end up in an environment where you have different mindsets, too, where you have certain people that have been doing things the same way for a long time. You have other people who may be, for example, say, at the jets, you can have people that have come from a tech company, and so they're used to always being on the cutting edge of technology. And there are things that the NFL does that are incredibly innovative. It may not necessarily be legal contracts. So you get different perspectives. You get people doing things differently. You need to first listen, hear what people need, and then figure out how you can provide that in a way that's going to not tax yourself to the point of sheer exhaustion and human error. So it's kind of essential to think ahead. That's something that I think in this job more than any. A, just being so lean, but B, also the time I came in to the jets like before COVID started and the world is just changing so quickly. So it's a good time to be looking at these things that you're doing. Another thing that I think about when implementing efficiencies or softwares or processes is not just looking at the quick fix, because maybe there's something I can do that is just going to put a bandaid on this problem for now, for this season. Sometimes I have to do that. But in terms of contract management, I want to set things up for the long term to be successful. So I don't want to have to be upgrading and switching my software provider every season with a new vendor because we kind of outgrow the capability of that technology. So sometimes you end up working with companies where the technology is more than you probably need at that point, but it's because you're planning ahead and you know, like, okay, this is where we want to get and at some point we're going to use all of this and it's okay if we're not using it all right now. But whether it's a contract management company that uses AI or other more advanced things, like, it seems intimidating. But it's crazy if you think about even five years ago, the amount of technology we use that we've gotten comfortable with things like Zoom. You know, I didn't do videos before COVID so it's like now it's just second nature.

Right.

But there's things that we're going to get comfortable with, so we might as well just kind of lean into that as we're going through these adjustments.

Yeah. Finding a partner that can be future proof. I've done my fair share of ripping and replacing just because the tech change is so fast and perhaps the provider you're with wasn't changing as fast with the times. And so you're always trying to find the one that's going to be thinking about what's next and what can help you prepare for the next five, ten years. And so, yeah, you want to find a partner that's truly innovating with you and future proof. I love your mindset. I love your perspective and your approach to the way that you do your work. Let's take a pivot and talk about how you got here. Are there things in your career journey that have led you to this? It always makes more sense looking backwards. Of this is where I learned that technology was going to be important. This is where I learned to work, cross functionally with and change mindsets. Walk us through the early part of your career.

