A Builder’s Perspective: Tips for Buying & Renting a Home Interview With Brian Tinker

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And welcome to another Change the Year foundation interview. My name is Kendra Seymour, and today I'm joined by Brian Tinker, and he's going to offer us a builder's perspective on how we can be building better and healthier homes. Now, this is actually part of an ongoing series called Tips for Buying and Running a Healthier Home where I've previously talked with a realtor, an IEP home inspector, and other key individuals. You can actually find this series on our website by going to changetheairfoundation.org and type in the search Tips for Buying or Running a Healthier Home and you'll see that. And this interview, I know, is going to be a fantastic addition to this series. You can also watch all of our interviews on YouTube and our forthcoming podcast if you prefer to listen. So thank you, Brian, so much for being here.

It's great to be here with you, Kendra. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

I was so interested. We connected and you have such a compelling story, your background and how you got started, because I know part of what you do now was a result of what happened to your own family. So can you tell us a bit about how you, what led you to, you know, found Tinker Homes and what you do and, and kind of your origin story?

Sure, sure. So I started Tinker Homes 20 years ago, and it was, we're a builder in the Denver area and we work a lot in the mountains and things of that nature. But our story was definitely changed quite a bit in terms of how building works and what happens in buildings and building science. When my son started getting ill and we couldn't figure it out, and he was in college and he was a soccer player and he really just couldn't, couldn't play anymore. He was in pain all the time. And we couldn't figure out what was happening with him. He went to all sorts of doctors where his school was, and finally when he came home, we went to a physician in the Boulder area and he definitely said, yes, I can affirm that from all of the screening tests that your son most likely has sirs, Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. And basically then, okay, this is what we need to do. We need to do some genetic testing to make sure that he does and which, which one of the HLA genes he has and those type of. And so during that first initial interview or doctor's meeting that we had with him, he said, well, that also means that somebody else has one of you two has this gene as well. Because he couldn't have it without you. And though most of the people that you are talking with have this story, or a lot of them understand this type of story. So we immediately knew my wife had, because we'd been searching for answers for decades for her and these weird autoimmune things that she felt were going on. And that led to more and more understanding of where does this come from? How does it happen? We had. We were living in a 1931 home that never had, you know, foundation waterproofing or proper drainage, all sorts of things, bad windows. And those things led to not having mold that you could just see on the walls or anything like that. But for sure there's mold in the house and mold spores and we got it tested and all that type of thing. Well, for me personally, that also started a new journey that led to, okay, what is the proper building science that allows us not to have mold growing in homes? How do we prevent it? How do we stop it if it's already happened? What do people do if they live in a house that's moldy, but they can't afford to build or buy a new home? How does that all work out? So those are some of the questions that we began to look into and discover. And that's kind of how this whole journey started.

You know, there's always such a connection. So many in the industry or in advocacy work, they have that personal story where it wasn't on their radar at all, that the errors in our home can be making us sick, that this mold and water damage is often hidden. It's not like in the movies where you see the giant wall of mold and you think, oh, my God. Or if you go to Google and for, you know, images, you know that scary photos, right? You're like, it's exactly so much more subtle, which is in a way, so, so much scarier, because you don't know it's there and you're not looking for it. And it's something that I think is so common about your story. And first, let me say I'm so sorry this happened to you, because it really can be. I know you summarized what was probably a very long, drawn out, stressful, emotional and scary experience into a few sentences. And I know there's so much more to that. But when you're an adult and you're older and you're a parent and you start having symptoms, the tendency is, oh, you're just getting older, you have kids, you're stressed, and we dismiss it. But when you see your children who are young, and healthy and at the prime of their physical fitness, and they start getting symptoms, then it's a little more obvious. It's almost harder, I think, sometimes in the sense when you're older, because we tend to blame it on other things. So just to kind of. To wrap this up, how is your son doing now and your wife and stuff?

I would say. Well, first of all, once we figured out what was happening with our son, things started to change drastically as his diet changed and he started on one of the protocols to deal with sirs. And he's a young guy, so that was not a. And he was. I mean, as a college soccer player, he's used to being able to run seven, eight miles a game. And. And so it took a. Took a while to get back to that, and he had quite a bit of struggle through that process. And it's hard in college to eat the way you need to eat. Pretty much no processed foods, no sugars, you know, all those things that you basically live off of in college. But he did it, and he's feeling much better now than he was for sure then. And also. And I would say the same for my wife, so many things changed, but part of it is this home that I'm sitting in now is a smaller home that I built on our lot that's still on the same lot as the 1931 house that we can no longer live in currently. And this house I built all with the idea of mold prevention in the future. So I changed the way the foundation was built and things of that nature. And we also have different air systems in this house. So the air in the house is very clean. And it's. It's a great space. And it's. For those of us who can do that, it's wonderful. But a lot of people, I understand, cannot. So that's hard.

