NFL’s Tim Ellis on Global Fandom, Creator Content & Cultural Relevance

We're here live at the Possible conference in Miami, and I'm thrilled to introduce Tim Ellis, the EVP and Chief Marketing Officer of the National Football League. Under Tim's leadership, the NFL has expanded its fan base, embraced diversity, and used innovative campaigns to spark social change. Tim, thanks so much for joining us today. Great to see you.

Yeah, thanks for inviting me.

Absolutely. So I'm a huge NFL fan. In fact, I just had Jen Cavanaugh, the head of marketing for the Philadelphia Eagles, and that— where I'm from, I'm from Philadelphia, so I'm a huge Eagles fan, went to games since I I was like 8 years old with my father. And I also had Laura Krug, who's the CMO of the Chiefs. And the two Super Bowl teams have been the last NFL-related guests I've had. Now, of course, I have you, so equally as excited to have you aboard today.

Yeah.

What's your favorite NFL team? Are you even allowed to say?

I'm not allowed to say.

Okay.

You can guess. I'm from Northern California.

Okay, there you go.

I grew up there. Gotcha. But by the way, Laura and Jen are like amazing CMOs. They're fantastic. Two of our top CMOs.

Because brand building in the NFL is something that really fascinates me because, you know, people have such heart, and it's beyond football. I mean, anyone who knows football knows that it's about family, it's about tradition. It goes so much deeper than just a game. And I think stewarding one of those brands really commands such responsibility, but also such opportunity.

Yeah, I mean, fandom starts in many cases when you're just a kid. I mean, just like literally like 5 years old is when we started thinking about developing fandom. And traditionally, most of the time, of course, that's come from that family unit, right?

People have such passion towards their teams, obviously, right? And it goes so much deeper than the game. It's about family, it's about tradition, it's deep-rooted. So what does it mean to steward a brand, whether it's a team in the NFL or the NFL itself? Because the nuances of the brand are so much different than, say, a detergent or deodorant brand.

Right. And it essentially drives culture. It's a reflection of culture, but also drives culture, right? Yeah. And most of us became affiliated in some way with football or with sports when at your earliest stages of life. Yeah, for sure. And so, you know, I would say it's a great honor and it's just so much fun to be a part of the NFL, but it's a big responsibility as well, right? Yeah. You realize that when you have over two-thirds of the country who call themselves fans, while that is certainly a strength, it's also a big responsibility. And we take that quite seriously, right? So when I think about my strategy for the NFL, it's really a— a dual-pronged strategy. On the one hand, we focus on, you know, football as an escape, right? So the joy of the game, and then we transcend the game. And there are lots of things that we're doing right now in order to be a better uniter, right, in this country. We know right now it's divisive times, right? I mean, we know that. And we take that role as a force for good very seriously. Right? So, the NFL contributes, for example, like over half a billion dollars a year, right, for causes. We have a lot of really important partners who we work with in order to really give back and to be a uniting force. In fact, today I'm speaking with the CEO of Big Brothers Big Sisters on stage here at POSSIBLE. And we're talking about a lot of things that we've done that are literally changing kids' lives across the country. And in fact, one of the, um, one of the, the folks who's going to be on stage with us is Ray Davis, who's a half running back for the Buffalo Bills. And he was a little, you know, in San Francisco in the Tenderloin, uh, at the age of 5 or 6. Yeah, he's got an incredible story. Yeah, look where he is today. Anyway, I just think that, you know, we, we— it's, it's an incredible time to be a part of the NFL. Um, I'm responsible for, you know, obviously um, getting people to engage and watch the games and engage with all of our social content. That's how we earn our revenue. Um, but then I'm also responsible for building a, an image around the NFL, right, and the players and the clubs, which in essence help us bring in more of these casual audiences.

