The $1,700 Treatment Plan That Costs You the Patient

I own a clinic here in Lehi, Utah called the Movement Clinic. And we're an award-winning sports medicine rehab regenerative clinic. So, we do regenerative medicine, accelerated healing. And that translates into— we also do functional medicine with some niche specialties in chronic health issues. So, that's what I do during the week. And then, I also teach, speak, and train across the country clinicians on several things like hyperbarics, ozone therapy, regenerative biologics.

You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Gillogly, and on Out of the System hosted by Dr. Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare entrepreneurs back. Hear from clinic owners, rebels, and builders who are creating bold, profitable, patient-centered practices and doing it their way. Welcome to Out of the System podcast. This is our first time meeting.

Yeah.

So, uh, not just for everybody that's watching and listening, tell everybody who you are. And what do you do?

Yeah, so my name is Dr. Ryan Myers, and what do I do? Well, I like to tell people that I, in everything that I do, I disrupt healthcare, but—

Which is why you're here.

Yeah. So, but like the what and what I do every day, well, first of all, we'll start with my why. And what I say all the time in everything that we do is in everything that we do, we want to help people live the life that matters most to them free of Mm-hmm. Whether that's pain, illness, inflammation, whatever. So, I own a clinic here in Lehi, Utah called the Movement Clinic. And, we're an award-winning sports medicine rehab regenerative clinic. So, we do regenerative medicine, accelerated healing. And, that translates into— we also do functional medicine with some niche specialties in chronic health issues. So, that's what I do during the week. And then, I also teach, speak, and train across the country clinicians on several things like hyperbarics, ozone therapy, Regenerative biologics.

All my favorite stuff.

Yep.

Love, love all of that stuff.

Yep.

Regenerative.

Fantastic.

Yeah. I mean, that's probably 60% of our client base is that.

Awesome.

So, so let's go way back.

Okay.

Take me back. Where does your story really begin before any of this, before the clinic, before the hyperbaric chambers, all of this? Who were you and what pulled you to this body of work?

Yeah. So I'll go, I'll like go back and jump through a couple of places. So, I mean, always growing up as a kid through high school and everything, I always thought outside of the box and always looked at things in a different way of how, how can we tell a story a different way? How can this be done a different way? You know, now I was gifted several years ago from the, the live-action Cinderella. There's a scene in the beginning of it.

We're gonna go to live-action Cinderella. Yeah.

Yeah. We're, we're going there. Yeah.

Cool. All right.

There's a scene in there in the beginning. She, she ran away into the woods and, you know, to get away from stepmom and they don't know each other yet, but prince and a hunting party come through and they're chasing a deer that she sees and tells to run away. And, and she's interacting with the prince for the first time and she's basically like, well, why do you, why do you hunt? Why do you do this? And the prince says, it's what's been done. And she said, and here's the, here's the profound thing that stood with me for years. She says, just because it's what's been done doesn't mean it's what should be done. And I've always— that's hit me for years, and it's embodied in everything that I think and do, not only from professional, but how I train athletically, how I just do things is just because it's the way it's been done doesn't mean it's the way it should be done. And in fact, it should be the opposite.

Right.

'Cause traditional approaches create traditional outcomes. So, I think I grew up with that in me. You know, I was involved in a lot of different things as a kid growing up from athletics to to theater and music and lots of things and always kind of had this thought of like, well, what's a different way to do this? What's a different way to still be successful but come about it in a way that's never been done before? And so, as I became an adult, I've always been athletic and been involved in that either full-time or on the side. I've also always been either a personal trainer, a coach, a strength and conditioning coach. I have coached elite triathletes and Ironman athletes for years. I've coached CrossFit for 15 years. I've coached Olympic weightlifting. Like, I've been around those worlds for so long. And I actually worked professionally for a lot of years doing building scalable sales and business development infrastructure for different startups and tech companies, especially here in Utah, while I was doing a lot of this on the side. And the opportunity came up to A door opened to go back to school at 30 years old. And my thought was, you know, I had some of my own injuries that were getting treated. And, you know, as a coach and a trainer, feeling limited in what I could provide my athletes, it's kind of like, nope, like there has to be other answers that aren't out there. Because again, I was getting treatment for stuff that kind of was getting better, but not all the way. And I'm like, there has to be more. So I went back to school at 30. My wife and 2 kids stayed here in Utah, and I went down to Southern California to go to school. And commuted back and forth because that was cheaper than moving a family of 4 to Orange County, California at the time.

Yeah, it was very expensive in Orange County.

While you're—

By the way, it's still expensive.

Yeah, yeah. So, while you're a full-time student, so I mean, I worked full-time during that. Well, not full-time, but I worked actually as a CrossFit coach while I went to school and dove into school, but also like from the month 1 of a 3.5-year full-time program, you know, I was attending more certifications and things every weekend, every month. 'Cause I knew that I needed more to construct this new idea of how to do things. What's a new system? What's a new way of producing protocols to help people heal? And so, I went back to school when I was 30, went through that journey, and then did what everybody tells you not to do, came out and started all by myself actually in a gym, started my own thing.

Starting your own chiropractic in the gym.

Yep. Doing rehab movement. So, I specialize in a lot of different muscle activation fascial techniques and training needling and manual therapies and movement. And then, did the second thing that everybody tells you not to do because we grew out of that within a year and a half and I went and got a nice-sized office and overhead, which everybody tells you not to do.

That was easy, right?

Yeah.

There were no struggles.

Yeah. No, it's been fine. So now, we've been in our office that we've been in now, that office for 8 years, and it's doing great. We've got multiple other practitioners and staff that work for us. And, I've had the opportunity to travel around the world with professional athletes, as well as work with patients telehealth-wise all across the country. And then, like I said, speak and teach on a variety of different things all over the place.

So when you were in chiropractic school, when was there a moment even in that space where I don't want to use the— I hate to use the word, use the phrase, the way they were teaching medicine was wrong, but was there something in that Like when you were there that your instincts or your gut told you there was a different, better way?

I think I already knew that going in. Okay. And again, being older, like, you know, I was 30, I had a family, I'd been around, I was, I had been around the chiropractic world. I also had friends who, and, you know, college roommates and stuff that went around into other forms of healthcare. So I think I learned in general healthcare education in general. And right now I've got a colleague who teaches at an osteopathic school. Healthcare education in general, I think regardless of your licensure, is there to help you pass boards.

Absolutely.

And I think they're not shy about that anymore. Like it's—

It's there to create an echo chamber.

Yes. This is the point. And I mean, I would have professors at our school that would say, look, I have to teach you this because this is how the boards are going to ask it, but here's how you actually treat patients. But also for me, I mean, again, I went into it in this mindset of like, I had already been exposed to a lot of things and it's like, okay, like I know I'm going to get what I need so I have a license to do what I need to do. But that's also why I spent 1,000 extra hours while I was in chiropractic school going and getting training other places, because I like— I have to learn what else is out there to construct a new way of healing people that doesn't exist because the current models don't work.

Right.

And so yeah, there were definitely points during that of school You know, of being like, but I also was smart enough and old enough and mature enough to understand, like, like, I get it, right? Like, I didn't blame school. It's like, I know it exists for its reason, its purpose. I'm here for a reason. Um, you know, there are still things that I bring from my education that are helpful. Um, but at the same time, you know, it is limited and, you know, I think it teaches you how to pass the boards, but not to be a great doctor.