Yeah, it's about, you know, making the healthiest environment possible that you can. And this is a great segue. So let's start talking about what are some things that builders, architects, people who are building homes in general, can do to that right now are setting them up for issues down the road with moisture and mold and porn to air quality that we're not even thinking about?

Well, I think some of the. Some of the systems that within building science that most architects and certainly builders are not aware of at this point point, because they just don't have. They're not part of code. And so therefore, that they don't have to do them. They don't do them, and they don't learn about them unless they have somebody say hey, this is an issue and we need to deal with this. I would say oftentimes roof systems are just not installed properly. But because they're up on the roof and you can't see it, it's hard to know. And then all of a sudden, maybe one week up to three years, leaks start to form in a house and you don't even know it because it's dripping. And sometimes where the leak happens, actually the water damage happens 20, 30ft away because of the way water moves in a roof structure, in an attic and therefore you don't know like where is this leak? I think there's some obvious things. So when, even if homeowners don't understand roofing systems in buildings, if they can get up on their roof in a safe manner and they look at it and something seems wrong, it probably is because a lot of us have seen roofs at this point in our lives and there's, there's definitely places that are common error areas I would say. So specifically when you have two roof lines together that are run parallel to each other, those are often put in poorly. All the flashing and, and water diverting systems and things like that. And that's where a lot of leaks occur in a roof system. So there's things like that that I think architects could even help with. They can make that area a little bit bigger and offse roofs a little bit more to make it easier to access for sighting people and things like that. I think there's definitely probably the number one thing is the elevation of homes. So for a long time people had houses that were down very, very low and the earth always builds up. So even when you put a brand new house in, over time the ground just goes up and up and up and the loam kind of builds in the house, around the house and then all of a sudden the drainage starts negative instead of positive away from the house. So today if you're going to build a new home, definitely you should try to build it taller. Even if you have a height restriction on your home, make sure that you maybe you have to go with 8 foot ceilings instead of 9 foot ceilings. But then you can make your home higher and higher.

I like that too because you know, we built a home, this is before I was even super aware and even watching. You know, we've been here six years, the ground settle and we've had to adjust the grading multiple times so that you know it was sloping away from the house. Luckily our house is built up high and it kind of slopes down. We're very lucky. Our. Some of our neighbors are low and, and I'm, I'm grateful that that's not our situation. But something else you said too, about roofs that I think is so important. I am batting that a fair amount of our listeners have never gone into their attic. And I know it's not fun and it's sometimes hard to access, but that is another way you can, you know, take a flashlight, pull down the ladder, get a ladder and peek up there a couple times a year and see what's going on. Are you seeing water? Are you seeing mold? Because those out of sight, out of mind areas tend to be to your point, you know, most people aren't going on the roof regularly.

Right.

The big entry points that we just don't think about until the problem is a big problem.

Yeah.

So what are some other things that we're doing now that are just really poor practices? Is there anything else? What are some of the things that come to mind?

Well, I would say like one of the not, I wouldn't say brand new, but certainly very unknown areas are air gapping. When you build a new building, trying to get your architect or your builder to put in air gaps behind your siding, behind your stucco, behind your brick, whatever facade you're going to put on your house when you have an air gap behind it, that keeps air flowing behind whatever is on the outside of your house. And then you have your water barriers behind the air gap against the wood of the house. So those type of things keep dew point pressures. And dew point is a big issue when it comes to mold. So you have a very cold day and all of a sudden the sun comes up and it heats the south east side of the house and it warms it up. But there's all sorts of humidity and moisture in the air. And that humidity and moisture then can cause condensation that kind of moves through barriers and around different things. And you want to make sure if air is flowing all the time behind those facades, it will just basically dry that air out and you won't have issues. Now, I live in Colorado, where these are can be still issues, but they're not nearly as large. Issue is where I grew up in upstate New York and where you live, this is just how this goes. East coast homes have a harder time ventilating, having good fresh air moving around them and in them.

Yeah, and that's a good point because I mean, there's so many building options and depending on where you live in the country, you know, parts of, like the Southwest, stucco is very popular. And then you have brick and stone, and those materials can absorb moisture to a certain degree. And when that moisture gets trapped behind there, that is a problem. And again, people think that, you know, oh, it's an exterior issue. But that does have implications for the interior of your home. Even, even simple things that I've seen people do is they install something like a sprinkler system. And the sprinkler system is, is too close to the house, and they're watering the side of the house. And then inward vapor drive causes with the sun, that moisture to go from where it's wet to dry. And then you start getting a buildup. And then God forbid you put wallpaper on that wall. On exterior people, I know it's coming back in fashion, and there are some very cute designs, but that is essentially a vapor barrier. So I cannot tell you how many times I've seen people there. They can't figure out where it's coming from. They know there's a source somewhere, and they remove the wallpaper and it is covered with mold, just not even because it was being watered by a sprinkler, just through those forces that Brian was talking about. So being cognizant about that, I love that. That is a great tip before we shift in, because I love that you, you are building differently. But is there, before we get to the good things that you're doing, are there any other flags that, you know, current building practices that you're like, we gotta, we gotta change this?

