The Advertising Playbook for Insurance Brands with Garth Knutson, Chief Marketing Officer at Aflac

The thing that gets me excited to wake up every morning is that we're working together to do something for the betterment of society.

To thrive in a rapidly evolving landscape, brands must move at an ever increasing pace. I'm Matt Britton, founder and CEO of Suzy. Join me and key industry leaders as we dive deep into the shifting consumer trends within their industry, why it matters now, and how you can keep up. Welcome to the Speed of Cult. Today we're going to be speaking with Garth Knudsen, newly appointed as Chief Marketing Officer at Aflac. Garth, how are you today?

I'm doing great, Matt. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining. We're big fans of the brand at Suzy and really interested in hearing kind of about your vision for the brand and where you think it's going, et cetera. So let's get started by hearing a little bit about your background. If you spent most of your career in the agency world, would love to hear how that has gone and how it's contributed to your role today at Aflac.

Yeah, you know, it's. And this is. As a little kid, like, my goal in life was to wear a suit and carry a briefcase to work every day. I didn't know what that was, but, like, that's how I pictured myself like I was going to be. Be a businessman. Part of it was probably my dad was an attorney and he wore a briefcase or he wore a suit and carried a briefcase to work every day. And then as I got older, I started thinking, I want to be a stockbroker. That's the thing that looks like a cool life. I want to live on Wall street, drive a Porsche, all of that, live the big lifestyle. And then going into college, I was a business major at Washington State University. Realized that I still do love business. I'm horrible at math, but I really like the communications courses that I had to start taking. So I think I was a junior and I switched to. To advertising and communications at Washington State University. And they've got a great program for that there. So it really worked out well for me. And then coming out of that, I heard about an unpaid internship at west coast agency called Wong Duty, which I believe you're familiar with, you've done some work with in the past, amazing creative agency. And at this time, this is 2002, 2003, they were like, it. You open ad week and there's like, campaigns in there all the time for long duty and they're winning canned gold. L. So how I got there, like, I don't Know, I really feel like I lucked out. But my manager at the time, Jeff Hasson, took a leap of faith on me because it was an unpaid PR internship with the PR department, not on the creative advertising side. And I had zero PR experience, didn't take a single PR class, but I had the drive and I wanted to work at that agency. I lived in Seattle, that was the best agency that I could find. So I ended up being there for about three years. The two biggest things that happened. At one point Pat Doody, one of the co founders of the agency, came up to me and said, do you want to work on the advertising side? I said yes, like immediately. And he was like, all right. You know, soon after that I moved over from like down the hall from the PR side to the advertising side. And that's where I met my wife. We were actually both account people working on different accounts, but sitting next to each other in this pod of four other twenty somethings. And soon after that I was like, well, this is my girlfriend, we're dating now, we shouldn't work at the same agency. We were kind of hiding it because we thought that we would meet six blocks away after work every day to go out for dinner or whatever. So at Wong duty I had spent so much time learning great creative and this ethos that Tracy Wong has of the creative democracy and great ideas can come from anywhere. And it's seen interns pitch TV spots that got made, right? Not even creative interns. The new business intern pitches a spot that becomes national, right? Like Tracy Wong would ask everybody in the first internal for their opinion, including me, you know, who was like a young PR kid at the time. And, and to me that was really instrumental in my, my career and my growth and how I look at collaboration and creativity to then go to Wonderman and work on the Microsoft account exclusively for six years. So going from smaller regional brands, you know, uber creative, you know, winning, you know, gold effies and all that to this very historic, going back to the Mad Men days, direct response, very data driven, from art to science and B2B, you know, I wasn't doing much B2B at long duty and it really rounded out, I believe, my repertoire of marketing and my toolbox, if you will. And you know, great experience, met so many people, have so many great friends still there, you know, got to travel