PepsiCo’s Mark Kirkham on AI, Brand Relevance & Global Marketing

Up today, we're super excited to welcome Mark Kirkham to the show. Mark, CMO at PepsiCo International Beverages based over in Dublin, Ireland. Um, Mark's been at PepsiCo for nearly 15 years now. Really excited to dig in. Mark, thanks so much for joining today.

Hey Matt, thanks for having me. Look forward to the chat.

Absolutely. So, you know, one of the most common recurring themes that we see here at the podcast is so many people who have risen to prominence in the marketing field cut their teeth, so to speak, at P&G. And, uh, your background is no different. Tell us about your time at P&G and what were some of the key learnings you were able to extract from that experience?

Look, I think it's, it's a, a great testament to P&G, to all the people who've kind of come out of the ranks. Um, I actually wasn't born there. I didn't grow up there. I, I came out of the Gillette acquisition. I was literally recruited by Gillette and hired by P&G back in 2005, 2006. And I worked most of my career on the, on what they call the legacy Gillette businesses, Braun, Duracell, you know, some of the Gillette work. And I think the one thing that you can, you can always give P&G credit. I mean, they were the first brand manager company in the world. They invented the role back in the day. But what it, what it, the focus on brand building, the, the key fundamentals, the, the focus on teaching and, and training, I think is a foundation that, you know, a lot of marketers would get in, in grad school. Some marketers would get in just different experiences. And it was a very traditional approach to kind of brand management and brand building skill. And I took a lot from that. I think the other interesting thing is if you go back and now we're talking almost 20 years ago, The world has also changed a lot, right? And so the type of experience and the type of marketers developed, the type of companies people are coming from is so much more diverse. But I think all of us who spent any time at P&G, whether they were, you know, grew up in the system, grew up in different parts of P&G around the world, or they, they were, you know, part of an acquisition. There's just something about the learning agenda, the training, and, and the kind of core focus on brand building that I think has helped many of us throughout our careers.

Yeah, for sure. And when you talk about brand management and brand building, you know, one thing that struck me in recent years, just that the notion of brand obviously is changing. As you mentioned, marketing itself and the entire world that we play in has changed so much. Is brand more important now or less important now than it was when you entered P&G 20 years ago?

I think, I think brand is more important than it ever has been. The, the question isn't, is brand important, is how to make brands important. Or said differently, how to make brands relevant. I think in, in the early stages of my career and over the history of kind of traditional CPG marketing, you know, the brand stood alone and the brand was the message and the mediums were more direct and, and it was simpler, right? Yeah. And you think about how brands engage and, and, and drive relevance today. And I think about the portfolio I manage at PepsiCo. It is far more complex. It is far more complicated. It is, far more interesting in many ways in terms of how we engage. So I think the role of the brand and what brands stand for and how brands can build relationships and drive relevance with consumers is probably more important today because there are so many different channels, distractions, competitors that really change the landscape much more than it was even 20 years ago. Uh, it's, and it's more how, how do you build the relationship with brands today? Than maybe you did, you know, 10, 15, 25 years ago?

Yeah, I mean, you think about the barriers to create attention, and, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. When I was growing up, you know, the advent of the cable TV was a big deal, and, you know, that the, the only way that you could really create mass scale was, you know, getting heavy rotation on a clear channel radio station, or obviously being on one of the big TV networks, et cetera. Individuals did not have the ability to have a megaphone. And smaller brands didn't. So really, the airwaves were dominated by large brands, and they got larger and larger, and many of them are still the largest brands today. Is, is it possible for new brands to— new mega brands to be created in this world where there is such fragmentation?

