General Mills’ Doug Martin on AI, Legacy Brands & Cultural Relevance

Up today on the Speed to Culture podcast, we are thrilled to welcome Doug Martin, the Chief Marketing Officer at General Mills, the powerhouse behind some of the world's most beloved brands like Cheerios, Häagen-Dazs, Yoplait, Totinos, and so many more. Doug has spent nearly 2 decades at General Mills shaping its marketing playbook and driving innovation across its impressive portfolio. Doug, so great to see you today.

Matt, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely.

So when you're the CMO of a house of brands, yeah, so to speak, how do you balance your time between all the brands? It's kind of like, how do you balance your love between all your children, I guess?

Yeah.

Um, and what dictates your areas of focus in a given quarter?

I mean, it's a great question. It's kind of an omnipresent challenge. I think the most obvious part of it is I, I try to really focus on our larger brands and devote more of my time to our billion-dollar brands, of which we have 9 and feel good about those. And so those are the places where I feel like my impact is going to be scalable and have the biggest impact overall in the company. I would say the challenge is not really like what brands do you focus on? I think a lot more of the challenge is how do you think about your time in advancing a particular set of work versus advancing a system, you know, advancing everything we're doing. And I think that's where I spend a lot of time trying to get that right balance that you never get perfect.

Gotcha. So an example of that would be more foundational, like how do you evaluate creative? Exactly. Tracking media spend, things of that nature.

Exactly. And how do I make sure that all the people at this company who are touching the creative process are thinking about creative the same way, evaluating it the same way, et cetera.

So in 2025, what are some of those systems that are most important to you in terms of moving the ball forward?

Well, I tell you what, I think the most important thing at the most simple level for me is for all of our marketers across the system to be realizing that what they're doing is trying to get a human being to make a different decision at the end of the day. And if they can't look at each other and say, is what we're doing today in this meeting or with this event or with anything else likely to have an impact, then let's do something else. So I think that's the first thing that I'm trying to reinforce over and over again is that it comes back to people, their lives, the choices, and we're making food that goes into their bodies. Those are number one and number two and number three. But then after that, there's obviously a million other things like how are we building a marketing ecosystem that gives us advantage or makes us faster, better, cheaper than, than others? And that takes a ton of work as well.

Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I've had a lot of discussion internally about what is AI-proof and what is sort of AI-dependent, so to speak. And ultimately, we still need to eat as human beings. AI can't feed us, right? So you're in an industry where unless there's some, some intravenous way for us to get nutrition, we're going to need to think about what we're eating 3 times or more a day. But at the same time, what does consume the, the customer's mind throughout the rest of the day will likely change due to all these technological, uh, evolutions that we're experiencing really at light speed right now. What are your thoughts about the changing consumer as a, as a byproduct of what the externalities are in, in today's world?

Well, side note, I was having a conversation with my 16-year-old son, and he's thinking about college, and he's thinking about like, hey Dad, what What should I go into that's gonna be AI-proof?

Yeah.

And I was like, I don't know. I, I think for the first time, maybe the advice, do what you love, makes sense. 'Cause other than that, we don't know what is going to be disrupted. He was very impressed when I told him that food was AI-proof. And he asked me if that's why I joined this company 20 years ago. I wish I had any kind of prescience like that. But in terms of the consumer, I think, you know, from my chair, the most obvious change is the continued increase in the flow of information and messaging to consumers.

Right.

And then also just how kind of split and fractured that whole system is becoming. So, you know, when I started this company, you could do a pretty good job as a brand manager if you had like a great campaign. And by campaign, we meant TV spots and like a really good coupon plan. And you manage your like price points at grocery, right? You do those 3 things. Now I think that bar to break through for the consumer is higher than it has ever been. And, and if you're talking about AI in marketing, what is AI-proof and not AI-proof in marketing? I believe 2 things at the same time. Number 1, I believe it is fundamentally gonna change how we do marketing. And number 2, I also believe that there is a fundamentally human creative component that is gonna be really hard to replace. Because otherwise we're all gonna be saying the same thing in the same channels at the same time, and it's all gonna be equally ignorable. So I think the need to in some ways surprise the consumer is, and delight, is higher than it has ever been. And, and as far as I can look forward, it seems like it's gonna stay high.

