#33 - Legal Ops Is Not a Service Org! With Shiela Dusseau, Head of Legal Ops, Ferring Pharma

Hello and welcome to Pearls on Gloves Off. I'm your host, Marielle Carroll, and today my guest is Sheila Dusso. With a career journey spanning finance, manufacturing operations and legal ops, Sheila joined behring pharmaceuticals in 2019 as her head of global legal operations in Switzerland.

Yes.

Despite her charming southern accent, Sheila Dussaud relocated her entire family to Switzerland, where she collaborates with Fairing's chief Legal officer to establish and fortify their legalOps function. Borrowing on learnings from her prior tenure of a decade heading up legal Ops at NCR Corporation, having previously held significant roles as cfo, controller and operations Executive across international enterprises, Sheila's transition to legal ops was driven by enthusiasm for fresh challenges and growth. This was a great conversation where we go deep into the challenges of the role that I know many of you can relate to. And for the in house counsel and GCs listening, there are a lot of great learnings on how to best work with your legal ops team. I personally took a lot away from this valuable discussion and I hope you will too.

Welcome, Sheila. It is so great to have you on the show.

Well, thank you. It's really great to be here. Quite humbling, a little bit nerve wracking, but I'm super excited about it. Oh, gosh, no.

Super excited for this conversation. You know, a lot of people always ask me how I pick my guests, and honestly, I think it just happens to be when I'm having a conversation with someone in real life and we stumble onto a topic and then we have that moment where we say, oh my God, have to have you on the podcast so we can talk about this publicly. And that's exactly how it happened with you and I when I saw you in London earlier this year. And I will get into what we were talking about, but first I have to rewind to that moment because there you were looking all professional and great at this conference. You told me your flight was delayed, they lost your luggage and like you had no clothes, no toiletries, nothing.

Yeah, yeah, I, I do remember that distinctly. I had not been able to brush my hair. I, I think I was going on something like 40 hours since the last time. A brush that touched it. So I was super self conscious and. And you were super kind about it. But. But yeah, I had, I think it took 18 hours to get from Geneva to London. The crazy marathon trip. Four different planes, three airlines, and standing in the baggage claim area at one in the morning, realizing my suitcase just wasn't gonna come.

And then the conference was the next morning.

Yeah, the conference was next Morning. And I was to be on stage, I think, twice. And then, and then saw you and yeah, it was quite, quite out of sorts, but it was great to see a friendly face and be able to catch up and not feel like it was that big of a deal.

Well, you, you somehow managed to get clothes and toiletries, so well done. That is my worst nightmare. And for that reason, I will never check a bag. I trust nobody.

Yeah, my mind may have been changed after that trip, that's for sure.

Okay, so there we were in London, and I know your background is super impressive. You're also not a lawyer. You had a finance background and in fact, many years of executive level finance experience before you took on this Legal Ops role at NCR and now at Fairing. But we were saying that to this day it's still so hard to get people to understand what Legal Ops really is. And I know that you had some experiences with that. Tell me how it's been trying to get people to try to understand what you do.

Well, it's. It's so funny. I forgot that was a topic that we were going to talk about today because I had a call earlier today with someone in our leadership program, not within the legal team, and they wanted to hear more about my position and some of the challenges. And one of the things that they said was that they didn't really understand my position and what Legal Ops was, but that they also were getting feedback from others and other functions about the same thing and how they'd like to understand further. And so we started talking about that and I think I started telling probably the same story that you and I talked about and just kind of how crazy it is when you really sit back and you think about a Legal Ops role, especially the heads of Legal Ops, and how different that role is from so many others in the fact that it's not well defined. You don't have a list of responsibility and tasks that every day you go, okay, this is what I'm doing. I'm staying in my lane and doing this. And, and you're constantly changing hats. And then when you take that and you pit it up against people that do have well defined roles and know what they need to do each day, you know, of course, you know, new things will pop up and people will pop in and kind of throw you for a loop, but they generally know what they're supposed to be doing sort of and can kind of go down that path. And then there's, you know, somehow you intersect with that person, then it becomes really Interesting. And that's where I realized in my legal ops career where there's a lot of potential for a lot of bumps, but then also potential for really helping yourself and the team with the communication and how you help someone understand, even when they don't even ask the question or don't even realize it, that it's so different, you know, and they, you just run into those issues and errors. So yeah, it's a super interesting topic and it's one that I think just happens over and over in the legal ops person's, you know, career.