Before I went to law school, I was a volunteer teacher on the Navajo reservation out in Arizona and New Mexico. And I did a lot of work in international human rights law and indigenous human rights law and decided while I loved teaching, I wanted to be more of a policy person. It's just the stuff that inspired me and so decided to go to law school. Ended up working with tribes in a pro bono capacity for a long time and while I was in school learned that just like whether it's a sports club or a tech company or or an Indian tribe, the organization is going to know their own rules, their own regulations, but they're not going to know all of the more complex things like taxation or real estate. So it was finding the areas of law that I found most engaging to me and so working to master my craft through them. So I ended up focusing on international taxation. International because it was looking at treaties and how different communities kind of interacted with each other outside of the US And Indian law is actually very similar or because a lot of tribes have treaty based rights with the federal government. So was working as an international tax lawyer. Ended up living in Switzerland for a while, moved out to Denver, started working with incubators and accelerators in different companies that were helping invest in technology companies. That was when I was working for the London law firm Withers. I was able to support both the east and west coasts in terms of international tax issues and what these younger companies should be thinking about. Whether I wanted to or not. I learned a lot about tech companies and what their risks were and what their priorities were. And through that I was also working as a pro bono lawyer with tribes doing tax planning for an economic development for tribes. So it was a really unique background that a lot of people definitely don't. Didn't have such a dichotomy in what they were practicing. Yeah, it was interesting because I didn't get bored with either because they were so different and both were innovative and creative in different ways. So after about a decade in my career I was thinking, okay, I don't want to be a tax lawyer, even though that's what I've been doing. I was doing that to master the craft, to learn law. But I knew I wanted to go in house and I wanted to be more business oriented and be on the side of building something. So I ended up finally having an opportunity to Work in house for an Indian tribe. And that's how I ended up with the Mashantucket Pequots and going to Foxwoods there is where I really got into other highly regulated areas like data privacy, because they said, oh, well, you're a tax lawyer, so you must know a lot about regulations. So we're going to just focus on those things too. So data privacy, economic development outside of gaming, and then technology related to Igaming and online gaming. And just how in Indian country in America, there's the Indian Gaming Regulatory act, which allows tribes to use certain revenues from gaming to create essentially their tax basis to create public services for their community. But the landscape of people in America and technology has changed so much. So people aren't necessarily going to a casino to play with a slot. There's still that demand, but they're going to the casino maybe to see concerts or to go to a water park or to do different things that aren't just gaming. And some of the gaming stuff has been replaced by the technology and people playing slots or poker or whatever on their phones instead. So there is this evolution happening in the gaming industry. And using my background with technology and working with these tech companies, it was kind of fortuitous to be able to kind of meld those two worlds. So I did that for a while. And it was the same with Points Bet. That was just kind of like going in house for a tech company. Even though it was sports Betty, not a gambler, I was really just focused on what's the technology, what are the regulations around it. And it was fascinating because PASPA had just been overturned, which was the law that prohibited sports betting in America. So once that became legal, you now had these states that were trying to implement their regulations around them. It was the Wild west again, and it was still happening. I think only half the states have legalized sports betting. So you're creating new technology with a new regulatory framework and it's all innovative stuff. And so you do have to be creative and especially for a tech company, slash sports betting company like Points, but that's going to be scrutinized from a regulatory perspective. So that was interesting. And then, you know, I was working with sports lawyers because of that experience, and someone had suggested, why don't you work for a club? And I said, that would be amazing, but they would never be interested. I have no experience working in any sports league. And so you learn through. Well, I mean, I learned through those experiences that if you do work that you're passionate about, you're going to scratch an itch for like club or an organization or a company has. You don't know what it's going to be. But that's kind of the fascinating part of it. So, for example, if I was a real estate lawyer, maybe in the jets were building a stadium, they would have wanted someone that had a lot of real estate experience.

Right?

Because I had this experience, it became useful because the things that the NFL was now looking at were sports betting and technology and data privacy and how we're using data. So it just happened that the things that I was interested in dovetailed with what the team needed. So that's one thing I think people want to go in house, be like, I just want to work for this company again. Think a few years down the road, do you want to be in house doing real estate if you have no passion about it, or employment law if you have no passion about it? So find the thing that motivates you as a lawyer. Master your craft in that and let people know that that's your interest. Because there's going to come a team or an organization that needs somebody that knows that area and has that expertise. So that's kind of how it worked out for me. And if I look back, it's like, okay, this all makes sense. The technology, the gaming law, working for sports betting. Like, you can see how this long and protracted road here that, you know. But I wouldn't recommend that for anybody.

No. Rare paths always make sense looking backwards. But when you're in it and you're thinking about your next move, it's not always that obvious. So how did you come across the Jets? Did you know someone? Was it a recruiter? Like, how did you actually get introduced?

Yeah, it was one of our sports lawyers who was outside counsel, had said, you know, I think because she was representing the jets, she may have known that Jaime, who was becoming the president, was going to be promoted and there was going to be a need in the near future in that role. So she had sent me an email and said, if you'd ever be interested, you know, send me your resume. But the jets went through a recruiter, and there were multiple months and phases of it, and I think there was different candidates with different backgrounds, and it just came down to who's going to be a good cultural fit and who has the subject matter expertise that we need right now. Yeah, you know, it was just the stars aligning and someone knowing what my interest was, and here I am.

Yeah, it's so great. And having the privilege of Speaking to so many folks like you in these great roles and GCs of different types of companies, Some of the patterns that I've noticed that you have as well is that the diversity of experience in your career trajectory and being very intentional about wanting to try new things. You started in tax, and you started to do all different types of areas of law and touching different industries and sizes of companies and makeups and cultures of organizations. And that just sets you up to go into an organization and be prepared for anything that comes your way, whether it is a new regulation or a pandemic or whatever scale and growth is coming. You've had the background and the experience in so many different areas that you can now apply that to conquering your current role.