to New York and see Lester at 90 something years old, still sitting at his desk working away, you know, really. And that's just a learning of people who work hard and are dedicated to Something will get places right. And to just see a 90 year old guy eating a cheeseburger, you know, writing a creative brief or whatever was amazing. Then I was really missing that creative side again and wanted to get back to that. So I went back to Wong duty. They were gracious enough to have me back and I came on as an account director at that time working on a few different accounts. Papa Murphy's Pizza, which lots of people listening to this podcast will not have heard of, but it's the fifth largest pizza chain in America. But it's taken Bake Pizza, which lots of people listening to this podcast probably don't know what take and bake pizza is either. But so that was a challenge. It was like how do we use creativity to try to get people to understand this nascent category of take and bake pizza. Another just amazing great experience to go back to there. And then after that I spent shoot five years at Publicis working on the T Mobile account which that was a great experience for me because it was by far the largest, you know, we're talking a billion dollars a year in media and constantly cranking out new, new creative campaigns. I was on the creative side, not the media side but you know, worked very closely with publicist media team on that great experience because there I really got to understand the speed of retail and competitiveness and that that brand at the time, if you remember this is, this was what, 2012 or so I want to say. One John Ledger, you know, the bad, the bad boy of telecom came on and really just flipped everything on its head and created T Mobile, the UN carrier. And to me, what I learned from there, and I hope what I will take from him and that company forward as a leader in marketing is that if you're going to say something, you've got to live it not just as the brand and then the actions you take, but as a person as well. And I don't even know if anybody, at least in my 18, whatever, 20 years of doing marketing has done that to the degree at which he did. Love learning from him and going back to the retail thing. It was just a lot of fun being in the grind with our clients. We'd make spots, we'd put them on air, we'd get the asymmetrics reports three days later. Is it good? What do we got to change? And it was constant optimization and just seeing how that worked and like what's AT and T doing? All right, we gotta change. What's Verizon doing? We gotta change. Oh, Verizon did this, we're gonna go after him because we know that John's gonna be okay with that. So. Amazing experience. Somewhere along the way, maybe a year into that, and this is really where my whole career started to change. And I didn't even know it yet. I got asked to work on the AFLAC account and to lead that piece of business for Publicis. And I was thinking, man, it's an insurance company in Columbus, Georgia. I live in Seattle. It's three hours ahead. But at the time, I had been. This may be tmi, seeing a sleep doctor. I was having trouble sleeping. And I saw this guy for a year. And one of the things we did and one of the greatest things that's ever happened for me. I would recommend anybody listening to this if you have trouble sleeping, seek professional help. Change my life. I was waking up at 5am every morning and just kind of sitting around and waiting for work to start at 9, right? I had all this. This time to go. You can only watch so much CNBC and drink so much coffee. But it ended up being perfect because, you know, as an account person, you want to be working when your clients are working. So I was like, I am the. The most perfect person and all of the west coast of publicists to be running the AFLAC account because I'll be up when they're up. And you know what? And maybe I shouldn't have said this, but I'm. I'm just always an open book and kind of wear my emotions on my sleeve. I'll work from 6am Pacific to whenever the agency shuts down, which is probably 9pm So I was literally working all day. But I love the brand. I love the company, I love the clients. I love the work that we were doing. It was a very busy and sometimes stressful part of my life. But that's when I built two of the most important business relationships in my life, which one was Shannon Watkins, who was my predecessor and CMO at aflac, who now is CMO at Jordan Brand. And I know is going to do some amazing things there. So everybody watch out there. And then a man named Daryl D.C. cobbin, who has a consultancy called Brand Positioning Doctors, who Shannon and somebody else on her team had brought in at the time, who's become a dear friend and mentor. But I created this relationship with them to where Publicis stopped being the agency of record for aflac.