Yeah, my theory, and you know, you said we don't have a specific lane. We're actually by definition like in everybody else's lanes. And being a change agent, right, you gotta get into everyone's business. So there's constantly like this, why are you here and why are we talking about this? What is your role? Right. And I think we'll talk about kind of the other stakeholders. But within legal, my experience has been if you haven't come from another organization that's had this role, and so it's like a very new concept to you and everywhere else in a legal sort of practice environment, I'm talking about mostly law firms. Everyone who's not a lawyer or doesn't have a practicing lawyer role is in support of those lawyers. So you have paralegals, you have legal assistants, you have contracts managers. They're all there to support the lawyer. So then you go in house and it is still the same situation. Everyone who's not a lawyer is there to support them. Then you have this kind of odd legal ops role who's not a lawyer sometimes. And they're not, they're necessarily there to support you. They're, they're sometimes viewed as a peer or a change agent or part of the leadership team. And there's this whole like, yeah, what are you and why are you here exactly?

Unfortunately, it can put people on the defensive, it can make people territorial and it can make people that, that ugly, green headed, green eyed monster jealous, you know, of what they think something is with your role. Even though might not be the reality. And it's always such a challenge. And in 15 years doing this, I've just seen it happen over and be a challenge. You know, working through that and working through how you overcome it is kind of fun. And that's one of the things I've been working on lately is how do we kind of break down those barriers and how do we get that communication out and then what's the outcome of It. And how does that work? But. But yeah, you're right in that. That word support. That. That's a hot button for me. It's actually one that I've been working with my team to try to get away from, you know, and because we hear it a lot like you just said, you know, especially lawyers, it's natural to them to think of others within the legal organization, whether it's in house or at a law firm, as a support function. And I hear several times a week, you know, yeah, you're here to support me or your organization. How are you going to support me on this? And what are you going to do for us on this? And I coach my team. You know, let's take the word support out, even when we're talking about ourselves, you know, let's talk about our partners and collaborating and facilitating and working with. Yeah, there's a lot around that. It creates a lot of challenges, but also opportunities.

What kind of opportunities?

So one of the big things I'm trying to do right now, and it's around that whole others not understanding our role, is get more people involved in what we are doing, kind of, you know, pull back the curtain, be transparent about what me and my team are working on and what's the list look like, and then turn that challenge of others not understanding what we're doing into an opportunity to collaborate. And so one of the example that you and I were talking about, one of the prime ones in London, was the frustration over one of our leadership team members that I had to work with in one of my legal ops roles and how they got really upset with me one day because the general counsel came to them about something that I had updated them on. And they were like, why did you tell them about this? You know, why did you give them an update before I got a chance to. And. And they were so obsessed. I mean, their face was red. She looked like she was on the verge of tears. And it wasn't so much that she wasn't ready to talk to the update, but she felt like her toes had been stepped on and that. That I had stepped in her area. And after kind of figuring out, you know, kind of going back and forth with her for a little while and then finally figuring out, wait a minute, she doesn't understand my rule. She doesn't understand that I'm accountable to the general counsel in a lot of different ways, you know, on a lot of different projects and tasks. And one of them happened to overlap with what she was doing. And so he asked me about it. It's one of my responsibilities. And I mean, I just Is a responsibility coming at it a different angle than what she's supposed to do. And, you know, and I can't just go, boss, I'm sorry, I can't talk to you about that. I can't give you an update. That's so and so's area. And so explain that to her. And then I just looked at her and said, do you. Do you know what I do, like, other than when I work with you on this one project, do you know, like, what all my other responsibilities are? And she's like.

I kind of didn't think there were really others. You know, she's like, I guess when we talk about it, you know, when it's said out loud, it kind of feels silly. You must have other stuff you have to do. And so I kind of just went down the list and I said, and that's just what I'm working on right now. You know, that doesn't include that every hour, every day, when something new pops up or when somebody else brings something up. And then I saw the light bulb go on, and I saw the, oh, my gosh, okay. You know, I'm not the only person that she works with. I'm not the only one yet taking the time. But then also, the beautiful thing in that opportunity I was talking about is I saw a little bit of respect there, too. I saw that. That shift a little bit to where you're not a service provider, you're not just supporting me on this project. You actually have other things you can do and are doing and some interesting things. And then over time, I've shifted that challenge to an opportunity to collaborate more and get her to sort of treat me more as a peer and collaborate a lot more in the projects we're working on. And so now we've got this shared ownership and accountability for things. A couple of, like, the really good opportunities that come out of clarifying this come out of recognizing that challenge and recognizing where it can make someone red in the face that they're so upset.