Yeah, for sure. So much to unpack there. I mean, I think one point you made that really stuck with me is you're right, like, being at a stadium of 50,000, 60,000 people where everybody is holding hands and cheering for the same thing, for the most part. I've been Plenty of Eagles games where they threw snowballs at Giants fans, but you get my point. It's unifying. And it's not only unifying in person, but the NFL is, you know, 90 to 95% of the top 100 live watch shows on television every single year. So it unifies people in person, it unifies people over television, a world where we're increasingly fragmented. So it is one of those rare forces that we still have in America, for better or worse, that is bringing people together. That being said, like, how do you know what the right decision is? How do you know what center is? How do you know you're not gonna piss people off? And what goes into those decisions?

Yeah, that's a really good question because there are some parts of our program that do make people uncomfortable. Yeah, I'm sure. Right? And you have to, if you really wanna move forward, if you wanna be progressive, you have to be willing to make some people uncomfortable in order to sort of connect on a human level with others and bring them in. When I first came to the NFL, I had a very simple, but I think, important shift in strategy. It was— I just call it the helmets-off strategy, right? Like, the helmet literally is between us, our game, our players, and our fans. And so from a very practical perspective, the NFL— most people don't know who these guys are. They don't know what they look like, right? Um, but more importantly, they don't know who they are as human beings. To put forth a more human, more compassionate face of the NFL towards our fans, I employed this helmets-off strategy. And And just to begin to sort of like get behind the things that the players really cared about. And that could be anything from video games or, you know, music or fashion, or it could be an important foundation, important cause that they care about and they want to get behind. And we can help them with their platform, be their platform in essence. And then, you know, these guys, they care about building their own brands, increasingly so. So we also work with them to understand them and to sort of help them build their own brands so they can be successful both on the field and off the on the field.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the accessibility of players is so much more dramatically intense now than it was when I was growing up, where sure, you would be able to watch the players' highlights on ESPN, right? But you wouldn't be able to see them walk into the locker room. You wouldn't get to see what they tweeted and what they cared about. And now you have these huge kind of crossover stories like Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift. And several years ago, as you know, it was Tim Tebow, and he brought kind of the devout Christian community into the NFL. So I would imagine when you see those kind of crossover stories, it gives you an opportunity to give the NFL broader cultural relevance. When that happens, do you lean into that or do you kind of let those stories take shape on their own?

No, we definitely lean into it. I mean, in fact, I have— we actually now we even have a fashion editor, right? We have a guy who works with us who does nothing but like work with players and work with Vogue and work with GQ and like work— the NFL putting forth like is the fashion, right?

Right.

And like if you look at, for example, we just got finished with the draft this year.

Yeah.

And Green Bay. What a turnout. I mean, what are the, the red carpet there and the draft?

Turnout was insane though.

It was insane. Yeah, yeah. And the tune-in was also— I mean, we had, I think, 13.6 million people who tuned in and watched that, which is bigger than any of the NBA Finals games last year. Wow. Right? Like, it's, it's amazing. It's become like the third most talked about event of the year, only behind the Super Bowl and the Grammys. So it's like, you know, and we're doing a lot of things right there to sort of drive that. So again, obviously we reflect that culture, but we're also driving that culture. Um, you know, I, I feel that, uh, the more access we can give our fans, the, the more they just enjoy their experience with the NFL. Like, that inside access, particularly for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, is everything.

Yeah, right.

And so in fact, we have like a whole army of what we call these LCCs. So it's live content creators, right? And they're— we, we started them out in the beginning about 6 years ago when I first joined, 7 years ago when I first joined the NFL, and they were on sidelines, just getting stuff that, like, NFL Films and that the broadcast partners were not getting, right? Essentially, again, helmets off, right? These guys having intimate, fun, interesting, warm moments on the sidelines. And then we realized that we should be having our LCCs also off the field, right? So we began to put them with players throughout the NFL. And so now each of the teams has at least 4 of these LCCs on their team, and they're constantly getting— capturing content which is intimate, it's interesting. Again, it's sort of showing these guys in a more human light.