Yes, absolutely. And most of it definitely deals with the air quality, which is what you guys are existing for, is the air quality in homes. And, and this, these next statements are definitely not meant to be anything but completely neutral. So most codes these days are driven by the, the reduction of fossil fuel use, which is great, and I'm all for it, and I'm all for new technology. However, what they're doing is they're saying, first of all, what we need to do is make the house tighter and tighter and tighter so that there's absolutely zero airflow. If we could, they would say, we want zero airflow in and out of that house. And what they mean is, in the wall systems and those type of things, they want as little as possible that they can have. But so at the end now today in the new code, we even have blower door tests where they come in on brand new houses and they hook up a system and they basically, what they call negative air the house. So they put A blower door in that's totally sealed. You steal up all the windows, doors, everything, and then you turn that fan on. And they want to see how much air is coming in around the house, and they want to reduce that, if they can, all the way to zero. And this is a really complicated. It's a really complicated problem because if you make your house super tight, that's fantastic, as long as you have some type of system that is bringing in fresh air and getting rid of old air inside your house. But so many people don't ever put those in. So they're just what I call. They're creating petri dishes, which we now live in. I mean, even things like the common cold don't have a chance to get out. So the whole family just gets more and more sick. My old house, which is not good, probably has 20 air exchanges per hour. And it's not a good thing necessarily either, but I get a lot of fresh air, so that's great. But new homes, they're saying you have to be less than three air exchanges per hour. So that's, that's definitely an issue.

So.

And something I'd like to see change.

Yeah, so we have this trade off where we're, we're trying to be energy efficient, and now we are essentially creating even poor indoor air quality. I know the EP estimates that concentrations of some indoor pollutants inside your home are four to five times more polluted, and in some cases, up to a hundred times more polluted than the air outdoors. That is crazy to think about. And so maybe you can talk to us as we pivot in a moment to what that looks like, because the air in your home, it may look clean, it may smell clean, but it's going to, you know, contain some of these pollutants that can be, you know, making you sick and keeping you from, you know, living, you know, your best, healthiest life. So let's, let's pivot for a moment then. What are some of the things that you are doing differently? Because it can be really hard to find a builder who is building with this perspective and insight. You know, it, I imagine, takes more time, it takes more planning. It may be more costly. So tell us what you're doing differently.

Sure, sure. And it does. And this is, this is the, this is the struggle. Right. The cost associated with all these added systems to make your house safer are really price a lot of people out of the ability to do it. And that's a, that's really unfortunate, but we also don't have policies that help drive those costs down. And that's definitely an issue that we have. So I would say right now the biggest thing I have been pushing, especially since all of, since my wife and son had these issues with csrs, is an ERV system. And there's good ERV systems and ERV stands for energy recovery ventilation systems, which basically take fresh air into a home. So this home that I'm sitting in, every hour, I get 40% brand new air from the outside into the house. And so I have almost 12 air exchanges, 11 air exchanges most likely each day completely within the house. And that's with all the doors and windows closed. So in the winter, in the summer when you have heat running and AC running, it really helps to, to lessen the amount of, of bad air in the house. And it also you have those returns in your bedroom so you don't have to sleep with your own CO2, which is great because it helps you get better sleep. There's all sorts of benefits to ERV systems. There are good systems and then there's better systems. And so there's Trane and all different companies make them. But the one I prefer is the Zender. It's originally made out of Switzerland and they are fantastic systems. They're a little bit more costly, but that's what I put in this house because of my issue. So if you're someone that has issues and you know it going in, then maybe picking a little bit more expensive ERV type of system would be great. So that to me is what keeps our air fresh in our homes when the building envelopes are getting tighter and tighter.

So before we move on another one, there, there are ERVs and there are HRVs. So talk to us about slightly, just about the difference and how where you live impacts which one might be a better choice for you.

Well, it's interesting because over time the ERVs and the HRVs, it used to be that if you were more in a humidity prone area of the country, you'd probably want an HRV system rather than an ERV systems. And ERV systems are more in the dry areas of the country. But I know in the past, or I'm pretty sure you've had Larry Schwartz on in the past and regarding air quality and testing and all those type of things, and he basically has changed and said, no, we recommend only ERV systems no matter what part of the country you're in now. And Larry's been in this business for so long and is such a trusted source. We had a great discussion about them. And he said, I just don't think that the HRVs are changing the air any better. And they're not. And the ERV systems just seem to make things work with humidity control inside the house better than HRV systems do.