Yeah, yeah. I had so many of the same experiences. And, you know, especially if you work for a larger organization and people are so siloed in their practice areas that if you're working really deeply with one group on some initiative, the other teams don't necessarily have any idea what's going on and what you're working on. So it's. It is kind of a black box in some ways. And, you know, I've always thought we need to do a better job of defining our roles and marketing ourselves and managing up and letting the leadership team know exactly, like you said, have that moment where they have that realization of, oh, wow, you do so much more than, like, the little bit that I interact with you. I mean, there's some teams that all we did for them was manage outside counsel, you know, billing and expenses. So we were sort of like the billing team, where, yeah, behind the scenes, there was like, 50 other initiatives and projects going on, but they weren't part of those because they, you know, we're a smaller team, but it is really hard. And it's a constant sort of upward battle. And there's always new people showing up and they're like, yeah, again, like, who are you? What do you do?

Exactly. Exactly. When the person was asking me that today, I thought, oh, my gosh, I. I already did this. I already sat down and did a lunch and learned with the team and talked about what Legal Ops is and all that. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, actually, that was a couple years ago, and there's all sorts of new people. So, yeah, we have to remind that. Remind ourselves of that and remind others that. The other thing is, I was thinking about it earlier and reflecting on the conversation with you and then on the conversation with a person earlier outside of the organization, and I thought, you know, what the heck? Why are we not more transparent to the rest of the organization, to the legal team?

You know, part of it, I think from my experience and the teams that I've worked with, the Legal Ops people I've worked with, has just been that sort of pride of ownership and that we're the. We're the experts in this really weird mix of skills that we have and projects that we do. So we kind of keep it close to the vents, and we just keep our heads down and keep working on things. And sometimes I think that's our own worst enemy, because situations happen, like, happen with this one leadership team member where they just don't have that visibility. Like you said, the silos. And if we don't get above the silos as a legal ops team and start kind of shouting out what we're doing, then this is all just going to keep on happening. And then the beauty of doing that could be that we get much more ownership and accountability from the others that aren't on Legal Ops on these things. And then also we get help prioritizing. And so I've been thinking about that this afternoon and just sitting down with our leadership team and just being really transparent on, hey, here's the list. The list is like 40, 50 projects long. It's crazy. But this is the kind of things we're working on. And guess what? If you look, there's projects in every single one of your areas, and maybe you're not even aware of them because someone on your team came to us, or so on and so on, but then the next thing would be, you know, help me prioritize this.

You know, you take a look at.

This and tell me, you know, tell me what. How important it is. And especially for the business, and especially in our legal services model, where we're really seeking to make sure we're putting the right work in the right place and optimizing organization. So, yes, I've just been thinking about that, about how we can change this gray area around what our roles are, what we're doing, you know, that lack of clarity and take that and turn it into an advantage for us. So that's next on my agenda. Go to my CEO and say, yeah, I love. Can we get together, get the LT together for a special meeting to talk about Legal Ops?

Like, who. So who do you have that conversation with?

Your.

Your GC or the leadership team? Did you just say your CEO?

Maybe even my clo? Yeah, clo. No, no. Even though he's really close and very interested in legal ops and what we do. But yeah, no, I think I'm going to suggest that we do something like that in January, start off the year as an entire CLO team. I hear about them every single month, every time we meet in person, I hear about what each of them are doing there in their areas. And usually my updates are just about the project of the moment. You know, maybe the one that's got the most criticality or maybe is coming really to fruition at that time when we're talking. But that's it. And it, again, perpetuates this whole thing of we're only working on one thing or two things that it's not. So, yeah, I think at the beginning of the year is a good time to just make sure we're all working in the right direction. You know, I. I could be working on and prioritizing projects that just aren't really aligning with the team. And so we should do that alignment from time to time anyways.

Yeah, I do. I think it's a great time of year either while you're doing annual planning or at the beginning of the year and then have, like, whether it's a quarterly or Half year, check in with the leadership team and the CLO to say, here are my 45 initiatives. I'm focusing, you know, on the top five of them that I think have the greatest impact. Does that resonate with you? Are there things not on this list? Are there things that you look at these five and you nod and these are the right things just to, again, like you said, make sure that they're aware and they're aligned as you go forward.

Yeah, yeah. And true partnerships. I mean, candidly, one of the things I hear is sometimes they feel left out, you know, part of projects that impact them or their areas or feel like they're made aware of it too late. And, yeah, that may be the case sometimes. You know, we're not always perfect and on our toes when we do these things. But the other part of it is, I think so many times we start initiatives and projects, and they're not even projects or initiatives. We just take the initiative about something. You know, we look at something and see a way to help and improve, and we dive in. And then when it kind of. We kind of come up for air and it starts to crystallize, that's when we start communicating about it. And so I think if we instead look at that project list at the beginning of the year, get them involved in it, get them to where they know early on, then also they get a part of it and they feel part of it. So it'll help with relationships as well.

