OUT OF THE SYSTEM | Why Men Think Power = Safety (And Why It Backfires)

Think of mushrooms are technology. They're not drugs. They're plants. They're technology. Think of them as technology. When I thought this way, it shifted everything for me. Like, oh, I'm going to take some mushrooms, right? And we, all these, these, these tools have been kind of suppressed and like, oh, it's for stoners and for people trying to check out. Actually, no, they're very, very, very intense technology.

Freaking beautiful.

So what mushrooms do is they amplify everything. So your signal, your vibration gets tuned up. And what does that mean? That means you get more in tune with what's around you. You feel things. You will physically feel music. You'll physically feel what the person next to you is going through on mushrooms. It's a type of tuning and vibration raising tool. I now call mushrooms conscious organic technology because you can commune with them. They're an interface to what is beyond this physical space that we see.

You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Gillogly, and on Out of the System hosted by Dr. Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare entrepreneurs back. Hear from clinic owners, rebels, and builders who are creating bold, profitable, patient-centered practices And doing it their way. I'm sitting with Brandon Boyd. Who the fuck are you and what the fuck do you do?

Who am I, guys?

Who am I, William? Can you explain? Can you explain? Okay, so folks, I'm gonna tell you right now, Brandon and I, you're just gonna have to strap in.

Why?

Because like, this is gonna—

I'm here. I almost didn't show up cuz he said I had to wear pants. Just wanna put that out there to the audience.

And, and, uh, the, the podcast studio, we had to walk through a weed shop. I'm just pretty much— that'll pretty much tell you how this thing is set up.

Okay. It's gonna go. Here we go.

So, but Brandon and I are good friends. We've known each other for a long time. He's a brilliant marketer, brilliant observationalist. We're gonna touch a lot of different things. We're gonna talk about some psychedelic journeys that we've done. We're gonna talk about aliens. 'Cause if there's ever a guy that's outta the system, it's you.

Thank you.

Right.

That's the biggest compliment you can give.

It's—

I, yeah.

So I'll take it back. Yeah. Uh, 'cause I don't wanna give you a compliment. So like, who are you?

What the hell do you do?

Oh my gosh. You got a book coming out to like give us—

book coming out this month. Yeah.

Okay. What is the book?

Book is called Undomesticated. It's the evolving man's field guide.

Remember, you gotta be careful with the hands, guys.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm a flailer, so I'm banging things. Sorry, audience.

The audio engineer's gonna, he's gonna come get mad at you.

He's gonna throw something at me. Undomesticated: The Evolving Man's Field Guide to Reclaim the Wild Within. And it talks about a healing journey. It's personal development for men who hate personal development. It's spirituality for men who got sick of the church. It's, uh, it's, it's more about getting out of your head and into your body. And it tells honestly, I mean, the way I frame it is I'm the guru, not, I'm sorry, I'm the guinea pig, not the guru. I've, you and I have grown up and cut our teeth on gurus in the marketing space. And then we've done a lot of work for them. Oh yeah. Yeah.

We know a lot of them.

So, you know, I just got tired of that mentality. And when I saw it in personal development and spirituality and decided, well, I'm going to be the guinea pig. I'm the map who map— I'm the mouse who mapped the maze.

Okay.

So the entire book is about my journey.

Okay. So when you say you're the guinea pig, like, what does that mean? Like, so when did this start? When did this—

This started for me really the big, biggest one that started was in 2020, went through a rough divorce, married 26 years. There was betrayal and decided to divorce. We divorced amicably, which led me into a path of who the fuck am I? And this was— How old are you? I'm 50 years old at that time.

Oh, so you got the who the fuck am I at 50? You're Bud Fox going to 50. That's always a lot of fun.

So for 50 years, who the fuck am I? And I entered the dating market, right? I'm, I'm getting coached by my 30-something-year-old niece and she's like, what's this Tinder thing? And she coaches me and I began to step back into the dating.

I know, right? Mine was 2000 and mine was, uh, back stepping back in the dating scene to 2018. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I was 50 years old, just sold my I found Tinder, I was like, oh my God.

Oh, I know. Exactly. So here's, so I go down this adventure, right, of dating. And what I began to notice is I'm out here in the, in, in dating. And, you know, I assume when you go on a date, you know, you have dinner and cocktails and, and great conversation. If things escalate, great. If they don't, great. And, you know, you hug, kiss goodnight and thank you. That was wonderful. Maybe we'll see each other again. And I realized what I, what I picked up on was how much women live in fear of men. And I'm like, wait a minute, this is— Isn't that fascinating? The low level of anxiety.

Never realized it till a couple— it's unbelievable. It's crazy. Yeah.

That they walk around at a low level of fear that men never experience.

I would say a medium level of fear.

Fair.

Fair. They're constantly in cortisol release.

It's— and so this, this kind of prompted my observer and writer. I'm like, wait a minute, what's— and I've had instances in my family where the women in my family, there's been abuse, there's been assault. And so it was very, even in my own personal family that happened and it, it just became, I'm never gonna be that guy.

Right.

I would start dates when I sit down and I could kind of, you know, get the vibe and I would, I would look directly at her across the table and say, listen to me, you will never receive an unsolicited dick pic from me ever. And you could see—

That's too bad. I want one.

I, well, you might get one. $20, $20. So, so you could see the continents you could see the relief in women. Like, seriously? And, and I'm like, yeah. And then there'd be times where I'd walk to her car and close the door and she's like, that's it? Like, yeah, that's it.

Yeah.

You're not going to try anything? You're not going to try? No, no, I'm not. Which of course, when you put off that kind of energy is very, very attractive to a woman. That, so that whole experience of dating and observing not only myself and dating, but the kind of the culture led me down to write about it and say, this is, this is important things for men to hear and talk about is Masculine presence is a very important thing. So that was a part of my rebuilding phase after.

You ever dive into the whole concept of the divine masculine and feminine?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Because I have. So Christine and I were doing a session. We were doing a journey, which we'll talk about journeys. And she looked at me and she's the one that's helped me realize, like, I had no idea how many women have been sexually assaulted.

It's insane.

It's insane. It's absolutely insane. And not just once, like multiple times. Like from different people. Like I had no idea, like all this ex— like I knew it existed 'cause I have a daughter. Sure. Right.

Sure.

But you don't realize the depth of it.

Right, right, right.

'Cause, you know, I'm a typical knucklehead guy, right? Or was, I'm not anymore. So she looks at me, we're in this journey and she looks at me and she goes, I need you to have fearlessness. So we're part of a social group that is outside my norm.

Mm-hmm.

Right. That's a, an artist community, right? I'm clear. Well, there's one other guy who's there like 61, but he and I are clearly the oldest people there. Everybody there is like 30. So there's, it's, it's not what, it's not the environment that you and I were hanging out in. Right. It's a very different environment. It's lovely. She goes, I need you to have a fearlessness. That's the divine masculine. Yeah. She goes, but I need you to have reverence, the divine feminine.

Mm-hmm.

And I said, oh, because those 2 combined equal sovereignty. And most men operate in this unbelievable amount of fearlessness, divine masculine, but they don't have the balance of the divine feminine, which means that they are not able to have sovereignty, dominion over their own life, and they're not able to create an environment for people to have it. So that's mine. Like what? I want to hear yours.

So the thing—

if it's similar, I'm going to fucking freak out.

Oh, it's right there.

Because it means dropped at the same time. We're coming right there.

So what I began, and this is what I do, I, you know, I throw myself into situations. That's why I'm the guinea pig, not the guru. I throw myself into situations that make me uncomfortable and I flop around in it and I come out and when I extract ideas and wisdom, and that's what you get to read about in the book. So what I began to notice in the dating space is the most important quality for a man is safety around the feminine.

Mm-hmm.

It's safety. She wants to feel safe. And I began to look at it. And what I do is I'll have an idea and like, I start to live it for 6 months and say, is this true? Talking and interviewing women in all different contexts. I started experimenting with polyamory, open relationships, swinging, ENM, and going into these different sexually charged environments and experimenting as well as having incredible conversations with people.

Mm-hmm.

And we, and what would come up? Safety, the idea of safety. And so it goes—

That's not what you would normally think of those places.

No, no. And it's, everything's about safety. It's, it's, it's, if there's a denominator—

It's about safety and consent. Yeah.

If there's a denominator for humans, for men and women, it's safety. And I write about, so going back to say an intimate space, men have to feel like they're not going to be judged for performance. Men have, women have to feel primarily physically safe. Men have to feel primarily emotionally safe because as you know, from your past business, if a man doesn't feel emotionally safe, things don't work. And so here I am, I'm at a swingers club. I'm at this club. I'm at a party and I'm noticing, and what is my body doing? How are people doing this? And then I'd have these conversations afterwards and for safety in an intimate context for a man, that's why they're on ED pills. And the guy was telling me, he was coaching me. He's like, yeah, you should take half a pill before you go in. Like, I don't want to do that. I want my body to work and enjoy the experience.

Yeah. Look, the ED clinics exposed me to this whole space that I never even knew. I know way more about it than I ever thought I would. But like, oh, okay.

So that became the basis for writing is safety. Oh, like, so, so women are seeking safety and this is how they feel it. Men are seeking safety. This is how they feel it. Then, then let's have that conversation. And so that—

So what's that conversation like?

So for men, it's It, it, it, it, it—

'cause men, men equate— I'm gonna interrupt. Men equate safety with power, that if I'm strong and powerful, then they're going to feel safe. I find that that actually does the reverse. Mm-hmm. What do you, what's your point?

How do you define power? That's the main— that's how we define it. Well, 'cause how does—

okay, so here's how society is.

Is it agency? Is it power over self or others? So that's where we kind of get to.

It's, it's, yeah, it's all of it.

Yeah.

It's, it's, well, I'm strong and powerful. I'm strong, I'm big, I'm muscular.

Right.

I have money. I have the things, I have a strong opinion. I believe in this party or that party. It's all of those things. And I find that none of those matter.

Absolutely. Those are, those are—

It's an emotional core. It's an energetic emotional core thing.

And that's why women test. Okay. So that's why buttons get pushed is there. She's trying to test you for safety. It's an, it's a subconscious thing that women do to test for safety. Are you going to fly off the handle? Are you going to raise your voice? You're going to throw something? Are you going to, you know, are you, And so, all right, we're talking about everything. This idea of safety with women led me down a path to observe and get trained by a BDSM dom.

Oh, fascinating.

Yeah.

Talk about out of the system.

Yeah. So I'm at a party with a woman I was dating, went to a party, like, you know, and it's very sexually open party. And there's a guy in a room with a, with a, with a massage table and he's doing what's called tastings, which is like a 20-minute thing of the, this is a thing I do in a BDSM space. I had no fucking clue. Yeah, I know, right? Take that any way you want it.

I'm thinking, what is it, cookies and cream?

I'm like, what is that, bourbon? All right, so, so a tasting, right? I have— I had no idea, no interest, no, no, no clue of what the whole BDSM thing was about. Like, it sounded weird to me. Okay, so here I am.

It sounds very weird to me.

And so I go in there, I'm like, okay. And he's doing a type of massage. It's sensory play, right? He's using these leather gloves with little spikes on them. Called vampire gloves. Not meant for pain, meant for sensation.

Okay.

