Complex’s Moksha Fitzgibbons on Youth Culture, Creators & Media’s Future

Up today on the Speed of Culture podcast, we are thrilled to be joined by Moksha Fitzgibbons, the president of Complex. Moksha has spent more than 20 years at the intersection of media, commerce, and culture, helping build Complex into the definitive youth culture brand, scaling Network into a Gen Z commerce powerhouse, and now leading Complex into the future. Moksha, so great to see you today.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

It's a real honor.

Absolutely.

So for those who aren't as familiar with the Complex brand and its impact on its audience, why don't you just give us a high-level overview?

Yeah, so Complex is a business we launched many years ago. We actually, we launched in 2002. It was originally, we were gonna be the first ever digital magazine. That was our ambition. And we launched originally on a Sony MiniDisc platform.

I remember that.

Which—

We're dating most of our audience, but you and I remember that.

Which those were apparently gonna scale huge.

Exactly. It was the future.

Yeah, we were leaning the future. That didn't work, needless to say. We then pivoted into a traditional print magazine. The sort of concept of Complex was that, you know, there were sort of all these consumers out there that were interested in sports, but within sports, they were interested in traditional sports like NBA, NFL, but they were also interested in, in skate and BMX. They were interested in streetwear fashion, but also couture fashion. They liked punk rock and they liked hip-hop. And there was no media platform out there that was really bringing all of those sensibilities together in one convergence culture, media product that addressed that consumer and, and their evolving sensibilities. It was really like, what became millennials before millennials. And we also brought in this piece that, you know, young people, you know, they really sort of create their own physical identity through the products they buy and the experiences that they have feed the social ammunition. So we had this really unique format of one half sort of entertainment lifestyle content and the other half of the product was a buyer's guide. And we were really showcasing like sort of all the activities you needed to, to experience, to have the social ammunition within your peer group, and then all the products you would buy to create your own sort of personal individuality as a statement of what you're wearing and collecting, et cetera. So we, we sort of made the magazine quite successful for an independent. And thankfully we started in the early 2000s really working on digital and, you know, with the physicality of print and the expense of the physicality really makes it hard to scale and reach massive amounts of people. But as we began to work and test and learn in the digital formats, we found the ease and connectivity with consumers was far greater. Like we were scaling so much more audience, you know, in one day versus what would take a month to scale in the print product. And we started to lean into that. And it was a bit of, you know, stroke of good fortune that we started doing that because, you know, the 2008-2009 financial crisis happened. And it literally halved our print revenue. If it had not been for that leaning into digital, which grew even during that crazy, you know, year, it grew 600%. It really saved us and it showed us, hey, the path forward is digital. So we began to lean in pretty much heavily and exclusively into digital. And we went through the blogger era, we went through the sort of like, SEO, Facebook audience era, really sort of through all those evolutions to where we are now, where it is really a social first, video first. All the content is created to be highly shareable, highly snackable. It all maintains that core DNA of Complex, which is one of curation. It's a filter around, you know, what are—

Yeah.

Sort of the coolest mainstream artists, brands, athletes, et cetera, and maybe even more importantly, who and what you need to look out for next. And Complex, you know, over these past two decades, you know, in my opinion, which might be a little bit biased, but it is the most important and definitive media brand for young people between the ages of, you know, basically the younger end of our audience is like 16 all the way up to 45. So we've, you know, as sort of the millennial cohort gets older, they still want to be connected and feel youthful, you know, and to understand what's cool. And then the young people are really attracted to all the discovery and the platforming of all these emerging artists, brands, and et cetera. So that's really been our voice. And as over the last decade, as the media landscape has, has changed and, you know, a lot of brands that were quite solid, like Devices of the world, they have sort of gone away. You know, Complex has had this really unique connectivity with consumers. And I mean, you look at it, you know, objectively, you look in all the data, like the engagement rates are higher in social. We're one of the very few media brands who can get 60,000 young people to fly to Las Vegas buy tickets that are $200 to $500, stay the weekend, go to ComplexCon. You know, if you think about it, like media brands, they don't usually have that level of connectivity where consumers where they can actually—

Yeah, some do, but most don't. Like there's BravoCon that they do the same thing in Las Vegas.