Yeah, yeah. It is a tricky role. I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened to you. I remember with my GC or clo, there were certain things where he would pull me aside and say, hey, you know, I think we could do better on XYZ on that team. Or can you kind of look at. See what those metrics are on this team? And you're, you know, you're put in a very interesting position because you want to involve us, that practice group and their lawyers. But you're also, you know, it's. We're becoming a change agent. We're looking into things. Are there processes that could be better? And by, you know, implicating that, it's putting people on the defensive, like you said. So how do you balance, like, making them feel like they're part of the evaluation but not that they're being, you know, scrutinized? It's so tricky.

Exactly. Exactly. I was thinking earlier about that and talking with somebody about this whole balance of getting them involved early but not too early, to where, you know, they're just overwhelmed. And then I was thinking exactly of that situation you just said, when your DC comes to you and says, hey, will you just look into this? Or will you check or just, you know, reach in and do this or that. You can't exactly go to that person and go, hey, I'm checking on your X, Y, Z, or I'm looking into this. You may be perfectly fine about it, but, yeah, it's definitely a delicate dance and it's difficult.

And sure enough, they hear about it then too, that, you know, Sheila or Mary's looking into XYZ on your team, and then they get all upset and you say, oh, is my gc? And then, why are you talking to GC about me?

That's very tricky. So I'm so glad to hear. Hear the same things happen. Yeah.

Because, you know, we're. We're a peer, but it's a challenging role. So one of the things I'm thinking about, I'd love to know your opinion is as we try to coach and train and educate GCs on how to be supportive, how to put Legal Ops in the right light amongst the rest of the leadership team so that Legal Ops is seen as a peer, seen as a positive change agent, what advice can we give them other than being supportive? Is there something more about being transparent, about telling their own teams where we're going to be playing in their sandboxes or. I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

So I've had six GCs in 15 years. So I'm sitting here going back through as you're saying that and trying to think if someone kind of did it well and what set them apart. My current GC is probably the most by far supportive and Legal Ops that I've ever had. And. Well, actually, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say supportive. Um, he's probably the most Legal Ops kind of GC I've ever had. Meaning perfect partner, Innovative, wants to do all the things that we want to do, where he and I, you know, think the same thing almost all the time, kind of read each other's minds and all that. So it's a great synergy. But then, yeah, the question of what can they do to help others, you know, feel the same way and come along the same path. And the Legal Ops vision that me and my team have aligns 100% with the legal services vision my DC has. So it's the same goal in the end. So how do we get others to feel that way and feel like Legal Ops is helping them and propping them up on that. Collaborating rather than stepping on their toes or diving into their areas. So I think back on GC's, okay, so I had one who is a fantastic woman leader and she's GC of Fortune 50 Co. Now, I think, and doing fabulous. She was a command and control. And so by her command and control, and some of it was a bit fear driven, others within the organization came to know that Legal Ops was important and respected, but I tell no, that's the best way to do it. So then thinking of another one. So yeah, it was probably the one who actually was a former LT member who was the least supportive of Legal Ops and then became a general counsel over time. I think over that time, you know, he and I, oh gosh it, we, we didn't butt heads when he first became general counsel because we butt heads back when he was our. On our leadership team and he was a colleague. And then I think by the time he became general counsel, I was like, all right, we're just going to have to try to coexist. And that's about it. And then about six to nine months in his role, he finally had that light bulb go on and was. And he came to me and said, I need you. I absolutely need you. And so it was wonderful from there. And because of that, I think that really motivated him to get his LT members to think and feel the same way. In our leadership team meetings, he frequently made sure that I was very much a part of the meetings. Not just the one person in the room who speaks the least, the one person in the room who has the least updates or maybe even sometimes gets skipped on updates because all of the head lawyers updates were, you know, they were business critical. They were super complex stuff. And you know, hey Sheila, if you don't mind, we'll get to yours next time. So he instead took the pain to make me very included in the meetings. And looking back now, I think it was probably very intentional once he sort of had that change of heart because I do recall him turning and saying, what do you think of that, Sheila? Have you encountered that before? Is there. Do you think there's another way that we could solve that problem? You know, just all these different sort of provocative and inviting, engaging questions to where the leadership team little by little started doing that more themselves in these meetings and coming to me outside the meetings. So I think it was really him and in front of the LT demonstrating that I was like this trusted partner and not just trusted partner, but I actually could help with things. And I actually had some good ideas. And I remember how much fun it was then to be in his meetings. I felt like I was contributing and had a role. And I don't remember what it was, but he did assign me a role in each meeting, something that he wanted me to make sure I handled and updated. So I always had some sort of role to play. Eventually we got to where we had a seat at a table. We were literally going to executive committee meetings. We were going to some of the C suite meetings to share, you know, business operations updates that we were seeing from the legal side. So we were able to talk about legal spend and different practice areas and trends we were seeing at different locations, stuff like that. But yeah, when I reflect back, he's probably the one that did it right. And you know, maybe that's a, it's a simple thing including me in the meetings, not just letting me be there, but, you know, really engaging me. And then, you know, maybe that's something else that other GCs can do and do in, in any way that they can. So if they don't have these regular meetings than just hallway conversations and emails and stuff like that. The fabulous partnership that my current GC gives.