So when he dragged it lightly over the body—

It's not like to penetrate.

No, it's like being tickled a bajillion times with a glove. So he's doing this, and my friend and I are watching this woman on the table, and she is just gripping the table, and her breath, and she is orgasming, and her body is arching just from simple light touch. There's no penetration.

There's nothing.

It's just a massage. And I'm watching this. I'm like, holy shit. When this woman was done on the table, my friend strips naked in front of 15 people and jumps on the table. Now she had some very severe sexual trauma that came up, you know, in our dynamic. And I was very hyper-aware of, well, for her to strip naked and jump on a table in front of a bunch of strangers was not uncharacteristic. She saw something in that. She jumps on the table. He begins to do the routine, her same response. Her body is purging. It's, it's, it's responding to this. She's letting go in ways I hadn't seen her do. I realized I was watching therapy. The Dom looks at me. Oh, the Dom is looking. The Dom is watching me just intently. He calls me over and while he's doing it, he goes, watch her hands. He would touch her rib cage and her hands would grip. He goes, why? He goes, listen to her breath. He would touch part of her buttocks or her back, her ass just arching in the air and she's orgasming and she's releasing and it's just touch.

It's safe.

Needless to say, I hired him on the spot when she was done and I started training with him. And what I learned was the whole idea. And I was practicing on my friend who visited and he was training me with her and showing me and, and, and did this work. I never was clear on the idea of what a Dom was or a dominant, you know.

Yeah, I always thought there was something. Yeah.

And I was never comfortable with it. I'm not interested in being dominant over someone. And unfortunately, my first lesson with him was Granted, 80, 90% of the dommes out there are fake. They're rapists and they have no clue what this is about. Got it. 3 or 4 trainings in, I call him up. I said, I know what a domme is now.

What is it?

He's like, what? Like, a domme is a man who is dominant over his sexual energy and a woman can feel that. And that is safety.

Oh my God.

So when a man, so when I was, you know, on a date and a guy's getting a little handsy and feeling, I hear all the stories, right? Sending the dick pics. That is undominant. That is leaking masculine energy.

Yeah.

That's not reservation. That's not— there's no restraint there. Restraint is— the dominance is you can be freaking buck naked in front of me and my no means no. And she can feel that. And that is so polarizingly attractive for a woman. So that's what I learned in that space. I learned to be a dom in the sense of curating an experience in that place and sensory play being a part of that. So yeah. And so that gave birth to a large amount of writing and observations and conversations.

Absolutely fascinating. Um, I knew we would go places that I didn't have any idea we would go. And I'm really excited about that. Um, you know, it's, this is, it's so parallel to the things that we've been discovering just about the work that Christina and I have been doing and understanding that the world, the whole purpose of the world is to control you, to control your thoughts and to make you feel bad about having thoughts outside of the system.

Yeah.

I mean, from the first day, I will never forget when Bob, Bob Regnerus and I are close. We were doing Company together and Brandon, you responded to an ad.

Oh yeah.

And it was a sales letter and you wrote about getting your kids, like, it was a great sales letter. It was your, it was your resume. You talked about like getting, going out in pajamas and getting like donuts or something like that with the kids, whatever. Your boys were then, I don't know, whatever, 6 and 4, whatever they were.

Yeah.

Okay. Um, and we're like, fuck, we gotta hire this guy. Like, you know, just 'cause like, this is great. Right. But the thing that I've always loved about you is you've, you've always, much to my chagrin many times, like he shouldn't be doing that. You've always been outside the system. Your thinking has always been outside the system. You've always done things differently. Where does that come from?

Thank you.

Um, now I know you had your stint where you were working for like the Christian adoption agency, but yeah, but even then you were doing things differently.

I mean, it's just, it's this—

Does that come from your dad?

Oh, it definitely does.

What's your dad's name again?

Tom.

Tom.

Tom is definitely my dad. So he, so he was the first undomesticated— my parents were the first undomesticated people. And I got that from them ridiculously relentlessly. But it was this idea is what society valued, they would make a joke of purposely. Give you an example.

Your dad and your mom.

Dad and mom. So dad was a schoolteacher. Mom was an antique dealer. Mom killed it. She still kills it at 93. She can go buy something literally for $2 and sell it for $200. She does this all day long. It doesn't excite her if she can't make $1,000 time off what she buys. And she's, she's a witch. She's fucking magical. Anyway, so mom and dad. So, so you got that. So you got mom and dad and mom. So dad's a schoolteacher and mom is antique dealer and they did everything was do-it-yourself. Everything was hands-on, do-it-yourself, learn how you go buy a book and figure out how to do it. Mom would go and because she was an absolute savage at resale shops and estate sales, mm-hmm, she'd find like this fucking, I don't know what the brand would be, but some ridiculously expensive dress, you know, that, that, that some big brand that women would fawn over. She'd pick it up for $20 or $10, and she'd wear it to a cocktail party. And they'd come home, my dad and mom, and they would just laugh at how everybody would comment and make sounds about, how do they afford that dress on a teacher's salary? And so, they were in this mix of society, but they laughed at it. They were distanced from it. And that's probably where they get it from. So they were above it. They were above it. Not in an arrogant way, but it was like, I see the game.

It's kind of like how I survive LA.

I just— I'm above it.

You're like, how do you deal with LA? I'm like, it's simple. I'm just above it.

It's a game. I don't want to play that.

I'm not, I'm not down in the trenches with everybody else. I'm not like, I'm just, just, I'm above it all observing it. Right. So I, that's how I can, I wouldn't even say thrive because I freaking thrive on it.

Completely agree.

Yeah.

And I'm exactly the same way. The other part of me is I've got to, I've got to be, things have to be very visceral for me. I've got to experience them physically. So I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu, been doing that 8 years. I competed on an international scale. A few years ago, won my first competition.

Congratulations.

Thank you. It's a really fun, beautiful experience, but I did it because I was fucking terrified. I, and, and I don't like, and, and, and all of these—

Yeah, by the way, that's one, you want to get past a fear really quick, as Joe Rogan says, go fight with somebody in a cage match like you're going to get the shit kicked out of you.

Yeah, that was literally it. I, I, I had been resisting competition my entire life. I wasn't super physically fit in my younger years and I wasn't competitive growing up. Dad wasn't competitive, never watched sports. So it's like, Hmm. I'm training jiu-jitsu. I want to challenge myself. And I was noticing I was resisting. I was fearing going in. I'm going to get hurt, too fucking old. I'm not flexible, blah, blah, blah. Like, yep. Okay. Do it. Signed up, trained as well as I, at that time I was training in the coaching modality that I use, the transformational psychology. And the tool is so effective. You can use it with yourself. You actually don't have to have an outside processor. So months, 6 months of training, 6 months of working on the head. And showed up and won my first match. And when I walked onto that and there was still fear, there's still terror, walked up. When I started that match, there's things went blank. I went into a zone. I didn't come out of it until 4 and a half minutes later in a 5-minute match. I was up 7 points and I tapped him, choked him out. Then not choked him out. I choked him and he tapped, which I'm like, what the fuck just happened?

I don't remember any of that. How did you get to that state? How'd you get to that state?

It was, it was, it was the preparation. It's, it was just, it was 6 months of work. It was visualization. It was a lot of it was, it was addressing the fears that would come. I'm literally every day and I'd go and I'd train competition night in jiu-jitsu. And again, I'm an older guy training jiu-jitsu with a bunch of savages.

Mm-hmm.

Getting the ass handed to me. And then I'd see, okay, afterwards, how do I feel? Oh, pissed about this. I'm feeling afraid. I hesitated here. And I'd come home and I just process it on paper.

So what kind of meditation were you doing? You said visualization, were you meditating?

So visualization, what I would do is, so in jiu-jitsu you have a series of moves, you try to package them into a game plan.

Okay.

And so what I would do is I would walk through my visual game plan.

Okay.

We start from our feet. Okay. I'm going to grab your collar. I'm going to make sure I own your arm. If I get that, then I'm going for your leg and I'm going to do a simple takedown. I just rehearse it over and over in the brain. Okay. Once I get to this position, I'm going to rehearse what I'm going to do from here. What's your response going to be? Well, if you do this, I'm going to go there. If you do this, I'm going to go that.

Okay.

So that's the chess of jiu-jitsu.

Okay.

So a lot of, lot of, lot of that.

We're hitting a lot of things here, so I want to kind of bring this back because it's really important. It's, I think it's important for people to understand. So the thing that fascinates me is, one, you, what you just described is through all of these conversations, what you're describing is you're describing starting from a fundamental belief system that's been handed down to you about a particular thing.

Yeah.

Is that, is that fair? Yeah. So a framework, you had a framework, you had a framework that was expanding it. You had an, you had a predisposed disposition about Dom's.

Yeah.

You had a predisposed disposition about whether or not you can handle being in the ring and fighting. Yeah. So you are kind of glossing over like your pro— so when your process is, is you then you go and you suspend your ego and you listen.

Yes.

Is that about right?

I become an observer. I become a, I, I agree with myself. Okay, are we gonna do this? Yeah, we're gonna do this.

Well, do you agree with yourself that you're gonna do this or do you agree with yourself first and that you have a block.

Yeah. So the, the indicator of why I made myself go compete is 'cause I was fucking terrified.

Okay.

That's it.

So then why'd you go to learn how to be a Dom?

So the Dom is because I, I just have a genuine love and interest of helping because the coaching work I do.

Right.

I'm a very big empath. Straight honest is, is when I ended my relationship, You were, you were noticing 50 years of a man who was sexually repressed.

Yeah, I was right there with you. 25 years.

Grew up Catholic, been in the church, married. You marry in the church to have sex. And then, you know, she and I had a great friendship, great co-parents. We had no sexual chemistry.

Yeah.

Same thing. So now it's—

same thing with my first wife.

And I'm 50 years old. I'm a man off the chain and like, I'm going all in because I've never explored this part of myself. I've never— I don't even know. I have no idea. And so that's why I put myself in scenarios that where people were comfortable with sexuality. why I went to clubs and parties. 'Cause I want, what's it like to be in the energy of people who don't give a fuck and who are celebrating their sexuality? Like, I need that. 'Cause I got shame, baby. I got, and so, so that's where it started.

Shame, all that stuff. Right.

And then when going to this and watching this Dom thing, I'm like, I'm watching, I'm watching a friend and I was very aware of her sexual trauma and I'm watching her release. I'm watching her get better. Like, I want to learn that. Not, I just don't want to learn sexual stuff, to have sex, even though that's really good and fun stuff. There was some— I wanted something transformational. I wanted something bigger than just a thing in a hole. Right, right. So, so, so that's me, but that's me.

I'm so— Okay. We're talking with doctors. They figured out the context. They got that. They got the visual. Yeah. They got the visual.

I can just, you know, we put in the footnotes.

Yeah.

So, so that, and that's really kind of a part of why I do these kinds of things. It's, it's nothing is casual for me. It's like if I'm gonna do jiu-jitsu, I gotta fucking dive in and get really good. I gotta be good at it to whatever good means, you know, for a guy. So are your, you have brothers, sister?

even know.

Do you have brothers? Brother and a sister.

You have a brother and sister? Are they the same way as you or are they? No, are they?

No, absolutely not.