I always tell people, your network is everything. And a lot of people in the agency world might have said, okay, well, they're not my client. Anymore. Let me focus on the next people. And I think not enough people understand it's a long road and those relationships are everything and you never know how the future can evolve.

Exactly. You know, going back to Pat Doody, co founder of Wong Duty, he used to say, and he would say this at least once a week, relationships are everything. And I've carried that with me everywhere to the point where I can remember, Publicist is no longer working on the Aflac account. A new agency is working on it. And I got a call and I went back to working on T Mobile at this time and I got a call from the group account director at the new agency. So the competitor who took our business right and was like, hey, can you help with some production stuff that we've got? Because we're going to be shooting with the Aflac duck and Nick Saban in a couple of weeks and we could use your help and your counsel. And I said yes. And I can remember being on production with T Mobile and on the phone with my old competitor agency who took, took the business and helping them, right? But. And it wasn't because I wanted to help them. You know, I could have been like, screw you guys. But really I wanted to help the brand because I feel like once I took on that job as being the, the lead account person on the lead agency for a brand, like I'm always going to hold on to that.

It's interesting. Just. And I want to hear about, you know, how that transitioned to your role today. But, you know, one insight that popped in my head, you know, from being running an agency for 15 years is you put your heart and soul into a brand and you work on a brand for three, five, seven years and then all of a sudden one day you're told that you have to now work on a different brand and when you're on the client side, you're at least more in control of that. But there's so many politics in the agency world and other drivers that can impact that decision that you could be doing a great job and all of a sudden you're told that you can no longer work on the brand and that's hard. I don't think a lot of people in the industry, especially in the client side, understand that people in the agency world really do put their heart into the brand and act like it's their own.

Exactly. You know, and it's funny, so I mentioned Papa Murphy's Pizza, the take and bake brand. Still every year on my birthday I go to Papa, Papa Murphy's and I get a family size five meat stuffed pizza. It weighs four pounds and I eat it because I enjoyed it then and I loved the brand then and I still do do to this day and I will always be, be a customer and, and you know, cheering for them.

Yeah. So let's shift gears into your time in Affleck. So obviously you stayed close to the brand and how did you go from there to getting the role that you have today?

Yeah. So the pandemic happens and you know, there were as you know, downsizing at agencies all over the world. I was affected by that. Right about that same time I got a call from, from Shannon, the previous CMO at Aflac and she said, hey, I may have this role coming up, would you be interested? I said yes. Like there was no. And I immediately, I said yes probably before she, she, she finished the sentence and the rest is history. You know, only a few days later I was out in Atlanta at an agency briefing and you know, got to, I had the pleasure of learning from her as a client and I think at that point already she was mentoring me a little bit, but then working for her directly every day on the phone all the time to be able to get that mentorship and learn from, in my opinion, one of the greatest marketers in America was amazing. And there's no way I could have, could have said no to that, even though it's going back to a brand that's 2,000 miles away and three hours ahead. But luckily that sleep doctor paid off and I was still waking up at 5am every morning.

Sure did. So here we are 20 years after you started in the agency world and you're CMO of a nationally recognized brand and frankly an iconic brand. Are you where you always hoped you'd be? Was this kind of your goal throughout your career or is this something that you had never really even imagined?

Great question. There are, I think, two places I thought that I would be. I already told you, when I was a little kid I was going to be a stockbroker. That was the one place I was going to be. I realized pretty early that wasn't going to work out because my math skills weren't that great. And the other was owning a small independent agency, you know, a regional type thing like a Wong duty or working, you know, managing an office for a large, you know, a publicist, a DDB, you know, a 72 and sunny, that type of thing. So this client side was never something that I thought about.

Yeah, I'm sure. And now here you are and you know, you are, you know, in charge of this brand that, you know, obviously has had such a massive impact, in my opinion, on how the advertising industry itself has evolved. I mean, here's a company and the insurance category and we'll get into it, is one that I think many people don't understand is so I think dependent on advertising to create an identity. It's one of those few products where even banks you can walk into and you can see a retail location or, you know, McDonald's, you can walk in and see it. And obviously there's physical products, but insurance is largely an intangible thing thing. And the way that people, you know, gain the association through the brand is through the advertising, which is why your category invests so heavily in advertising. And I think it really is a core differentiator on who wins and who isn't. Correct.

Yeah. And it's ridiculous. And, and we talk about this all the time. Our CEO even talks about it. Geico, for example, spends. Yeah. More than 25 times in media what Aflac spends. And that number, that number baffles people.

Because they would say that's number shocking.