And that's one of the differences, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the ERV has that added dehumidification component, correct?

That's correct. And basically, as that air comes in, there is the exchange inside the unit that crosses over and it mixes with your air. But it also, because it's a heat pump system, it changes the air temperature, temperature in the house, depending on which ERV you buy. So, for instance, if it's zero degrees outside, you don't want to bring zero degree air into your house because then you're just running your furnace more and more and more. So a good ERV system actually changes the temperature of the air coming in, whether it's super hot or super cold, and then mixes it into your. Whether it's an individually ducted system or mixed with your current H vac system.

So I know we could do a whole episode on HRVs and ERVs, but just for people listening, it is a bit of an investment. These are, you know, a few thousand dollars. What are, what are some basic ways they're installed? Because you just said it, you said it can. You can either run its own duck line system or you can tap into your existing ductwork. Do you have any thoughts on which one of those is better or considerations for doing one over the other?

I like the individually ducted systems, but of course that means there's more ducts, which means there's more expenses. If you. And really, at this point, I'm so about just people having better air. And it's not like if you have mold in your house, you're just going to get better. If you have better air, that's not. You have to find the source, eliminate the source, and then you have to test and test and test until you're sure all the sources have been dealt with. Then you build everything back. That's the only way. You can't just scrub the air and get better from CSRs, but you can certainly help yourself. And some people can't afford the very expensive. I needed to tear my house apart, find all these areas, do all that remodeling, all that testing and then putting, you know, putting it all back together is just cost prohibitive. And for a lot of people that have sirs, they're struggling with going to work each day they're struggling with how to meet their bills and pay for the doctor's visits and the testing and all they have to do on their own. So I really believe that this type of system will. Is a, is the stopgap measure. It's a help at least to make sure you're breathing better air. If you can't afford a large remodel of your home and if you can't move, I mean, the best thing to do is to move into a new structure or a new home that has been built with this in mind. But I know those are complicated issues and I really have in my heart that so many people can't afford to just do whatever the experts say. And that's, that's an issue that we, I don't know how to address except to say, let's be reasonable about it and see if we can find good solutions.

Yeah, and not every solution, to your point, is going to work for everyone. Right. We're, we're making the best possible choice. And I want to reiterate something you said that is so, so crucial because we talk about this at Change Layer Foundation. You have to start with source removal. That is number one. So dealing with the water damage to the mold is radon, low level carbon monoxide, whatever it is that is causing problems, VOCs. And then you can start talking about, or in conjunction with increasing your ventilation through ERVs, things like that. Even something as simple as if your climate allows opening windows. People don't open their windows very often in certain parts of the world. And then of course, you know, you can always add in that third piece, which is improved filtration. So on your H Vac system, highest rated MERV filter, some people, you know, opt for certain air purifiers or cleaners too. We actually have an episode with Carl Grimes on that if you're interested. But before we move on, because I know you have some other things that you're doing differently. I know in our house we have a newer H VAC system and I have something called a fresh air intake and I can control that. How is that for people who have that on their system different than an erv? And what does that mean?

It's basically with combustible. It's kind of like the old combustible air. But the fresh air intake goes directly into the unit, which is really nice. And because of the high efficiency of H VAC systems, you now pull air in directly from outside to feed that system. And then. But it's, it's a little bit different and some of them are controllable, some are not. Cost more to make it controllable than the ones that are not. But I would say anything you can do to bring that air in. However, that air only works when your H Vac system is running. And it doesn't work if your fan is just circulating the air. It's not changing any of the air or adding air into your home, where an ERV system is working behind the scenes all the time. And part of the reason I like the individually ducted systems better is that they can. You can almost not hear an ERV system running in a house that just has individual ducts. Where in my house it was. This house is small and it had to be for what we were trying to do. So I couldn't put in individual duct systems in it. And with that, I basically had to say, okay, the fan of the H Vac system runs 24, 7, 365. That's what happens in this house. But that, that constant change of air is happening and occurring. So those are the kind of the differ of those different systems. And I would say anything you can do. So the fresh air intake is definitely an improvement over, hey, we don't do anything for that. We just make sure that the gas use and we don't cause carbon monoxide issues. And we want to make sure we have fresh air feeding the gas system and then expelling that air, which is the old combustible air ideology. So.

And I'm so glad you mentioned noise because that is a consideration people don't think about. As I was doing research for my own home, you know, I, we. I don't personally like any kind of system in my attic. I, I don't know why we put H Vac systems in our attic. They're harder to access, they're overlooked, they can leak. And when we were coming up, one of the companies I interviewed wanted to put it in the attic. I was like, I don't want anything in my attic. I was like, what are the other options? And we put it in a closet or where you're like, there's considerations there, so make sure. And you're going to want to talk with multiple companies because as with everything, installation matters. Having it properly installed, if anything is improperly installed or done poorly, it could create issues, it could create moisture issues. Just like if you had an H Vac system that was installed properly, maybe it was oversized or undersized or whatever. Everything comes down to is it done well in the way that it's supposed to be done. So what are some other things you're doing, Brian? I love that that fresh air is so important.