So they're, so this is kind of in your DNA.

It's me.

Yeah.

Yeah. This is, this, yeah.

Right. 'Cause you just, you kind of get off on this shit.

Oh, I get off on it weird.

Like you go down some real cool roads, which is great. I love hanging out with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I got stories.

Yeah. So like, I find it incredibly fascinating. So when you're working with someone, yeah, and you've got somebody that's blocked, let's say you're dealing with a doctor who's, for the most part, they're relatively conservative, right?

Sure.

But a lot of 'em are type A personalities. They basically have like willed theirself to becoming a doctor. They busted their ass and they got straight A's. They'll tell you that, no, it just came naturally, but they worked their ass off, right?

Yeah.

So then on top of it, like when you present, what happens with a lot of people when they work really, really hard to obtain something?

Yeah.

They're even more resistant to change.

Of course. Because it's a principle of investment. Right.

Because like the hardest thing we have to do is when the orthopedic surgeons decide to no longer do surgery. They know in their brain for years, it's the least profitable thing that they do and has the most risk. They get paid $750 or $850 or $950 for an ACL reconstructive surgery, $1,100, $1,300 for joint replacement. They get 60 days of follow-up. They've got to, they take all the risk, right?

Yeah.

It's the least profitable thing that they do when they're moving to a cash practice. And they all know that they should give it up. And they don't. Now, if you were coaching them, how would you take somebody through that?

What is familiar feels safe, even though what is familiar is not safe.

Say that again.

What is familiar feels— what feels familiar feels safe, even when what feels familiar may not be safe.

May not be safe.

Right. Because they've invested in it. It's comfortable. They know it inside and out. It's an investment. It's this. And so what begins to happen is like, okay, they've gotta make a decision. Okay, we can, we've gotta de-invest in this character. So here, here's how it works. All of us walk around and we have a, we have, there's us, there's Matt, and then there's the identities Matt steps into.

Yep.

A few times a week I step into the jiu-jitsu identity. Okay. Get on the, I step in, I got my kimono, I get in a mindset, I step in, I'm jiu-jitsu guy. I'm not jiu-jitsu guy when I'm grocery shopping. I'm not trying to tap out the lady buying asparagus. No, you should. That's still, maybe I should try. It'd be fun. Good price.

I know. Decent.

Yeah. Put it down, Gladys. Okay, so there's that. That's what identities do. And we do this all the time, every day. Identities always have a goal. And this is kind of the base of the coaching that I do. And so what happens is, so there's an identity here. There's an identity of what's the specific procedure?

Orthopedic surgeon. It's in the name. I'm a surgeon.

Okay, so they're a surgeon. They have an identity. This is how they show up. This is what they do. Part of that identity is doing this specific procedure, it sounds like. And you're trying to say, hey, Stop it right now. They've invested in it thousands of dollars, thousands of hours, time. This is so familiar. It's the back of their hand. So what they're doing, what you're asking is a de-identification in that particular aspect of the identity. And so what I would do with someone, and let's say you're coaching them and you're saying, Dr. Joe, you, or whoever, you gotta like stop this and you get resistance. Like, why do I gotta stop this? Wait. Okay. Okay. Well then what I would do is, okay, so when you think this statement, I got, I've got to move away from this particular procedure. What comes up? What's the emotion? Uh, fear. Perfect. Fear. What's that fear? Scale of 1 to 10? Oh, it's an 8. Okay, great. Um, how's that negatively affecting your life? Well, you know, I'm worried about this one.

Cool.

How would you rather feel? I'd rather feel optimistic.

Okay.

Rather feel peaceful. Then what we do is we just, we go down and we process that fear and we do it in 2, we do it I do about 20 different processes, but they essentially do the same thing. It's addressing the thought, the resisting thought, and the resisting emotion, and it's integrating them.

Okay.

A lot of times what happened, and this is why I went down the road I did with coaching rather than traditional, is because most of the self-help stuff that I had been using growing up were focused on mind, mindset. Give me checklists. Give me to-dos.

Yes. Well, doesn't work at all.

I'm a big feeler, man. I feel everything. I'm a big gushy teddy bear. And for an emotionally sensitive male in our society, society, which has not generally been celebrated. The stuff that was mainstream just wasn't really working for me. So I found something where you integrate emotions and thoughts, and that's where everything changed for me. And the idea is everyone talks about pushing away from thoughts, or I don't want to feel this and I don't want to think that. And why am I thinking that? To the idea of integration. What if you can be both? What if you can hold both? What if it's, what if 2 things are true?

Have you done Human Designs?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. Pure generator.

You're a pure generator. I'm an easy breezy genius. I'm a 2/4.

You're a 2/4?

Uh-huh.

Easy. I've never heard of an easy breezy genius.

Yeah, there's not many.

You're not a projector?

No.

I've never heard of easy breezy.

I'm an emotional authority.

Okay. I'm a cerebral authority. Emotional.

I'm a split definition.

Yeah.

Open spleen.

Okay.

Same. Open G center. Right? So I feel everything. Yes. Which is amazing to me. By the way, if you don't, none of you understand what we just talked about, don't worry about it. Um, we'll explain a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So human design is basically astrologically based. You're giving your date of time, date of birth, where you're born, your date, you know, in the city you were born and the time and the date. Okay. And we've run this, we run this on all of our clients now.

Beautiful.

And it's so fucking dead on, right? Because we're, you know, people get cancer and they have heart attacks because they're operating outside of how they're designed. They're doing things that they don't want to do. Right. So reason why I bring this up is from a human design standpoint, You, like, I was operate because I am an open spleen, which what that means to the people listening is I absorb everything around me. I'm a chameleon, right?

I could show you right now the conversation I had with my Claude AI, which has a Claude called Human Design Coach.

Yes. Yes.

And I had this conversation last night.

Yeah. So I, I am a chameleon. I become pretty much what I'm around.

Yes.

Okay. Now that's really good. And it was, by the way, a great survival technique growing up in my house.

100%.

Because I grew up in such a fucking chaotic house, right? Yeah. That I just was like, oh, it's no big deal. We just like, this is what you do.

Right, right.

Great survival technique.

You're emotionally navigating, surfing everyone around.

As a friend of mine said, he goes, you probably could have survived Auschwitz. Like you would've figured out a way to make it work. Like that was a compliment. I'm, I'm not Jewish, folks. Yeah, yeah. Not that there's anything wrong.

You act like it. Keep going.

So, so, so anyway, This whole thing of what you were just talking about, the problem with the gurus is that they tell you their way that has worked for them.

Yes.

Very few people talk about understanding the way that works for you. This is a key tenet to what we do at Mavericks. It's a massive difference, differentiator, because when we do this and all, most of my doctors, not, I'd say 50% of my doctors are like, Okay. And then they come in for a Dominion Day, which is where we break down, restructure their business in a day. And we start with this and they go, you're this, you're this, you're this. And this is when you're best and blah. And they look at me like, how'd you know that? I go, Human Design. They're like, really? I said, now let's design your company based on how you were created. Because every doctor understands this. When that sperm pierces the egg, and pregnates it, fertilizes it. It is a miracle. Every doctor will tell you that. And if a doctor tells you it's not a miracle, it's like, eh, whatever. It's a miracle. Okay? And they know that it's not random and they know that it's very special. Okay? Now, I'm not going to say that every single doctor that we work with or I talk to all believe in God. They all have a different level of that.

Sure.

Most of them believe in a creator. I've only met one that's like a real atheist and I think it was bullshit. Like they all recognize the beauty and the odds stacked against it for that to happen, for the impregnation, for the, for the egg to become fertilized. Okay. So when they start to understand that, when people, I believe that when people start to understand that they are uniquely designed, it changes all the guru bullshit.

Yes.

Because most of the guru bullshit is manifesting generators as checklists. Yes. It's projectors and manifesting generators. Yes. Like, you gotta have a list. Like, I don't have a list every day. By the way, you wanna know what I do? I get up every morning, I don't take any calls before 12 o'clock. Okay. And I go, sacral, what do you want me to do today? That's my life.

Precisely the same.

And that's what I do. Something like the other day, it's like, go to Topanga. I was in LA. I'm like, okay. I got in the car and I drove. Never been to Topanga.

Yeah.

Because I'm thinking, that's where we're thinking about getting a house. I'm like, okay, let's go there. One time I was like, go to Ojai. Woke up on a Saturday morning. Christine wakes up, she goes, what are you doing? I said, I think we're supposed to go to Ojai. She goes, yeah, yeah, that's right. Let's load up the car. Let's go to Ojai. Like, this is how I live my life now. Like, now I have, like, I, you know, I had to come here this morning and sure, sure, sure. Right. Like, yeah, but I have buffers around it, right? Yeah. I've got a client in tomorrow. I've got a client on Friday. I go to Japan on Sunday. Right. You know, I've got some stuff, I've got stuff that's organized. Sure. Sure. Right. Like, I'm not like, you know, I'm not like the Grateful Dead, just kind of like, woo-hoo. Right. You know, there is an agenda sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but it is, it's jazz is what it is. Yeah.

Improvisational jazz.

It's improv jazz.

There's structure.

Right. Look.

But you're moving within it.

You're playing. But most people are taught to be orchestrate, orchestras.

Yes. Which doesn't, what is it?

But I am improv jazz. My life is, I am designed to be improv jazz.

Same.

When I figured this out, I literally have a planner. I didn't bring it with me. I have a planner that I've designed based on—

Really?

Yes. Based on your human design. Yeah. We run through human design. I got a—

That's a great idea.

Yeah. Don't anybody steal it. It's mine. So I have like a whole series of questions and we create it.

Boom.

Like you, I've got it to the place where I'm like actually taking their AI imprint to create their planner for them. Yeah.

Last night I asked my AI around my human design AI to write me what's my operating system for Brandon. Because I came up with a new, you'll love this. I came up with a new saying. This came to me when I was just doing meditation, smoking a little cannabis, was my sacral is my sight.

Yep.

Because I, I, I just had to end a briefly little dynamic I had with a woman because I wasn't trusting my sacral because my sight was like, oh wow, there's lots of chemistry and she's beautiful and all this. The sacral is like, get the fuck out of this now, right now. And I wasn't paying attention.

I listen to it all the time.

Yeah. So it was, it's, it's most of the things in my life that I would categorize as unfortunate or disruptions or problems was me not listening to my sacral.

Absolutely.

Me overriding my sacral.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And like, I know why I, you know, it's not like my ex-wife Sarah's ever going to hear these, right? Like she's my first wife. We were college sweethearts. We were married 25 years, married. We were together 28. We have 3 kids, beautiful kids. And maybe they'll hear this, but like, I don't want anybody to think like I'm speaking ill of her, but we should have never been married.

Right.

I've run her Human Design. I'm like, oh yeah. I mean, but you know, you do things like I totally didn't. I remember there was a period I'm like, I think I should keep seeing her, but I didn't want to upset her because that was my programming. Sure. Of course. Because I grew up in a house that it was chaotic and I could make everybody laugh and I could make everything fine. So I just was, I was the guy that could make everything right. My dad could make everybody, I could handle everything. Right.

Right.

But so going back to this, but we most, I find that 90% of people, 95, I'm going to say 95% of people operate outside of their human design and that's where the friction comes from.