Now you had a personal situation that's on your site with your wife, Jenna's her name, right? That she got really, really sick. When did that— walk me through that timeline. When would—

Well, she'd probably been sick since she was a teenager dealing with different things. And then, you know, during the early years of our marriage and, you know, me going back to school, there were definitely chronic health issues.

Like what was going on? Or what do you want to share?

Yeah, I mean, you know, the easiest way to say like chronic, chronic fatigue, you know, mental health issues were a big piece of this that were down, you know, downstream but not the root cause. Joint aches and pains, you know, cognitive issues, kind of what we deal with now with a lot of patients that we see. And it was actually while I was at chiropractic school in like a lunch seminar where someone was talking about some things and my like light bulb started to go off. I'm like, wait, I think this is what this is. And so, you know, I, I sent home to her a list of labs that I wanted to have ran. And luckily she went to a really nice primary care that was like, look, my husband's in school. He wants these labs run. Can you just humor him? And the guy was like, sure. And it was actually interesting. This started a journey now that we've learned so much about, you know, and this would've been in 2014.

Yeah.

And, you know, labs came back positive for Lyme disease. This is a long conversation, so we won't, 'cause there's different thoughts.

Yeah, yeah, there's different variations of Lyme. Yeah, I get that.

But what was interesting was they wouldn't give her her labs back until she met with an infectious disease doctor to try and convince her that that didn't exist.

Wait, that Lyme didn't exist? Yeah.

Wait, no, it didn't. Why? And so look, we could have a whole podcast just about—

Well, no, yeah, I wanna, wanna explore like why?

Well, because, well, the why is because most of these chronic illnesses such as that, mold illnesses, you know, these things that I deal with now, Are not treated successfully with pharmacological tools. They're all treated outside of nutritional healthcare successfully, but poorly in. So—

It's your fricking labs.

I know they wouldn't give 'em to her, which was interesting. So, so anyway, so we figured it out and she started doing care. Luckily, luckily, or fortuitously, her mother had gone through similar and had already found out what wasn't working and what was. So, Back then, my wife went through treatment outside of the country, saved her life. We were already doing some things in our clinic, you know, that were beneficial for her as adjunctive care. And then, I trained with those doctors as well as others and it was kind of like, look, there's ways we can help people that we're not currently. And even in that—

What were some of the things that you— what were some of the protocols that—

Oh, man, everything from hyperbarics to ozone was a really big piece of this. Different versions of stem cells and regenerative therapies and detox So, that's a huge thing that we believe is missing in most of these treatments is in how to stack and combine all those in a strategic model matters more than the individual tools. And, I think that's a lot of what I learned along the way that my mind already thought that way from an injury musculoskeletal pain side of, well, all the tools are good, the tool doesn't matter, it matters how you stack and layer them for the person that's in front of you.

So, does it stack in sequence? The order that you go in, like H-bot before ozone or ozone before H-bot?

Yep. Yep. And timing of before this is done, before— like, I was just teaching at a regenerative medicine conference and we were talking about how if you don't do the work to bring somebody's systemic inflammation down, you're basically sending these amazing little stem cells into a forest fire that'll get burned up before they even have a chance to do their job. So, this is also not only in the same day stacking and sequencing, but week to week, month to month, what needs to be handled first, before you go to the next to actually deliver outcomes. And so really it started this multi-year journey of learning and training and piece— again, piecing those things together in ways that kind of haven't been done before, um, to, you know, where, you know, we've seen the results and I have the confidence now. And I say with somebody, I'm like, look, if you do this the right way, you're gonna get really good success. But it takes consistency. It takes commitment.

Yeah.

You know, all those types of things.

Um, did you care that, did you care that you were breaking the system mold? Did you care that you weren't asking for permission?

Not at all.

Yeah.

No, it's just the way I think.

It's just, and you've always been that way.

Yeah.

Any of your colleagues while you're in chiropractic school say, hey, you're barking up the wrong tree here, or you could be really screwing with fate?

No, I actually feel like if there's a profession that's okay with that more than anything, it's probably that one. Um, You know, and there, we could talk a lot about the chiropractic profession, but I think outside of that, yes, family, people who are connected with conventional healthcare, you know, get really nervous and really apprehensive about that stuff because that's just the way it's been done, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, it's interesting when you go through that from a multi-year perspective of what people get, what people understand, what they're willing to say something about or don't. I think we didn't necessarily face as much opposition ourselves as a lot of other people do, and we still deal with that with patients all the time. I'll say especially like spouse to spouse, if one spouse is sick and the other spouse is not on board or doesn't believe or because it's unconventional or it's not covered by insurance or, you know, those types of— I love when people always ask, you know, something about ozone, right? Is this FDA approved? And I'm like, Well, you take a whole bunch of supplements and none of those are FDA approved. So you can't use that as your argument of what's safe or not. So—

There's a lot of things that are getting injected in your body that are not FDA approved.

Yeah. So, so anyway, no, I don't. I think like my mind has always been the right solutions are the right mix and combo for the person that's in front of you, even if that means You know, that's why I think in everything that I do, I'm disrupting, revolutionizing healthcare, because it has to be, and not once, but continually, because we're learning all the time. We're shifting all the time. Patients are presenting with new things all the time. And, you know, if we're stuck in cookie-cutter models, you're only going to help a very small percentage of the population.

Well, and if you think about what it means to be a doctor, medical professional, it's to never stop asking questions.

Yep.

You know, if you look at, I'm always fascinated about how people take little bits of something and make it mean something, and they don't look at the context and the content, the context of the time of when it was written and the content before it and after it.

Right.

And I'm always fascinated because people will say the love of money is the root of all evil. Well, one, that's not written anywhere in that way. That's the paraphrased version. And if you look at the the context and the timing and the, you know, it has a very different meaning. If you go to the Hippocratic Oath and you actually read the full context of the Hippocratic Oath and you, the content of the Hippocratic Oath, and you look at the context of the time in which it was written, it's actually designed for the doctor to push the envelope constantly. That's what do no harm means.

Yep.

It doesn't mean stay in this box. It means expand your thinking. Look at everything, question everything, question authority, question the way things are done. be looking for new things. And this is Matt's interpretation, but like, you know, we get so far and I'm obviously not, I'm not a doctor, but that's all I work with is doctors. And I see how that has been weaponized to keep people small and narrow-minded. And the only people that get hurt are the patients, the same people that the doctors have sworn to protect.

Right.

I mean, the Hippocratic oath is designed to protect pharmaceutical companies now, right? You know, and the insurance companies. It's actually designed to say, use everything at your disposal to fix the patient. Yep.

Yep.

You ever think about any of that? Like you ever, like in your process, 'cause you're clearly a maverick, you're clearly a guy that thinks outside the box.

Yeah. I mean, I think about it when I have to try and explain to a patient, you know, what, you know, why it's okay to think that way a little bit. But I think it's so naturally ingrained in me that Like, I don't, I just don't spend time trying to justify for myself that it's okay to think outside the box. Cause I just do, you know, and I've learned, and my team knows, like my mind, you know, I've had other providers with me before that, like when I explain stuff or connect dots, they're like, how does your brain think like that? I'm like, I don't know. It just does.

Yeah.