To me because we, our awareness is so high, it's currently sitting at 80. 80. And that's all due to a risk, a very calculated risk that our CEO took back in 1999. The company has been around for a long time. Aflac. We created the industry of supplemental insurance. There have only ever been two CEOs. And our current CEO, Dan Amos, he is the second longest running Fortune 500 CEO in America, second only to Warren Buffett. So that says something. This is a world where people don't get to keep their jobs that often. We all know about CMOs and CMOs have a life of two years. So I guess three years you probably won't have me back because I won't be doing this again. But he's done this for over 30 years. But going back to 1999, Aflac has a brand awareness of 10%. That is not good when you're trying to sell insurance throughout the nation in 50 states. So he had a pitch and he went to a number of agencies and said, I need people to remember the name Aflac. That was essentially the brief. People don't know our name. I need people to know it. One of the agencies involved was Kaplan Thaler, founded by one of the most brilliant, iconic people in the US if not the world, Advertising, Linda Kaplan Thaler. She had a creative team working for her at the time, Tom and Eric. And they're Pitching the business and the way that Dom and Eric have told me. They got into a feud, as many creative teams do. A couple of days before a pitch, one of them storms out of the office. This is in New York. They're walking down, walking down through Central Park. And the guy's yelling, aflac. Aflac. Affleck. And people are looking at me. He's like, crazy. Why is this guy yelling Aflac? What is Aflac? Maybe one in 10 of them knew what he was yelling, but they probably still thought he was crazy. And then it came to him. That sounds like a duck. Runs back upstairs, tells his partner, I've got it. They tell. They tell Linda. Linda buys into it. And so they pitch it. There were two campaigns that ended up getting tested. One was the campaign starring Ray Romano, who. And this is the time of Everybody Loves Raymond being on tv. And it's a huge story. It tested really well. Like, it would have done well. But this Aflac duck campaign tested through the roof and numbers that. It almost felt like the data was wrong, that it tested so well with consumers. But Dan Amos, being so great at taking calculated risks, said, well, we'll just put it on air. We'll run it once. Also, this is Y2K, right? So we ran it New Year's Eve. Media was cheap because everybody thought the world was going to end. So nobody wanted to run commercials that day. That next day, January 1st, more people went to aflac.com in that one day than the whole previous year combined. Like, wow. And then, so now, within three years, awareness goes from 10% to over 90, which at the time, that was on par with a brand like Adidas. Right? Like, everybody knows Adidas. Now all of a sudden, everybody knows Aflac because of this duck and this risk that our CEO took and that an amazing agency had the guts to pitch, and the rest is history. And sales followed. You mentioned, you know, the. The amount of advertisers out there and they're so reliant on advertising. I just mentioned one Geico, then it's like Allstate Progressive, you know, usa. And you start to add those up, and you're at like, I don't know, 5 billion, close to $10 billion. Right. And we're. We're a fraction of that. So it is. It is a blessing to have the type of brand awareness that we have. And it's. It's my job to protect that with a fraction of the budget.

Yes, let's talk about that. Yeah. So, you know, you're the steward of a brand obviously has great heritage and history and has, you know, created essentially an iconic brand in the US through its advertising, largely, though, through television. Right. And now we're in a world where there's a new generation. You have millennials who I imagine are your core buyer, who grew up with the Internet in the household, unlike Gen Xers like us. And now you have millennials coming up, Gen Z coming up next, who you know are people who grew up with a phone in the household and know they're not watching TV the way that Gen Xers did. And, you know, you're not going to be able to continue to build the brand through television, although I know it's probably a sizable party for overall media mix. But I imagine that you have to now start to shift up a little bit the way that you look at going to market. So what are your thoughts on that and what are your plans moving forward, given the, you know, the historic success yet, what you have to do moving forward to continue?

We've been very fortunate. We work with Spark Foundry on the media side, and they've had us at the forefront of the shift from linear to digital for a while. And we have the data to show that we've gotten there faster and are further along than your average brand. So that's great. And I heard there was a gentleman on your podcast the other day from Budweiser, and he was talking about how fractured the media environment is. So we can't just make a couple of TV spots and put them in all the places they need to go. We need, we need all of these different formats and sizes and versions and lengths. And that is a challenge, you know, especially in an inflationary market where the cost of media is going up. Marketing budgets oftentimes, including mine, are not going up. So we have to do more with less. We have built out a pretty amazing in house studio now comprised of 20 people who have done national advertising, doing testimonial work, doing digital, doing social. Actually, just, just built, literally this week in the office, a duck house. So we now have a house with a living room, a kitchen, a bathroom, and a bedroom for the Aflac duck. So we can start creating all of this content we need with resources in house, literally in house, in a house that we built in our office.

Does that mean, generally speaking, relying less on creative agencies for production of creative and you're more focused on the media, or how's that, how's that impacting for.

The majority of the. For the scale? We just need it because we still very much and maybe always will rely on your traditional creative agencies for our television advertising and maybe some of the more high profile video assets and social.

Gotcha forever green stuff that you need to pump out, whether it's in social media or display, mobile, whatever. You just need that continuity.

We've also brought PR in house now and still work with a great PR agency. But it's not marketing generalists working with a PR agency, it's PR people working with a PR agency. So we can do, we can do more of everything in house. And again, we just have to. Because we're not, we're not getting any more money. And inflation is real. It's not just the, the cost of eggs and gas like media inflation. The, the amount that we have to pay for the eyeballs is, is really getting, I don't want to say out of hand because the publishers have to support their businesses as well. But it's getting tough and for that reason earned media is becoming more and more important as well. Like what are the things that we can have little to no investment that can have a big app impact and help continue to maintain and protect that brand awareness?