Oh, 100% agree. The tools, the things that were handed. I have another saying. Don't steal this. This came to me. It's going to be on a billboard. Steal it. It's that productivity books are all about how to be a better slave.

Oh, that's brilliant.

Productivity books, management books, how to be a better slave.

Absolutely.

We're in AI right now. Absolutely. AI is the momentum's incredible. It's going to change everything. But as many dollars and time I've invested in productivity literature, invested in self-help literature, it's, oh, I'm just learning how to be a better slave. That's what I'm doing.

Yeah, that's the problem with it. I think everything is designed— going back to the original thesis, if you will, going back to the original statement a couple of minutes ago, the whole system is designed to keep you enslaved. The entire Fucking system is designed to keep you enslaved. Talk about political parties.

Yeah, right.

Republicans, Democrats. Yeah, I'm a Republicrat. Republicrat.

I can't even say that.

I know, I was trying to figure out how to put in libertarian socialist in there, but an independent, but you can't. But like, I'm not right. They're both full of shit.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, they're both, they both, like you were just drawing out, both of them, as I always say, you cannot sell heaven unless you got a hell.

Exactly right. We are in a polarity game.

Learn that from Kevin Nations. Right. So if, if I want to raise money, I have to paint somebody as evil.

Exactly.

Okay.

You need a villain.

I, I'm convinced like Hillary and Trump like sit in a corner laughing.

Oh, I think so.

About all the money they're bringing in.

There's something to it. So chapter 2 of my book, I'm sitting with mushrooms one night.

Psychedelic mushrooms.

Psychedelic mushrooms.

Not the kinds of which, not the ones you put on pizza.

Yeah. Right.

Not which you could put these on pizza.

You could, but You'd have, you wouldn't remember the pizza. So, um, to your point, I'm sitting with mushrooms one night. Okay. I'm lying in bed. I'm lying down, face mask on. And I started to get these downloads. This is what happens to me regularly on mushrooms. Yeah. Same thing.

Yeah. I get massive downloads.

It's unreal. I start having communication with all different types of beings. We'll get there. And for 2 hours, I'm being told that Brandon, You're playing a game. This is called the Earth game, and it's the toughest fucking game in the galaxy, and you signed up for it. And that shifted everything. That's chapter 2 of the book. I'm like, wait a minute, this is a game. I'm playing a game. And like, yeah, the game is polarity, and the game is, is roles and characters, just like a first-person shooter game your boys used to play. It's just like Metal Gear. Yeah, tell us. Oh, so I took that like, okay, let's just play this out for a while. What if it is okay, then how does this work? Oh, then, then the idea of villains and saviors and victims came up. Well, in any good story of hero's journey, you've gotta have all 3.

You have to.

You gotta have mentors. You gotta have—

You can't write copy without it.

I'm like, oh, and they, so what is being showed and what Clayman is like, this is like, we're playing a hero's journey game. That's what we're doing. And so you gotta have all these characters. And if you're the hero of your own story, then It becomes playable. We get less invested in whether it's this political person or this guru or this religious guy. And we get less attached to and invested in the ideology. And we realize, okay, polarity here. How much do I want to invest in? So that's when it became playable and it got fun. And that's what we kind of talk about through the whole book.

So I'm walking, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona, and I have an LA Dodgers hat. I've always loved the Dodgers. Right. And with this the journey work, I've realized like there was this whole thing that, I mean, even though I'm a White Sox fan, like I grew up a White Sox fan, right? I grew up in Chicago. I'm a White Sox fan.

Yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause I have to be different, right? I can't do what everybody else does.

No.

Right. Um, but I've always, when the Dodgers and the Yankees were playing for the World Series in the late '70s and early '80s, I was always rooting for the Dodgers. Everybody's like, why do you mean you're rooting for the Dodgers? You should root for the Yankees. And I'm like, fucking, I hate New York. And I'm sorry if you're from New York, but just deal with it. Like a lot of people say they hate New York, so just fucking deal with it. Okay. It's a smelly city. Um, and I really don't like the Yankees. Okay. And so there, okay. If you wanna unsubscribe, go ahead. Um, so, so I'm walking, I, I'm can't remember. I think I'm at the gym and I've got my Dodgers hat on and the Dodgers were playing the Diamondbacks that week. Right. And it was the early part of the season and, you know, they're arch rivals and some guy comes over and he is like, what are you doing wearing that Dodgers hat in here? You fuck, you should have, you, what are you? He's just railing me.

Yeah.

Yeah. And he, he goes on and I look at him, I go, it's a fucking fucking hat. Get over it. And he's like, why? He's like, right, right. You're, you, you, what do you think about the Dodgers? I go, I don't know. I just wear the hat. It's a hat. It's a hat. And he looked at me like, like, what do you mean? You're just like, you don't, you don't invest. You don't think it's bad? You don't think it's bad that Shohei Ohtani's getting $700 million? I'm like, good for him. Yeah, great. He's great.

Yeah.

Fucking make him get, give him a billion. I don't care. Like, I don't give a shit. It's not my money.

Yeah.

Like, We get so in— like, I used to get so invested about, oh, I hate the Cubs, right? You know, no, you know, the White Sox are the real team. They're a working-class team. And when the, when they'd have the crosstown rival, when they first started doing it, you know, and Bob and I would be like, yeah, let's beat the fucking Cubs. And we may suck this year, but let's beat the fucking Cubs. It's idiotic. It's so idiotic. Like this whole thing of like, okay, well, you know what, what party you root— who you're voting for? I'm like, it's none of your goddamn business. I don't care. Yeah. Like, I care, but I'm like, I'm not gonna have this discussion with you.

Right.

Or the other thing that always, like, the other one is religion.

Oh, here we go.

I mean, you know, it's like, okay, so I was raised Catholic.

Yeah.

I, you know, I went through the 12-step program to detox out of it. Yeah. I was an altar boy, right? Went through that whole thing, went through my phase of like, is there a God? Then I sure had a moment where, you know, I gave my life to Jesus and sure got baptized and did the whole thing just like you did.

Yeah. Yeah.

And kind of raised my kids in the church and it was nice and wonderful.

Sure.

And then I got out and I'm like, Is that all there is?

Right.

I was like, come on, seriously? Like, I just spent—

A splinter in your mind.

10 years in this system and I was, I was going bankrupt and they wanted to send me to Dave Ramsey's financial consulting. Like, my bankruptcy filing's 36 pages, dude. Like, I owned a real estate investment company in 2010. Like, we just, we buy into systems and we have No fucking idea of how much they entrap us.

There's a chapter where I, there's a diagram. So I was in this church I referred to for 8 years. Okay. I got recruited, like I was like 20, 21 years old. My sister was in it. She got in it because she was in an abusive relationship and she said the church saved our relationship. And so my sister, great.

Good for you.

Fantastic. I got in, my sister and I are very close growing up. She was the only one I really trusted and was close to my family. And I was I was, you know, I'm 20 years old. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. Like, I go there, people are just love bombing me, encouraging. I was going to, I like, okay, I'm going to enter this and this container and see what happens. And so got baptized in the whole thing and, and enjoyed it, got in it, got married in it. But after a time, I started to notice the levers, shame, fear, guilt, shame, fear, guilt.

Well, because when you come from the world that you and I come from, where you write marketing copy and you're in marketing, you understand how you manipulate people to get to do what you want them to do.

Yes.

I mean, I, I speak for a living. Yeah. In an audience.

Yeah.

You can put Tony Robbins' pitch and Billy Graham's pitch right next to each other and they're all the same triggers.

Sure, exactly.

I've studied 'em.

Yeah. I know. And you're, you're amazing live and I get it. Yeah. Thank you. And so, so I'm in this and I'm, and I'm, and I'm—

I'm glad you said I'm not amazing. I'm glad you clarified live and not naked, but go ahead.

Okay. Well, well, I, that's when we should edit that. We'll edit that out there. But you're, you're that too. All right. So, so then I got out of this thing and I'm trying to— I'm in the dark night of the soul and I'm trying to figure out who the fuck I am after 8 years of being in a cult. Now I'm married and you get married to have sex and I sincerely love this person and we're— we still have a great relationship. But you get out and like, wait a minute, who am I now? Now I'm out. I'm deinvested in the, the archetype of the good Christian man. This is chapter 3, which is basically a weak guy. Bad.

Yeah. He's so good. The good Christian man is— he doesn't make— he doesn't— and this, by the way, this is a lot. I highly recommend you listen to Irwin McManus and the And what was, uh, Wild at Heart, right? Yeah. They basically emasculate us.

Yes.

I told the— you know, don't, don't have too many demands. Don't, don't ask too much of her. Erasure. Right.

Self-erasure.

Don't, don't put yourself in a situation where you could be tempted.

Right, right. Like, like we can't shame your sexuality. Right.

Don't. Yeah. It's just ridiculous.

I call it the obedient believer. It's an archetype that we're handed. So anyway, now, so I've been performing this for 8 years, the obedient believer, this archetype.

That's when he came to work for us, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was out. I'm like, who the fuck am I now? Yeah.

Now I'm working for— now he's going his through thing. We're, we've got Christian Business Daily, Renegade Christian Entrepreneur.

We're doing all these So then I'm out of this thing. I'm living my life. A few years ago, our mutual friend Perry Marshall, I met one of his events and, and, you know, we're doing a roundtable thing and everybody's going around talking about their businesses and what I kind of like, things come to me, you know, from the side that are not direct. And I start writing this diagram and it was a diagram of an ideology and how they function. And I look at this thing and I said, and I walk up to Perry and, and, and this is based on a conversation Perry and I had a week before.

This is right here.

No, it's a different one.

Okay.

All right. So I'm, I'm having this conversation with Perry on the phone about ideologies, and he actually gave me, I'll, I'll share in a minute. And he did actually gave me the last segment of it. So now we had just had this conversation and I write this and I show this, this, I write this little diagram and I said, hey Perry, what do you think of this? This is what we talked about the other day. He goes, do a presentation on it in 20 minutes.

So I did this. That is so Perry.

That is so Perry. You're like, what did I do?

Perry's a good friend of ours. He's wrote the, he basically wrote the Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords.

Yeah.

And that's basically where it all started. He's a brilliant man.

Phenomenal guy.

He's a great friend.

PerryMarshall.com.

Fucking great guy.

But here's what, here's what I discovered about being inside the belly of the beast. This is why I'm the guinea pig, not the guru. I lived inside of a cult and here's how they operate. Number 1, cults start with ideas. It's a good idea to want to have a relationship with the idea of a creator or God or Allah or whatever you want to do. It's a nice idea. I want to be more spiritual. Now it begins with an idea. Ideas Evolve into ideals. Ideals become almost unreachable standards. Yes.

Yes. And that keeps you in bondage.

When we be like Jesus, when we get to be like Jesus, when we get to heaven, when we get there, when we get here, it's always outside of you. It's always separate from you. Check this out. Ideals become idols. Now that becomes personified. In the church I was a part in, there were titles and there was hierarchy. And this person was called a prophet. And oh, that elder over there, he's just like Jesus. So now you got idols, you got physical representations who are calling the shots. Idols then become identity. And so I adopted the identity of the obedient believer, the good Christian man.

Now, whatever you got to do.