So in your experience through your decades of work, obviously working with these iconic brands, what are sort of the, the common themes when you have been able to successfully surprise and delight the consumer and break out and really impact them?

Yeah. You know, it is always a combination of surprising or delighting them with something relevant to their life where they immediately say, oh, okay, that, that actually fits into what I'm doing. It's not you trying to convince me, right? You never wanna be in the position of convincing. So that's number one. And then number two is, if you can wrap that in a little bit of human emotion and make it more compelling, then those, those, those tend to be clichéd, but 1 1 3 situations. You know, it is always tempting to just do the telling. Let me tell you how great this product is. And unless that's connecting on a little bit of a deeper level, you know, so many of the decisions that we make day to day are on autopilot. I wish everyone thought about Cheerios as much as I do, but they probably don't. And so how do you kind of short circuit some of that and get into a quicker, more emotive kind of conversation? I think it's really important.

Yeah, and you kind of alluded to this, but one way to do that is really being personalized in your approach. So unlike what was possible when you started at General Mills, now the technology certainly exists for you to be personalized in your approach. One challenge for big CPG companies traditionally, the majority of your sell-through has gone through third-party. Yeah. Big box retailers, grocery stores, et cetera. As a result, you don't have access to first-party data to be able to do that personalization at scale. How are you looking at that paradox moving forward and what are some of the efforts you're undertaking through your brands to try to maybe get your hands on more first-party data if you think that's relevant?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I will say that professionally I'm always a little bit jealous of people who, own their retail channel for this exact reason. And we still, you know, almost exclusively sell through a third party. You know, now someone is getting that click and collect or getting it delivered or whatever the new modality is, but we are not that retailer. So I think two things. One is the concept of personalization. I am thinking less about, Hey Matt, here's something exactly to you and more about what is contextually relevant for you. And so how can we figure out what those contextual relevance cues are so that we're just showing up at a moment where you're more likely to listen? You know, and some of those are really obvious and time-honored. Like for example, it's when you're driving home at 5:05 that you're like, oh shit, what's for dinner tonight? Maybe that message of a really easy dinner solution where you just buy, you know, Pillsbury dough and Progresso soup, and now you got dumpling soup, maybe that's the right moment for you. And then of course it gets more contextually like fitted from there. But, you know, one of the things we're doing is we have a partnership with Fetch. We can start to understand what are some of the things that go together. In terms of purchase behavior? And where might we look for triggers that perhaps you wouldn't think about intuitively and talk to people just to ensure that that relevance part of the communication is starting from as far down the track as you can get it?

And you mentioned getting the message out and radio as a way for consumers to listen. Obviously, that's evolved to podcasts. And one thing I often think about for leaders in TPG is that Right now, Gen Z is aged 12 to 27. Yeah. Which means nearly half of Gen Z is kind of out of college and in the home. And over time, that means that the majority of your customer who's thinking about what Cheerio, what, what cereal rather to bring for the household is going to be a consumer that grew up with the iPhone in the household. Yeah. Which means the whole way in which they consume media is far different than the consumer that you thought about building a brand in, within the last maybe 10 to 15 years. So to me, that means creators getting in the newsfeed, uh, user-generated content. Where are your brands in terms of the evolution path to really relooking how you distribute your content in its entirety so you can reach this new demographic? Yeah.