Yeah, you touched on a couple things that I think are super interesting. And I don't think I even realized how many legal leadership teams you've been on under so many different general counsels. You actually have really interesting perspective on the culture that they can set and the tone at the top can work under.

Being a peer at the leadership team. That is a theme that has come up over and over, particularly with the legal ops execs at larger enterprise companies where, you know, there's a large set of practice group leaders, attorneys, and we are often, if not always, the only person who is not an attorney managing a practice group at that table. And so it is that same feeling that others are struggling with, which is I have the seat at the table, I'm at the leadership team meeting. I am, you know, on an org structure appear to all these folks, but I don't feel like I am or I feel like I'm always trying to, you know, figure out how to prove that I am up here or at least, you know, be seen as one versus again that the non lawyer in the room, the support in the room, you're just here to listen and support everything that's going on. So I love that you're one of your general counselors, really made it a point to make you feel like you had that seat and that you were. And made it very clear to the others that you were up here. That is critically important. And then the other thing is, even with your current gc, you mentioned having a believer, you know, in the role and really someone who understands it and being a true partner. The other theme that's come up and that I've been doing a lot of thinking about, I think I might do some writing on this topic is a lot of general counsels, you know, believe in legal ops, and they go through this whole figuring out what it is. How do I scope the role, how do I find someone at the right level, how do I bring them in? And then they do do it right. They bring them in at the leadership team table, and they kind of mentally go, all right, you know, I did my job. I can. I can relax and sit back now, because I put that person in place, and I'm going to empower them to be at this table, and they should just do their thing. Yeah, but it's very different, right, from being a partner and being involved in caring what those projects and initiatives are and rolling up your sleeves to, you know, to some extent, to understand what. What are the challenges? What are the opportunities? Like, how is this going? How is that business partner working with you? Oh, you're having trouble with one of my practice group leaders. Let's talk about that. Versus just being like Sheila. You know, this is what I want you to work on, or you're working on that.

Great.

Keep up the good work. Set it and forget it. You know, it's in motion. Really. Being a partner makes a true difference.

Yeah. And it's so cool. It actually even goes beyond a little bit what you just described. And sort of the. The best part of it, it goes into somebody else to bounce ideas off of and somebody else to actually come with the ideas. And so I love that as legal ops, we've all got all this pressure on us to perform. We've got. We've got all this pressure on us to live up to whatever image that someone that GC has in mind and all the other practice leaders have in mind, and it's always different. And they were trying to do a lot of things and please a lot of people and trying to figure out at the same time what would make them happy. But when you've got a GC that aligns really well with you and defines a strategy really well and then comes to you from time to time and says, oh, I heard about this, you know, happening, what do you think of that? You know, and about half the time, I'm like, well, I've kind of heard about it a little bit, too, but I don't know enough about it. Let me go figure it out. But then it's fine. You've got somebody who, you know, pushes you and challenges you and helps you be innovative and think broadly. And, yeah, it's really cool. And it's super fun to have somebody.

Like that and brings you into the conversation.

Right.

Like, they might be talking to someone and say, well, you know, Joanne, let's actually pause this conversation because I want to make sure Sheila's part of it. So let's, you know, bring her in and table this for now. Yeah, it's really key making sure that you're part of the initial conversation and not coming in kind of after the fact, too.

Absolutely, absolutely. And then key there, too. Just thinking of earlier on, without this GC and how one can set you up for success versus a challenge is making sure that you're not only brought in on the conversation, but you're brought in for the right reasons. And you. And the practice leader knows this. So, like your example earlier, so the practice leader's not thinking, oh, they're coming in to look over my shoulder and make sure I don't do something stupid or, you know, check and report back or whatever, you know, telling them, you know, camp, bringing them in because they can contribute this way, they can help us and contribute that way. That works so well. And that. That's something I've seen, like, it changed behavior when you start having a conversation like that and you talk about it like you're all a part of a team and it's not somebody parachuting in and kind of either save the day or, you know, screw you over. Yeah.

Or. Or even the opposite.

Right.

Setting the tone that, hey, we have a thousand initiatives and we only have one Sheila, but I'm going to give her to your team to make your team's life better and to give you the tech. Right.