It just does. And, and, and with that comes, it's like, I'm a little messy. Right. So like, systems and logistics, like from an admin side, like that is not my strength, but I have good people to support that so that, you know, I can do what I know how to do of how to figure out how to connect the dots with people and get them better. You know, again, whether it's chronic health or musculoskeletal, like the number of times some of our other providers are like, oh man, we just can't figure this out. I'm like, go look at this. They're like, why? I'm like, just, I just, just do. And that's the answer. So, so it is that, and, you know, but I think we do have to think outside of the box to help help people heal and be creative and co-create in a way that we can actually, you know, these are people's lives and time and money that we're dealing with. And if we're only willing to think linearly, then it's not fair to them either.

How long did it take for Jenna to start feeling better once she started these protocols?

Yeah. I mean, so she'll say that she actively did treatment for 2 and a half years, you know, going out of country. That was only every couple of months, but she was actively doing stuff at home. So, probably ultimately about 2 and a half years till she was pretty close to normal. And I would say now, I mean, she's doing great. I mean, she works out every day. You know, it's not that there's not things she has to maintain and stay on top of and understands what's critical for her. But I mean, I would say for the most part, she's, she's back, but it would probably took 2 and a half to 3 years to actually really say like, yeah, I'm graduated from this to maintenance. You know, and then every few months or so, it's like, oh, we need to make sure we get our eating back, or I need to get back doing these therapies. And that's just human. But we talk about it with movement too and working out. If you have body awareness that, oh, if you don't activate this or make sure you're doing this the right way, that's going to affect your knee. It's the same idea with this thing. It's, you have, you know, body awareness that if you eat a certain way, if you don't do certain habits, you know, that— You're going to have some symptom creep to get back to, not back to where you were, but you might start feeling some things again.

Yeah. It's, I think one of, I love ozone therapy, by the way. Where'd you learn ozone?

Mexico originally. And then I, my first ozone conference that I went to was with Dr. Frank Schallenberger.

Frank's a great guy.

And then I've been to several others and now I build curriculum and teach it and train doctors on it all the time. So kind of cobble together different things from different places.

Yeah. Frank's great. He's, we have him scheduled to be on the program here soon. He's a client for a number of years.

So awesome.

Great, great guy. Well, you want to talk about somebody that has really been a true pioneer?

Yep, exactly.

California ran him out of the state. That's how he wound up in Nevada. So when you're, when you're talking with patients, I'm curious about kind of the journey. So one, it's not lost on me that you're a chiropractor doing ozone IV regen therapies. You have a nurse practitioner on staff, you have a PA on staff. How does that all work?

Well, so luckily here in Utah, scope of practice is pretty broad for chiropractors. So a lot of that I can do and/or oversee. And so, I mean, I have nurses that work for me and then, yeah, I have relationships with, you know, medical providers if we need to, for, you know, write prescriptions and things like that.

Can you break the skin in Utah?

Can you? Oh yeah.

You can?

Oh yeah.

Oh, wow. Okay, cool.

I can basically inject anything that's not a scheduled drug in Utah. And in fact, just last year, chiropractors in Utah can do stem cell therapies.

So, oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

That's part of the reason I'm here.

Yeah.

'Cause I can do more here.

Yeah. Well, it makes sense. Um, so let's talk about the, the, you have people coming in, like, are they coming in, like, what's your thing that gets people in? Like, what's your, we call it the beachhead in Mavericks, our company. What's the, like, offer that you're, what's the thing that you're known for? Is there a specific tight customer journey that people are coming through? Or is it more of just kind of, you have all these broad-based different things that you offer and people kind of Drift in?

Yeah, I mean, probably 2 categories. I mean, we're completely referral-based for the most part.

So you're not running any ads? No social?

Never have. Yeah. I mean, we do some social media, but it's just organic. And I'm going to be honest, we're not that good at it. So, um, just because we're busy just doing our thing. But yeah, I would say on like the sports med pain rehab side, it's just, we've got a lot of good relationships with, you know, facilities, gyms, clubs, teams, networks. But then I think again, you take care of, I always say your best marketing is to take care of the person in front of you. the best way you know how and that solves it. And, I would say same on the chronic health side. I specialize in what's called CIRS, which stands for chronic inflammatory response syndrome secondary to biotoxin exposure.

Yeah.

So, things like mold. However, it totally reframes every chronic Lyme is a CIRS patient. Same with MS, MCAS, long COVID, all those. There has a genetic component to it and we can prove it through diagnostics. So, I say all of that until proven otherwise because I've yet to see any of those patients walk to my office. So, we do the lab work and don't test positive for it.

Okay.

So, and again, even in that world, there's some, you know, organic content things that I do, but most of all, that comes from word of mouth of, you know, those communities are so tight and so hungry for good answers. And, when people are getting, you know, answers and getting outcomes that people aren't getting other places, you know, word spreads and And you figure it out.

So they all come in. Do they do a, you do diagnostic on everybody right when they come in or is it, how do you—

So to, I mean, really we kind of operate like 2 separate clinics on our pain injury rehab side. New patient comes in, we do an hour, you know, appointment where we do movement training or movement screening, ortho, you know, full diagnostic, full history.

Do an ultrasound or have an MRI done beforehand or just—

No, just depends.

Yeah.

If they need it or not, if they need to, we refer out for those things. But, a full, you know, we do movement, mapping tissue so we know is there torn damaged tissue, you know, what's going on. We treat, build a treatment plan, and do that. On the chronic health side, we do, for most patients, we'll do a discovery call. And, there's 3 reasons or 3 things that we're trying to accomplish. One, what I call what's your current health history. So, what are you living in?

Right.

What are you trying to accomplish? And then, for me to be able to say, here's how we work and here are the next steps. So it's almost kind of a 2, is this a right fit for you? And is it a right fit for us to move forward? If it is, here's next steps. And then we go through diagnostics and whatever might be needed at that point.

So when you're working with a patient, are you doing more of a model of they're paying every time they come in à la carte, or are you putting together a package and putting together a full—

We do both.

You do both. Which do you find works better?

For our pain injury rehab regenerative side, when they pay as they go works amazing. For our chronic health side, more package-driven because most of them are doing longer care plans. And so, you know, we're packaging multiple therapies together and things like that.

Right.

So, you know, you're able to play with pricing and margin and things like that a little bit better to help make it more economically approachable for them, but still financially beneficial. You know, for us, we're on the other side, you could have an ankle sprain that you see 2 or 3 times. You could have a chronic low back person that you see, you know, 12, 16 times, just kind of depends. And so, and we've tried doing packages on that way and that those patient base and that model tends to work better of still, hey, here's your treatment plan. But people are just swiping as they go and we've had no problems with that.

Yeah.

But the chronic health side, more package-based.

Interesting. Interesting. You know, we always find packages work better than à la carte because there is a buyer fatigue, but it just, it's always interesting to hear what people, how everybody structures it a little bit differently. So I always find that fascinating. Do you, now, are people coming to you? Do you, let's talk about like on Not on the regen side, on like the functional side, on the illness side, chronic illness side. Do you, by the time they're coming to you, do you feel like that patient has an understanding of what ozone is and what hyperbaric is? Or is that something that you feel that you have to explain more to them?

So more now than 5 years ago, for sure.

When you say more now, what does that mean?