Yeah.

But you know, that's obviously a much more niche audience, but you're right.

That's a great example. I mean, it's like the brands that can do it, I can name them. It's Complex, it's Bravo, and it's Essence. Not Matt, they've not, and they all have their specialized sort of like very deep relationship with the audience. I think many times what media brands do is like they want as much audience as possible, so their content is kind of a mile wide and an inch deep.

Right, they try to be all things, all people.

Correct, where the brands I just mentioned, us included, it's the antithesis of that. We are all about depth of connection with consumers And what's happened, the things that we were talking about like streetwear, hip-hop, reggaetón, skateboarding, all those things were much more niche when we begun. And those things now attract a much larger audience. And you can see that we've scaled the— I mean, it's pretty amazing. We're reaching over 80 million consumers a month are watching our content. And that means a third of the total US internet population. It's anyway, that tone and that style has really worked well for us and not deviating from it and not chasing sort of off-brand initiatives.

And obviously a lot of what you're talking about in terms of the success is ultimately about curation, right? Like you need to be able to consistently curate the best types of music content and entertainment content et cetera, it's gonna hit with your audience. So is that hard to scale over time? Because obviously what curates Cole is people and people come and go. So how have you been able to be consistent at kind of, you know, delivering that type of content and insight that your audience expects?

I think it's twofold. You're right, it's 100% about curation. And within that curation, it's really that what, is the point of view of Complex. Like, you know, the music community, like the artist, the athlete community, the athletes, they all want the cosine from Complex, right? So that gives you access to those super highly relevant personalities. They want that sort of positive Complex lens on their business and careers and lifestyle. So, so that's one fold. You're, you're taking the icons of culture and then you're putting it through your lens, which is very, clear and opinionated. And then the other part is really being obsessed with discovery. You know, over the last few years, obviously streamers have, you know, begun to emerge as like, you know, celebrities and personalities and like, you know, one of our content people here, Jordan, he tells a great story. Like he discovered this really big streamer now called Placboy Max and he did it just through like curiosity and trying to find out who was next. Mm-hmm. And now Placboy Max is essentially as big as like Kai Cenat or close to. And it's that kind of curiosity where, you know, you can't see it, but there's a whole bullpen of content creators out in front of me here. All they do all day is they look for what's next or they look for what's happening that they can then contextualize in a way that adds value to the consumer. So I think, and that also obviously on the talent side, whether you're an artist, a musician, whatever sort of your creative skill is, that's really powerful for you too because we're getting your project, your skills, your music, your message out to millions of fans in like a contextually positive way that yields benefits for their brand as well.

Yeah, it's really interesting. And when you think about just what is dictating culture moving forward? Obviously we've seen a huge, you know, overall boom in the creator economy, and I have to imagine that that kind of creates both threats and, and opportunities for Complex. How are you looking at activating on that?

So like, just, I think it was kind of a two-part question. So on the part of like what's moving culture, You know, it's to your point, things come and go. You, you can't really always anticipate what's next, but what you can do is fully lean into youth and fully lean into technology. Those are two constants that if you lean into youth and you lean into technology, better chances than not, you will not get outmoded. Like you will be able to change pivot, whether it's distribution channels, the type of content you're creating, the type of people that you're profiling. You know, if you're obsessed with youth, we literally have signs in here, you know, win the new audience, which is 16-year-olds, like bring the 16-year-olds into our brand 'cause they will grow with us for the next 20+ years. And you have to be obsessed with that youth culture and you can really never bet against the youth because— whatever, just evolution, right?

Yeah.

Right? And then on the creator side, we actually, like some people probably would consider a threat, but it's actually a great opportunity to partner with those creators, to offer them a platform that in many times is bigger than the platform they have, to offer them resources in terms of studios, creativity, access to other talent. To build IP with them. You know, we're not like, you know, it's not sort of like old school media anymore where like it's a very entrepreneurial environment where like, you know, we're partnering with artists, brands, musicians to do content with them, to do physical merchandise that we sell on our e-com and physical stores. We're trying to be in business with the creator community versus, you know, sort of like— Yeah. Creating a hedge of protection from them. It's like, again, it's that whole thing of like leaning into youth culture. If that's what young people are into and whether it's TikTok today and maybe it's Twitch tomorrow, we wanna be there and partnering with those talents and helping build their brands and helping keep our brand relevant, fresh, and interesting.