Storytelling.

And it's storytelling, right? And so, you know, that to me, that's— now we're finding even ways through our partnerships with Adobe to sort of allow our fans to also be creators. So you've got, you know, we've got creators with some of our programs, like with Google, for example, YouTube, YouTube TV. We have a creator program together where we bring creators to the games, we give them access to our content so they can, you know, they can produce. And And it's exponentially increased our distribution, right, of NFL content throughout the world, not just in the US, but all over the world. And now, we're also through another program with Adobe right now, we're allowing our fans to actually create things and distribute it on their social channels as well. So, we're finding ways in which to sort of like get out that sort of interesting, intimate, inside access content, which is, you know, initially bringing people closer. To our brand, to our players, to our clubs.

I mean, I think that's awesome because I would imagine 10 years ago the NFL never would've ventured down a direction where the fans can basically take content and make it on their own, right? There's IP issues, lawyers are scared, et cetera. But the reality is that's where the world is headed. And when you look at Gen Z, they're spending all their time on phones. And when they're looking at content from phones, they're only looking at content from other people. So in order for you to gain mindshare and continue to be relevant, you need to get into that newsfeed. And the way you do it is through creators.

That's right. Through creators and through, you know, through smart use of technology and really understanding what each individual fan wants. I mean, you're an Eagles fan, right? Like, and you have your special players and you have the things that you want, the types of content that you want. And so our role really is to understand that and do it proactively. Yeah. Before you even go to look for it.

That's right. Right. Another way I think fandom has changed for the younger generation is they consume more songs versus the album. Right? Because there's fantasy sports now. There's online gambling. There's all sorts of ways to interact where you're rooting for an individual player. And you can follow the player, to your point. How has that changed the way that people consume the NFL since they really now can watch any player through YouTube TV? You have a great partnership there. So you obviously can watch any team you want. You're no longer limited to your hometown. How has that changed the way that you market the league?

Well, this is an incredibly important question because most people don't realize 60% to 65% of our fans are what we call displaced fans, so they don't live in the same town. You're one of them, right? There you go. So it's important for us to really understand who their teams are, right? That's obviously what we have, like 300 attributes we know of each of our fans in our database, right? Um, at least that we're trying to get. Um, and certainly, you know, which team, which their— which players they love the most are the top of the, the most important attributes. But so we're essentially finding ways to allow fans to, you know, on various platforms to consume the way they want to, right? So, you know, you mentioned Sunday Ticket from, from, uh, YouTube. YouTube TV has done a great job with it. Fantastic. And they're doing things we never even imagined we could do before, right, in terms of serving things up as you're watching, uh, on your fantasy team and like giving all kinds of information, insight.

Side note, by the way, I had the DirecTV satellite when I lived in New York City, but they didn't have in my building. I literally took a piece of wood and I drilled it into the window ledge so I can actually watch Eagles games. Like, that's what fans do to get—

That's what fans do, right?

I know. And it worked half the time. The other half time it didn't. But it was just— Right. Yeah.

But us finding ways to sort of partner with those folks who can help us deliver that content, again, the way that fans want to consume it on the go. Like, we have NFL+ as well, right? Where if you— anywhere you are on the go for your own home team, there in your area you can watch, right? Or you can watch Red Zone. You can, um, so anyway, so it's just finding the right partnerships and having the sort of the courage to sort of go away from some of the traditional forms of distribution has really helped the NFL grow. I mean, if you think about YouTube and Sunday Ticket and then Amazon on Thursday Night Football, Netflix with 2 games at Christmas, like, we're continuing to sort of, um, find the right relationships that we can distribute our content where we know where our fans are. And in doing so, we're lowering the average age of our fans significantly. Right. And that's one of the biggest challenges for, for the NFL and obviously for me in marketing is that, you know, if you're not careful, you age out, literally age out.

You see that happen with other sports.