Absolutely. And I know that you invest heavily during the football season and you have a big activation right now with Deion Sanders and Nick Saban. Why is kind of the football season an important time of year for you? And tell us a little bit about that campaign.

Yeah, well, if you think about health insurance and most of the people listening to this, you're making the biggest health decisions, healthcare decisions of the year during Q4, Q1 because that's when the majority of people are going through open enrollment. So open enrollment season is football season. So we do a lot of, we call constituent marketing, not other people might call it B2B but we have so many different. We have a supplemental insurance and being a sales driven organization is pretty complex. So we have lots of different selling seasons. But the place you will see us show up most is certainly college football. And it's great for us because we have equity there. We've been there for so long with lots of people who know us for the AFLAC trivia. Right. And then about four years ago we brought in Nick Saban and then two years ago, my mentor DC who I mentioned earlier, had this brilliant idea to bring on Deion Sanders which really like put everything into overdrive for us.

Like when you bring on Deion Sanders, are you testing his equity amongst your target consumer and what goes behind a decision like that?

Great question. We do a lot of testing upfront. We test animatics before we. We make a big investment to do, you know, a multimillion dollar production. And it was the same with, with Deion Sanders. I think that we knew that we had something there. We were, we were taking a campaign that was successful with Nick Saban and the AFLAC duck and adding in something that we felt could only make it better. And it certainly had. Also, we work with caa, which many people will know as the talent agency. Right. You know, they're the agent to the biggest stars in the world, but they also have a great marketing division and brand division. And we work with a woman, Jocelyn Monroe, who has just been amazing there, who helps us find talent. But then also if we bring forward talent ideas, she helps us vet that and to understand if it's going to be within our budget, looks at brand safety, looks at reach, you know, can figure out is this person good or bad to work with. And with D on it, he checked all of the boxes and he has just been an amazing partner for so many reasons. We brought him in to star in our television commercials, but he has become really a part of the AFLAC family. And we believe we become a part of his family to where now we're showing up and doing events at Children's Hospital. And Dion is coming along. And frankly, and I probably shouldn't say this on the radio, we didn't pay him for that appearance. He wanted to come because we were going to his community to do something great. And we said, hey, Coach, do you want to come along with us? We're going to do it regardless because we believe in this and we do business in Jackson, Mississippi too. It just happens to be your. Your town. You know, people ask, why does Deion Sanders work for aflac? And I say, deion works for Aflac because AFLAC works for Dion. We have amazing purpose, alignment with him and his team and what he is trying to do with HBCUs in Jackson State. You know, we've been working with HBCUs for 20 years, so this wasn't something new to us. But we really are pouring gas on it now, if you will, because we said this guy can really make a difference and we want to support him. If he can also be in our advertising, great. But the more important thing, and the thing that gets me excited to wake up every morning is that we're working together to do something for the betterment of society.

Absolutely. So look towards the future as we wrap up today. In terms of 2023, you were quoted as saying, the future is not the metaverse. Which I believe you were quoted as saying, which. Which I couldn't agree more with you on that. I think, you know, we've both been along around long enough to understand how these sort of trends can take on a life of their own and they start showing up in agency pitch decks without anybody being able to connect with any real business results. And I do think there's a big difference between cutting edge and bleeding edge. You know, cutting edge is where you can innovate and bleeding edge normally is where you can waste because you're too early. But we'd love to hear your thoughts on some of the things you're looking at, why you believe that. First of all, about the metaverse and where are you focused next year?

Yeah. And so going back to the metaverse, I talked about how we're outspent by the competition, budgets are flat, there's inflation. I believe that at some point in time the metaverse, and I'm a believer in blockchain technology, but it's not there yet. And I don't have the money to help support the R and D for that. You know, meta can do that. And if other brands want to help, help meta, you know, figure out how it works, great. They have a lot bigger budgets than I do. I'm going to double down on what works. And really, you know, my biggest thing for this year, if I have one priority, it's translating that amazing brand awareness that we're blessed with into sales. Because we're a sales driven organization, we're not a marketing driven organization. Organization we have.

Is that easy to do? Is that attribution challenging to connect the.