Yeah, absolutely. And of course, briefly touched upon this, but ComplexCon has been a huge success, obviously. And you know, obviously getting people to show up at that event is a badge in its, in its own right. But being able to execute and create the type of experience that I think especially a young discerning audience has, has come to expect is not easy to do either. So talk to us just about what goes behind an event like ComplexCon, because it's not something that's necessarily native to a digital publisher. It's a different muscle you have to flex, knowing since I've produced many events, I know they're anything but easy. So what goes behind that and why is it so important to the brand?

So I think of all of the physical experiences we do, whether it's ComplexCon, whether it's our retail pop-up strategy or our food festival, which is in 6 markets, that's, to me, it's all about consumer reward. It's taking the URL to the IRL and yes, we can monetize around it. But to your point, experiences are incredibly expensive. Nothing ever goes to plan, so there's incremental costs and bumps in the road. But it's really about, particularly in a post-COVID environment where the research we've done with the, particularly the younger cohort, they want to see the brand show up in person because they've been— at home for school, then they went back, went, entered the workforce, or maybe are just entering and people aren't in the office full-time, right? So they, they lack, there's some community lacking there. And, you know, obviously they've grown up on their iPhones their, their whole lives and, you know, so they're, there's not, they're, they're missing this physicality. And we really believe that it's a, it's a complete reward moment or a surprise and delight moment for them to take. this URL and social-driven content that they experience every day and let them experience it in real life. Like, that's sort of like, you know, the intention behind it. And then in terms of activating it, you know, it's an enormous cross-functional endeavor. You know, we've got a dedicated sort of production team who's making sure the trains run on time. And then, you know, there's the creative team developing all the creative assets that go alongside it, the content team with their strategy for, pre-promotion, live sort of content going on, and then the post, you know, sort of the post-shoulder content. I mean, that's, you know, a 90% effort right there. And then there's, you know, everybody that's working on the merch and the commerce product we're selling there. And then, you know, there's people working with all the brands that come in to activate and do sponsorships and things of that nature. So it really takes like pretty much every single person in the company to pull it off.

Yeah.

But it is, you know, it's our biggest sort of single in real life consumer moment. It's a big marketing expression to the audience, to the artist community, to the athlete community, to, you know, the people that are listening this pod and, you know, like they see, probably most people listening to this don't go, but they see all the content in social and, you know, the New York Times covering it and all of these things, it really helps contextualize in a physical way what the Complex brand is all about, how the audience is super high quality. And you know, it's kind of a big, you know, flag in the ground for us. And it's been, you know, we'll be on our, it's our 10-year anniversary next year for Complex Beyond.

Yeah.

We've successfully expanded it to Hong Kong for the last 3 years. Slightly smaller show, like Vegas is about 60,000, 65,000 people. Hong Kong is about 30,000 to 32,000. And then next year we're also expanding to, to the, to Abu Dhabi. So like to the Emirates. So we'll have, and our ambition is, you know, we want, we want to enter Europe. It's just kind of figuring out where the, where the right market is there and who the right partner with us is because it's, it's not something that we would sort of take on in totality on our own just 'cause the enormity of it. But we really believe that ComplexCon can be this, you know, global multi-market experience that brings together shopping, collectibles, music, sport, all under one roof in a really sort of positive and interesting way for consumers.

Yeah, I mean, I've heard nothing but amazing. Things about it.

You should come.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to come, especially knowing it's the big anniversary. So let's talk about the business side. So it's clear that you guys have done a great job at engaging an audience and really staying cool after all these years, which I, I agree is not easy to do. And there's been so many other kind of failed youth media ventures that have fallen and Complex is still going strong. How are brands leveraging the Complex platform today and, and what are some of the best use cases that you've seen?