I mean, first of all, let me say, you know, General Mills as a company has traditionally won when there are a couple of kids in the house, you know, and that Gen Z is getting to that point now where the kids being born are starting to be in that generation. So we really do always have to be highly aware of how that mom or dad is, is thinking about shopping and, and consuming media. And so then I think you make the right point, which is if we assume that the world is continually getting noisier and it's harder and harder to break through, and an advertisement therefore has got the deck stacked against it more and more, the question for us is how do we get other people to be talking about our brands? For us, right? And how can we leverage influencers big and small to do that? Just to get a volume of conversation that we feel good about. And I think the thing we have to be really continuously recalibrating is we're not gonna have total control over that conversation. And that is okay. I actually like how much that forces our brand teams to say, hey, Cheerios, what do you stand for? 7 words or less, you know, like you cannot have an elaborate positioning statement that you're hoping to translate to 100 influencers. And so, you know, we've done things on the big side where it's like, listen, Kellogg Brothers are a lot of fun and our kids cereals are a lot of fun. Let's put something together. And that's worked very effectively. And then on the smaller side, there are a ton of people out there talking about food. On the internet. We're lucky in that this is a conversation people are having. It's not like people are having as many organic conversations about insurance as they are about what's for dinner, what will my toddler eat, what won't they eat, et cetera. And so I think our brand's getting sharper point of view of where they could possibly fit into a stream of conversation that's moving in a direction is where we need to continue to develop.

And do you see the need to evolve some of your heritage brands, you know, like Cheerios, for example, to a newer demographic? I mean, are you leaning to more nostalgia? Do you look at a brand like Cheerios or, or any of your, you know, like brands that have been around for a long time and say, we need to come up with a new logo, we need to change the look, tone, and feel to speak to today's generation. How, how do you look at that balance?

Yeah, I look at it like we don't wanna do a late '90s thing where we put an X in every logo.

So it seems, or remove the vowels, right?

The vowels are coming back. And I, I've been team vowel since day one.

No Cheerios.

C-H-R-I-O-S. Yeah. It looks like you just got out.

Yeah.

Like your jaw's wired shut. No, I think the answer to your question is yes. We are always thinking about how to evolve, but we wanna do it thoughtfully, right? It's not like time to change the logo. I do think, you know, we've been talking about our brands need to be distinct and enduring. And that enduring nature has got to be about the values and the cultural impact, but distinction. So enduring, really, you don't wanna change those things over a short period of time unless something's really dramatically changed in the world. But what is distinct today is very different from what was distinct, you know, a couple of years ago. And so we sort of, to adopt some Taylor Swift language, We've talked about a brand like Cheerios has been Cheerios for 75 years, but there have been different eras within that, you know, where like how mom is represented has changed. Like Cheerios was launched as a convenient way to get oatmeal without cooking. Like that's not really a message today that's going to resonate. So you have to update in terms of those eras to make sure that you are talking to today's mom, that you are talking to today's, kid. And by the way, you know, one of the things that we own in that brand is like, we are so many people's first finger food. And there's like an actual like developmental milestone called pincer grip. And it's really important. And like, we need to tell that story to today's mom of a 9-month-old who may now be Gen Z.

Of course, today's mom knows those complex medical terms far more than the moms of the past.

Totally. And in the past, you know, we did some great things with like, let's make sure your pediatrician has the information. And it's just not as effective doing those sort of traditional, like, imagine a flyer you would get at the doctor versus how many conversations are happening online about baby health and development, you know, a ton. And that's where people are, and that's where we need to be too.

Yeah, I mean, not only do moms kind of join Facebook groups about their baby's health, they'll join a Facebook group about babies who are born in May 2021 and their health.

Yeah, yeah. Where are, where are our cohort of babies today?

So you mentioned earlier that obviously food is AI which is true. Do you think brand is AI-proof? Because obviously the barriers to entry to creating content are so low right now. And now, you know, we're dealing with synthetic or avatar-based influencers, which lowers the bar even more in the social media sphere where people can create limitless content with really zero marginal costs. Yeah. Which we've never seen before. Yeah. What do you think that's gonna do to a company like yours' ability to build brands? 'Cause so many of your brands were built during the heyday of television where it was quite the opposite.