But.

But it's. It's setting you up. Like, it's almost a gift. Like, if Sheila's, you know, going to come work with your team, it's a benefit. It's a. We're making you a priority. I'm giving you the gift of her team. And everyone else should be jealous because we're making your team a priority.

Right.

Versus we're going to scrutinize you and something is wrong here.

Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, yeah, that's the perfect state that we would want to be at and that people are scrambling for that help and that it's not coming from that support way of thinking. Yeah, I still have people come to me and go, so when is your team going to take the work from my team? Yeah. Or when are you going to work for me on this or handle this for me? And again it's a. There's still no matter how many times you say it or what you go through, there's still all that that follow fallback thinking to support functions. Yeah. It would be beautiful if the GC was able to state things that way and people really embrace it as a gift to have legal ops coming and helping them. And we do have some that do that. I, I have to share you were saying that earlier about Sheila and and so on one of our groups when, when this conversation happened or whatever they end project, the Sheila Project for the first like year that they were doing this project and it was an idea that I had come up with, I had mentioned to the gc. Then he went back and mentioned it to that leadership team member and they loved it. And so they sent me meeting invite and said we want to talk to you about what we're calling the Sheila Project now.

Love it, love it.

So, yeah, so. And that's a great supporter too that that one person is. So yeah, it's a good example of what you were describing there and how that can turn out, you know, when you do have that right partnership and support at the gc.

But that's, you know, that's sort of the ideal situation and that's, you know what I try to get out there to coach GCS on as they're thinking about how to structure this role. But in reality it's not what everybody walks into. And I'm sure amongst your many experiences with different GCs, there's different ways of doing it and there's going to be some that are much more hands off. You know, I think that it's still possible to be successful. Jen McCarron and I talk about this all the time. There is like the ideal setup and then there's the reality and you know, it's not always going to be the perfect. Making sure that you have a seat and making sure that you're feeling heard and that you're at the right level. Sometimes you're not direct to the gc, sometimes you're not viewed as a peer. But it's still, I think there's still things that we can do in our roles to establish ourselves. I'll say sort of Lead without authority. Right. To influence folks, to make things happen. Have you had that experience? And you know, do you think you can still be successful?

Yeah, absolutely. And it is. You're talking through. And I think I go through all of that stuff all the time. It's, it's never, you know, okay, I've reached this perfect state. I've got the perfect GC of any of that because it just, it, it shifts and changes. And like you said, as people come and go, as personalities change, as people's roles and goals and objectives change, they're suddenly more importance or less importance for working with me and my team. And yeah, I've had the experiences. I've also worked with others who've had those experiences where they weren't elevated to that role in that level and they had to struggle and really fight to be able to be heard or to just get any recognition other than being in the support thing. And the one thing that has worked for me and that I tell my team, because we go through this in little microcosms all the time, is just do the right thing. You know, a hundred percent of the time, just do what you know is right, keep your head down, keep working, keep the relationship building, and eventually it's going to work out and you're going to get the project done, you're going to get the task completed, you're going to get the E Billing system implemented, and people are going to be able to then, you know, kind of lift their heads up and look around and go, wow, you know, that Legal Ops person accomplished this. They got it done and they did it well. And they were true to themselves and, you know that. True to Legal Ops, you know, just wanting to be a part of the solution and help. And I've seen it work really well over and doing that. And the reason I tell people this all the time is because I've seen it work the wrong way myself. And I've seen where you take your eyes off of the priority, stop doing the right thing, and instead you try to fight with somebody or you try to argue why it's the right thing, or, you know, or try to take on the politics or try to do other things as well, and it doesn't go well. You know, it, it never does when you're trying to fight the system and you're trying to fight the red tape and bureaucracy and whatever else you want to call it, but instead, if you kind of keep your goals in mind, you keep marching forward one foot from the other, do the right thing, work on the relationships, it'll work. And I've seen people that come in, like you said, at that level of legal ops where they're not reporting directly to the GC when they do this, they keep their heads down and they keep on working. And when I say right thing, I don't mean, you know, just ethically or anything like that. It's. If you're told to implement any billing system, implement a billing system, but also see what else you can do to make it even better than what the expectation was. Add one more thing to it, improved processes around it as you're implementing, make sure that you also look at the ins and outs of it, and you make sure those are good. And so that's all the right thing. So do the things that you know should be done. And, you know, in the end, the work's gonna speak for itself. You know, don't get dragged down by the politics and the naysayers. And, you know, it'll work out.