Well, I think, I think the barriers to entry for brands is, is much lower than it was in the, in the old days. I'm a Gen Xer as well, um, and I think the traditional, you know, build an ad, create a key visual, buy some media to, to marketing. It's just, that's gone. It's still part of our mix, but it's not essentially all you were trained to do. So I do think it's possible, but I do think that while the barriers to entry may have gone down a bit for brands in different categories, the challenges and the skillset, and I think why, why those large-scale CPG brands like PepsiCo and Pepsi and Gatorade and, and all of our brands, have the wherewithal to stand the test of time is because we've learned to adapt. We've learned to adapt in terms of how we communicate, the channels we use, the engagement we play, you know, and, and, and, and as you said, influencers, people are brands themselves. Our partners are brands themselves. So I think the larger brands who have learned to adapt quickly and actually have found ways to connect in new ways are the ones who will actually, um, be able to, you know, really, really continue to build and, and build that kind of brand love and that relevance to consumers around the world.

Yeah, I think what's interesting is when you talk about adapting, especially in terms of how to get the message out, many a time in recent years, what adapting means is going to the areas that are dominated by the smaller players, right? If you think about a lot of the, you know, big brands that kind of came outta nowhere in the early to mid-2000s, you know, really were brands that took advantage of social media and then brands, and then larger brands were saying, oh wow, if we just keep running linear television, We're gonna get lost. You know, we need to go where the smaller businesses are. And in a lot of ways they have been able to dominate that space. But I think one of the challenges is how do you actually do something like social media or influencer content at scale, especially if you in a global position, and we can move down to your position at Pepsi. I think that customization, that execution at scale in something that was arguably built for more, hand-to-hand combat is always a challenge for larger companies and larger brands, uh, portfolios like PepsiCo.

I, I think there was a period of time where it was a challenge for everybody. I would say it's, it, it's an area, it's a space that's open to everybody. And actually having scale may actually be an advantage. You think about the number of data touchpoints we have, the number of direct-to-consumer and through partner and through, um, you know, customer touchpoints that a large-scale company has. The, the, the question isn't, can we do it? It's how do we do it in, in, in a scale way? And I think if you look at the examples, so we have capabilities that we call Demand Accelerator. We fundamentally take our own first-party data. We take our customer data. We work with third parties and partners on data. And because of the scale of our company, we can actually turn that around on our own. Instead of outsourcing personalized engines, we can actually create our own engines. We can use technology to be an enabler for scale for our brands.. And we're doing that, you know, for example, we do in Gatorade, we target athletes based on the occasions that, and the types of products that meet those occasions based on profiles we can make by triangulating data. And we're doing that in scale markets like the US, but also in develop developing markets like Latin America. And we're taking this, this combination of first party, third party, and, and, you know, uh, and partner data in many cases and actually pulling it together to create profiles. To create automated personas around how we target content. And that will allow us to flex our digital social skills and muscles. You know, even some of the programmatic that we bring in-house will allow us to actually be much more precise in messaging. And yes, while this was maybe a medium that started as kind of a low barrier to entry into the social kind of media world, it's actually become a powerful tool to drive scale, just as TV did 20, 30 years ago. So I think, I think we are at a unique point in time where I think the playing field is equal. The question is who's got the powerful brands and who's got the powerful data and capabilities to actually make the most of it at scale.

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned data cuz that, that's obviously, especially in the world of AI, the secret ingredient, you know, everybody is gonna have access to these large language models and new AI technologies. And what's gonna differentiate brands and companies in terms of how they activate is the data that they bring to the table. You know, Pepsi, it traditionally is a company that has sold its brands through big box retailers, third parties, and hasn't had the advantage of first-party data like other companies that sell direct. But I know in recent years, given the growing importance of first-party data, Pepsi's done a lot of work at getting its hands on all sorts of data. Um, first and zero-party data from your customer base. Can you talk a little bit about some of those efforts?