That's right. That's right. So the focus on the youth segment is absolutely critical. And that helps you kind of in two ways. On the one hand, you know, you're future-proofing your, your business, the NFL. But on the other hand, you're driving energy and excitement and youthfulness, vitality, right, into the brand, into the product itself as well. And sort of, again, finding those right partners, whether they be distribution partners or that they be creators and influencers, is really important. And we, and we always aim to find the partners who we know are authentic fans like yourself.

In that regard, we saw Major League Baseball recently change the rules of the game. They put a timer on the pitcher, and they obviously had problems with the games being too long. They were at risk of disenfranchising the younger fan. I wouldn't put the NFL in that category, but as we move forward, do you see the NFL changing the rules of the game or how it's presented to make sure that this TikTok generation continues to be attracted to the NFL?

Listen, the NFL is constantly looking at its rules and making adjustments as we move along.

Yeah, the kickoff hold last year.

Yeah, that's what's made, I think, the NFL great. I mean, that's why it's still so relevant and exciting for fans of all ages, not just our younger fans, but fans of all ages. And I think that those guys have done an incredible— I say those guys, my colleagues, right? And Commissioner Goodell have done an incredible job of continuing to sort of, you know, um, just find ways to make the game more exciting. You know, the offenses now, like with the quarterbacks, the— it's incredible what they're doing right now. Yeah, like the, the, the, the— how close the games are right now, um, the, the powerful nature of the, the, the offenses today. It's just— it's because they continue to find ways to sort of make the game better, right, by making these little adjustments. So I think I applaud what the MLB did. I think it was a— it was terrific.

Yeah. Do you think we're going to see robots referee games at some point in our lifetime? Do you think AI will take the place of referees over time?

I'm not going to speculate on that, but what I, what I will tell you is that we are very close.

That question just popped in my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, listen, we're, we're very carefully, um, you know, working with our partners and, and employing the right technologies in order to to have the game as great as it can be, right? So, like, I don't— robots, who knows? I would never say no to anything like that. But, like, I think that what is important is that you continue to have the right traditions and the right level of authenticity that fans expect and want. And then you find the right ways through technology to make the game better and to make the experiences better for fans.

Yeah. The other thought I had is how great would it be to have cameras in each player's helmet? Just so you got that view of the ball coming in?

Oh, that we've definitely been looking at. Yeah, I'm sure. Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, not surprisingly, some of the best content we have out there is the audio. Yeah. Right? When you have the live mics, you open— Oh, totally. I mean, they, you know, fans love that stuff. Yeah. So do I, by the way, as a marketing guy.

Everybody wants to get closer to the game, right? That's right.

Yeah. That's right. So they've looked at ways of how you could actually do that with the cameras and so forth. But Listen, again, all of our partners, our broadcast partners, and those of my colleagues there at the NFL, they're finding ways to provide surprising experiences, right, through technology. And, you know, it just makes the whole thing more fun.

Absolutely. And I'm sure you're aware of Cosm, the sports bar, you know, chain that's going on, which is like a sphere-like experience. And then with the Apple Vision Pro, you're getting ways to deepen more deeply emerge. Do you see, uh, mixed reality and virtual reality entering the fan experience over time even more?

I think so. I think it will, absolutely. I mean, along— I mean, I come from the gaming world, right? Yeah. So I was at Activision for, for 7 years. And so I think that anytime you can do an immersive experience like that and give it sort of a different, sort of, uh, unexpected, unpredictable experience, I think is— fans are gonna love it, right?

So I'm still waiting for an NFL game at the Sphere in Vegas. That would be amazing.

Yeah, it would be.

I'm just throwing ideas at you. Obviously, I've been thinking about it a lot. So you mentioned global and the NFL going global. And, you know, my, my Eagles opened up last season in Brazil on a Friday night, which is really a unique way to kick off the season. I know the NFL is really focused on globalizing the game. I think one disadvantage NFL has versus, say, the NBA is a lot of NBA players are from international markets. Where most NFL players aren't yet. So, but that being said, there's really a huge thirst for NFL content globally. What is the global strategy? What are some of the markets that you're currently seeing some traction in?