Yeah, so there's, I would say there's 3 or 4 ways we're engaging with brands. So one is, you know, partner, because of our sort of like depth of connection, authenticity, and credibility with the audience, brands are mainly working with us on doing some type of custom program with us. In like the traditional advertising space, that usually comes in the form of like, some type of specialized custom video product, we're working with them hand in hand. Some people still do buy, you know, traditional media, but more of it is going to these sort of more in-depth partnering with creators, creating something new with them, creating new IP. That's a big part of it. Other brands are working with us on the e-commerce side and, you know, we're doing a lot of—

Mm-hmm.

Custom product there. It comes in the form of like brand collaborations. A really great example is something we did in February for, with the NBA. They were having an exhibition game in Tokyo and we have a relationship with an artist named Takashi Murakami, who's a Jap— I mean, probably like the most famous artist in the world, but you know, definitely the most famous in Japan. And you know, Ohtani being the best baseball player in the world right now, we went and pitched MLB this idea and we ended up having Marikami create a whole capsule, a product both for the Dodgers and the Cubs. You know, it sold multi-tens of millions of dollars worth of product on Complex, on NBA, on Fanatics. You know, like that's a great example of leveraging sort of like our creator and talent relationships, but to do something in the physical space around merch tied to a very key moment for MLB. And then other place people are leveraging us is in like the physical experience space. So whether it's around ComplexCon or a food festival, Family Style, which, you know, we scaled from 1 market to 5. We've done some really interesting things. You know, when we did one in New York in May, And like a good partnership example was with DoorDash. So obviously endemic to food. If you had this product called DoorDash FastPass, you've got like, you know, exclusive food. You got fast access to the high-demand restaurants. But what we did that I thought was really intelligent, we worked with DoorDash to also target restaurants that they've had trouble onboarding onto DoorDash. So we're able to use our relationships to help them onboard a number of super high-profile, high-demand, hard-to-get restaurants onto their platform. So they can, they had like the consumer experience, they had the content and media expression of that, and then they had kind of a B2B initiative all through this physical experience. So again, we're trying to go deep with our partners and not just be, you know, sort of like, you know, slinging impressions for lack of a better description. Right, right.

And I mean, slinging impressions is something I think brands are decidedly trying to run away from now versus towards just based on where things are.

Yeah, and there's an emerging area that's starting. Like Complex over the years, we always did, we also had like multiple programs with people where we would help them create content that would live on their channels. And ours as like a co-production, but it was intended to help them reach youth culture. Probably most famously is what we did with Mountain Dew around Green Label. You know, it was a media outlet, it was— made documentaries about skateboarding, it was a record label. Like, it was a really powerful, but it was kind of in the 1.0 digital sense. And what we're seeing now is particularly in like CPG, the quick serve restaurant arena, these legacy brands, they all have this need state that they need to transition from being essentially linear-based brands or TV-based brands to social-first brands.

Right. Like Taco Bell, for example, has done a great job of that.

They've nailed it, right?

Yeah.

Like they, they probably don't need any—

I had Sean Tresvant, their CEO, on the podcast and they just understand where they're going. Other brands, not so much.

And, and look, that all goes back to my buddy Nick Tran when he was their first ever, you know, social media person and doing social media. Right.

He transformed from the inside out. Somebody who's, who's digital first and is a millennial came in and was like, why aren't you doing this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, he, in, in, in all the stunt marketing he initiated, like, I remember one time they did a no phone party.

Yep.

And then—

Matt Britton, they did as well.

Yeah. And then everyone left and got on their phone. And the thing was trending on Twitter in 2 minutes, you know? So like they were doing it, like they're a brand that gets it, but a lot of other brands, you know, they're not there yet, right? They don't have that muscle inside their building. So we are in the talks with them, we're saying like, hey look, here's how we operate as a social-first brand. These are all the different formats, the tactics, the techniques we use. Can we partner with you on helping you with your, you know, transforming your brand to be social first. And that is an emerging area that we're seeing a lot of people kind of lean in and have high sort of intent interest around. So I think that's probably sort of tied back to the whole technology thing. How do you stay relevant? You have to do the same thing with your partnership products too, right? Like selling homepage takeovers is not, you know, a meaningful business anymore. Right.