I would say, I would say they've heard of them more. And some of them have tried some version of that. Okay. However, what I like, ozone's a great example. What I always explain, people are like, oh, I've done ozone before. And I'm like, well, ozone is a molecule. So, tell me how you've done it because just because you've done ozone doesn't mean you've done it in a way that's beneficial. And usually, it's not.

It's all over the place. So, what are some of the mistakes that you see?

Well, there's, well, there's all different types of dosing, first of all. And then, the reality is that things like that and hyperbarics, oh, I've tried that and it wasn't helpful. It's like, usually the question is, well, how many times? Oh, like once or twice. To which I always respond to them with, if you went to the gym once or twice, did you have a 6-pack right away? And they laugh and they get it. Right. And so—

How often do you want somebody to do— what's your feeling like? What is your—

So, if we're dealing with chronic health issues, like chronic illnesses, hyperbarics for me is a minimum of 40 hours as fast as possible. So, ideally an hour—

40 hours as fast as possible.

Ideally an hour a week, 5 days a week. No less than 3. You know, there's some variations depending on what we're dealing with. And ozone's very similar. The way we dose our ozone IVs, you know, we're looking at sometimes 1 to 2 times a week till you get to 10 to 20 IVs as a first phase before we recheck labs. So—

Wow.

So, that's why when, you know, and I know our dosing protocols and how they work, And so it's also, okay, you know, you've tried this stuff once or twice in the past, or maybe did ozone once and didn't feel good after. Guess what? You're supposed to probably on your first one or two. And so that's what I mean when I talk about, we always talk about it as like a program protocol or experience that we're giving you, not, we're not giving you a therapy. It's no, here we've done our diagnostic work, so here's what's going on. So I'm going to deliver you a program protocol or experience to help you get to where you want to go to, not just here's a pile of tools, let's hope one of them gets you better.

You know, it's funny, every time I go do HBOT and I was scheduled with travel, I always have to be a little bit careful, but I get to go 2 or 3 times a month, right? Like, yeah, it's just not possible for me to, to get there too. I always fall asleep every single time.

Hey, it's not a bad thing.

It's like, oh God, I get to take an hour nap. It's like the greatest. I do an IV before in and then I go in H-Pod and I'm out.

Well, look, I did it yesterday. I slept for an hour, so it was great. Great. Yeah.

I'm like, is that, is it, I'm just like, is that common?

Like, uh, I think it depends. Like, I mean, I always ask our patients when they get out. I mean, if they're there at 9 in the morning, they're probably not taking a nap. Mm-hmm. You know, if they're there at 2 in the afternoon, yeah, usually like 2 in the afternoon, they're probably falling, dozing off. Yeah.

Yeah.

Some people can, some people can't. Some people are just, you know, wide awake. It's just kind of the way it is.

Was there a, at what point did you realize with, with Jenna's condition, you're coming out, you, you know, you get, you open up the bigger space. At what point did you feel like you were onto something that you had something that was scalable and a viable business option?

Well, I would say coming outta school, even just starting in the like musculoskeletal sports med rehab, I mean, I was onto something. Like, I knew that the way I combined and compiled techniques, you know, even from just having patients that are like, oh, we've never had this before. I've never seen these outcomes before. And so, so early on we knew we, you know, yeah, there's something different here. And again, partially because I had all these technique backgrounds, but I was using them all differently. I always say like, I love techniques and I love to bastardize them of like, how can you—

Mm-hmm.

Break them up and combine this piece with this one and this piece with this one. You know, and, you know, in our clinics won multiple awards for, you know, sports medicine and sports injury and rehab, because it's that we've created these methods and these processes of how do you, you know, toggle together all these different techniques to create a new method that can deliver change. And that's what scaled us for years. And I would say that same exact mindset and same exact approach. has been the same with what we do on the chronic health side of, here's all these things, but how can I tweak and play with my ozone dosing to actually deliver a better outcome than what everybody else is doing? How can I layer that with this? How can I add these tools to do it this way in this sequence to actually get this outcome? It's very different. And so, I think, I mean, I think I knew from the get-go that we had something very different. And then when we started doing the chronic health stuff, it, because I already thought that way, it wasn't like that big of a shift. It was just thinking that way with different tools.

Right.

Right.

So sounds to me like you've always thought this way, like you were saying, like you, this is just something that you've always kind of processed and always done.

Yep.

Has that caused frustration or friction at the clinic because you're always pushing the envelope?

Yeah. Sometimes administratively and logistically with like my admin staff, it does. 'Cause they, it's like, look, and this is not calling myself a genius, but it's that like, kind of like genius mindset that I know how to just figure stuff out. And then it's like, okay, everybody else just kind of has to figure it out, how to support that along with me. And luckily we have good people. It has been frustrating. There's definitely times it's affected us negatively in business and stuff like that too.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but it's, you know, I don't think you get to a place where you can produce You know, substantially, substantially different outcomes unless you're willing to be a little bit messy along the way. And messy doesn't mean negligent, doesn't mean like irresponsible to patients. It means, you know, if I'm not doing things the right way systematically with scheduling and whatever, because I just know, you know, but we, we're figuring that out and having good people around me to make that work. So I have the freedom to play in this box to get people better at work.

Well, success is messy, especially entrepreneurial success. I mean, that's the thing. I get asked this question a lot and I was standing at a conference and I was at a, we were at a party, Christina and I were at a party and a guy comes up and he goes, oh, somebody told me you're an entrepreneur. I'm like, oh God. Okay.

Yeah.

As someone entrepreneur, he goes, oh man, I got these great ideas. Like, what would you, what would you tell me? I, I, you know, I'm, I, you know, I wanna, I'm, I'm gonna start like my own business. And I go, what do you do? And he goes, I'm an engineer. I said, okay, don't do it. And he's like, what? And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, I want to, I want to have my own thing. I go, why do you want to have your own thing?

Right.

And he goes, well, I just, you know, I want the freedom to like do what I want whenever I want. And I'm like, and I said, don't do it. And he's like, what do you mean don't do it? I'm like, look, Becoming an entrepreneur is like taking a vow of omerta with the mafia. You never get out.

Yeah.

Right? Once you're in, once you do your, once you make your first sale, it's like your first, it's like making your bones. Okay? You're in.

Yeah.

You're never getting out.

Yeah.

Right? You're either gonna die, you're gonna go, it's like, it's just, you know, and he's, his eyes are like this and I go, it, it, it completely changes the way of life. Like you wind up being committed to this. You always have to look at things from a completely different viewpoint. You always have to be testing things and breaking things and wondering, is there a better way to do this? There's never a stasis to it. It's always, it's always evolving, right?

Yep. Yeah. And I mean, and look, I always think, I think every entrepreneur thinks like, man, what would it be like to just have the sustainability of like, a paycheck that allows you to forget about everything when you go home at 5 o'clock at night until you have the opportunity to work in that. And then you realize that's miserable.

Yeah.