Yeah, if you think about it, just the move to digital and social, whether it's through your own apps, through partner apps, through existing online media platforms. While we don't have access to, to, to first-party data in all cases, we have access to, to the ability to profile, to the ability to understand behavior across platforms that we never did before. And, and if you think about how we're able to target through the right messaging, working with partners, I mean, think about some of our away from home, or we call them food service customers. We can actually do very specific deals through their customers with working with them and their data, sometimes directly having access to data, in other cases just working with shared profiles. The other thing we actually can do is actually work through aggregators. You know, think about the DoorDashes, the Grubhubs of the world. Right now, again, customers like that may not share all their data with us, but they have data that allows us to actually better target, to better look at different meal occasions and understand what's right for our brand. And then there's the data we have internally, and I'll give you a great example. We, we have a group within Gatorade called GSSI, Gatorade Sports Science Institute. It is literally the, the nutritional science and the experts within our sports nutrition field. Now they produce publicly available reports all the time through industry association, academic association, and we have tons of data and knowledge. Most recently, we took that and used AI to create an avatar. We called her Anna for the sake of giving her a name, but we are using it for education and for. And just to also kind of bring to life these reams and years of research in a really relevant way. We launched it at Sports Beach at, at Cannes a couple weeks ago. And, and this avatar literally allows you to ask simple questions. You know, hey, I'm going for a 5K today. How much, you know, how many electrolytes do you need? Or what's the best solution for me? Or what should I be thinking about my personal workout? This ability to take data, which was our data, and now be able to interact through AI and actually capture responses and actually learn by the responses that we create. Creates new ways to take, make really powerful tools and messages around research that is super consumer relevant. In the past, it would've been handed out at different forums and it would've been available online, but now we've created a way to kind of educate and engage. And I think that's how data is changing the, the engagement story for marketing.

It's interesting cuz you know, we mentioned earlier how brands are people and people are brands. And really what you're doing through an activation like this is you're really personifying the Gatorade brand and allowing people to talk to it. And I wonder what your thoughts are is like, is that the future? Or, or, and obviously we can't, um, pigeonhole into one area, but if you think about the opportunities that exist in scaling out a strategy like that where you can talk to PepsiCo and you can, uh, Pepsi brand, you can talk to Mountain Dew, uh, it, you know, based upon whatever genre or type of consumer it goes after and get information and bring the content and brand to life. That seems like a fascinating approach.

Look, I, I think, I think the world will continue to evolve in a, in a, in a more automated space. Yeah. But behind each one of those ideas and automations are real people. Sure. And I think that's the one thing that, you know, in the, in the debate around AI, you know, creativity comes from ideas. That are concepted, you know, not spit back to you in ChatGPT. And, and I do believe that as we evolve, as we become more integrated in terms of creative development and using technology and tools like AI, what I ultimately believe, think about when chatbots first started. Think about when voice recognition for, remember when that first time you called an airline and it, and, and a, and an automated voice asked you for your information. And we know, we know that behind that you would always hit, you know, star, 0000. Yeah. Yeah. To get to a person. So I think, I think the reality is technology enables us to be more efficient. Technology enables us to be more accurate, but technology is only as powerful as the people and the creativity behind it. And the example I just gave you is a perfect example of great science done by real people, brought to life through an amazing institute called GSSI and brought to life through technology. So more people have access to it. They can learn more, they can educate, they can learn about their own health and wellness, but also We do it in a way that feels, you know, while it may be AI or it may be an avatar, it actually feels like you're, you're having a conversation. And I think this, the idea of having conversations of brands, that's what technology enables because, you know, one-way conversations through traditional media have a role to play at driving awareness and scale. Sure. But what they can't do is build that engagement and that relationship. And you see that more and more as we look to leverage both new platforms, new channels, and new technologies.

Yeah, when you talk about scalability, I mean, what used to mean bringing a brand to life through personification was a brand's Twitter handle where you would kind of reply. And we went through that whole era where brands were talking to me on Twitter. Now this is so much more scalable. And I think what makes that activation that you just described possible is the fact that you had GSSI. So you had all this data, um, and, and kind of this rich treasure trove of insights that you were able to sort of unpack into essentially a brain that you can impart into wisdom into consumers. And I think what I'm learning over time is the brands that have invested over time in research, in custom content, well, now they can tap into that to make their AI applications really unique and critical to their brands.