And that identity I invested in. And the investment is what keeps the whole thing spinning until disruption comes until the elder who helped found the church, which is thousands of people worldwide, wrote a letter, a 30-page letter. And that letter was saying— was meant to go just to the leadership of the church. And it got leaked. Oh, and it went viral.

Oh.

And thousands of people left because the system of investment in the ideology, in the identities, Broke. What the letter said was everything, what everybody was feeling, but was afraid to say. And it broke it. It broke the ideology. And when there was enough consciousness and momentum, the people outside of the leadership, the whole thing collapsed. Never was the same again.

Yeah.

Same thing.

By the way, folks, this happens in everything.

Everything.

Politics happens in sports teams. Yes. Politics.

Totally.

You know, what do you mean? You're free. You got a friend who's a Packers fan. If you're a Bears fan, like, what are you doing? Yeah. like, what do you mean you're just going to the Hall of Fame at Lambeau? You're a Bears fan. You don't do that.

I'm like, right.

Why don't I want to go to the Hall of Fame at Lambeau? It sounds really cool. Like, it sounds like a really cool old stadium. I want to go fucking check it out.

Yeah.

Like, it's just, it's amazing to me how we are so— it's not, it shouldn't be because I'm a marketer, right?

Like, sure.

I, I'm so good on stage. I always tell people I could make Jews Christians. I can make Jews Muslims, Muslims Christians, and Christians Jews. Sure. I'm that good.

Okay.

Right.

Literally, you've seen me speak.

Yeah. I'm pretty good.

Pretty awesome. Okay.

Yeah. I'm really good.

Yeah.

Okay. But we just, we, we adopt ideologies because there's safety in numbers.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And then there's joy in hating. It's so much fun to hate somebody. Well, okay. I hate Alabama fans, so that's, you know, that's okay.

Is that justified? I don't know if Alabama fans are justified.

No, actually, I, I really like Nick Saban and I just feel sorry for Alabama fans cuz Kalen DeBoer's just, no matter he wins, he's never gonna add up to Nick Saban. But I mean, I joke about it. I don't hate Alabama fans. I mean, you know, Tennessee fans, now that's another story. Yeah. No, joking. But yeah, we like, it makes us so feel so comfortable.

Yeah.

To be a part of something. Right.

Yeah. So identities always have a goal.

But wouldn't you say your jiu-jitsu thing is kind of like your identity? Completely.

So, so I, I call it—

Okay. So, so it's not like you're not doing this.

Oh, I'm in a fucking cult, dude. Look at, I got a, I got a tattoo sleeve. I shaved my head. Oh yeah.

That's the way it was with CrossFit, by the way. CrossFit is a total fucking cult. So here's the thing. It's great.

It was awesome.

It's a cool— and then I got injured all the time. I was like, I can't do this anymore.

Right. So here's the thing about ideologies. They're— you could— they can be positive or negative. They can be new. They can be neutral.

Yeah.

I would offer that my jiu-jitsu community is an expansive, positive ideology, at least for me. Yeah. Nobody cares.

Did you have said that about the church before though?

Huh?

Would you have said that about the church?

I would. When I entered it, I was— I entered very enthusiastically. I don't wanna make it my experience.

But you're much older now, right? And so you understand.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, okay. Entered it with full enthusiasm at 20 and then got out in my 30s, like, and, I outgrew the container. I outgrew my container of marriage. You outgrew your container of marriage. I have outgrown different business things. I've outgrown political stances. We enter containers and then we leave them. The problem is when we get stuck in a container, which is an ideology, we can't leave. We don't feel like we can leave. It's not safe. That's what happened to me in the church.

So I do this talk about containers.

Yeah.

Okay. In our mastermind. And so I use the example of when you buy I, I like to plant flowers. Like, I, I, I can't fucking plug in a hammer, you know? I can't, I can't. I'm, I'm not sure, like, I'm not sure what you do with a drill. Like, you know, like, it looks like it sounds really cool, but, you know, but I can grow shit. I can grow shit outside.

Right. Very cool.

Okay. So I can grow flowers and I can grow grass and I, I like that. Like azalea, like I enjoy, I don't like do it all the time. Like, but yeah, I, 'cause I travel so much.

Sure.

But I love, I love flowers. So you go to the— I love the spring. You go and you get the flat of flowers and you put them into a pot. Yeah. But you can't put them in too big of a pot. Yeah. You know why?

Tell me.

Because the water, the roots have to suck up the water. So when you put water in, the roots pull it up, the water, and the water evaporates out.

Okay.

But the roots have to go far enough down to pull the water. out or the soil gets contaminated and the roots get rot and they die. Okay. So you can't put things in. And I do this whole thing when we start to work with people about containers. Yeah. Because everyone's like, I want to go from $25,000 in cash-based services to $250,000. I'm like, sure.

Okay.

Well, that's a, that's difficult container-wise. Now a guru would be like, yeah, you do it.

Give me your credit card.

Give me your credit card. Let's do that. I'm like, Well, they've already given me the credit card, but you know, so, so I'm like, let me explain to you what I want you to do is all I want you to do is go from $25,000 to $40,000.

Yes.

And then I'm gonna transplant you to another one. You're gonna go from $40,000 to $60,000.

Love that.

Because if I move you from the $25,000 package to, uh, container to the $60,000 package, your business is gonna die.

Mm-hmm.

From root rot.

Love that.

Okay.

Beautiful.

And you're, as the size of the container grows, You have to put other plants in there.

Yes.

You have to have a thriller, a spiller, a filler. Kind of, you've heard that whole thing. Like a thriller is like, uh, a thriller, a spiller is something that goes over the edge. Okay. A filler is just some kind of plant that fills up the space and you got a thriller that's like the centerpiece that it's like tall. Oh, okay. When you ever go to like Home Depot and you, yeah, you buy the thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a thriller, a filler, and a spiller. Oh, okay. That's your business in maturity. Interesting. Most people try to start their businesses at that level. Okay.

Okay.

You just start with, go get the flat of the poinsettias or not the poinsettias, the pansies, and put 'em all together in one pot.

Love that.

And then as they grow, move 'em to another pot and move 'em to another pot.

That's a beautiful analogy.

Thank you. I get paid for this stuff, so I get paid well.

So containers.

So, but I outgrew, the reason why I share that is I outgrew I outgrew my container with my first wife. I outgrew with my second wife. Okay. And at some point I'll do a full dissertation on that. It's not time yet. I can tell you that both are amazing ladies. Both are wonderful ladies, but they weren't growing at the pace. I'm the type of plant that needs new containers all the time. And it's not just people like the people around me, they grow as fast as I do.

Okay.

And they were happy in the size of the container that they were in. And I think that happens to a lot of people is they get, they know that they, if they move into the container, they could get, it could become a better plant.

Sure.

But it feels risky to them to go into that. What happens if it doesn't work? What happens if I get transplanted the wrong way? What happens if they don't give me enough water or fertilizer? Right. But the system's really kind of predictable. I mean, you know, like, so anyway, that's my, I think I'm happy that, you know, you and I, I mean, I'm not, I'm not surprised that you got divorced given the environment, you know, the age you got married. I mean, fuck, I got married at 24. Um, I'm happy that you guys still have a great relationship. Yeah. I don't have one with either.

Okay. You know, I just, you know, I just decided and it, it was excruciating.

Um, divorce sucks.

It's excruciating.

It's awful. It's absolutely awful.

Um, there were events around it that made it even more excruciating. And it's chapter 1, just so you know, the introduction of the book is me standing at the clerk court on my birthday filing divorce papers. And she looks at me when we're done, she goes, happy birthday. That's how the book starts. So there's, yeah, it was funny. And it, it, it, the irony is, yeah. But, but yeah.

But maybe it was a happy birthday.

Yeah, it was. It was my rebirthday. That's how I talk about it. But no, I, I just decided I, I didn't, the stories I've heard, I mean, I, both my boys are adopted. They already have issues with, you know, abandonment, mom, all that kind of stuff. They'll, they may never know their, their biological parents. So I wanted to make sure that we could keep something intact as amicably as possible.

How've they done through all this?

It was a rough 2020. 2020 was the divorce.

He was in a really bad car wreck, right?

He almost, he literally died on the operating table and came back and he was sat, he, he's, he has a complete out-of-body experience we can talk about. But, uh, he's, both my kids are very tapped in. My youngest went—

Say they, they're both really tapped in.

Tapped in spiritually. Explain that. Yeah. Okay. So I, you know, I'm the cool dad. I do psychedelics with my kids. How old are the kids now? 24 and 20. Cool.

How's that been?

Fantastic.

Have they been able to kind of reconcile some of the stuff in their past from when they were in the orphanage? Because you guys, Russia?

Yeah. One from Russia, one domestic Illinois.

And luckily— It's kind of like Russia, domestic Illinois.

Some of Illinois. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Have you seen the balance sheet of Illinois? It's kind of like Russia. It's kind of like Russia.

Yeah. But through the whole thing, Through the whole divorce. And again, we divorced amicably. We split everything. I made sure she was secure and in place with my youngest, you know? And then it was me. They saw dad raw. There was no, there was no emotional, there wasn't like, I wasn't trying to be the stoic soldier. I wasn't trying to be the typical man. Oh, we just gotta suck it up and— no, I was a fucking mess.

Oh yeah, I was a mess too.

And I allowed them to be a mess. Yeah. We cried together, the 3 of us. Yeah. And I, 'cause I knew it had to happen.

Yeah.

And since then it's been great. Since then we've, there There's things we still talk about and bring up, and I will do some of my coaching work with them when they're open to it, which has been very useful for them. But that first year, the 2020, was the rip the Band-Aid off year. That was the divorce. Oldest son almost died in a car wreck, and youngest one went to the hospital for ideation. So it was a rough year. Wow. And that's when I was introduced to psychedelics.

So let's talk about the psychedelics.

Yeah.

Because I want to dive into this. People that listen to this, they know that I'm a big fan of them. Yeah. We've about 30 of our doctors have gone to do sessions. Mike Zeller is kind of the, we joke he's the company shaman. We, and for the record, we call this medicine. You know, obviously there are, I have to give the legal disclaimer.

Of course.

You know, there are some states that frown on it and others do not. Here's what I will tell anybody right now that you're having an issue with this part of the conversation. I encourage you to go listen to the Andrew Huberman podcast about the data and the scientific data behind the use of psychedelics in fighting PTSD in military and first responders. And if anything, what I want you to do is I want you to understand that maybe your belief system, as it centers around the use of things like psychedelics, MDMA, things like that, might be a belief system that was given to you without any research. Because I will tell you, I was really resistant. And then I do what my doctors have taught me to do, and that is go read the papers. Motherfuckers, you've taught me how to read fucking scientific papers and I fucking hate you for it. So, because I can read a paper now, I'm like, fuck, I'm not falling asleep.

Wow.

But you read this, you read the studies, the data, the data is undeniable, freaking undeniable. Now, So we're going to let them go do that on their own.

Yeah.

Then there's our individual stories.

Yes.

So I grew up in an unbelievably emotionally abusive household. I never knew which mother I was going to get. I didn't know if I was going to get the happy mom or I was going to get the angry mom or the condescending mom. And after my dad died, 13, it was kind of, it was a little bit worse. And then thank God she got a boyfriend and then she was never around. And so, and both my parents dealt with a trauma situation where one of their parents died at a very young age. So that creates a whole break in the system.