So the markets we're really working on right now, uh, you mentioned one, Brazil, right? Mexico is obviously another, uh, Canada, um, Germany, England. Um, we're increasingly looking at opportunities in Africa, but we have a great development program, for example, across the continent of Africa and several countries there. And so we're, we're You know, and there are other countries, you know, Middle East and Asia that we're looking at as well. But, um, the current right now— and we're going to be in Spain for the first time this year, Madrid, for a game, and in Dublin as well. So it's a pretty aggressive strategy globally. Um, you know, you're right, we're— while we are very dominant in the U.S., we have a long way to go, you know, in countries around the world. And so we're very carefully in our strategic plan sort of Um, taking it from a participation perspective. So not only are we developing players throughout the world and helping them realize their dreams of coming back to the US and playing in college and ultimately in the pros, but we're also really, um, helping to drive flag football, right? Participation. So flag is going to be in the Olympics for the first time in LA '28.

Awesome.

Uh, we're hoping to get them in the Brisbane Olympics in '32 in Australia. Um, we're— right now it's one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Right now, and certainly in the U.S., but also around the world. That's key for us because, you know, just like in the U.S., when you, when you, when you play the game, you're much more likely to become a fan. In fact, 4 times as likely to become a fan if you play the game. So that's critical. And you really need to sort of also bring in the family unit. So bring in the parents and, you know, friends and family, if you will, into that experience. So there's a lot of things that we're doing to drive flag. Uh, and then, so it's, so it's really a combination of getting people to play the game, right? Getting people to engage in the game. So we have games over in these different countries, right? And then we're also developing players because if you have players, if you have players who are playing the game from your home country, like the Eagles who won the Super Bowl, they happen to have a player from Australia.

Yeah, Jordan Mailata.

Yeah, Jordan Mailata. So he, and he, he started and he actually, you know, was, was, got a ring, right? So that's really important. So Australians then see that, of course, and they get excited.

Yeah.

So having these players actually from these different countries— we also have a program where even if you're not from that country but you have a connection, heritage connection, then there's a program where you can put the flag on the back of your helmet, which sort of is a way to show the pride of your— where you come from or your family comes from. And that's, again, it's like making the game more open, making it more international. Listen, I would say one of the things that I've learned since I've come to the NFL. And I think a big part of our success has been we just need to keep opening our arms wider, right? Bringing more people into the NFL. Uh, this, you know, we, we have the theme that the— in a— that football's for everyone, right? And I think that, that, that sort of clear and passionate message of inclusivity is really important. Um, we are now— we have the biggest fan base ever for the NFL, over 200 million people. And that growth over the last 7 years has come from our youth segment, our girls and women, and Latinos. So we have been really incredibly focused on those 3 acquisition targets, and that's what's driven our success. And it's also, you know, I think key to our future.

Yeah, totally makes sense. So, uh, one last question before we, um, you know, wrap up and talk a little bit about you, but sponsorship is obviously a big part of your business. And for brands that are sponsors of the NFL, It's a critical channel because, as mentioned earlier, the NFL is one of the last bastions of live viewing that exists here in America. When you look at sponsorship activation, what are the sponsors— what's true in sponsors that have activated the right way and gaining the most out of their investment in the NFL?

Yeah, those who, those who really get involved, right, with the NFL, both on the operational side as well as on the marketing side, those are the, those are the partners. And I always tell our partners that as well, like, work with me to help you. Yeah, right. Like, let's, let's get our teams together and really, like, work on this together, um, as opposed to, you know, you guys giving us ideas and we say yes or no. I mean, you know what I mean? If you really want a great partnership, um, it really is, is based on a strong level of cooperation and collaboration and co-creation.

Yeah, right. It's not just slapping your logo. That's right.