No, 100%. And it's also, it's also part of storytelling. Just another quick example. And it's, it's different. It's another great example. About 2, 3 months ago, we, we, we created a piece of content that was based on a, a grassroots program, what we call Confidence Coaches. Now, Confidence Coaches, we, we have a program called 5v5. It's a 5-a-side soccer or football tournament. It's had 151,000 kids participate in the last 5 or 7 years. And this, we, we were giving confidence to young kids. We know that 40% of most young athletes quit because of a variety of things, you know, cost, safety, but, but actually confidence is one of the biggest ones. And it's even worse for young female athletes. And it was an amazing footballer, played for England, played for Arsenal. And she always told the story about how when she was 9 years old, she had to cut her hair to play with the boys. Okay. Now you can tell that story and people can relate to it. And, but until you picture it, until in this case, we use technology and AI to recreate Rachel Yankey's 9-year-old self so she could have a conversation about the barriers that she had and the confidence that she had to overcome. And then let her tell her story to other young girls as they play sport. That is leveraging technology and data, but it all started with a human-centric idea. Yeah. You know, Rachel had a real story and we just made it more engaging. You know, we just made it a different angle to her. I mean, when I watch, when I was with her and she's watching this for the first time, you see the emotional connection that even technology can have, but it could not have gone anywhere if we didn't have that story to begin with. So technology amplified creativity. It created a new way to tell stories. But ultimately when you're trying to build that emotional connection, it still has to be that authentic kind of feel it in the heart kind of moment.

Yeah. Well, it is the heart, right? The, but while AI might be the brain, the heart is the human component. It's the emotional component. It's the component where you don't feel like you're talking to a robot or pressing zero a million times to get to a human. If you can inject both, right, then you really win. You're bringing the brand along for a story that creates engagement like we've never seen before.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So you've been at PepsiCo now, um, since 2010, so it's 15 years. And as you mentioned, a whirlwind of change that's occurred over the last decade and a half. Talk to us about your journey at PepsiCo and what has been so appealing about that organization that's made you stay there and, and, and rise up the ranks to where you are today as, uh, CMO of International Beverages.

I think the first thing I'll say, and it, it, it may sound cliché, but it's 100% true, is culture. Um, Culture defines not just a job and not just an office. It defines the community in which you work. I joined in 2010. I left P&G, came to PepsiCo, and I went into innovation in the US. And, you know, the reality is innovation in a CPG company like PepsiCo, actually, it's a much more fast turning than you realize because of the category dynamics that we play in. But very, very consumer-oriented, very, very system-driven, you know, really focusing on how do you get an idea to market as quickly as possible. And that to me was, was a really exciting time because you were in this big company doing innovation, some of them big, some of them small, but you had a cycle that was, was pretty dynamic. But then around 2012, we created the global groups, which we were originally, I was originally based here and it was actually the first time that PepsiCo had really taken a global approach., in terms of marketing and brand building. Um, and, and when I say that we hadn't structured for it like many companies do, you know, the P&G for world, uh, example, or, or even, um, you know, when I was on the Gillette side, very global in nature. And, and what we saw was how you can actually learn from and build from the different dynamics around the world, you know? And so I spent a lot of time, you know, from 2012 to 2016 running big global brands like Pepsi and, Mountain Dew and, and really understanding the different dynamics around the world.

And, and because it was— Out of purchase, out of the purchase.