Yeah, well, I would say, you know, and we kind of. I didn't add this on earlier, but one of the huge areas of struggle is basically our crawl spaces. I mean honestly, back to what's the best building practice? And we've kind of pulled away from this and a lot of people don't like this. But it is the best if you can do it this way. You know, you have a slab on grade with an incredible like 20 miles water barrier underneath that concrete and then 2 inches of foam over the top of that. And then you pour your concrete on top of it. That keeps your floors warmer, keeps all the moisture from coming through. Because most people aren't don't realize that concrete is basically a massive sponge and it just soaks up water and it holds it until it has a way to get rid of it. So if you keep moisture from coming up from the ground and into your concrete slab, and then you also make sure that you never ever when, if somebody puts drywall on your house that they leave a 3 inch gap between the concrete surface and, and the bottom of the drywall so that there's no way moisture can transfer from the concrete into the drywall. But if you want specifically, a lot of people are putting in structural floors and I do them all the time in my building because I'm not in charge of the architects. They design what they design and then I go through and build it. And that's based on what the homeowners want. So if there is a crawl space, you have to make sure that that crawl space is sealed. Normally we put our radon systems now in mats underneath the plastic that you seal it with. And then that's vented out and then you seal up the walls. So there's no way moisture can get into that crawl space. And then some people don't like this because it hurts their hers ratings and I get it. But you put. It's required. This is required by code is. And anybody that doesn't have this should definitely add it. You put a vent in one side of your crawl space area that sucks air from the living space down in through the crawl space and then exits out into the open. And that's very important. So any moisture that does get into the crawl space doesn't stay because crawl spaces are mold havens. They really are. And so. And most people just like the attic, they just don't ever go down there. It smells musty and if it smells musty, that should be your first key to, oh, something's not right. If you smell something, it's there. You may not be able to see it, you may not be able to find it or access it, know how to clean it. But if you smell it in your home, it exists. And so trust your nose and trust your gut feeling of something's not quite right. Right. Because that's usually the case. And some people say, well, I don't see anything, so I, I'm sure it's fine. And honestly, nobody wants to deal with moles. So if I can't see it, then, ah, we'll just kick that can down the road and we'll deal with it later. And that's a dangerous proposition.

Yeah. And then we cover up the odor, which is our warning signal. Right. With air fresheners and other things. And, and I think too, a little science lesson because I'm all about the education here. When what you're smelling is likely the MVOCs, which is produced when a mole colony is actively feeding. Now, the colony goes in and out of feeding cycles for various reasons like, you know, available moisture and things like that. But if you're smelling it, that even the EPA says that is a sign of active mold growth. You have active water, active mold somewhere, definitely look into it. Last thing about crawl spaces. What do you add so specific dehumidification to a crawl space? Or is that part of.

If you seal a crawl space correctly and then you vent it from the house down through and back outside, you don't need dehumidification. Normally, it, it can depend if you live in an area where you like the windows open and you live specifically, let's say, let's just use Florida as an example, because in the winter at least, or in the spring, a lot of people want to open their windows. Well, the moisture content on the outside is anywhere from, let's face, 70 to 99%. And so you have that humidity in your home. And for those people, and I'm sure you've said this a million times in different videos or in different interviews, but if you have 60% or higher humidity levels and warmth, then mold can grow in 24 to 48 hours. Actually, it will, it will grow in 24 to 48 hours. So even though it's a great idea to have that fresh air coming in the house, which I've been talking about, you also have all this risen humidity and potential temperature. So we're trying to eliminate some of those things, keep your humidity level below 60%. So you can get a very. I mean, the availability of testing equipment on Amazon is so inexpensive now that you can get a humidity tester very, very quickly that you just put down in your crawl space or take down with you. And it will read that humidity very quickly. If even with a venting system it's not dropped below 60%, then definitely keep it there with a dehumidifier.

Yeah. And just to add to, you know, you can measure the relative humidity. They're called hygrometers. If you go to, like, Amazon or wherever. I'm not supposed to name specific websites, but you can go online. Oh, no, you can. I can't. We. We tend to do that as an organization. But you can go on, you know, online and you can put in a hygrometer and you can get them for like, 10 or 11 bucks. This is for your living space. I have them on multiple floors. I've given them as Christmas gifts. And they're fairly accurate. You know, there's a plus or minus, you know, 5 or 7%. But it's important to monitor that humidity on all levels. Don't just that relative humidity, I should say. And don't just rely on the composite score, maybe on your H vac system, because the humidity does vary.

Yes.