Billboard. That's exactly right. And I think that those— and most of our partners do that, by the way. But like, I think those partners who do that are the ones who get the most value out of their partnerships. And I always encourage that. Um, you know, I think that finding clever, interesting ways to integrate their product or service within the world of the NFL and within something that's going to be relevant to our, to our fan base is what it's all about. You know, obviously we also work on the technological side of things, you know, to ensure that we're employing, uh, all the tools that are, you know, that we use when we, when we target, when we, um, do fan journeys with our, with our fans. So there are lots of things that we do, um, in order to sort of just unlock opportunities for them, whether they be through technical innovation, whether they just be through fan experiences, or through our obviously the right players. Right, right. Again, our helmets off strategy, getting the right players with the right partners really makes a big difference.

Yeah, I'm sure. So shifting gears, we wrap up here, Tim. We're at the POSSIBLE conference. There's thousands of people, and of all the jobs everyone has here at POSSIBLE, yours might be the one that I would probably most call a dream job, at least for me, right? So you're sitting here as Chief Marketing Officer of National Football League. When you look back on your career, what are some of the right decisions do you think you made along the way to put yourself in the position that you're in today?

Well, you kind of already said it when you said, like, you know, dream jobs, because I've always gone after jobs where I first of all, I love the product or service, right? Right. Like, it was special to me, right? Like, I come from cars, gaming, and now football, right? Sports. And I happen to love all of those things. And I think that's been part of my success. I also— I never go anywhere unless I realize— I really think that I know what I have to give them. I know that I have to sort of offer them that will help them. So, I when I, when I, my first interview with the NFL, I laid out the strategy that we're still employing today. Like I knew when I, when I talked to the NFL, I knew exactly what they needed to do. And it's not, probably not surprising. And that's, that is a strategy that we continue to sort of expand upon, deepen, broaden today. And then, you know, I, I tend to sort of like, I like to go big, right? Like the NFL is an incredible platform. Right? I mean, the, the scale and the influence of the NFL is amazing. Uh, when I worked at Activision, we would come out with a game— though, I mean, the gaming world was waiting for the next Call of Duty game, right? Like, some of the, um, strategies that we had around teasing out the next game and like getting fans excited before the game would launch and then getting them into, right, to our live games, uh, throughout the year, where, you know, again, the stage was, was massive. Right? And that to me was exciting. So I think those are things I, I like. That to me, that kind of gets me going. I love, I love that. Uh, and then I love just good brand challenges. I mean, people don't realize that the NFL also has had a real brand transformation in the last 7 or 8 years along the way. Yes, a lot of challenges along the way. And, you know, and everyone including the commissioner would say, no, we made some mistakes along the way, and, um, we need to be open about that. And we know, no, you know, no, no brand, no, no one is perfect, right? But, but showing a level of self-reflection, even of contrition, is important. And then sort of very clearly and passionately laying, you know, your, your strategy and your, your journey forward so people can see it and understand it and get— and come with you. I think it's taken quite some time to sort of form some of the relationships that we've had, um, I think with our players, with our partners, with some of the music industry, for example, some of our partners in the music industry. And it takes time, right? You don't do that overnight. So, I think that journey has been an important part of our success and something I'm personally very, very proud of. So, I think having that opportunity to actually make a difference when you go someplace, having the sort of the courage to do the things that you know are right, taking some chances, being willing to take a risk. Risk, uh, and, and living with that, right? Uh, and then being open about your successes or your failures, right? So I think that's— those are all things I think that have helped me be successful and that certainly have helped me, um, build the brands and build the businesses that I've been involved with.

Absolutely. Of course, greatness, just like on the field, off the field, is in the agency of others. And I know that you've built a great team around you. When you look back at your career, as to what is the hallmark of a great teammate, especially maybe younger people who are just coming in to the fold. What are some of the attributes that are normally the case if someone's a rising star that you work with?