And so, you know, it's the devil— what's worse, the devil you know or the devil you don't, you know? And, but I think I would rather— I mean, look, this is the other thing my wife and I were talking about this the other day, because I'm an endurance sports person. So Ironman, you know, marathon running, and like there's something inside of me that understands how to push and dig even when it's hard or long. And I think that translates over to being an entrepreneur because—

Do you find this, do you find a similar place when you're, and I'm not an Ironman guy, but when you're, I have friends that have done it and they say you reach a point like in mile 15 of the run or whatever, mile 75 of the 110 bike, whatever, where the pain is all gone. Like everything is, you're just in this different zone. Does that happen for you?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's happened to me in athletics and in work, but then this, you know, they, you know, they, I've read this before and they talk about how entrepreneurs are addicted to suffering, which is good and bad. Right. That's why we all have to learn how to have systems or people or the right whos to help us accomplish the how to systemize those things. Because you can't scale like from through suffering and you can't grow that way. So you've gotta be able to put systems, people, and structure in place to say, okay, knowing how to dig deep is one thing, but how can you scale smarter and without more suffering?

And I've worked with entrepreneurs for 20 years, right? All entrepreneurs. And when I say all, I mean like 90%, 90% of entrepreneurs all are operating their entrepreneurial venture out of some woundedness or PTSD.

Yeah.

There's some trauma that they're, there's somebody they're trying to prove something to. A schoolteacher, a coach, a parent, an uncle, a grandparent, a mother, whatever, or a group of people, or they're trying to, they're trying to, they're trying to overcome some wound. But because of that, they've become so familiar with the wound. They always revisit the wound, which is why you I think entrepreneurs go through up and down cycles like this.

Interesting. Yeah.

You know, like, like you, I would imagine a lot of your friends are entrepreneurs, right? Like you probably find regular people incredibly boring like me. You know, all my friends are entrepreneurs, crazy creatives, right? And they all are a hair manic.

Yeah.

You know, What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I think you, again, like, you know, you look over, I think just over history and the people that have had the largest impact on our culture, on society, on industry, you know, where it's funny that we look back at them now and praise them, but at the time they were the outcasts because they didn't play into the models and the roles. But yeah, without them, I mean, even stuff as simple as what we take for granted nowadays, we wouldn't have, you know? Um, and so I think, yeah, there's a component of that of, but at the same time, you have to have people on the other side too, because they have a role that can help. And so, so there's this synergy that has to exist between those of us that are crazy and don't think the same with those that know how to take that and say, okay, but I'm going to structure that into stuff to accomplish this. But yeah, I, you know, and that's the good and the bad about being an entrepreneur is you're willing to dive risk and sacrifice. But I think the older I get and the longer I'm in it, it's always like, yeah, but now what cost and how can you leverage and pull other levers to solve things so that that cost isn't as high as it used to be?

Is there a wound you're chasing or is there somebody you're proving?

I have no idea. Probably.

Probably. Never thought about it.

Probably multiple.

Yeah.

Probably not in that way, but I don't know. Yeah. It's an interesting thought. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, I'm just curious, you know, it's, there's always something with entrepreneurs that drives us. There's some chip on our shoulder somewhere.

Yeah.

One of the things we've really found is we've had quite a few doctors do some deeply somatic and work with psychedelics and things of that nature. It's always been fascinating. I don't talk to all of them because we have them somewhere else that they go that's legal, right? For them to be able to do it. But it's always fascinating for them to come out and they're like, I had no idea that was the thing that was driving me. It's always fascinating. The ones that I've talked to that want to share, they'd be like, oh yeah, I had no idea that that moment in time when I was whatever, 7, 12, whatever it was.

Yep.

That, that's been the thing that's been driving me to prove something different. Hmm. I just find it fascinating as heck. I, the more I dive into that space, the more I get.

Yeah. So, yeah.

Um, was there, okay, so you've got this, so you've been out, so you're 40-ish?

Yeah, I just turned 42.

Oh, congratulations. By the way, I'm 58. You're getting close to when it gets really good. By the way, 50 fricking rocks.

Good.

Can't wait.

Yeah.

Yeah. 43 is, 42, 43 is when our brain actually finally turns on as guys. Like we actually are like, oh, maybe I was kind of an asshole when I was 30. Um, but you, you get to this place, it gets a lot better from here on out. Um, you're, you, when you look back, do you look back? Do you spend much time looking back and saying, I would've done things differently?

Um, I, I think I used to. And then, what do you do now? Well, it's interesting. So, being in the endurance world, like, I used to be a big Lance Armstrong fan, then I went through a phase of feeling angry about that. And now, I'm kind of like, hey, whatever.

And now, you take peptides and you're like, Lance Armstrong, why?

Lance Armstrong? Now, I'm kind of like, hey, what was he taking? Can I have that? No.

No.

Now—

Wait till you turn 50.

I was actually listening to a podcast with him where someone was interviewing about this, and it stood out to me because he Someone asked him, what would you do differently? And at first I was kind of turned off by his answer and then I got it and he's like, I wouldn't. And the guy's like, well, why? And he's like, because there's no do-overs. So I can't go back and do things differently, but I can learn from what I did. And I think that's always stood out to me of like, you can't—

Interesting take.

Yeah. Because you can't live life with regrets, but you can go back and say, okay, I can't go do that differently. But what can I learn from that experience, either from how I could have, how I could react and respond better next time, how I could, you know, maybe get, handle conversations differently. So, I mean, sure, we can all sit around and say, oh man, I would love to handle that conversation with my wife or my kid differently, but you can't, but you can next time. And so, you know, so doing things differently, I think it's hard.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, as I look at people asking me that now, you know, I'll have high school or college kids who want to get into what I'm doing, like, oh man, like, what path would you take to get here? I'm like, well, my path is the most irregular, zigzaggy, nonlinear, never could have predicted.

But your path is your path.

But I would not have changed anything about it. And I would not have done any of it differently because it's what made me who I am today. So, you know, so that's where it's like, okay, are there any regrets or things that I would do differently if I could do them over. Well, there's no do-overs. So now it's like, how could I learn how to have certain interactions or make different decisions or different thought processes differently for the next time based on what I've learned, learned from the past? So, I mean, we can learn from the past. We can't change it.

Okay. All right. So what are some things that you've learned with regards to this, the way you've structured the business or the way that you've gone about Doing this? What are some things that you've learned?

Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that I've learned over the years in any type of interaction, be it patient, business, et cetera, I think, you know, kid raising teenagers, all of that.

That's a whole different ballgame.

Well, it's all, I mean, so the principles are all the same. I've learned, and again, I'm not perfect at it, but I think I've learned the more we have the ability to respond instead of react and mind pauses in interactions, whether it be a pause in this conversation or pause, meaning I'm not going to respond today, but I will in 2 days to let emotion come down. I think that's been huge for me of how can you respond instead of react? Because respond shares the same root word as responsible. And so really responding is having a responsible return of communication. to someone where reacting is emotional and—

Yeah. Reacting is— yeah. So, I think social media posting. Yeah.

So, again, whether it be patients, people in business, in my own office or relationships, and I've definitely made the mistakes of reacting multiple times, you know, which rarely ends well. And then you have to, you know, you have to pave some gaps or some, you know, you got to fix some wounds that come from that. I think that's number one. And I think Um, so with that, I think patience is something that I've learned more of too.

Um, what would Jenna say? Would she say you're more patient?

Yeah. Yeah. So early on I used to, and I used to brag about this, like it was a, uh, and she will say that, that you used to brag that I was the type of personality that wanted to jump off the cliff and figure out the parachute on the way down. She was the type that wanted like the 6-week course on how the parachute worked and how we landed and all that type of thing. And I think I did approach things that way, but I will say, I think in certain circumstances, especially early, that was beneficial that I have that mindset. But I think with certain things now, it's almost like, well, I don't need to have the 6-week course, but taking some time to analyze options, look at, again, mind the pause a little bit, right?