Right?

You have to be more creative and you have to add more value. And so those are the areas we're really focused.

Speaking of evolving, very curious to hear your thoughts on AI and its role with your business, both from a content creation standpoint, just as well as to an overall business model evolution standpoint, 'cause it's obviously seeping into every corner of how every business operates, especially publishers.

Yeah, it is both an enormous opportunity and an enormous threat to traditional publishers, right? So Google is going to anything that's e-commerce related where they can make a vig, they're not gonna insert AI. But anywhere they can scrape and say, hey, this is the Coachella lineup, they're not gonna text that.

For now, as long as the publishers let them get away with it.

Well, Penske's suing them. That's why I use this example.

Well, you're seeing a ton of lawsuits in that realm right now.

Yeah. I mean, but again, it's technology. The writing's on the wall. You can't fight technology. The people that owned horses could not fight the car, right? Trains became 18-wheelers. You know, ships, planes, it just, you can't go against youth and you can't go against technology. So our mindset is to really lean into the technology. We believe that if we are the ultimate authority in the core areas that Complex wants to be known as an authority, we will rank in those LLMs and that will provide value to our brands and our partners on one side. We're using AI, um, Yeah. Sort of in test and learn cases in video. Like we, we have a, a series called 24 Hours to Live where we sit down with a celebrity and they go, hey, if I had 24 hours to live, this is what I do. Well, AI makes all the experiences that they're articulating through the story. So they're like, I'd be on a WaveRunner in Miami and then I'd go to Africa and go skydiving and then I'd have dinner at Lucali's. We're using AI to create the whole story versus. shooting it in real life. So those are, I think, areas we're experimenting. Certainly areas that are super immediately helpful are like pretty boring internal things. Like, you know, just making, you know, design go faster. You know, we have a video greenlighting process that, you know, we built the whole structure in a GPT, right? And it's just, it's just like a new software interface. Obviously it's helping with coding way faster. There's a lot of things, even doc review, you know, like the legal team, it's like, you know, it's like you can ask the GPT, hey, what were the updates to this document? Where are my risks? And it's gonna output, you know, section 17.1, you have a risk here. It's like, it just makes you go faster. And I think that's our, you know, at least that's what I'm encouraging people to do. I'm like, let's just use it, let's lean into it, let's learn it. Because if it can go make you go faster, that means the brand can accomplish more. And it just, I think it's just a, ultimately it's a productivity tool. I think it does pose risk for certain industries, but like any major transformation technologically, you see a set of jobs change or go away, but then you see explosive growth in other areas. And I think that's probably the inflection point we're in over the next 5 to 8 years or something like that.

Yeah. I mean, obviously as a publisher, when you're talking about Google, you also wanna think about traffic. And so many publishers have relied on Google to generate traffic in the past. And now obviously the big buzz term is around driving SEO within ChatGPT. And that obviously creates opportunities for new upstarts to come in and all of a sudden they're the highest ranked company. So I think there's so many different levers.

We call it GEO.

Yeah, GEO. Exactly. I recently heard another term too. I think it was AEO, but whatever it is, it all kind of means the same thing. I spoke at a conference last week and I asked show of hands, how many people have used ChatGPT to find something they normally would search Google? And 80% of the people raised their hands and this was like kind of a legacy industry. So it just shows how fast the consumer's changing in terms of finding information.

Yeah. And think about when they really nail it, right? What that's gonna mean for the app ecosystem. I bet there, I bet there's a day where you just speak to your phone and it books you the Uber. So you physically don't open your Uber app, but it goes and does it for you. Right.

So I mean, right. It's gonna be the end of the traditional user interface where everything's gonna be humanized and you just—

And then, and then what does that, and then what does that mean for Uber's very lucrative advertising business?

What was the need for Amazon when you just say, I want Nike size 11.5, here's a picture of them buying for me, and then the AI model finds where to source them and there's no Amazon involved?