I was very nervous going through the interview process with the jets because I hadn't worked as a sports lawyer before, and I had friends and people remind me that you're capable of finding out the answers. You've done that before, whether it was sports betting or technology, and rules change. So you start learning as your career goes on, once you've learned how to practice the law, that really what people want is somebody that they trust and interpersonal relationships and how much that matters. Because it's very rare that someone wants me to be able to give them an answer on the spot. You just have to be capable of using your network, using the resources out there to find the answer. But they want to know that they can trust you, that you're going to go and you're going to be diligent about finding the answer, and you're going to ask the right questions, agreement, and understand what their priorities are, what's keeping them up at night. So the relationships that you build matter so much more. There's a lot of lawyers out there, and there's a lot of people that could find the answers that the vendor or somebody needs. But it's about how you're communicating, what you're communicating, and those relationships you're building. And that ability to trust somebody matters so much. So I found that that is something that I didn't learn in law school, that I wish I did, is how much relationships matter. I think working in different environments, whether it an Indian country or Switzerland or for a tech company, you learn to speak to different audiences. And that happens in house, where you're going to talk to the tech department and you're going to use their language and their terminology and their jargon, and that's going to be different than the finance department. And as a tax lawyer, I could Speak about the Internal Revenue Code and GAAP accounting and things like that. But the more you can kind of make those connections humanly and connect with somebody and understand their language and understand what drives them, they feel valued, and it ends up becoming a more meaningful and trusting relationship.

That's so true. And, you know, my background is legal operations. And so much of what Legal Ops does is work cross functionally and kind of be the communication liaison between legal and other parts of the organization, whether it is sales, finance, hr, it, what have you. And we often play the role of translator because not a lot of lawyers have. I hate to beat up on lawyers, but that skill of being able to put themselves in the other party's shoes and to think about how can we work together collaboratively. And if you are a lawyer and you can do that, as you've just articulated, that just makes you so much more valuable to the organization in being able to work and be a partner and be seen as a true business partner and strategic versus the order taker or just trying to get stuff done to support the rest of the organization. So I think you're right. That is such a critical skill.

Right. And it has an exponential benefit to the company. Because if I've learned to translate the priorities and the risks and the fears of one department to another and build a bridge in that way, then it creates more unification in the organization as a whole. So I can look at something like maybe we're looking at a new sponsorship relationship and they're looking at, say, a technology provider as a sponsor and building the relationship with the IT department to see is there a need for the technology that this vendor has? Or we could kind of make sure that the interests are aligned. All of that stuff's really important. So it becomes valuable both from the bottom line of the organization and just relationship building.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, as we wrap up here, just kind of last thoughts. What's next for you and the team? What's kind of on your mind that you're trying to accomplish either now or in the next couple of months?

Yeah, well, right now this is being recorded in early December, so, you know, the jets are still playoff contenders. Don't want to jinx anything, but there might be an extension of what would be the regular season. So that would change up the cadence because we'd have to look at certain contracts and extend certain deals that we wouldn't do during the regular season. So right now it's just week to week going through what's front, keeping our fingers crossed, and then there'll be regardless of what happens in playoffs. February is usually a time in the NFL after the super bowl for everybody to just decompress and then it starts right back up with the combine and scouts and different people that hit the road and they're visiting universities. There really isn't much of a downtime. It's all that behind the scenes stuff. So we'll start planning, we'll update in the off season, late February, early March. We'll update our templates for the next upcoming NFL season. Update language, update things that we've learned we wanted to tweak, feedback we've gotten from vendors about certain positions we've taken. That's the time where we kind of make notes throughout the whole season to come back to this in the off season and let's talk about it as an organization. So we'll make those kind of changes. So it'll be a quick winter in terms of reflecting and updating and then onto the draft and the whole new season.

So exciting. Well, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. My husband is from New York, so we will be rooting for the jets and we hope the best for you and your organization.

Thanks Mary.

Great chatting with you.

You too.

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