Right.

Okay, here's an opportunity. Instead of just saying, yeah, it's like, Okay, well, let's look at it. How does it affect this? And I think part of that is I've got more clarity of long-term goals of what I want for my family, what I want for me. So now weighing things against that and using that as a litmus test of does this opportunity or does this direction help that instead of just like, oh, that would be cool. Oh, let's do this. Oh, let's do that. And then all that coming in and causing a mess. Again, I'm still not perfect at that, but I'm way more along those lines. Because yeah, like you said, I don't know if I would go back and change the the times that I jumped off the cliff without a parachute on where some of them worked and it was good that I did that. Others didn't. And if, you know, I paused and figured it out, right, it would probably have gone a little bit better.

Yeah. I find it, um, we in our company, we use a tool called Human Design. Um, and it's astrologically based, right?

I've heard about this.

It's freaking amazing. And I've done Myers-Briggs. I've done them all.

Yeah.

We run every client through it now. So we run Human Design and all you need is your date of birth, where you were born, the time you were born, and your name, right? And based on that, it creates this profile. And then we have a whole process that we run them through with regards to AI. And our doc, you know, imagine doctors are like, horoscope?

That's bullshit, right?

And I'm like, all right, so here's what it says you are. And they're like, Oh my God, you're absolutely right. That is how I prefer to be. We had a client, she's in New Jersey, pain management doc, and she has 5 locations and she's always running around. And I said, I won't use a blank. Your design is that you're supposed to be centered in one place. When you're bopping around to all these different places, it's outside of your design. So you're creating undue stress. You're creating cortisol spikes. You're creating all these things. And she's like, and her husband's sitting there. She goes, "That's what I've been trying to tell you." She goes, "I hate popping around. I don't want to do this other location. I want everybody to come to me. I want to stay at home. I don't want to fight traffic in the you know the Triborough area." Like da da da da da. And when I saw her at one of the events, she came up to me. She goes, "I'm not doing that other clinic. He's going to come work done with me. Like we're going to change. Like we're moving the whole thing. I'm not going to be driving into Brooklyn once a week. Like yeah." To go see 4 patients. And I go, that's— so what I've also learned with my human design is I used to be a fire first kind of guy, right? That's actually completely against my design. My design is I'm supposed to take something and sit on it for 24 to 72 hours. Now you want to talk about changing the game for me as an entrepreneur? It's like, wait a minute, I have permission to wait 72 hours before I make a decision.

It's awesome.

And I don't move forward unless I've got a blank F guess in my gut.

Yeah.

Oh, this is the best.

Like, that's awesome.

I haven't And like, I used to birth all these Ishmaels of like half-born, you know, half-birthed ideas, right?

Yeah.

You know, so like, have you, I, I say all that, like, have you, like, do you use personality profiles in your company? Do you kind of get an understanding? Like, how do you, how do you know how you're wired?

Yeah, I think I've toyed around with stuff, but never formally.

Okay.

Uh, I've looked into some human design stuff and I think, you know, and others have done, I don't even know the names of all the things. Yeah. I'm fascinated.

Gene code.

Yeah. There's so many, right? And they're all good, you know, and I think it's just, you know, I think my personality is the type that I read that stuff and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it. And then it's like, I just— busy, busy. I got stuff to do. But I think there's, you know, I think all that stuff's interesting to learn where you fit and what it means and how you communicate with others and how they communicate with you so you can figure out those types of things.

Do you have a place in your body that you feel When you know the right, it's the right decision?

When I know it's the right decision?

Yeah. So like, how did you know, how did you know Jenna was the right one? Was there a place in your body?

Did you know?

Was it a, was it an instantaneous thing?

Yeah. So I, so I feel like the way I, I feel that is like clarity in my mind and when it's wrong, it's in my gut.

Oh, when it's wrong, it's in your gut. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. But the clarity comes in your mind.

Yeah. Almost like downloads.

Yep. Oh, okay. So are you the type of person that moves pretty fast when you get those? Like, this is where you're going to go?

Yeah. There's no reason to wait once you know.

Yeah. I think that's fascinating. That's gotta be, your team's gotta just hate that some days. Yeah.

Yep.

Yep. So who handles the day-to-day of the practice?

Are you the office? Yeah. So I've got a, I've got an office manager and a couple of admin people that are awesome. and great and, you know, embrace some of the crazy and try to pave it a little bit.

But as you, as the founder and the operator, are you involved in day-to-day decisions or are you out of it?

Still a little bit, trying to get out of it more and more.

What's the hurdle?

You know, it's probably the biggest hurdle is probably I don't let go of it like I should.

So. Why not let go?

That's a great question. Yeah.

Yeah. If you knew the answer, you would've let go, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's probably just that, you know, it's probably just need to rip the bandaid off and let it go.

You think it's control? You think it's—

That's definitely a piece of it for sure.

Uh, what do you think is like, what would happen if you let go?

Uh, probably a lot of good things would happen if I let go.

Yeah. So why not let go?

Uh, yeah.

You know, why do you think entrepreneurs have such a hard time letting go?

I think there's an ownership piece of like your baby, right? Um, I think there's definitely— Yeah.

But they do grow up and get in car wrecks.

I know, right? So I think there's a component of that, you know, of, you know, are they going to care about it enough? Are they going to handle it enough? And then you start realizing that enough is not perfect, you know? And, you know, and so I think that's probably the biggest is there, I don't even think it's trust. I think it's, there's just a weird ownership of like, are you ready to hand your baby to other people?

It's called sending them to college.

Yeah, right. And so, and I think, you know, I think the sooner the better, probably for most people, but I think you're right. I mean, entrepreneurs in general, I think, you know, statistically, and you read about this, probably the majority of the reason why most entrepreneurs fail is because they don't do this. Because we're visionaries, we're not integrators and operators, but we try to be. Um, and so, you know, the more you can have the right integrators and operators around you to handle your crazy, that's what matters.

Um, Kat, our mutual friend who was just, we did a podcast with her. She's helped me tremendously with that. She has been, she's been a godsend to me for the last 18 months.

Yeah, she's amazing.

She is absolutely amazing. Like, um, I always joke with her. I joked with her one time. 'Cause she introduced us to Human Design and we ran it on her company one day. And then I ran my mother 'cause my mom was incredibly difficult. Like, she was a giant pain in the ass. And so you're wondering where the wounding comes from. It was her. So, um, and I, I had cats and I ran my mom's and I went, shit, they're exactly the same. And I'm like, oh, cat's what would I would have had if I had a regulated mom versus the crazy-ass one that I had. And I, she's, The point, Kat, is she's been so helpful of just being so— she'll say things to me like, we were stuck. The company's stuck at a revenue standpoint. And she calls me up and like, we had taken a step, a huge step back in revenue. And then we were stuck at a plateau. And she called me up in a very gentle way and she said, do you know what the problem is as to why we're stuck in revenue? I'm like, hmm, I got a few ideas. We need some better lead gen. She's She's like, no, it's you.

Yeah. I think she said that to me before.

Yeah. Did she really? And she goes—

Probably more than once.