Well, that's probably why they're leaning in with, you know, the Echo and all of those products. And quite honestly, they have the best marketplace in the world. So if they can figure out voice and integrating into digital assistants, which I'm sure is on, I would assume is on their roadmap, they're gonna be fine. I mean, the logistics is just world-class.

It's ultimately though about consumer habit in my opinion though. And if somebody is just used to asking ChatGPT for everything and already 80% of the people are raising their hands, if their output is good enough, they just might go in that direction whether the product's best or not. You know what I mean? And that's why I was personally surprised that Google didn't lean in sooner. It was classic innovator's dilemma because Gemini is a great product, but a lot of people still don't even know about it. And even though it's owned by Google where people go every single day.

I mean, it's arguably the best, I think. And certainly on deep research, it's the best. And you know, look, they have a real, as you said, inventor's dilemma. You know, I would say it's a business dilemma that you have built the most successful advertising business in the history of man, and now you have a pretty immediate technology change that could threaten that business, and you have to figure out how to leverage that, which I think they will. Like, it's, they're just gonna start service, like, do you remember old Google? It would like surface those like, those like kind of like box shaded ads, right? That like, they'll just go to that within the search. Within, you know, the GPT or within Gemini. You're gonna have to, I mean, like, there's no way to, at least now, but I guess down the road you'll be able to say physically, you know, go buy that for me. But right now that's not possible in most cases. So I think there's probably a more standard search ad that they'll serve up. And then ultimately it doesn't matter for Google because they're getting a vig on anyone they send to anybody.

Yeah.

So, so—

As long as people continue to go there for, you know, as, as their entry point, I guess is the question. And we'll, we'll see what happens. I mean, we've both kind of been in the market to just witness such incredible change. You know, there was a time where you wouldn't be able to convince me that there would no longer be a Blockbuster or there's no longer be an AOL. And sometimes companies seem just like they're indestructible and then they're anything but. And it's just, you know, it's—

Yeah. Yeah.

It's times like now, which is like, wow, you feel these seismic shifts.

Yeah, I was, I just read that book, Empire of the Elite. It's about the history of Condé Nast and it's such a good book. Yeah, it's really, it's quite strong. It's like fascinating stories. But one of the things that sticks in my mind is when I think it was Vanity Fair, they did Demi Moore on the COVID pregnant and it sold 1.4 million copies. Physical copies, and it was on every single morning show and every single news outlet for 8 days, right? I'm sure at that moment they thought they were like kings of the world, right? But here comes the internet. And, you know, Vanity Fair is one of my favorite brands ever, but it doesn't pop up as much anymore. You just like, they owned the physicality, they owned the exquisite journalism, it was designed super well. Mm-hmm. But like they didn't have that mentality of leaning into youth and leaning into technology. And you know, you just see it like it's just not as sort of relevant even though it's a very premium brand that it once was. And I think probably that whole company has those issues or any of the sort of legacy print people have those issues. And even sort of dot-com 1.0, I mean, it's like there are a lot of great brands out there, the AOLs of the world, the HuffPoes of the world, like, you know, a lot of them, you, you build up such a strong business, there's a fear of change and iteration. 100%.

And, and also the leadership just doesn't wanna get fired, right? So like a lot of times it starts at the top and I'm, we're seeing it right now with AI, AI as well, where there's some companies that are run by CEOs that they just don't wanna get fired, maybe at the end of their career. So they just don't wanna rock the boat and embrace risk and they'd rather be, they're okay with death by a thousand cuts. And there's others You see Marc Benioff doing it right now, for example. He's just reinventing the business and taking change head on.

Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's an excellent example, but you know, he also comes from a technology background and an entrepreneurial background. And you know, that's one thing I was gonna point out is like, you know, when, when we started this thing, you know, like Marc Ecko and his partners, like whatever it was, 6 or 8 of us, you know, it was always, super entrepreneurial and it's always like, we've never lost that spirit even though we're— Like, it feels like a startup every day. I mean, some, it honestly, it's not for everybody. Sometimes people are like, what the heck is going on in here? You guys pivot, change, you know, experiment way too much for me. Like, you know, just, it stresses them. But for the people that like that environment, and I think also Complex never got, massively successful financially, like the way a Google or something did, we were always forced to change and figure out what was next and lean into the next technology and lean into the next experience and go into e-com and then, you know, we're gonna launch membership. And like, because we didn't have this, you know, Brinks truck just dropping off the money every day, we had this like obsessive, culture of iteration and trying new things. So it, it, it just, I think when, when folks come from entrepreneurial backgrounds, particularly to your point, it's a very good one. When you have the management class running businesses, they're very conservative and for, and for good reason. They don't wanna, they don't wanna mess up the, you know, the gusher of money, you know? But the people that come from entrepreneurial backgrounds, They started with nothing. They're so, they're, they're so comfortable, they're comfortable with risk. And usually the entrepreneurs are trying to make such an impact from a consumer perspective that it's not about the money, it's about the impact, right? Like the, you know what I mean? The best entrepreneurs out there, like they either didn't make money for a very long time, right?

They're obsessed with the problem they're solving more than anything else. Yeah.

Like Brian at Airbnb, like, yeah, he is a billionaire, but He doesn't care.

Right.

He doesn't care. Like he just wants to be the best.

Well, because he's not coin— I think, you know, he's not coin operated. I think the best entrepreneurs aren't coin operated. When you chase the money, you're not ultimately passionate about the problem you're trying to solve. And then every decision you're gonna make is gonna be based upon driving dollars, which isn't best for the consumer that you're serving. And I think ultimately you lose the script when you go down that path.

Yeah. Hard. I mean, I admire him so much 'cause like you ever hear the stories like, Like, you know, he doesn't believe in like one-on-one meetings. He still interviews anyone coming in at all levels. Like, it's like he cares, he wants to win. And, you know, COVID, I mean, what an amazing pull-off. COVID could have been, you know, a death nail for him, but, you know, he pivoted quickly, made the hard move to, you know, make cuts. But you know, they weathered it and you know, it's just such an impress— impressive business. And you know, it just feels like he never, his appetite is never full to build what's next. And I, anyway, not to go down a total rabbit hole, but those types of people I think are better suited for businesses that are going to face rapid change and iteration versus, you know, hey, I'm at Chevron and we've been making $42 billion every year. I just can't mess it up. They're gonna be, You know, I mean, you see it in the oil industry, like why wouldn't they pursue solar? Why wouldn't they pursue nuclear? Like it, to me it makes total sense. Like that's the future, right? But they don't do it. Absolutely.

So shifting gears as we wrap up here, and this has been as expected, a great conversation. What are some predictions you have about the future of media and maybe even Complex? Like how do companies like yours need to continue to evolve to stay relevant moving forward and not be one of those companies like we've talked about during this conversation that is no longer relevant in today's world?

Yeah. So I think you have to, it's a, I think a multi-pronged answer. And I'm sorry, this will be like a little long-winded. Like one, you have to be obsessed with the audience. And to your point, the problem you're fixing for the audience. That has to remain core.

Mm-hmm.

Two, I really believe that you have to be obsessed with the youth and dialed into what they're doing, 'cause that's gonna lead you to the technology changes that are happening, 'cause you're gonna see what the youth are doing. And as sort of a content publisher, an e-commerce destination, which is kind of our core business along with the festivals, you have to be comfortable with the points of distribution changing, right? So, you know, Facebook used to be everything. Now it's IG, TikTok, YouTube, right? Who knows? I mean, maybe Twitch and all this live stuff becomes the thing. And if you're not pivoting into live and experimenting, you're gonna get caught flat-footed and you're not going— it's the same analogy to the print folks. They were killing it. Here comes digital, they're caught flat-footed. So if you're in digital now, and you're not experimenting with live and you're not leaning towards live, you potentially could have some problems. Same thing with AI. If you're not leaning towards being the most authoritative in your area, you're gonna have problems with the LLMs. So you have to just, you have to take on every one of these technology changes as an opportunity to reach the consumer through a new distribution touchpoint, you know, it's like, and be very nimble with that.

Yeah.