Yeah, I mean, so first of all, it is true that if you were to roll back to when Cheerios became a big brand, there were things like our ability to get on shelves nationwide. That was a barrier to entry. Our ability to be on television was a barrier to entry. And many of those things, those barriers are coming down. That is true. My belief, and it may be related to the chair I sit in, but my belief is that that is the time to triple down on brand distinction because that's what's going to matter at the end of the day is there are going to be new category entrants. There are going to be people who are like, hey, listen, I started this bar company in my garage and we got into one, you know, one region of Whole Foods and let's see what happens. That's inevitable. People want choices, but our brands have to stand for something a little bit more, and they have to stand for them over time. And we have to make sure that we're earning the right day in, day out to be a part of your life. So is the experience you're having tomorrow morning when you sit down with the family at the breakfast table to have Cheerios, is it excellent? Is it remarkable? You know, was it crispy and delicious? And do you feel good about it afterwards? Like, we really have to stay on top of that stuff now because You have to continuously earn your right to be there for sure.

So speaking of earning your right to be there, obviously CMOs are looking at themselves in the mirror every day and know that they need to earn the right to be in their seat. It's a, it's a hot seat at many companies. Um, and obviously a big part of it is that the role of the CMO is much different today than it was a decade ago. How is it different? If somebody was entering the office of the CMO today at a major company, what would you tell them? Are the mandates in terms of things that needed to master to make sure they were in that same seat 10 years from now?

I mean, from my perspective, the job has gotten so much more complex. I came to this company almost 20 years ago because I was at a student event and the CMO came to talk to us and he was so smart and funny and energetic. And I was like, "That sounds fun. I wanna do that." And, you know, primarily he would've been really focused on the creative development of our brands. And he was amazing at it. You look at what the job is today, it is still all of that. And it is still the person who needs to stand on the stage and evangelize human connections and making an actual difference in people's lives. And at the same point in time, the technical aspects of the job just continue to get more and more complex. You know, what is your system going to do differentially versus some other system? Where are you going to drive advantage? Where are you going to leverage external partners? Because you're not going to drive advantage. How are you going to stitch it all together? Into a workflow that your company can digest and operate in. And so, you have to be cross-functionally connected in a way that I don't think you had to before. Like, you have to be best friends with your chief technology officer just as much as you need to understand where the finance organization is coming from in terms of evaluating the impact of your work. I think that person today needs to be an almost unicorn blend of human insightful, metric focused, and digitally and technically savvy.

Yeah, that's well put. Yeah, it's definitely different than what I think a lot of people are learning. You know, when you said earlier about your 16-year-old and what should be focused on, it's just, it's so hard right now for education curriculums to really know the answer. If you think about it, I'm sure your son's school has textbooks that were written far before AI was really a thing. So how can those teachers train your son for a future world when the most important technology in our lifetime is kind of not even present in those textbooks?

Yeah, and we still are in like chapter 1 of what is it going to be.

Yeah. So it's fascinating. One other change that's occurred, particularly impacting your industry and your brands, is the advent of GLP-1s, or the dissemination of it. Are you seeing an impact in terms of consumption and preferences from consumers coming out of this yet?

I tell you, we spend a lot of time with consumers who are on GLP-1s to understand what is changing, what's different, what are your needs, et cetera. And so I think, you know, there are going to be also new opportunities that come with that. And I think the two things that we hear the most are, well, I am much more focused on kind of the quality of what I'm eating if I'm going to eat less. And so I want to make sure I'm getting the right amount of protein because they're a little bit worried about like losing muscle when they lose weight quickly. And also, Americans don't eat enough fiber to begin with. And if you eat less but eat the same way, now you're even more fiber deficit. Kind of two old school solutions of protein and fiber seem to be the new school answers for consumers on these medications. And so I think we're going to be thinking and continue to think about, are there new ways that we can provide those and you know, with the taste, convenience, and all the rest of it that you would expect from General Mills.

And as part of your role, do you— are you working with the innovation team and the product team in terms of how they're going to evolve, whether flavors, packaging, things in terms of that are coming out next based upon what you're hearing from the consumer?