You have a mental block on revenue. And she goes, which is causing you to keep control over things that you shouldn't control. That began, we're in month 15, a 15-month journey. Now revenue's up massively.

That's awesome.

I mean, this month is just insane, right? Because that compounding effect on the work. The thing I always encourage entrepreneurs to do is you always— entrepreneurs start from a place of, I need a better tactic. I need a better lead gen. I need a better modality for healing a patient.

Right.

Especially in the medical space, it's always default to my problems can be solved if I just learn how to a little bit more about HBOT or ozone or how to inject with my left foot standing on my left foot or some shit like that. Right? The reality is, Is it's the inner deep work of going into the corners that you have, don't even know that are there, right? That caused the most massive transformation. Her comment to me on that, literally, I was like, okay, we're going to dive into this. And I started diving into it. I was like, oh, I didn't recognize these patterns.

Yeah.

And I started seeing the patterns. It's kind of like looking at the blood panel of sick patients. And I started noticing it and I was like, wait a minute, where does that come from? So now I recognize the pattern is there. Where does it come from? Oh, what's its origin?

Yeah.

Right. Just like a chronic disease. Now I can treat it.

Yep.

And when I work with entrepreneurs, they all think, 90% of them all think it's, I need another program or another tactic. They really need is like, you have to examine what is the block? Why does it exist? What is it protecting me from? And how do I, like, what's the root origin of it? Where did it start? And man, when you get that, like, that's, we see like people all of a sudden their companies will just go bam like that instantaneously. So now you know what to do. You ready to dive into that right now? No, I'm kidding.

Didn't know it was that kind of session. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, look, you know, it's why not?

You know, I mean, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding with you. Yeah. I, uh, when, you know, you do a lot of training with, with new practices, right? Mm-hmm. What do you see? What do you see with these doctors that are leaving? Why are they leaving? What's, what's causing them to leave the system?

You mean like this?

So like when you're teaching Regen or when you're talk— when you're teaching, teaching PRP injections or ozone or HBOT, why?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I hear from people leaving conventional medicine is they're sick and tired of seeing or doing things with patients that aren't getting better, sick and tired of being able to not have a say or control in it because it's a payer-driven culture, not a clinically driven culture. And having this, you know, like I actually believe that most— and I have friends that work in quote-unquote conventional healthcare who are amazing. And I think most people get into healthcare wanting to truly— help people.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and to their— to not fault any of them, the system is just not built to do that. And so they can want it all they want, but they're incentivized in that structure— incentivized or not, it's structured to not do that because you have 3-minute appointments to figure out somebody's pain that they've had for 20 years, right? It's just not going to happen.

You barely get past their data point.

So you, you can want it as much as you want to be the one to give to that, But you're not going to.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I always joke around. I have a good friend who, he went to DO school, so he was an osteopath, but then went on a multi-year, you know, fellowship in pain management. And that's what he does now, makes excellent money doing pain management techniques inside a hospital system. And I joke around with him because I remember once he told me, he's like, ah, he's like, I'd love to take a day a week to just go back into practice and do osteopathic manual therapies. And I looked at him and I said, no, you wouldn't. No, you don't. You don't want to do that. Like, it's superheroic that you're saying that, right? But you know, here you are making thousands of dollars an hour doing these crazy pain procedures. You don't want to go make $300 an hour doing manual procedures from osteopathic school.

Gotcha.

Like superheroic that you think that because, but to me, that tells me he still in his heart of hearts wants to help people heal. And he's just in a system that, you know, that can, can help people. But I think, you know, the ones that I'm working with are like, look, they've either had a personal experience, a family member, themselves, somebody close to them that I won't say conventional healthcare failed them because I think that's a really interesting term. Yeah. But, and I don't know if I agree. I don't necessarily agree. I don't agree. It fails.

It just fails. Means like you crash.

No, it just means it didn't serve them sufficiently. That's a really good way to put And so, whether it was a family member with cancer or some type of chronic health, like something, right, where they then somebody in the— someone in the circle had to go outside and they find that and experience that and have some type of sustainable health healing outcome where they then say, oh, this is interesting. And then, they kind of start on this, they start to dabble, right? Well, okay, what else is there? What is this ozone thing? What is this other stuff? And then, they start thinking, oh, this is— In fact, a few months ago, I helped teach an ozone course and we we had there actually an interventional pain management guy who was already doing ozone in his practice because his dad had health issues, went to Italy to have some ozone procedures done, and it totally took care of it. He's like, I got to start figuring this out.

Yeah.

So, now, he's kind of created this integrative pain management place where he's crossing some, you know, bringing stuff together. But, I think that's the biggest thing. I think people are feeling this drive to heal, like to actually get people better. And, are realizing, man, what I've been doing for the last 20 years is not cutting it. And, not that it's not doing good, but it's like, ugh, there's more people not graduating care than are or are chronic.

When they graduate, they die.

Or chronic prescription's really the answer. And, I think they start saying, what else is there? Which I love, but the good and bad of that, I'm like, you have to totally be willing to change how you Because you have to.

Well, it's not just how you think about the treatment. You have now have to change the way you think about business.

And you have to think diagno— oh, we had this conversation at a clinic that I consult with where, you know, with just like simple supplies and they're like, oh yeah, like we just use this and throw it away and use this, throw it away. I'm like, hold on a second. You can actually use that thing 5 times before you throw it away. And they're like, oh, I would, I would never do that. I'm like, yeah, when you're working in a hospital system who you don't care an ounce about their budget, You'll just blow through supplies like crazy because you don't care. But I'm like, oh, in a business that's actually cash-run operated, like, you're going to actually— okay, this supply is $2 cheaper than that one, so we're going to use this one, right? We're going to make those choices. We're going to do those things, you know. Oh, if you blow through 10 of those when you're only supposed to use 3, like, that becomes a, you know, an overhead problem, right?

Adds up big time.

And it's just a different way of thinking. It's a different way of realizing that actually, like, you can do a lot of things Totally still within the lines of what's— I don't even know the right words of what's legally all that type of stuff, but ozone's a great example. I mean, I have nurses who are like, man, when you're in the hospital and blood is this thing that you don't mess around with, then you bring someone in to do ozone the first time and they're like, wait, you want me to do what? I'm like, oh, yeah, it's been safe. We've been doing it 100 years. To me, it's just like, yeah, yeah, it's totally fine.

Yeah.

Ah, you gotta, you know, and I'm like, nope, this is actually incredibly safe, incredibly effective, you know? And that's when you start getting them to start thinking this way, you know, like, look, they've been using this to heal COVID. They've been using this to do all sorts of stuff around the world for a really long time, you know? So it's not new, it's just new to you.

Right.

And that's okay.

When you are doing these trainings and you have people that are leaving the system or they're thinking about leaving the system. How scared are they to leave the system? Like, or how daunting does it feel to them to start a cash practice?

I think that's a good question because I would probably say there's part of them that are really, I don't know if I'd say scared. I'd say they're excited because they're like, They feel like they're on a mission, almost apprehension because it's totally new to them of how it is, is tough. And we've seen this in our practice of where we've brought practitioners over who have only ever worked in insurance-based, you know, and now in their mind they're like, oh, I'm, I know this is the right treatment plan for them, but I'm doing the math in my head.