Yeah, definitely. I couldn't agree more. Get the work done. Do the right work. Take initiative, find the things that are going to make the situation better and have the most impact and then execute on it. And whether or not you have the support or the leadership team seat or what have you, if you keep delivering and you're making an impact and making sure that people see it and know it and feel it, you will, you know, continue to move up and to be respected and to be seen as the force for good in the department.

Exactly.

I totally agree. You don't have to have the perfect situation in order to make it a real impactful job.

Yeah. And sometimes it's not. It's just not worth the energy that. That some of us expand and trying to make fans out of every single person, everyone in the leadership team, sometimes you just have to, like you said, do the right work, take the initiative, deliver. Just go ahead and focus on yourself. And that's what I'll tell my team sometimes, and my teams in the U.S. you know, when it's tough or somebody's complaining or someone's questioning, you know, and just put that out of mind. One foot in front of the other. Do what you know needs to be done. Keep marching forward. Let the results speak for themselves. Stop trying to fight it or trying to find the right words to say to someone, just let the results speak and it'll work out. And along the way, like you said, once you keep on delivering, you get that reputation. And along the way, even the people that were cynical, you know, now they can't really say a whole lot negative because you deliver over and over. That's right.

That's right. And the situation keeps changing. And that when you said that, I started to think back on, you know, I was, I. Both of us have been doing this for a while. There's booms and busts in the economy and that changes the way that people look at legal operations. And there's changes in team structure and there are changes in budget and headcount. There's external factors and regulatory and litigation that comes along that suddenly changes the game for the tone of, you know, how everyone's working in the department and suddenly they need you and things get better or, you know, in times of plenty, you know, you don't need to cut back as much and people don't necessarily feel like they need your help as much, but it's. It comes up and down all the time and the situation will change. So if you keep delivering, they will think of you when.

Yeah, exactly. Make yourself invaluable. Do it. Be a project manager that could potentially the project be shut down and you move on. Make yourself an invaluable part of the organization. Learn as much as you can. That's the other thing that I think helps a lot is just keep on learning every day, you know, take on challenges, take on new things to try to learn. Keep delivering on what you have to do. I'll say a lot of times, you know, you do you and so take care of yourself. Accomplish your goals and your objectives that you know you've got to do and just keep on learning and make yourself super, super valuable to the organization.

Take on these things. Especially with AI coming. I think we're all now rounding the corner and getting away from AI is coming. AI might replace lawyers. And now getting to that realization, AI is going to make us all much more valuable and smarter at how we work if we learn it and embrace it. So things like that, go and learn and make yourself valuable.

AI is a perfect example of another thing, right? Boom and bust and technology entrance and AI starting to change the conversation and change the tone. The other thing is I wanted to touch on. You've mentioned several times in the beginning of our conversation about the support role and the support questions and the can you do this to support my team? When we talk about impact and establishing ourselves and being able to make sure we're seen in the right light, it's a lot about picking the right projects, picking, you know, the things that have impact, that show you can execute and make things right. How have you and your team handled those tough conversations that are more, you know, order taking support type requests or questions. And what do you tell your team?

I, I tell my team to remember one thing is we're part of fairing, we're part of the business. And so we need to make sure that we think of these things in a way, in an entrepreneurial way. So when someone comes to us and says, yeah, can you take on X, Y, Z, can you do this for us? Can you take away these invoices and somehow work your mana magic so we don't have to deal with them? You know, the first thing is they've got to think about does the boat, does this make the boat go faster? That's one of our favorite things at fairing. It's sick. Yeah. And so I tell them all that, that all the time. Sometimes they'll come to me and they'll come to me with the problem is something that one of the other people, you know, let's say one of our partners came to them on. And my team member will be super passionate about it. Lots of energy and here's what we can do and whatever. And I've set up some meetings or whatever and I just see this huge project that's going to take a lot of their time. And so I'll ask them, does it make the boat go faster? You know, will the solution you're envisioning or the work you're doing, will it make the go boat go faster or is it just going to make someone happy? Yeah, over here. So that's the first thing we look at with these things here. Just really, should we be doing it? You know, and then if that answer is yes or maybe or it will make a part of it, you know, get faster, make some of us that are rowing it go faster, whatever it is, then we try to prioritize. And so that's what I was talking about earlier with that list. We, we don't just jump in anymore. We did. And I used to do that all the time. And I, yeah, great lesson when it came to fairing is I just said yes. Okay. Yep, yep, I'll help you with that. And before I knew it, legal ops team of one was underwater and just doing way too much. So I had to remind myself again, you know, that's the mistake that I think we all make. Yeah. And we make it again over and over. So I tell my team that as well. We can't just say yes. Instead we, we have to start talking to people about the fact that we're here to partner and help and collaborate, not do. And so when they do have things that people come to them with, they're now getting in the habit of saying, well, let's talk about it. Let's talk about what your goal is here and, and see if there's a way that I can help you achieve that goal. See if there's some input that I can give you. Or when they hear the problem and they know it's an area they know something about, they are getting used to and in the habit of saying, yeah, I do know a little bit about that area. I could possibly help you with that. I could possibly help you do that or get that or have some ideas. And so that's the first thing is, the first thing is, does it make the book go faster? And then the next thing is change the conversation to helping with or partnering with or collaborating. And then third is, don't promise anything.