Yeah, I think our brand teams are really at the center of like, who are we for? And for that person we're for, how big a deal is GLP-1? And therefore, what should we do? You know, and so you look at a brand like Progresso and canned soup is having a bit of a moment for us because it actually does such a good job of delivering against those things. Like, you know, there's 15 grams of protein in regular chicken noodle soup. And for Progresso, they're also looking at a 55+ consumer. And for that 55+ consumer, you're seeing a much higher usage of GLP-1. So like that team is all over it and thinking about now, How do we wanna message these benefits? And, and really that's where I would say I'm more involved is like, okay, now we, we have the, the facts behind it and now let's figure out what is the story that we're telling that's compelling.

Yeah, it's interesting. So as you know by now, like the CMO is a rockstar of advertising industry. Everybody wants to meet with a CMO, have them at the conferences, et cetera. And I'm sure given today's world, you have no shortage of people that want to sell to you and put you on their calendar, etc. Um, and obviously you can't meet with everyone and you can't, you know, spend money with everyone. You have to make tough decisions as part of your job. What has been common throughout your career when you chose to work with a partner, either on the agency side or the ad tech side or whatever it may be, that allowed them to break through and really add value to you as a CMO?

I'll tell you, the Kind of the flip side of that is that you start to learn to notice when someone is selling their story and not trying to help you build yours.

Almost what you're saying earlier about what works for your consumer.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it is just marketing to me, you know? But when you're like, I don't quite understand. I also, I'm not a genius, but at the same point in time when I'm sitting in something and I'm like, why do I feel this stupid? That is generally an indication that it might not be exactly what you're looking for. And what I have found is those partners who are like gonna take a moment to understand what you're trying to accomplish and then acknowledge that they don't have it all figured out but are willing to work on it with you, those are the partners where those relationships become much more long-standing and fruitful. Because like we said, like, I think the, this is just starting, some of this technology work. And so porting over a solution from over here in health and wellness or hospitality or whatever, it might not perfectly fit for a consumer products company. And you got to be willing to learn together.

Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about customer centricity. And really, that's what you're talking about is, you know, no one cares about someone else's unique selling propositions. Everyone wakes up every day, and whether they're picking what cereal to eat or what advertising agency to hire, they have their own, you know, things that make up success for them. And it has to be about them if they're gonna listen and it's worth their time.

Totally. And like, you know, I, I also think that bar of it's about me doesn't have to go all the way about, all the way to one-to-one. Like if you, you know, I just, there was a, a, a little cabaret's execution that I love from the UK, but it basically had the front of pack design and it, it splits up the bar into like the person who made dinner, the person who, who did the dishes, and the person who just enjoyed it only gets this much chocolate. And what a beautiful and simple way to say, oh, I actually get what's going on around this product in a way that they didn't have to drop an Alexa into your house for a year to find out what you were up to, but you still feel seen by that product. So I think we're always looking for those type of examples as well as like, do you really understand how people are living with whatever it is, Progresso, Cheerios, et cetera, the way you fit into your life and how can you show them you get that?

Yeah, I love that. So shifting gears as we wrap up here, Doug, obviously you've had a great run and continue to do great things with General Mills and their brands. If you look back on your career, what are some of the decisions that you think you made that were the right ones that put you in the position that you are today?

Man, that's a good question. I will say there have been times in my career where I've had the right boss at the right time. So it was like the thing that I needed to learn, at that moment. And the two things— and so that I've tried to pay off in the way that I lead. But there was a boss I had when I rotated onto Cheerios for the first time. And she was like, Doug, versus what you've done in the past, this brand is differentially important to consumers and moved by comms. I need you to listen and learn about everything that Cheerios has done over the last 10 years and the way that consumers have interacted with it. And that helped to deepen my appreciation for you know, the relationships that brands can build. Even if most of our business is transactional, you can build some of these relationships. And then a little bit later, when I got promoted to director, I had a boss who was more conscientious about his role as a leader in the company than, than I had been used to and was, thought a lot about what it meant to the employees in our operating unit how he showed up day in, day out. He just really put a lot of thoughtfulness into that. And initially I was like, I don't know, shouldn't he— is he focused on the right stuff? And of course the answer is, yeah, he was because people did great work for him. They knew what his priorities were and they also knew that he was going to see and value their contributions. And so that had a huge impact on me.