And it's like, what mistakes do they make when they start their first cash, when they start the cash practice right off the bat?

What mis—

what are common mistakes?

So they under, I won't say prescribe, but they under-recommend. So they—

Yeah, because that's a part of the system. You only do a little bit at a time.

Well, no, it's a fear of charging somebody dollars now.

Yeah.

And so then their head, they're like, the right treatment plan for them might cost— and I've been guilty of this, right? Might be $5,000, but like, that's expensive. Could I afford it? You know, so then they think with their own wallet. So then they'll say, oh, well, let's just start here. You know, this is $1,700. And then when they don't get better during that, the people are done and gone because you had your chance, right? And so I think they under-recommend, I think is the first thing, and then devaluing themselves from a price point standpoint is probably the second.

Yeah.

And I think it comes from those 2 things of being willing to say, yeah, no, this is what it is, this is what it costs, and having the confidence to say, because you've done your objective diagnostic work, say, yeah, this is what it is, this is how we get people better, this is the way that it works. And, you know, not necessarily take it or leave it because you do have a heart and like you do, you know, you realize especially in chronic illness, you realize a lot of these people, you're not their first stop.

Right.

And, and so it's how do you have the right form blend of compassion but also business and compassion to say like, okay, let's figure out how to get you on a starting point knowing this might not be that. But I think that all just comes from confidence too that, you know, yes, you can move their needle from a health standpoint, And I would say same on the rehab side. You know, we, the rehab side is even more interesting. I think the chronic health side, functional medicine side, patients know and expect that it's not going to be covered by insurance.

Yeah, totally. You know, because they've been down this path for so long.

When we're dealing in our musculoskeletal sports med rehab side, and this is where I think I really see patients vote more with their, for their healthcare with their own dollars, because Most people's insurance covers some form of physical therapy. And—

Now, are you taking some insurance?

No.

Okay.

And some covers— some insurances covers at least some form of chiropractic, but we don't take either of those or we don't take any insurance. So, they literally have to vote, you know, with their own dollars, which I think, A, puts pressure on you to actually deliver. Where I think when you're an insurance model, you can phone in a lot and you still get paid.

Yeah. You don't have to get results.

You're still going to get paid. So, it's like—

Not going to get paid well, But you get paid, right?

And there's less risk. So I think it really makes you as— and we've seen practitioners fail in this model because they can't, they can't hack it. They can't deliver at a high level. They can't have the conversations and be able to feel like they are valuable enough to say, yeah, like I'm this much an hour. Yeah, this is what this is worth. This is— Which again, that's always a hard conversation too, because you still do have to take into account I mean, it becomes much more of an economics game, right? You have to take into account of your area and your demographic and your, you know, if you're moving into the middle of the reservation in New Mexico, you can't charge people $100 an hour, right? So how can you be successful in that, in those types of environments and other places, you know? So it's finding the sweet spot where you fit into the economics, but also, you know, I always talk about if you deliver a product that's better than what other people have access to, the right people are going to come and the right people are going to pay for it.

The thing, the mistake I see people make is they think with their wallet for their customers.

Yes.

And when you have, I mean, I've had chronic, I've had consistent back pain. I'm a, played golf for 50 years. I'm a former professional golfer. And I mean, you hit a lot of golf balls over years, the S1 and L4 and 5 get a little inflamed, a little worn. I told my doctor who did it, Osh Goyle, That when, after he did it, I said I would've paid $15,000 for that because the pain was gone that same day.

Yep.

And I, in, in 8 weeks I was back hitting golf shots at 50%. Same thing when I blew out my elbow, right? Second degree tear, second degree tear, right? 5 years ago, I probably, I, you know, I'd never, I wouldn't be able to play golf again. 'Cause, and PRP, I'm like, I would pay anything for that.

Yeah.

And now I won't pay a lot of money for a couch, right? Like, you know, it's, I buy used luxury cars. I barely buy new ones. Like, I don't I don't, that's not my thing. Yeah. But being able to play the sports and go to the gym and those are vitally important to me. So we, they, the mistake doctors make is I always tell 'em, you ever see the, you ever watch Seinfeld?

Oh yeah.

Okay. Do you remember the episode with Costanza where he started doing everything opposite? Yes. Instead of ordering tuna salad, he got chicken salad.

Yeah. He said he's gonna do everything the opposite of what he would normally do. Yeah.

And so he met these great, beautiful hot chicks. He is like, my name's George. I'm unemployed. I live with my parents. They're like, here's my number.

Yeah.

Okay. So when you leave insurance-based care, do everything, do the George Costanza method, do everything opposite to the way that you've been doing it.

Right.

Because opposite is we're going to do this a little bit and see how it goes. Do a little bit and see how it goes. Do a little bit and see how it goes. No, we're going to do the whole thing. We're going to do this. We're going to say this is the entire plan because I don't have to go to insurance company. And because that creates buyer fatigue when you do a little bit at a time, right? They don't want to come back. So if I put 'em into a program, we know that there's like a, they're going to have like people that do à la carte, like their absorption rate is like 17 to 18% of the total protocol. If you put 'em into an entire, if you put 'em into an entire plan, it's like 85%, like they'll go through the entire thing. Like the numbers are huge, right?

Yeah.

So we back, you know, there's all kinds of studies with regards to how you sell and all of that. Like we approach everything from a science base because because I work with scientists, like I have to prove this to them. So, but when you, like, we see them making, they undercharge, like they say they undervalue and they try to replicate what they were doing insurance, which they think it has to be high volume. That's the only way that they can work. We've proven time and time again, low volume, high margin actually impacts more people positively because you can spend more time with people. You get more positive reviews. Right. You're getting great outcomes and you may be booked out 3, 4 months in advance, but guess what? Another doctor's going to come along that goes through our system that understands that. And what it does is, as John F. Kennedy says, a rising tide lifts all boats. And the more we can do that, people are willing to pay. The average American family spends over $17,000 a year out of pocket for medical care after their insurance premiums.

Hmm.

Think about that.

I believe it. Yeah.

I think it's higher.

I do too.

Right? Because I know my insurance plan doesn't cover crap. Yep. So, I mean, they're already paying for it. They might as well pay it with you.

Yeah.

So, yeah, my thoughts.

I love that.

Yeah. Well, look, uh, it's 1 minute just before the top of the hour. So, and I told you I'd get you out of here at the top of the hour.

Appreciate that.

I'm going to get you out of there. So thank you for coming in. Yeah, it's really cool to meet you. Like we'd never met before this. So this was the first time conversation. This is Joseph Cat Merritt. Next time I'm in Salt Lake, I'd love to swing by and see your place.

Yeah, I'd love to have you down.

And learn more about your HBOT business and all of that.

Yeah, totally.

Anything that you want to give people if they want to reach out to you or like find out about your trainings in HBOT or trainings in— I know you got a million different companies.

Oh man, yeah. I think the best place to reach out to find information about us would be through my clinic. So that would be movementclinicutah.com. That's probably the best place to go.

Yep.

Because you can get in touch with me and anything else that I'm involved in and And we can go from there. But yeah, you know, there'll be a lot more educational things that I'm involved in coming out later this year and into next year. So it'll be great.

Awesome. Thanks for coming in.

I appreciate it, brother.

Thank you.

Yep.

You got it.

Definitely.

Thanks, everybody.

Thanks.

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