Originally out of purchase. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and out of New York. And then, and then what I actually got the opportunity in 2016 to go abroad, not only I had lived abroad a couple different times, I'd gone to school in the UK. I got to spend time really going deep. And so for me, the culture then goes into understanding the markets, their market cultures, the market dynamics. And this is the, the culture of the people. The culture of the business and the, the, the world in which those brands operate. And that's where you have to figure out the balance between global scale and local relevance, especially in today's world when digital and, and channels are, are so much more locally presented. You know, we talked about personalization, really understanding the dynamics for Mountain Dew in India. You know, Mountain Dew is the second brand for Mountain Dew in the world is India. It is the biggest soft drink we have. It's massive, massive business for us.. But the dynamics there, it's not the same as what you had when I was a kid in, in New Bern, North Carolina. And, and, and so you learn to understand the role that these brands play, the role that the product plays. And so, you know, from 2016 and beyond, I've been basically working in international roles and, and came back and then took over our juice and energy businesses. I've, I've taken over CMO for the last 2 and a half years. And what's made it really amazing, and it's always, you're always learning. Because every time there's a new dynamic, there's, there's a new market, there's a new competitor, there's, there's a new category trend. And, and when you look at it, there is, there is no average. You want to scale to be globally kind of consistent, and especially for iconic brands like Pepsi, Gatorade, Mountain Dew, and others. But you need to find the way to be local relevant. So you do that through influencers. You do that through local relevant messaging. You do that through, adapting communication to work in different ways. You do it some cases through innovation, but ultimately it still has to be the same brand. So the, the challenge you have as a global marketer is how can I drive global scale? Because you got these amazing, you know, multi-billion dollar powerful brands with long histories and really unique distinctive assets, but making them really relevant whether you're in Lucknow in India or you're in São Paulo, Brazil, or you're in, you know, Chennai. You've gotta find a way to, to kind of find that balance. And that to me is one of the most exciting parts and why I've, you know, really enjoyed the last, like I said, I've been 8 and a half years outside the US and it's, it's a really powerful learning experience that ultimately, you know, you can take anywhere you go. And when you take that learning, it doesn't matter if you take it back to a domestic role or you take it to a local role, understanding those nuances, I think makes you a stronger marketer. And last thing I'll say is at the heart of everything is human beings. You know, one of the things that I've also learned in taking so much, you know, it's so special to me is just getting to talk to and learn from consumers around the world. You know, understanding, you know, the delivery driver in Seoul, you know, the mom from Mumbai, you know, the restaurateur in Mexico City, whatever it is, I've learned so much about human beings as well as what it means to be a marketer just by being close to those people throughout the last, uh, 15 years of PepsiCo.

Yeah. I mean, what an amazing experience. I mean, you speak about it sort of matter-of-factly, but the decision that you made in 2016 to go from a senior director of marketing role in Purchase New York, uh, for Pepsi to go to London to be head of marketing innovation. I mean, that's a big decision, right? To actually move across the pond and move out of the United States. Like, what went behind a decision like that? And what were some of the biggest surprises you encountered when you started working overseas? You talked about all the great things that were unlocked, but were there any surprises or things that you had to deal with?