Yeah.

I don't even know the scientific. So I do, and one of my doctors had told me, hey man, you look a little stressed out. Like gave me some mushrooms. I'm like, wow, this actually works better than the SSRIs. And then that began my journey. And then a year later I go do the session and I do the session. And it was— I go back and I listen to them and I run them through chat and I have the transcripts. It's amazing to me what happens when you get the ego out of the way. It's amazing the truth that has been inside you that comes out. Like, I'm a vastly different person. You've known me 15 years.

Oh, yeah.

I was an asshole.

I wouldn't call you an asshole. You had moments, but we all have moments.

And we all have moments.

Yeah.

Well, okay. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. I thought you were going to agree with me. No, fucker. But I mean, I was a, I was a mess.

We all have our moments.

Yeah. We all have our moments. Yeah. Um, I'm a vastly different person. I'm a vastly different leader. Like, ask my team, like, ask the people that are close to me in their life. Like, we don't even recognize you.

Right.

Amazing. None of the work that has happened to me in the last 15 months is not possible without the use of medicine.

I could wholeheartedly say the same thing about me last 6 years.

We still, we still do journeys. Like Christine and I'll do journeys. We'll, we do journeys with our team members if they want to do them. I've got a team member that wants to do a journey in this week. Like, you know, we're, you know, so for me it has been, and not look, all the relationships in my life are not repaired. My kids still don't talk to me. I've probably, I don't think I've ever shared that one publicly before. They're very mad with me about leaving my last marriage. And there's a lot of residual that came from, you know, before, because of, I was my mom, right? But here's the thing. We don't understand how much trauma we all had and how we bring that forward.

Mm-hmm.

I have doctors that say, you want me to go see Zeller? I had a great life. My dad was like the all-American dad. I had a great family. I had no trauma. They call me 2 weeks later going, oh my God, I forgot all about all these things. Holy shit.

Yeah.

Like, oh my God, thank you, Matt. Like they call me crying.

Yes.

Orthopedic surgeons, type A personalities that like won Survivor Island, right? You know?

Yeah.

They'll, they'll be like, I'll be at a conference going, can we go have lunch? And they just start weeping going, I have no idea.

Yeah.

Why I made these decisions this way.

I just yesterday I did a coaching call with Perry's new assistant. Just privacy. I won't mention names.

Yeah.

Anyway, so, and because I wanted to demonstrate, here's the type of coaching I do. Perry wanted to know, can I do it for like big events? Can I do it for audiences? Which is yes. I said, and so I said, let me do an example with you to show you how it works. So I did it with her and we were processing grief. She was getting really upset about her dog is dying. She had this dog, she's had it for 11 years. Dog has cancer. Dog's going to die. She's feeling these big emotions. And so we're processing this. We're We're half an hour, 30 minutes into this, and her whole countenance changed. She begins rocking in her chair. Her body's lighting up. I'm like, okay, what's going on? And what happened is what had started with grief around my dog's going to die to, I was fucking abandoned growing up by my family and I'm fucking mad.

Oh my God.

Like, oh, here we go. I said, here we go. Now let's lock in. And that's the shit we get to. So there's abandonment. We think it's this thing over here, but healing is not a lateral move. It's, it's an organic move. And so what may start with the dog is gonna die is like, motherfucker, you abandoned me and I gotta process rage and anger. So that's—

How dare you abandon me?

Exactly. So, so I, I hear you. It, it is—

That was, that was me with my, I would jump. I go to my session with Mike. I'm like, yeah, we're gonna deal with the bankruptcy. We're gonna deal with my mom. Right?

Yeah.

Boom. Right. As soon as he takes me through the meditative process, bam, I'm right back in the green room where my father died and boom. He drops dead immediately, right? And I see how little Matty boy took over.

His role.

He became the leader. And it was, I tell people I had Tom Brady on the bench and it was like I was letting Brian Hoyer play the quarterback. Understand everything from there. I'm like, in an instant, in an instant, Brandon, you clicked in. I understood the whole fucking thing. And I was like, wow. Oh my God. Oh, I literally, you on the audio, I literally go, holy fucking shit. Oh my God. For 30 minutes.

Wow.

I saw everything. I saw why businesses failed. I saw why my marriage to Sarah failed. I understood why my kids, I had a difficult relationship with my children. I understood why I kept my mom at bay. I understood why I had very little relationship with my brothers and sisters, even though I wanted it. I understood how that little ver— that version right there took over And just tried to make sure that everybody was taken care of. He took on every burden because it was how he could show value.

The savior.

The savior. And then I see, we did another session and we see how I was bullied as a kid and I was, my friends would be like, they'd just like run and leave you like playing hide and seek and then you'd be gone.

Oh, okay.

Right. So I saw all these patterns in my life that I'd completely forgotten about, Brandon, completely forgotten about. I could see all these patterns in my life. Well, no wonder why I blow up relationships before they come to their end, because I want to be the one in control. Like, and like, here's the thing. I was never beaten. I was never physically, I was never sexually abused. Right? Like, I don't have any of that. Right. But trauma's trauma. Yeah.

Whether it's capital T or lowercase, it's trauma.

Right. And it's, it's trauma. Trauma's all relative, right?

You touch on something that I think it's important specifically for men to hear because my observation is the biggest fear a man can have, the most terrifying fear for a man is the idea of being perceived as weak or perceiving yourself as weak. And so that's why there's resistance around the idea of therapy and emotions and feelings. And so—

I've done a fuck ton of therapy.

Sure, sure. It took you a It took you something to break yourself into it.

Yeah. I mean, I started, I'm doing therapy for 20 years.

Sure. Perfect. Beautiful. Lovely. Congratulations.

What about post-therapy?

I think people should be assigned a therapist at birth, personally.

I think they should be given Molly, MDMA, or mushrooms.

And mushrooms, right?

Yeah. Start at the age of 8.

By 3.

Yeah.

Well, on a side note, ayahuasca.

Okay.

The medicine woman I use, which I met on a dating app, which I learned from mushrooms, which we'll get into. She said that when she was training as a medicine woman in Peru, Says the mothers who are nursing their children put a drop of ayahuasca on their nipple and they begin to put the medicine into children at a very young age.

Great.

Fascinating.

Anyway, just more.

Do that. All right. You want me to put it on my nipple now or for the—

Later. I mean, the cameras are rolling now.

Thank you.

People have to give us $20 and it's hard. They got to give out Venmo and all that.

I can feel the sexual tension.

No, that's derision.

Derision. It's rage.

It's disgust. Disgust, right. So this, so the mush, so The cracking open.

So the fact that you, like, you're embracing the emotional aspect of it, which, you know, there's the mental, there's the emotional. Like we were talking about earlier, most of the, I think the self-help stuff has been in the brain and which for guys like us who are more somatic and they feel, you know, delving into that world, mushrooms, psychedelics, Molly are a wonderful tool to get there when you're not used to, when you're not used to getting there.

It's impossible to get there without it.

Yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't say impossible. It's pretty hard. Yeah. Because we have such deep programming.

Yes. Yeah. So, well, like, where do you begin?

What are some of the things that have come to you in your sessions?

Oh, dear Lord. Okay. So I was introduced to mushrooms in 2020. Of course, I'm in LA, uh, my aunt visiting, and I'm on a dating app. And all good stories start with a dating app. And I met—

All good stories that over— for men over 50, all good stories start with, I was on Tinder. Yeah.

Okay. So I'm on dating app and I meet, uh, this wonderful woman named Shanti and we have been friends and— Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a Shanti. Shanti. Shanti. Yes. Shanti Lux is her name.

How old is she? 40s. God, I fucking think I know her.

Oh, she's amazing. Absolutely love Reddish. She changed her hair color. She's absolutely fucking amazing. She lives in Orange County.

Okay, keep going.

Okay. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll introduce you because she's so cool. I love the shit out of her. She's the one who introduced me to mushrooms. So I'm telling her everything that's going on with my family and I'm telling about my kids and, and there's, there's ideation and, and she's like, have you ever done mushrooms? Like, No. So she flies in and my son and I, who was my son who was 15 and I, we do mushrooms in my living room in Colorado. And my son who was going through depression, he was on SSRIs.

Is that her?

Hold on. No.

Damn.

No, no.

If that was— no, bro.

You know what I mean?

Okay.

Okay.

I'd be like, wow.

Yeah. But she does have red hair anyway. So she comes in, I do my first mushroom journey, 2021, February. And I did it primarily for my son. And my son has this tremendous vision for his life. Now, he was addicted to alcohol. I had no clue.

Which one?

My youngest. He was 15, 16, 15, 16. And he was addicted to alcohol. I had no idea. He was really, you know, he had really taken the divorce very hard and he was in a really rough place. And I'm like, what, you know, bleeding for him, whatever can I do for you? So we do mushrooms together. He has this amazing vision for his life. that comes out of this mushroom. He starts microdosing, takes himself off his own medication, tells his— this is great— he tells his counselor via Zoom meeting that, yeah, I did mushrooms and I'm microdosing. And like, my ex, who was a nurse, freaks out like, oh my God, I'm going to lose my license because we're giving our kid mushrooms. I said, no, it's all my decision. So I get on with counselor and the counselor's boss. I said, it's And I said, listen to me very closely. I will go before any judge and I will go before any court and I will defend this decision to the death because this decision to go on mushrooms helped my son, saved his life. And he took himself off the drugs.

I've heard this story a bunch.

And they're like, okay, never heard anything about it again. So that was my first intro to psychedelics. What happened after that was quite fascinating. So over time, you know, it was doing mushrooms for the healing work, the going inward, the raising the vibration, the trauma excavation, all of it. Beautiful. Very, very powerful. I met another woman. We became very, very close friends and we started doing mushrooms together. 2 or 3 journeys in, we were doing mushrooms about every 2 months and she was insatiably curious like I was. I'm like, let's, and we started doing these together. 2 or 3 journeys in, something very interesting began to happen. She began to channel. She began to pick up on other beings, entities, things coming through And every one of our journeys, this would begin to happen. And it, we got better and better. We actually operated as a team. I was the receiver. I was the, I was the tuner receiver. My focus, my intention in a mushroom space tuned her like a radio. It was literally like turning channels on a radio, picking up. You want to listen to jazz? You want to listen to blues? You want to listen to a talk show? That's what it was like.

She— we're the reverse. Huh? Christine's a tuning fork.

Tuning fork.

She's the tuning fork. I'm the—

it's going to be really interesting when we do mushrooms together. I'm looking forward to it because I haven't found anyone that tapped in since my friend.

Oh yeah, you wait.

Yeah. I love it. So we began to do this over the course of 3, 4 years and we had amazing beings show up and come through.

When you say amazing beings, somewhere I'm not listening to this is going, let me go listen to the jazz station.

Right, right. I know. I want to check it out. So here's what mushrooms do. Mushrooms are an amplifier. They're an energetic amplifier. They're, they are—

And they melt the ego.