From level to level. Now, I know we could do a whole hour on foundations. I think the message here is that. That the foundation has to be done right, whether it's a basement, crawl, space, slab. Pay special attention to how that is being built and do your research. Is there. I want to talk about building codes, but before we move on, did we kind of COVID Is there anything else you want to add about some of the things that you're doing differently?

I think I would say drainage systems, because we're talking a little bit about foundations. Those are really important. People, of course, are kind of just like, whatever. I just ignore that. It's under the ground. It's fine. But foundation, like, if you want waterproofing on your foundation that is black, it's oftentimes unseemly because it has. It comes all the way up to the top of the foundation, and then you see this black stripe around the bottom of your house. But waterproofing, even though water damping is actually gray, it's a great product, and it's very good, but it's not quite as good as waterproofing. And waterproofing is generally a $1 more per square foot of space that you spray it. So your whole foundation, nine feet tall and around the perimeter of your house. It ends up adding some cost to your house. But the way the drainage system is installed is very important as well, because if you have a basement, a crawl space, or anything like that, you want that drain to be properly has the right height on one area, and it goes around the house and then down into a sump pump that is completely sealed. Sump pump, pipes in, pipes out, and then it also takes that water out of the house. So those things are all very crucial. And a lot of people, because they're boring and they don't care and they're not pretty and they're not windows, things like that, they don't care about it, but they're really crucial to future problems in your home and making sure your sump pump is working all the time. And so, so when you have big storms and you really need it, that that basically expels that water from getting around your foundation and potentially through your foundation and into your wall structure. The only other thing I would say, which I find a lot of issues with, is how window installers are installing windows. They don't either use flashing. And the biggest struggle I see is I have these old windows on my existing home that was built in 1965, and now I want replacement windows, and I want to make that as cheap as possible. So I want you guys to figure out a way to minimize siding damage and things of that nature on the outside of my house. But if you do that, then your window is often not wrapped properly. So a driving rainstorm that comes in from whatever direction it comes is hitting that siding. It's getting going down and hitting the edges of the window. If they're not caulked properly and the wrapping happens where you can't see it, of course, it's behind the siding. And then it goes into the wall and down into the. Into your drywall, into your insulation, into your everything. So there's a lot of issues with making sure windows are installed properly. And there is all sorts of YouTube videos with very knowledgeable guys, and their systems maybe have little nuances, but they're all almost identical. And if you are a homeowner and you're going to have your windows done, watch some YouTube videos and then make sure your installers are doing it exactly the way you see these experts teaching us how to do it.

And this is. No, it's so important because people. I've seen windows be installed incorrectly, flashing, done incorrectly. I've seen windows be installed upside down so much more often than you would think. I Think you just assume you're the professional and they're going to do it. Right? Assume nothing.

Assume nothing. I say assume nothing about anyone that works on your home. Yes.

Yeah. And just. And, and we can move on. But you, you had said something that I think is so important. Spending the dollar per square foot. Some of this prevention stuff, I know it's not pretty. I know it's not hardwood floors or granite countertops. It will save. If you're in a position to build and you're in a position to do that, that prevention stuff up front will save so much money in the long run to waterproof a foundation after the fact. We won't get into it. Far more difficult, far more costly, can be less effective. Like if you are in the position where you're building, I would rather not have furniture or anything on the walls and know that I'm protecting that investment in my health. Again, not everyone's in the position to do that. So let's talk for a minute about building codes. And it's kind of a two parter. You know, how do building codes need to be changed to kind of address this, these issues you've outlined for us. And some of these new codes are actually making the situation more dire. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah, I, we kind of referred to the way that's making a more dire before in terms of making the house tighter, which is if you are, if you're trying to go in that direction, that's not a bad thing. Don't hear me wrong or incorrectly that I am not on board with that. I do think a tight house is the best possible thing as long as you have an air system that's bringing in fresh air and expelling old air on a reg like any RV system in your home or an HRV system, whatever one you choose to use. If you don't have that though, I don't know exactly what to do because they're. I'm building two homes right now that are all in the 2021 prescriptive code. And so some people are going for hers ratings which is basically lower and lower and lower amounts of air quality or air coming into your house. Air exchanges. But even the prescriptive code is three air changes per hour, which is really interesting for that's for the whole house, which means air coming in through little crevices and cracks. And you would think that sounds like a lot, but it's actually very, very, very little air. And the only way you do it is if you have something sucking the air out. Like I mentioned, the blower door test. So we have codes that are working against us. And like for instance, if you're building a new home or you're having brand new siding put on your home, your existing home, you want that air gap. It's called. Basically it's called a rain shield. That's. There's different, different companies have different terminology about that. But a rain shield is a porous, usually a mesh of some sort that you staple to the wall on top of your water barrier. So your Tyvek or whatever type of system that you have, and then you put your siding on top of that. The other way to do it is to put vertical, vertical pieces of wood along your, your wall and then put your. So you don't have anything. But the reason I don't like that system is you have to have. At the bottom, it has to have a way for water and stuff to get out, which also provides a way for critters to get in. And big huge net bee nests and all sorts of ants and all, you know, and if you're in the wrong part of the country, you have termites. So with that rain screen, they are very tough material that does not allow. It lets air go through, doesn't allow critters to get in. And you basically keep that air flowing without other issues.