So first off, I'm half English. My dad's English, so going— and I went to school in the UK, so there was a little bit of a softer landing, I guess. The second thing I'll say, I would encourage anyone that has the ability and the opportunity to go abroad, whether in uni or, you know, when you're, when you're, you know, when you're a professional, you should. Why? Because it opens your eyes up to new dynamics, you know, and, and it's different business dynamics. It's, it's different cultural dynamics, retail, whatever. And for me personally, it was also the first time I'd, I'd worked internationally and traveled and, and experienced so much before. It was the first time I brought my family. And so it was great to bring my family, have them experience the culture, experience something that was part of who I am and ultimately who they are, but also to learn about, and, and, and the English culture and the US culture are, are more similar, but because we were based there, they were able to travel to different parts of the world, you know, whether it was, you know, the Middle East or whether it was, you know, Thailand, what have you. Now on the business side, the, the interesting thing is you learn, you know, especially when you come from the US, the US is so big and broad and vast. And there's so much opportunity here to learn. But you realize that in every country, no matter how big or small, there's so much opportunity for your brands. And, and in Europe, some of our brands are more challenger brands. So how you can act differently and how you can approach channels differently and how you can approach brand building differently because of those local dynamics is probably the first thing you have to adapt to. You know, what is different about West Europe versus East Europe, the UK versus Italy? What What are the category? How can I still build this campaign that resonates across these different market types? And Europe in particular, again, a great example where people average Europe to being the EU or Europe. Europe is vastly dynamic even just within itself. Right? So I think, I think you learn also how to stretch yourself. I think one of the things you go in there thinking you understand things and then you realize, oh my God, these people have, you know, forgotten more than, you know, than you've ever learned. So you have to listen. You have to take the time to immerse with consumers, retailers. We also operate in a franchise environment in many parts outside the US. So I work with bottlers around the world. So my partners, in many cases, I'm 2, 3 steps away from the end consumer. So actually your skills of building relationships with bottlers and retailers and media companies, all of that just opens your eyes up to a whole new dynamic. And, and for me, it, it was kind of something I always wanted to do and actually really get your hands dirty. But at the same time is how you take those skills that you can learn sometimes in a smaller market and then ultimately bring it back to bigger markets around the world. And so how we can lift and scale and lift and adapt ideas. I think that's the power of having these kind of experiences because it's different, but also it's the same. Yeah. And the sameness is what, you know, this is what brand building's all about. Understanding your consumer, understanding your brand, and knowing where you have the right to succeed in an authentic way.

That's right. Couldn't agree more with that. And, and, you know, global nuances aside, going from market to market, are there any kind of macro trends that are impacting the categories in which you play and that you have your eye on moving forward as we enter the back half of 2024?

Yeah, I mean, one of the things, especially as I look internationally about my time in Europe, I mean, our no sugar business, we're over two-thirds no sugar, no and low sugar in Europe. And that was something we were very focused on. The category dynamics are different. Consumer dynamics were changing, in some case faster than other parts of the world. So it was a, it was a great opportunity to really learn, you know, both from a portfolio standpoint, from a consumer standpoint, what is the right set of products that they are looking for? You know, our, our, what we call it Pepsi Max in the UK, but Pepsi Zero Sugar, it's an amazing brand. It's been over 30 years, but we made some really, really important choices. You know, we went all in 100% focusing on just zero sugar communication. You know, we help build the category in many markets. We got leadership in many markets versus in other parts of the world. You know, it's a smaller piece of our portfolio. That learning you can extract and take it to other parts of the world. Yes, the context might be different, but the foundation is the same. Understanding the consumer, what are their overall kind of taste trends? What are their overall behavior category consumption trends? So I think zero sugar is a great example of something we've taken. I think the other thing is, is how you actually You know, think about the retail landscape. You know, when you start to think about international markets, you have to think about what we call traditional trade. We're talking about bodegas, small shops up and down the street, how you communicate consumers when you're literally in a stall this big. How do you actually, you know, we build great big campaign messages, but it doesn't matter unless it lands on that shelf., you know, in that small stall in that country that's far away. And so I think understanding the, the market dynamics of, of how do you, you know, how do you think about marketing differently? You know, I've talked to one of our bottlers in Pakistan. He's saying, you know, he, his customers all get everything on their phone. And, and we're talking about customers who may be much older than, you know, we think they're targeting. We're, we're, we're literally engaging consumers a new way. We have a partnership with AmBev in Brazil. They do almost most of their ordering through a platform they call Bees. It's amazing how they're interacting with all their shopkeepers. So there's an opportunity to really learn from technology differences in different parts of the world, category dynamics, and also sustainability. I mean, living in Europe, we've really been focused on some of the challenges and the regulations and sustainability. It allows us to really learn and lift and shift to other parts of the world. And we've done some great progress, you know, in going to 100% RPET and actually really focusing on reuse and recycle. These are the types of things where when you live in certain parts of the world or you see different dynamics, you fundamentally change maybe your perception of how you approach a challenge or a problem as a marketer.