Well, got to be careful how we define ego. So let's pause for that for a minute. Okay. Think of, think of mushrooms are technology. They're not drugs. They're plants. They're technology. Think of them as technology. Okay. When I thought this way, it shifted everything for me. Like, oh, I'm going to take some mushrooms. Right. And we, all these, these, these tools have been kind of suppressed and like, oh, it's for stoners and for people trying to check out. Actually, no, they're very, very, very intense Oh, they're freaking beautiful. So what mushrooms do is they amplify everything. So your signal, your vibration gets tuned up. And what does that mean? That means you get more in tune with what's around you. You feel things. You will physically feel music. You'll physically feel what the person next to you is going through on mushrooms. It's a type of tuning and vibration raising tool. I now call mushrooms conscious organic technology because you can commune with them. They're an interface to what is beyond this physical space that we see. And you can, there's plenty of actual scientific data around that as well as we can go down woo-woo and that, but I'm going to stick to, you know, what I've experienced and what's been solid. So in this space, the veil is being thinned and my focus, if I began to focus in on, we began to hold the intention of like, well, Mm-hmm. Do you know, what about extraterrestrials? What about, what about God? What about angels? What about? And so we began to kind of hold this space. And my friend and I were going to readers, we were going to do tarot and we were going to channelers and we were like getting readings. We were really in this stuff for a while. And then we'd go back into mushroom space and we'd kind of play in that. And what would happen was, is for hours on end, There would be beings coming through. There would be beings that would inhabit. The first being that came through, and, and my friend would full-body channel them, and it was always permission-based. It wasn't like possession. As she's like, she's like, she would describe what's happening.

Yeah, this is not, this is not demonic stuff.

No, no, no, not at all.

I was thinking to myself.

No, everything's permission-based. It was like, oh, there's someone. She would sit there, we'd be, we'd be in that state for about an hour, drop in. She'd go, okay, Brandon, there's someone here? Like, okay, cool. And they, they listened to what I said. Whenever she felt something was a little bit negative, I called it forth and I said, hey, what are you here for? It was literally like you're walking through a bus station and you're, and like, people are coming up to you like, hey, you want to chat? Okay. Who are you? You know, where are you from? It's that.

Wow.

And so what began to happen was, is one of the first civilizations we met Was a civilization of a water-based community of— what do we call them?

Were they Lemurians?

I don't think it'll matter. We never figured out what they were, but they basically, what they said, and they were early on in our journey stages, he says, we're here as insurance because we were new at what we were doing. Okay. What do you mean insurance? I mean, we're just make sure everything goes smoothly because what you're doing is you're calling in connections. And there's infinite connections. You know, we'll just make sure. So they were a water-based, and what was very interesting, what they began to do, how they would channel is they took over my friend's body, not took over, but they used her body to communicate. She would begin speak— she would begin popping and speaking in and talking 100,000 miles an hour, things that she couldn't do outside of the space. And she was actually channeling these water-based beings. And they loved, they loved They loved playing with her body. They're like, we don't have ears. We don't have a nose. They were, they were gills. They were, they were, they were, you know, morphing beings. And they would show up very frequently and they would communicate with us and said, yeah, we're here for insurance. We help you channel your energy and talk to others. So that was one. Then the spirit guides came through.

So there's more. But wait, but wait, there's more.

It gets crazier. Now we're going to get 2 spirit guides and we're going to throw in a 3rd for free. We've, we've had, we've had We've had some interesting beings come through and it was fascinating. And, but most are these beautiful divine, they're spirit guides, they're angels. And they come through.

What would you say to somebody that's listening to this right now going, I don't want to fucking listen to spirit guides. I just want to go, I just, I just want to break through some trauma. Do I have to listen to spirit guides to break through trauma?

No. So my experience has been unusual in mushrooms.

Well, yeah, that would make sense because you're an unusual guy. I've known you for a long time. You're a very odd, different than usual guy. Thank you. If you haven't figured it out yet, people, Brandon's a little bit different.

A little bit different. So, so yeah, so now that's extremely common for me on mushrooms. Yeah.

So when I go into a mushroom space, I would tell, I would tell you that we have some, I can't wait to do a journey with you. Let me put it to you that way. Because yes, I know the chemistry that you and I have. Obviously just sitting here, we've always had boom. Like we didn't talk to each other, what, 5 years? Got on the phone, it was like, yeah, fuck, we gotta go. It's been an hour. I gotta catch a flight or something. But I would tell you, that, you know, when you first start with doing the mushrooms, you're going to get some breakthroughs. And if you follow the path, you just might learn a few things about yourself and your programming that then you would realize that maybe what Brandon is saying doesn't sound all that far-fetched.

Right.

Right. I mean, you're, you're, once you do something, you're like, freaking—

I'm all in. I'm all or nothing. You start at 5.

And I jump into the deep end of the pool. Yeah. That's what I do without floaties.

And I flap around and I almost drown. I cough and sputter. Then I get out and I sit on the edge and I said, okay, what did I learn? What was that about? But that's the only way I know how to do things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I enjoy it. I'm gonna jump into the water, I'm gonna flap around, and I'm gonna— so we jumped in the water and we did this for 4 or 5 years consistently.

Aliens?

Oh, we can talk aliens for sure. The— and let me be clear, the first year year and a half, the psychedelic work I did was all around trauma. It was all around—

What was some of the trauma that you let go?

It was abandonment as a child. It was having, uh, but your parents, you love your parents. You love the fuck outta my parents.

You love the fuck outta your mom and you, you idolize your dad.

But I have no memory of my mother interaction with her growing up.

Oh yeah. I remember you telling me that. 'Cause that's just the way she was wired.

So my, my mode of operandi growing up was You wanted something, you chase it.

You chase— yeah, that sounds me.

Chase the feminine. You chase business, you chase money, you chase, you chase, you chase, you chase, you chase.

God, it's amazing how you and I are so—

find it. We are very similar.

We're very terrifying. Yeah, I know.

Right. It's gonna—

no, 'cause that's me. I chase, chase women, chase money, chase success, chase this, chase, chase, chase, chase, chase. When I am a receiver, my human design is I'm a receiver.

Exactly. Yeah.

I'm supposed, I'm a lighthouse. I'm supposed to be on the shore. Right.

Same. I wait to respond.

I've gotten one tattoo here. There's a horse is going to be going here and then there's a tattoo You want me to show you my lower back tattoo? Of the stamp? Yeah.

No, you've seen it. Okay. Never mind. Let's keep going.

The, the, I, no, the, the lighthouse is gonna go on the delt.

But, but chasing, chasing parents for attention. The way I got attention.

Yeah.

Was to pretend I was sick. Was to pretend that was—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of mine too.

Victim.

Yep. Perfect.

I could pretend I was sick. That's how I got, that's got attention.

God, I didn't realize that. Well, thanks.

So I remember the moment I adopted that strategy to get attention from mom. Yeah.

I used to fake I was sick all the time.

And then, and then I did it. Then you carry that shit onto adult cuz it's a strategy. A victim is a strategy.

Yep.

Savior is a strategy. You're trying to get something. You're not, oh no, I'm a victim. No, you're using it as a strategy. Anyway, so that's, that's a lot of what came out and healing around that and realizing abandonment, realizing that I was a savior. I was saving in my marriage. I was saving the women I dated post-divorce. You know, there was, there was an aspect of me of let me save you.

Now, same here.

It doesn't have to make your wife—

Second wife. That was my second wife.

Saving.

I was trying to save her.

Save her. So I don't want to make helping people wrong, but helping when it goes negative, there's a big difference. There's a different vibration. So the savior is trying to get something. He's trying to feel valid.

Well, because when you're trying, when you're the savior, you sacrifice everything.

Yourself.

You sacrifice yourself versus if you're somebody that's helping. I like it. So this is how it's been told to me. Instead of being in the rescue boat, I was the one that went on the rescue boat and would try to rescue the ships as they were drowning. What I'm supposed to be is I'm supposed to be the lighthouse on the shore, sending out a consistent signal every single day.

Beautiful.

Calling people in so that they don't get the rocky shores.

Yes, precisely the same.

Okay, so that's the difference. And I was, I was an amazing savior and I would create, I'd create environments where businesses would do great and then it collapsed. And guess what I'd have to do. I had to step in and be the savior.

Right.

Huh.

You created the problem you had to solve.

Amazing. And then I would be the only one that could solve it.

Wow.

And I would show how awesome I was because that's what I did with my mom all the time. Beautiful strategy. Let me show you how awesome I am.

There you go.

Right? Because I never got— yeah, I remember winning an award in college, President's Award, second time I won it. Nobody had ever, to this day, nobody's ever won it twice. I called my mom and I'm like, what do you think Dad would say? And she goes, oh, Dad would think you're nothing more than a glorified bellboy.

Ouch. Ouch.

Think I didn't try to prove something after that in the golf business?

Ouch. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Think I didn't work a little bit harder? Think I didn't sacrifice a little bit more? Didn't think—

sheesh. Yeah.

Never. I got, I got approval from my mom 3 times, twice in the last 6, probably, I'm sorry, 3 times in the last 6 months. Twice happened within 14 days of each other when she was towards the end when she was in hospice because they put her on antidepressant medication. And I went, fuck, if that was my mom growing up, I would be fucking president of the United States. Like, I could fucking change world. I could get world peace. I could solve the Middle East.

Yeah.

And she's like, I'm so proud of you. I'm like, what? Wait, what? Wait, what? I got off the phone. I told Sarah, I'm like, she goes, what's wrong? I go, my mom just told me she was proud of me. She goes, you weren't talking to your mom.

That's not your mom.

She goes, that wasn't your mother. No, seriously. And then it like happened again, like 2 weeks later. And I'm And I'm like, maybe a week later, and I'm like, it just happened again. I gotta call my brothers and sisters.

Like, this is too much. I can't believe this is actually what she's like. So what happened? So this is, so this is, I love this, this story because this is what happens. Trauma, uppercase or lowercase T. So you built a strategy. You wouldn't, the, the Matt that you have become wouldn't exist without that stimulus or lack of stimulus.

Mm-hmm.

Now you've gotten yourself to the point where, look at, look at all the strengths it gave you. And I'm not trying to bypass this different—

No, no, no.

I realize, no, it's created some great But now you get to heal the aspect of the reason why you started doing it.

Oh, it's great.

My, my chasing, my saviorism over the last 7 years, especially in dating, led me down to some beautiful encounters with lovely women.

Same. That's why I'm with Christine.

And, and, and, and environments that I would never step in because I was craving feminine attention. Now, A more healed version of Brandon can now approach relationships a little different.

Yeah.

Not chasing anymore, not needing the validation, uh, you know, not having to walk in and save. I can still enjoy that without using the catalyst of the trauma and building structures and behaviors around the trauma anymore. I can, I can heal that.

Isn't it great?

And still be as awesome as you are or as I am.

Isn't it great?

That's it. That's the tool of mushrooms. That's the tool of psychedelics.

I have been able to process so much stuff in a short amount of time. I mean, everything was about performance and about chasing. Yes.

And men are judged on performance.

And I was really good at it.

Yeah, you were. I mean, you're extremely impressive how you built businesses over the years. Incredible.