Yeah, you know, I think that, um, that's a really, really good question. And I think, you know, when we talk about success, certainly, um, my success has been based on building great teams. Yeah, right. And then letting them do their jobs, letting them, you know, letting them loose and letting them do great stuff. Uh, and I always, I always tell the, the, the, the, the, the people who come into our teams, like, I want you to do your best work here. I want you to have a great time doing it. I want you to do your work here, uh, and I hope you're here forever, but most of us won't be. So, you know, while you're here, let's have a great time. Let's actually enjoy it. We're in marketing, for goodness sake. Let's actually have a good time and enjoy it, uh, and let's do some great stuff that hasn't been done before. I think that those who have great ambitions, who actually want to do, uh, stuff that hasn't been done before, um, that, that, that understand the power of creativity, that understand the power of creativity and technology coming together— those things are very important. Important. But I think maybe most important is how they work with others. And I don't mean just in the marketing team, like how they work with others across the different parts of the organization, as well as our, our core partners, is absolutely critical. I mean, that we can't do anything at the NFL in particular if we don't work closely with our colleagues, right? That's the key to our success. And, and so, you know, understanding You know why it's so important to have somebody else be successful, not just yourself, but have somebody else be successful and help them be successful is, is so important. And I want our teams to be the most well-liked, more most valued teammates in the entire NFL, as well as our partners. You talked about the importance for our partners, whether they be our corporate partners or broadcast partners. I want all of them to say like, hey, those guys in the NFL marketing team, they're awesome. You know, right there, they're really incredible partners and they want to help us. They work hard to help us be successful. And to me, that ultimately makes you stronger. And of course, it builds a level of trust and esteem that is invaluable.

Yeah, absolutely. So, to wrap up here today, Tim, we always ask our guests here at the podcast if there's a saying or mantra that they feel defines their professional journey to date. And just wondering what might come to mind for you.

Oh man, that's— I don't know that I have a mantra. I mean, the reality is I've just always just gone for it. Yeah, like I, I started out— actually, I didn't even start in marketing as a young person. I was an actor. Really?

Yeah, I was kind of like an actor, I think.

Uh, well, thank you.

I think you ever get— you think you ever get back to your old acting days?

You never know. You never know. Maybe someday. Um, but I, you know, then I went off and I spent many years traveling around the world working as an actor in Tokyo, and I was I drove tractors in the Middle East and I worked on oil rigs in Scandinavia and I did all kinds of stuff, right? And so I just decided to just explore and be curious and just go for it. I was working at Goodby, Silverstein Partners when they were just winning every award there was to win and they were at the top of their game. They still are a great agency, but they were at the top of their game in the '90s. And I decided just to go off to Europe and just see what I could do, right? And I stayed there for 12 years and then came back to the US and worked for Volkswagen. So I just made these big leaps that just to me seem like exciting and fun.

And were you ever scared?

Um, scared in a good way, you know, a healthy level of fear.

Yeah.

Uh, and I think that that's fueled me. It's allowed me to— enabled me maybe to, to do things that, um, I couldn't have done otherwise, and maybe that haven't been done before. Uh, I'm proud of— there's a lot of firsts I've done in marketing, and that to me is part of the fun about being in marketing. Right? So, um, you know, and the whole art and science of marketing and bringing that together has also been a part of my success. And again, it takes courage. I think art takes courage, right? And obviously you need to have everything kind of come together, uh, with the businesses and, you know, the commercial side of things. But anyway, I think, yeah, just going for it has really fueled my success, and, and hopefully will continue to do so.

Awesome. Well, I'm glad that we went for it to ask you to join the podcast. This was a fantastic episode, and I can't wait for our audience to hear it. So thank you so much for taking time.

Thank you, I really appreciate it.

On behalf of Susan and I, we team— thanks again to Tim Ellis, EVP and CMO of the National Football League, for joining us today here live at the POSSIBLE conference in Miami. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, see you soon. Take care.