Absolutely. And so it sounds like your role is fairly complex with even different business models that you're operating, whether it's a franchise model or the more traditional model, which you have here in North America. Given all that, how do you spend your time both when you're kind of working in the business and on the business? And what I mean by that is there's obviously a portion of the time that you have to spend, given how much global knowledge you have, about just learning and keeping your ear to the ground and understanding the consumer markets. And obviously you're operating a team and you have numbers to hit, et cetera, for your business. So given all that, where are you investing your time and where are you investing elements of personal growth to make sure that you obviously continue to develop as a professional?

You brought up a key point, which is learning. And I made a comment once that my team reminds me, said, The day I stopped learning is the day I stopped being a marketer. And, and the reason, and I mean that, right? Because as a marketer, you should be fundamentally curious. You should be always looking to understand your consumer better. You should always be under— understand the impact that has on your business. And I do mean this. And because of that, you have to still have, even at my level and in my busy schedule, you need to take time to understand the consumer, talk to consumers. And I think every one of us needs to always carve out some time for spending time with consumers. And sometimes consumers could be your friends, your friends' kids, you know, it, it could be anyone, but as a consumer, 'cause ultimately we're all consumers at the end of the day. But, but more importantly, we're all human beings and we all have different wants, needs, and contexts of the, the world around us. The second thing is you also gotta carve out time to think. And I don't think we do enough of that. I, I know I have to, I, I color code my calendar. I've done it for a long time. I do it by brand or by different type of business meetings. But, but I also use the, the color black and I, I block out and it says block, but that's my thinking time. You need to make sure you carve out time to think because not that you're not always constantly thinking, but that dedicated moment, you know, that hour, that half hour, even 15 minutes sometimes will allow you to kind of challenge your perception. Yeah. Maybe open up to new ideas. Maybe, maybe look at a different category for a moment that you hadn't thought about. So I think carving out time. The other thing I said, and this kind of ties to the earlier conversation, you gotta get into the market. You gotta understand, and this isn't just about understanding the humans and the business, but the teams, you know, really understanding the culture of the teams you work with. What drives them? What motivates them? You know, what worries them? You know, what's going on in their world that you may not be able to help in everything you do, but even just understanding, having the context and being able to step back and say, I understand the challenges or the opportunities that you face. How can I help? That's a big play. And I think that you have to bring that outside in. So for example, in our office in Dublin, we have 32 different nationalities. Okay. Our core team's 85 people. So 32 nationalities and 85 people. Wow. That dynamic creates such an amazing environment for my teams, people from the US to Pakistan to Russia to, you know, Latin America, Venezuela. Like you've got so many chances to interact with people from all over the world in a floor, you know, that's, you know, the size of a football field, you know, and so having that ability to learn from each other, share is really, really important. And then the last thing I say is just be open and create opportunities for people, you know, to share. And I think we are always busy, but sometimes you gotta step back and just, ask a question around, hey, what are you guys up to? What are you working on? What is the biggest challenge of the day? Give people that open door to come to you because we're all busy, but making the time to understand, you know, what, regardless of level someone's working on or where they want to go in their career. I mean, the smaller the office, the better. I'm lucky, you know, we've got about 3,000 people throughout Ireland, but our core international business team is, marketing is just about 80, 85. But just having that time. So, you know, you're really making the time organizing, you know, your schedule in a way to make sure you have to think, be with consumers and your markets. Those are the things that I think make you successful. I think if you do that and you know your business, all the other things, you know, the, the, all the leadership meetings, all the kind of more business-focused things, it just makes you have more valuable in those sessions if you do the other things.

Yeah, absolutely. And we talked a lot about AI just as we wrap up here. And, you know, how it's going to impact so many aspects of society and obviously the marketing world. One part I think it should be impacting, and it'll probably take a while for it to impact, is just how younger people are educated, right? Because the notion of memorizing things for a test and regurgitating it is going to be a skill set that's far less valuable in this new AI-driven world than maybe in the past. And so the question I have for you is, what should young people whether they're college age or later in their high school years, if they wanna end up as a CMO one day like yourself, what should they be focused on learning and developing their skillset at earlier phases of their career or their, or their journey?