I'm really good at it. And then And, but you can only get it to a certain level, which is how I wound up with Zeller. I could see the same patterns repeating. Like, I can grow a business to a certain level and then it just starts to decline because I wasn't a very good leader and I couldn't get the right people around me to take it to the next level. Right. And even Heather, who's been with me 5 years, who's my chief orchestrator, um, she tells me, she goes, if you hadn't gone to see Mike, she goes, I would've gone in like 2 to 3 months. She goes, I couldn't put up with it anymore.

Wow.

And now she's like all in. Love it. Beautiful. She is like, I mean, not any disrespect to her husband, James. Like she is quote unquote the work wife. Like she is like, we have that kind of, we can finish each other's sentences. I'm like, no, you, you know me, you don't have to check with me. Like you have full, you have full rein, you have full providence, right? Like, you know, uh, same thing, you know, Christine, she works for me and, you know, but like we have that kind of relationship. Like, that's what you want to do. Like, there's such this comfort level. And I just realized, Brandon, I would grow things and then I would blow it up so I'd have to be the savior. And I would do it over and over and over again because I wanted to get approval from my mom or the people around me or the women in my life or show everybody how great I was.

Yes.

Or be put on stage at a Kennedy event saying how I turned it around in 6 months and what you have to do and all that. It's, yeah, I wish I could go back to that. You know, the nice thing about longevity medications now, like, you know, when you, we, people that when they hit our age, they're like, oh, I wish I could go back to 30. I have the body of a 30-year-old.

Same.

I have like, I'm on all—

I'm better than I was at 30.

Oh, my cellular age. I don't know. I gotta get my cellular age done.

But it's like— The guys in my gym think I'm on TRT. I'm like, no guys, I just eat very lean, very intentional.

No, I am. I'm on, I'm on all of it.

Are you? Yeah, dude.

Yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I take it all. I mean, the peptides, all of it. I highly recommend it, by the way. If you haven't had your blood work done, peptides, I wanna, oh yeah.

I haven't had your blood work done. I need to do that.

You need to go see Jordana Quinn, Dr. Quinn. I'll introduce you. She's here.

Okay.

I'd love that. She's in Golden.

I've been wanting to do that for a year.

Yeah. Go, she'll go get the blood test done for you and do all the, the, the stomach tests and all that. Go see Jordana. She's here in town. It's a game changer, dude.

Okay.

I mean, my body fat's at 14%.

Beautiful. Good for you.

I mean, I've never had it like that.

Yeah.

I mean, but the point in all of this and regular listeners, that usually comes up with every, everybody that we have on there is just kind of the use of peptides. It is. I have the wisdom at 58. Yeah, I have the wisdom of a 58-year-old. I have the energy and the body and the mind of a mid-30-year-old.

Same, same. Absolutely.

So I don't have to go back to my younger self. I'm with my younger self.

Yes. Thank you.

Right.

My intention is to be ageless.

I was—

I just got back from Costa Rica at an EDM festival.

How was that?

Interesting. Interesting. You know, I like to throw myself in.

We'll talk about that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, it was great. I think— I don't want to yuck anybody's yum. Spiritual tourism kind of a vibe. You know, there's a lot of, lot of big fluffy talk and the patriarchy and, oh, the evils of capitalism, which like, oh, I didn't, I didn't think we were doing that. I thought we were gonna have really good music and maybe do some mushrooms.

The evil capitalism is they're charging you $150 for a bottle of water.

Oh yeah. If we deliver you back. Yeah. Yeah.

That's— I love that one.

Uh, but it was beautiful.

I love it when people say capitalism is evil and then they're like, uh, if you wanna work with me, it's, uh, $4,000.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, okay.

But I learned how to surf. Never been on a surfboard before. Cool. 57. Got in, had a blast. Did a lot of wonderful kind of meditation and, and some writing in the jungle and, you know, in my hammock. So, uh, it was It was fun.

Sweet.

Overall, great experience. Needed.

What is harder? I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. What is, yeah, what is harder now in life that you thought would be easier? Is there anything that's harder in your life now that you thought would be easier?

I'm trying to think of in my 30s, what did I think 57 would feel like? I mean, I thought I was going to be in a walker. You know, there's perceptions like, oh, you're just going to be this old dude.

Don't you still be married? I'm sorry, I forget your wife's name.

No, no, Tammy. Yeah. I thought, oh yeah, yeah. I thought I was going to be married. I thought, okay, we're going to have our little house and we're going to go to our cabin in Wisconsin and we're going to do this. Oh, I thought we were going to be traveling together. And that was one of the things that I realized she didn't want anymore. And that was one of the last things I was talking to her on.

Isn't it hard when they—

it's hard.

Aren't you impressed with people that stay married for 50 years?

It is.

I'm impressed with them. I don't fucking know how they do it.

I think only 5% of the population can make marriage work, traditional marriage work. I think in 100 years it'll be gone.

I don't think that traditional marriage is— we have We're trying to use something from the turn, from the, from the year double zero.

Yeah.

Apply to when people now are living till 80.

Old technology, old frameworks.

It's way old technology.

Old containers.

I mean, look, I love Christine. Whether we get married or not, we'll have to see how that plays out. Sure. I'm also wide open and clear on it that it may not last till my last breath.

There you go.

I would love for it to do.

Right.

Right. But statistically, people change. Containers change.

Absolutely.

I think what I was thinking—

So how about this?

So marriage would be harder if you were married. You would say, would you say my, did you think marriage would be easier by the time you were in 57?

Oh, I thought we'd kind of be the, oh, we're gonna be the old couple. And maybe that's why I blew it up. Maybe that's why I had to walk because I was terrified.

Oh yeah. That's not you. There's no way you—

There's no way I could have made it.

No, you'll always be me.

But I was trying to domesticate myself. Yeah.

That's, that's what you're supposed to do. 'Cause that's what you're supposed to do. Same with To do, stay in the same house and then buy. Yeah. But you know, last time we were, she's like, oh, let's get a house in Florida. I'm like, why the fuck do I want to go to Florida?

Yeah.

I would go to parties and everybody'd be like, I got like 4 more years. My joints hurt. You know, I just hope I can make it. They go, there's another buyout going on. I'm like, what are you kidding me? Yeah. Like, I'm just getting started, man.

I'm just warming up.

I'm just warming up.

Yeah. So I, to, to be fair to myself, I think in my 30s when I thought about growing old and I thought about, it felt domesticated. Yeah. But that's what I was supposed to do. You know, I'm supposed to be the good Christian guy. I'm supposed to be the long-term married guy. That's what you do. And I think that it was suffocating until, so the container couldn't hold me anymore. I grew out of the pot. You know, nobody's wrong. Don't make anything wrong, but I grew out of it.

Yeah. Interesting. What would you say to your kids if they came to you and said, I'm getting married? What would you say to Alex at 24 if he goes, I'm getting married?

Well, he's already said, you know, you know, Dad, I want that. I want a family. I'm like, okay, beautiful. No, but if he came to you right now and said, I'm getting married.

next week.

I would, I would have to— So hard as a dad. I know, right?

So fucking hard.

And I said, it would be, I support you fucking 100%. And I've had to do this. I have to do this as I withdraw from the savior ideology. The savior archetype is I have to remember that everybody's on their own individual path. It's not my job to save them.

Great.

Enter that container. I did. I entered mine with enthusiasm when I got married. As did you. It was a fucking blast.

We had a great party.

Love this woman. We had a blast.

Love Sarah.

Until we didn't.

I love Sarah dearly.

Until we just weren't anymore. And that's okay.

Yeah.

It's really okay.

Yeah.

Again, rant about the container, but the legal aspect, I would say, okay. And one thing I love about growing up with my dad, Anyone that my sister, my brother, and I brought home, they were treated like family. Dad was this just big gregarious dude, and you were family and you were loved, and they immediately were assimilated until they weren't a few years later. So yeah.

If that happened with us and you became part of the family, we'd then have to tell you how much you sucked to become part of the family.

Right.

Okay.

Well, you could list out all your grievances.

Yeah.

So I would approach it like he's on his path. He's going to figure it out. This is a container he's entering. Maybe he'll be one of the very few that can make it work. I don't know, but I can't bias. I'm not going to like that.

But I'm going to love him unconditionally no matter what.

It's like if I was to sit here and try to preach to him about all the reasons why I'm like, he would just shut up, Brandon. Shut the fuck up.

Isn't that the hardest thing to do as a dad? Just shut the fuck up. Okay. It sounds like a great idea. Go ahead. Jump off that cliff. Go right ahead.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh man.

I think that's it though. I think you touched an important point. What's the greatest gift I can give my children is unconditional love and, and like unconditional love.

But you can't love unconditionally. You can't love others unconditionally until you love yourself unconditionally. And that's the journey that you and I have been on.

Yeah.

Yeah. I have learned to love myself unconditionally, even in all my warts. And I've made a lot of mistakes. I've made a fuck ton of mistakes. But as I tell people, it's just a paragraph in the chapter or it's just a chapter in the book. That's all it is.

That's it.

And there's a couple of volumes.

Yeah.

So how do people find the book, buddy?

Undomesticated.info.

Undomesticated.info.

Yeah. So go and sign up. There's some, there's a free chapter in there and I'm diligently working this month to finish it. So I was working through chapter 6 today and which is called The Wilderness. Talks about processing grief, pain, fear, shame, and how to get out of it.

Write a book, you'll wind up in the wilderness for sure. Fuck. I've just got this one done and I'm ready to start doing the next one.

So what's your book about?

Out of the System. It's called— it's a doctor's guide to reclaim their purpose, their power, and their passion.

Oh, love it.

And I talk about how the system is completely designed like the sharecropping of post-Civil War America and how we can save $4 trillion a year in healthcare expenses by getting rid of our existing system and going to direct relationships, moving outside of the insurance-based care system.

I love that.

So, so, fuck, it wouldn't take much to save money in our healthcare system. I mean, we spend 3 to 4x more than anybody else and we have the worst outcomes in the world. So yeah, what are you gonna do?

Bravo.

We're gonna do something about it.

Okay, brother, it was so good to do this. So fun, dude.

You're coming back, right?

Oh my God, I feel like this has been 10 minutes. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta talk more.

I know. So you're gonna come in and we're gonna do some mushrooms?

Then we do this on mushrooms?

No. Oh, okay. Absolutely.

Is that bad? That would be bad.

You could do it Bourbon.

We could do a shot every day.

I don't drink every day anymore. My body can't handle it. I do miss it though.

I do. I do on weekends. I have a couple old fashions.

I can't. I, if I go out occasionally, I'll have Italian wine.

Okay.

Barolos are my favorite.

I have boxed wine.

Yeah, I know. Um, and then, um, I'll have an occasional bourbon or an occasional tequila. I can handle one and that's it. All right. Brandon Boyd, undomesticated.info. Yes. I'm an honor to call you. It's an honor to call you my friend.

Thank you. I've— thank you, Brandon.

I wish we would've spent more time together over the last 15 years, but I intend to change that, my friend.

Well, me too.

I'm so looking forward to it. I love your insights and your energy, and it's a blast.

Thank you.

Just don't take me in the jiu-jitsu room. Okay? I don't wanna break in half. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for listening to Out of the System. Stay classy out there, people. Later. If this episode got you thinking differently, hit follow and share it with someone stuck in the system. Please leave a review. It helps us grow. Want more? Visit mavericksprofitsystem.com to schedule your free discovery call and explore how far your business can go.