Dots between top of funnel and it's extremely difficult. And, you know, marketing mix modeling is expensive. And then, you know, how much can you trust it? It's a black box. Do you trust that black box? But what we can do is my organization now of 50 people can help better support our sales organizations, both the direct sales and our thousands and thousands and thousands of independent agents out there selling our products every day in their communities. So we will continue to ramp up that support of our sales organization so that they can feel the tangible effects. I might not be able to say this dollar drove this sale, but if the salespeople are saying we're getting that support that we need from marketing and we're selling more, then people won't question it. Right?

Yeah. And I think, I think that is definitely a theme that we're hearing a lot, Garth, is that, yeah, you know, there's more pressure for marketers to be more efficient and to have that attribution to the business results. I think for a while, you know, in an overinflated bubble, we can get disconnected with that and we can focus on these wacky ideas without anyone taking a step back and say, how is this really driving our business goals? And I think now we definitely have seen a whiplash to the other side. And, you know, I think that not every marketer understands that or can actually execute along those lines.

Yeah. So when it, you know, to go back to your question about trendspotting and what do I think? I wish that I could tell you this, that and the other. I think that whatever we see in the next one to three, you know, who knows how many years they will be around value because of just what's happening with, you know, I mentioned inflation probably eight times on this call. You know, you can't turn on the TV without hearing about it, whether it's the local news or cnbc. And there may be, there's a looming recession perhaps, too. Right. So things get even worse. And you know, to me, on a personal level, and I mentioned why I get up in the morning, it's scary because most Americans don't have $1,000 in the bank to pay for a health event if it would come. And medical debt is a huge problem in this country and isn't going to get any better, you know, and that's why it's my job to help prepare those people with the products that we offer. And I don't just say that as like a plug. I'm going to do everything that I can to let people know that there is a solution to that. And I think it's only going to come even more and more important as this very unpredictable economy may get worse. And I hope that it doesn't. I really do. But hats off to all the brands out there who are thinking about it and thinking about they can help. And Aflac is one of those.

Yeah. Thinking about the consumer. And listen, I think having a purpose in what you're doing rather than just making money because you're actually helping people, in this case, prepare for something unexpected. You know, I think it drives you and it makes it easier for you to get your team aligned in your vision of what you're trying to do. So we're going to wrap up today, Garth, with two questions. First and foremost, is there one quote that you live by?

I said it already, Relationships are everything. But you know what? And I learned that from Pat Doody, third time I've plugged his name today. I have evolved that since then, he said. Relationships are everything I've added and money matters, but the work is the most important. So I think that's one of the things that I bring from the agency side, like the work, the work, the work. We can have all these meetings, talk about all these things and all these processes, but at the end of the day, it's the thing that that consumer sees that is the single most important. If that comes out mediocre or not amazing, then this is all for nothing. So the work is the most important.

Yeah. Think about the one meeting where they came up with the idea for the duck that you know and then actually exported and how many other meetings have had zero impact on the business. So it's all about the key insight and pushing it out.

Execution, execution, execution.

Yeah. So obviously, as you know, a CMO of a very high profile brand, you must be running a million miles a minute or what is the one thing that slows you down, that allows you to get the kind of other side so you can kind of get away from all the craziness of work and get some balance in your life.

My dog, Scout, the cutest thing in the world. Here's a plug. You can find her on Instagram at a goodgirlscout. And then my wife, who I mentioned, Arielle, she also works in marketing. We're a trio just sitting down, having a nice glass of wine after a day and talking about anything from the dog to the weather to marketing. And I love that we both share marketing. She's now SVP of marketing in a company called Good Culture. We're able to bounce ideas off of each other and it's a lot of fun. It's a good life.

Well, good for you. Well, first of all, congratulations on your relatively new role and I have no doubt that the Aflac brand is going to be under great stewardship under your leadership. So on behalf of Suzy and the Adweek team, thanks again to Garth for joining us. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review the Speed of Culture podcast on your favorite podcast podcast platform. Until next time, see you soon, everyone. Take care. The Speed of Culture is brought to you by Suzy as part of the Adweek Podcast Network and A S Creator Network. You can listen subscribe to all Adweek's podcast by visiting adweek.compodcast to find out more about Susie, head to susie.com and make sure to search for the Speed of Culture at Apple Podcast, Spotify and Google Podcasts or anywhere else podcasts are found, click follow so you don't miss out on any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at Suzy, thanks for listening.