When you get to that, it's okay. Let me just go ahead and put a pause on this. Let me, you know, take it back to the team and see when we could do this. You know, I want to make sure I can give you as much focus as possible on attention as possible and do this at the right time. And. And then as a team, we take a look because we're also all cross training. I. I try to have my team always at least have some visibility to what each other's doing, so we all learn. But then we take a look and we look at priorities, and then it goes back to all the way at the beginning of this conversation on. Then I'll take a list to the entire leadership team and say, okay, guys, this is what you and your team want us to help you on, work with you on, help me prioritize. And as a team, how does this make the boat go faster? You know, and so far, at least from my team's perspective, they're loving it because now they have an excuse to not take everything on. Now they have an excuse to feel a little bit less pressure, a little bit less stressed. But also they're telling me their relationships with the partners in the organization are going so much better. And now the conversations are changing. And so they're no longer hearing, when are you going to take this work on? When can I give you these invoices? You know, they're now hearing, hey, could you help me with something? Could you listen for just a moment? Could I ask your opinion on this? Yeah, find it as possible. So I'm loving that because I'm Loving seeing my team really feel much more, you know, as I tell them they are experts in their areas and they feel like that they're so I'm starting to refer to them as SMEs and different areas and they're liking that. But yeah, I think it's great when they change that conversation.

Well, and that's the key. And I love that you're saying this and showing that it actually works because everyone who comes into operations, we're people pleasers. We want to make life better for our clients and our customers. And it's so easy to say yes to everything. And I've lived through that. Sounds like you've lived through that. And as soon as you start to change that conversation to, I know everyone's asking for this, but if you really think about it, it's a lot of work for very little impact versus, you know, these other things that we should be working on and not just saying yes to everything that comes your way. Coming up with some sort of framework for prioritization, learning how to communicate that message of we're not going to do it, but doesn't mean it's not important. And not that your opinion is not valid, but once you're able to work on the right things and demonstrate and execute properly, like you said, it changes the conversation. You don't. The only, you know, gift you get for doing all the support stuff is just getting more questions, getting more demand. Right. If you're working on the right things and you're educating folks on that, then they start to come to you with the bigger questions. Like you said, Sheila, it's not the order taking but the. I'm struggling with this. My team is struggling with xyz. Do you have ideas? Can we partner with on ways to think about it? That's the conversation you want to be in.

Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly where we want to be. And I, people like you and I, with the years of experience we have, I think that's where we can add the most value too, that strategic thinking part of it. And then coupling that with the experience we have, the industry benchmarking we have at our disposal, the network we have at our disposal, those are all the things that can really make the boat go way faster. It can drive innovation, it can help. And, and yeah, that's my dream. When the practice area leaders come to me, it's going to be all on the strategic and not on when are you taking on the work of my paralegal?

That's right. That's right. And that's such an important thing because a lot of folks say, when you start a new role, do the low hanging fruit. Do the low hanging fruit. And there is some of that. But you really have to think, is it the right low hanging fruit? That it means it's quick and has a huge impact. If it's quick and it's low impact and it doesn't, you know, fix a lot of things and it's just paper cuts of people complaining about stuff.

Yeah.

You're gonna get, you know, trapped going down the wrong path. So make sure you pick the right path for you and your team.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And you also have to set yourself up for success. You know, earlier you talked about delivering and you gotta make sure that you think about things that you can deliver on and don't get yourself buried in something. Paper coat is a great way to say it's, you know, something that many thousands of paper cuts later, even if it's delivered, it's just really of little consequence or, you know, value to the organization. But we do that. We, you're right, we all do that. We all see it as like, oh my gosh, yeah, I can do that. I can handle that. I can take it on and forget that. We've got to be strategic and we're going to be underwater before we know it.

Absolutely. Sheila, it has been such a great conversation. You have so much experience, worked with so many different teams, and I'm grateful for your time and sharing so much wisdom today.

Well, thank you. I don't know how much wisdom it was versus just pain that I think we both have experienced, but it's fun to be able to laugh and talk.

About it and reflect it a little.

Bit too, and hopefully help others along the way.

Thank you so much for being here and everyone else, thanks for listening.

My pleasure.