So just like how you've gotten a lot of value from those you've worked for, obviously people are gonna get a lot of value working for you and vice versa. And obviously greatness is in the agency of others and you wouldn't be able to manage all these brands by yourself. What, what is true, especially with the newer employees that are coming to your organization, when you see somebody that's like a rising star and you're, and you're like, that person really gets it, what normally do they possess that, that makes you feel that way?

I'm gonna tell you, there's the simplest answer and it is curiosity. The people who come in and you have opinions, it's great. And you share those opinions and it's the people who then understand that, well, that wasn't a good idea, but let me understand why.

Okay.

What did you learn when that happened before? Oh, I understand. And why do people think that? Oh, I get it. And why doesn't, you know, Totino's say this? Ah, like it's a continual questioning that has people at the center that I think makes a great marketer. And I also think, you know, you can tell people that and people can model that behavior, but there is an innate curiosity that some people have that's just a little bit more hungry to know that makes a huge difference.

Yeah. I think a lot of it also has to do with patience. I mean, I think maybe when sometimes people meet with you or they'll meet with me, they have an agenda and they just want to solve that agenda, whether it's selling something or getting me to sign something or whatever it may be. And ultimately, they have to really be in love with whatever the problem or the deeper reason that they've come to work at your organization to begin with.

Yeah.

And it's not just so short-term that I want to get a promotion or I want to sell this thing more. Because when that happens, curiosity kind of goes away. Yeah. Because you become kind of a heat-seeking missile to what's next. Right. And when you have a love for what you're doing or a passion for what you're doing, you real— or even just you really care, that's when curiosity comes out naturally. Because obviously, If, if someone called you and said your son broke his leg, you'd have a ton of questions, right? Because you're— you want to know everything about it. Naturally, you're curious about something because you care about it. And I think when you care, you probably take care in your career and you probably do a much better job.

And I think there's a way to— I mean, of course people want to make progress, but I think there's a way to frame that. It's like, I'm not here to get the promotion. I'd like to learn more about e-commerce because I think that's going to be critical for our business in the future. And that might have an impact on the role that you're taking. It's really about You know, just, just framing that as a learning opportunity to broaden a skill set, I think makes a huge difference in terms of how people connect.

100%. So Doug, wrapping up here, we, uh, ask our guests on the Speed of Culture podcast if there's a saying or mantra that helps kind of encapsulate or define their career during the day. Just wondering what might come to mind for you.

So the one that I think about the most is my dad would say to me, and I, I think a lot of people have said it, but I always, uh, remember him saying it, is that at the end of the day, people remember how you make them feel, not what you say. And I think about that a lot, both in terms of like my personal impact on people at work, but also in marketing, you know, are they gonna remember feeling something from a Cheerios ad or, or what you said? I think it's also true they're gonna remember that feeling. Yeah.

Well, I feel really grateful that you joined the podcast today. I think it was a great conversation. You're obviously somebody who shoots from the hip and, has a lot of experience. And again, I'm really grateful you took the time to share some of your thoughts and your experience with us today.

Well, I really appreciate you having me, and your background is on point. I love the cricket box stack.

Through a lot of testing and optimization, uh, you know, I've been working on it. So I have a new book coming out, Generation AI. It's about, uh, Gen Alpha and, um, their impact on society. So I'm going to send you a copy. I'm curious what you think. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much for joining. On behalf of Susan Iwateen, thanks again to Doug Martin Chief Marketing Officer of General Mills, for joining us today. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, see you soon, everyone. Take care.

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