Coming up now is like, maybe they're not building, but it's like, okay, it's time to replace my siding. Right. Maybe they have traditional vinyl signing. Is that something they can add on?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Yeah, it, absolutely. Because most houses, if you have an old house that doesn't have great siding anymore, it was not rained protected. Your, your vapor barrier is not very good anyway. So you're going to tear that all off and go right back down to your original system, whether it was OSB or foam or. I mean, there's all sorts of crazy things that have been done over the years and decades because you're talking about usually houses that are at least the 90s and prior to that, if they are changing their siding, usually most people don't just do it. But if, if it needs it, then you definitely want to do new water vapor barriers, look for mold, look for rotting OSB or anything on your house and replace that. But that's again additional expenses and oftentimes ciders will just take stuff off. And before you're even back home, they're putting on new stuff. And it's, it just takes a more involved owner to make sure that they're not getting or Workmanship done that they see. Okay. I want to inspect the OSB myself. I want to make sure that there's no mold growth on the outside, at least that I can see before you put vapor barrier on. And then I want to make sure my all my seams are taped with that company's particular tape so it sticks well. And then I want to make sure my windows are wrapped correctly. Because even if you don't change your windows and you change your siding only, you need to wrap the windows the exact same way on the outside, at least not underneath, inside the windows, like they were replaced. You just want to go through all those processes and understand that. And I get it. It's hard, a little bit hard to find that stuff. But honestly, YouTube will go over anything. What's proper siding, what's proper vapor barrier installation, what's proper window installation, all those things that will help you. And gutters, of course, we didn't talk about gutters before, but moving water away from your house is the number one thing you can do to prevent mold growth. Because, yes, you can have an appliance that breaks in your house, you can have a pipe that has an issue in the wall, but you normally see those things and you can move to quickly fix them and then move on. You can't prevent everything. You just can't. Life happens. But you can do everything you can, especially on the envelope of your house and the grading of your house and the gutters to get water away.

Yeah, that. And that's a good reminder. Right? I think people think I'm just going to move to this house and I'm never going to have to think about it again. Prevention is going to go a long way. It's not going to cover everything, even for as much as you and I both know. I know we've had problems or things pop up. It's about preventing it. It's about catching problems quickly when they do arise and dealing with them the correct way. So there's always different ways we can be doing that. And the lesson you said, I think is so important for everyone is that you have to be involved with when anyone is doing anything to your home. Any updates, follow through, take pictures, whatever, do some research. I know it's exhausting. I know you have a day job and you hire these professionals so you don't have to think about it. But no one is going to care about your health or your home as much as you. So it's like a motto of mine that I probably say at nauseam and everyone's tired of hearing it. Last little thought on the building codes. I think think people assume building codes are kind of minimum requirements. They are what is, like, acceptable. They are not designed for what is healthy or optimal. And so I think that sometimes people assume, well, that's the code, that's what's safest, and that's what's healthiest. And in my opinion, and I don't know if you agree that's not how building codes are always written.

No, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, a lot of building codes are based on one issue or another, right? They're based on, like, fire prevention. And a lot of those brand new building codes are fantastic. And we're not having fire spread throughout a house. So those are great building codes. Some building codes are just done improperly. Like for years, the roofing systems came down and they went under the. The little flashing Z flashing you put on the edge of the roof. And I would always argue with this. The. I basically would just change it. And when the inspectors came and said, hey, this is in the code, I said, okay, I'll change it for you, and then I'll change it back when you're gone, because I'm not going to do it wrong. Because otherwise the water goes under and it wraps around and it just rots the wood, and then that moves and it goes other places you don't want it to go. So those are things that I don't know why that code was written. I don't even know those people that write the codes. But in the end, these issues are fairly common and they always have a reason in their minds why it's written that way. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best system to employ. And I really like what you said, Kendra, about it being the minimal. It's. Those are the minimal ideas that you have to meet for your home. But if you can add other things that some people are aware of, and a lot of architects don't even know these things. Some architects are always studying, always learning, always wanting to change their system. One of my key architects is constantly asking me, okay, I know you're. You're really into this now, into this building science. What do you want to see in our designs? What can we add to our designs that make these homes healthier? And we'll put that across all of our structures. Commercial, residential ones you're building, ones you're not building. We'll try to put them in. So that's really helpful because they want to learn and grow. But that's the type of firm they are. Other firms don't. And contractors is. I. I mean, I. It's hard to throw some of my fellow contractors and colleagues under the bus, but they are not often wanting to learn new systems and try to help their subcontractors learn new systems, because that's really what it's about, is getting your siding guys and your window guys and your plumbing people and your. All those things. Things to put them in correctly at the first. The first go around. But I will say we had just recently a project even, and this is very scary to hear this as a homeowner, but a roofing company hired by the homeowner who made several very large mistakes in putting in the roof system. So I actually asked my roofing company to come and inspect their job, and they said. Said all these things were done wrong and all these things need to be fixed. And then we forced them to do that. And. But I'm not sure most inspectors want to climb ladders and get up on a steep pitch roof to make sure it was done correctly. So it's. These are tough things. But as a builder, I make sure if I don't know the roof for doing it, that I have somebody else that is just knows everything about it to make sure it's done correctly. Because even if the codes are great codes, roads, and you have installers that are not great at what they do, you can have these problems.