And I think, Most of the people that don't do that, they end up in a bad spot, but the folks that do, they're connecting with their audience in a highly relevant environment, one that the audience is already naturally gravitating to. And then from there, once you have the audience, you can figure out how to monetize. You can change your advertising product, you can change your custom content or sponsorship content, you can change the way you deploy e-commerce products to people. It just You know, it's like people for years, I mean, cable television was probably one of the best businesses ever created, right? And they made a ton of money, but the points of distribution have changed. You know, far more people are consuming NBA content on TikTok than they are on Peacock.

Yeah, I interviewed the CMO of the NFL and we were talking about how now people consume the songs and not the albums, right? There's gambling and fantasy football and, you know, they don't necessarily follow the jersey anymore, but the player. And the player's life. And that's a completely different way than I at least experienced sports growing up. I don't think— Yeah.

I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I have friends that work over at Overtime, you know, like that sort of social media.

Yeah. We had, we had the CEO of Overtime on the podcast.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so Dan and Zach are friends, but like—

Yeah. Dan's brilliant.

You know, but Dan will tell me, he'll be like, you know, saying to like his kid, you wanna watch a game? And the kid's like, nah, I'll just catch, catch the highlights on—

Yep.

TikTok or whatever, you know, like—

And they built their entire business model on that, on that.

And before TikTok, it was Twitter, right? Like Twitter was like the biggest live sports engagement platform. So, you know, you just, you have to be just really nimble. And then, but again, going back, if you have the connectivity with the audience and you put the audience first, you can figure out how to get brand sponsors involved, brand advertisers, e-commerce products, It just, but if you lose connectivity, it's so hard to win it back because to your point before, we're probably more inundated with more sources of professional journalism and content. And then, you know, whatever you want to call the creator class, I guess they're professional too, but many of them are, you know, sort of, I would say super scrappy upstarts. And then what about all the individuals who aren't professional creators, but they're just in your peer group and they're creating. Every day, thousands of clips that you wanna look into 'cause those people are in your personal peer group. So there's just a tremendous amount of attention competition. So it's super important that brands lean into all of these emergent areas, even if they don't work out. Like you might go spend a bunch of money trying to figure out Reddit and it doesn't work for you, but you have to try because, you know, there's audience connectivity there. Yeah.

Yeah, that's great advice. So we're gonna wrap up here, Moksha, with a quote or a mantra that you think has helped kind of encapsulate your professional journey today. What comes to mind for you?

A quote or a mantra? Well, one of my very first bosses, I can remember it vividly, we went to a meeting with like, you know, Macy's or someone on 34th Street. We're leaving the meeting, And apparently, I did not have like enough preparation or enough kind of like, you know, pep in the meeting. And he kind of just, you know, not physically took me by the collar, but kind of took me by the collar and just said like, "Hey, you need to treat every day, every meeting like it's your last. You have to come in with the sort of highest sense of urgency." Another piece he always told me, he said, "Read The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal every day." Yeah. Any meeting, any social circle, you will walk in and have something to talk about that's relatable in that time, you know, in that meeting, in that social setting. And you know, those two things he told me, one was very tactical, like read these two, you know, media outlets every day so you're smart or informed and then make sure you're prepared and you're going to every single business expression, trying to be bright and shiny and impressive. And you know, that kind of, it just, it stuck with me. That along with an immense fear of, you know, being poor as a young kid living in Tennessee. We didn't have much or any money. And you know, it's kind of a healthy relationship with, I have a fear of poverty.

Right.

Well, thanks for sharing. Maybe unhealthy, who knows?

Exactly. Well, it's driven you to the point that you've gotten today, and obviously you've had a great story and you continue to write your story every day. So thanks for taking the time to share your insights and your wisdom and the journey of Complex today. It's been fascinating to me and I can't wait for our listeners to hear it.

Yeah, it's super generous of you to have me. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation and yep, thanks a lot.

Absolutely. On behalf of Susie and I, we keen. Thanks again to Moksha Fitzgibbons, the president of Complex, for joining us today. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, see you soon, everyone. Take care. Hey!