Oh, I would say don't let a computer do the learning for you. It'd be the first thing I would say, right? I mean, and this is not a conversation, this is not a com— comment about AI. It's a comment of, of what does it take to truly learn? You know, when, when, when Cliff Notes came out, that was like the end of reading a book. That didn't turn out to be the case, right? So when, when Google came out, that was going to make, you know, researching easy. You know, people still go to libraries. You know, when the mobile phone came out, oh, that was going to kill the TV. Still, people are watching TV. And AI is an enabler for so many things. Many companies around the world, we've been using AI in the back house, back of house for years, right? Having a look at logistics, having a look at forecasting and planning. But now I think the interesting thing is it's impacting on the front end of consumers. And so I think it's, you know, I look at my, you know, college-age or soon-to-be college-age daughter. She's a senior in high school. And look, technology helps her hone her skills. But studying, experiencing life, running her clubs, doing all those things, which by the way, universities care a ton about, is as important, I'd argue almost more important than any tool or technology that helps you, you know, maybe understand something. In a less linear way. I think, I think style of learning has changed a lot too. You know, we, we had a very different style when we grew up. Uh, very, it was probably more structured. It was probably more linear. It probably was more memorization. But these are actually students who now through experience and because of technology, they can go watch a surgery via Zoom. You know, my daughter literally watched the surgery via Zoom during COVID in Ireland, in LA, someone was doing a surgery. And that's what inspired her to become a doctor. Now she wants to be a doctor because of things like that. So, you know, that technology enabled something that couldn't have existed when you and I grew up, but it didn't replace the experience or the kind of, you know, curiosity that my daughter has or that the technology enabled. So it will, like any other technology before, maybe this one's a little bit different. Maybe this one offers different characteristics and maybe allows for more powerful outputs, but actually the inputs are as important, if not more important, than the outputs when it comes to these things.

That's fantastic advice. And, and, and I agree with you across the board in terms of just the core drivers that make somebody successful. And you can't lose that no matter what the technology is. So it's almost like the more things change, the more they stay the same, right? And that's sort of the best way to summarize. Exactly. So, so, so to, to finish up, uh, Mark, and this has been a great discussion, I can't wait for our listeners to hear it. Is there a, a quote or a mantra that you like to live by? You, you shared so much wisdom with us today that I don't know if you could bottle it up in a sentence or not, but I figured we'd give it a try.

Look, I think I said it earlier about this idea of the day you stop learning is the day you stop being a marketer. I mean, it's not even just about being a marketer, you know, it's the day you stop learning. I don't think you'll ever be the person that you could ultimately be. I think also finding that kind of global and local relevance, how you find global scale, local relevance is really tough. And then there's, there's a, there's a, and I'll always give credit to as a writer, James Curry wrote a book about the All Blacks and what, what businesses learn the All Blacks. And it's a mantra that the All Blacks, the New Zealand rugby team has, which is always leave the shirt in a better place than where you found it. And it's a sport analogy, but it can go through anything in life. It can go as a kid, it can go as a leader, it can go as, as a teacher. This idea that, you know, we have this amaz— I have this amazing opportunity to run these amazing brands.. And I'm just trying to make them better for the next person who gets to take them over after me. And, and if I'm successful in doing that and I learn along the way, I've had a hell of a career.

I love that. We're gonna leave it with that. Thank you so much, uh, for joining us today, Mark. And I really cannot wait for our audience to hear, uh, from your journey and your wisdom. So thanks again.

Thanks, Matt.

Appreciate it. On behalf of the Suzy and Edwige team, thanks again to Mark Kirkham, CMO at PepsiCo International Beverages, for joining us today. Be sure to subscribe, rate, review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, see you soon, everyone. Take care.

Hey!