Yeah. And just a little personal thing. You want an inspector who will go on your roof if you can. I know the temptation these days is to use the drone. And you can't. You can't see some of the things that you need to see. So that your point is a perfect segue into it, because I know we're running low on time. What advice do you have for someone who is maybe looking to build a new home or maybe even extensively remodel?

I would say the biggest thing is you start with the architectural firm. I mean, most of the time you get all these proposals from any architectural firms you're talking to. And then you make your decision based upon. Usually based upon the amount of money that they're charging you, which I totally understand. Some definitely are much more expensive than others. However, really understanding are they up to, like, what do you guys know about mold growth? What do you know about building envelope systems that will prevent mold growth? Do you guys use air gapping in your. All of your exterior siding? How do you handle your roofing systems? Which are the best roofing systems? You know, those type of Questions are just crucial to make sure your house ends up safe because then you need to interview your contractor the same way. What do you know about these things? And a lot of contractors and architects are going to say, oh yeah, no, we do all that. We are really good at that. We know exactly what we're doing. Okay, well tell me something. What do you know and how do you build it? Actually, ask them before you even bring up the issue. How do you build your walls? How do you make sure that there's, there's good ventilation and all that type of thing. And you know, one of the big things that people are still doing, which I don't understand, is they're putting now vapor barriers on the inside of the walls, which I am not a huge fan of. Some people still are. But I really want that wall to breathe. And drywall will allow things to breathe. And if you can use new products, it's cost a little bit more. But if you can use paperless drywall, if you can use real plywood instead of osb and it's not that anyone's doing anything wrong. Both of those products, just by the nature of wood and life and dirt and wherever they sit when they build them, they have mold spores inside the materials themselves. In the paper, not the, not the limestone of the drywall, but in the paper on both sides, there is actual mold spores just waiting for humidity and, and warmth and then they just explode. And you don't even see it half the time because it's in the wall.

So I have a research paper on that. We'll drop the link if I can find it. Talking about spores being. And basically all samples of drywall. Yes, this is incredibly helpful though. It is about doing the research and taking the time and hiring the right people up front. Not, not, you know, that's any lesson in life. Right. But yes, this has been so much. And Brian, I'm just gonna put you on the spot. Will you, will you definitely come back and do another interview? Because I think there are so many things we could tackle here in terms of building practices. I would love to see you back. And I'm sure our viewers questions which they're welcome to email me@kendra changethe air foundation.org but if people wanted to get into contact with you, how would they do that?

It's. You can email me at Brian B R I A ninkerhomes.com and you can also. Yeah, that's the best way. Or you can go to tinkerhomes.com and find my information there. As well.

This has been amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for what you're doing to build healthier homes for people. It is, it is sorely needed. There are not enough builders out there who are building with this element in mind, and we hope to see that change going forward. And I know you're doing a great deal of work to, to do that and change your industry as well.

I am. And you know, research is the key. Just understanding what's happening and why it's happening. And Kendra, I want to thank you for what you're doing. I want to thank you for what change the ERA foundation is doing. Because to me, it's these, these movements are the only thing we'll be ever be able to do to change code that will make healthier homes for people to live in. It's just fantastic and I'm really grateful and thank you for having me on. And I'd be glad to come back and even tackle some of the more intricate ideas. I mean, we're doing surface level stuff quite a bit, but if there's specific things that you would ever want to go over, I'd be happy to do that as well.

Let's absolutely plan for that. And for everyone listening, thank you so much for joining, joining us. Excuse me, but do me a favor. If you found this helpful, like follow and share us. We're on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn, YouTube. We're now on all major podcast platforms. So please check us out, help us raise awareness, help us spread the word. And if you want to be sure that you never miss a great interview like this, if you head on over to our website, changetheyearfoundation.org, sign up for our newsletter because it really is the best way to get great information like this directly to your inbox. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much.