Episode #42: DNRS with Annie Hopper

Welcome to Better Health Guy Blogcasts Empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy. The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or or his information to facilitate self treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health related decisions with your own personal medical authority.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode number 42 of the Better Health Guy Blogcast series. Today's guest is Annie Hopper and the topic of the show is dnrs. Annie Hopper is a journalist and health, wellness and environmental toxin expert whose life was turned upside down by a chronic debilitating condition. She knows the challenges and hardships involved with limbic system dysfunction and she personally suffered from severe multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia and electric hypersensitivity syndrome. She went on to creatively rewire the neural circuits in her brain that had been altered due to toxic trauma and the symptoms of illness eventually dissipated. In 2008, Annie Hopper founded the Dynamic Neural Retraining System, a drug free neuroplasticity based approach to rew chronic illness disease patterns in the brain. The program can be an effective treatment for chemical sensitivities, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia and many other chronic illnesses. Annie has lectured throughout North America and abroad, educating both patients and doctors alike about the connection between environmental toxins, brain trauma and physical health. She has spoken at events hosted by the Canadian Brain Injury association, the American Academy of Environmental Medicine, the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy association and the Institute for Functional Medicine. She is the author of Wired for Healing. Remapping the Brain to Recover from Chronic and Mysterious Illnesses. She is on a mission to take the mystery out of mysterious illnesses. And now my interview with Annie Hopper. So I've been excited about DNRs for some time now, not only based on information from people that I've also worked with and done some health coaching, but really amazing results from other people in the medical field that have felt that your work has been very helpful for their patients. So I'm very excited to have Annie Hopper here today to talk with us about DNRs. Thank you for being here.

Oh, you're welcome, Scott. My pleasure.

Thanks. So tell us a little about your own personal journey, your health journey, what triggered your health challenges, some of your symptoms and then what brought you to the insight to work on rewiring your brain?

Sure. Well, I can start to say that the illnesses that I was suffering from was Severe multiple chemical sensitivities, fibromyalgia, and electric hypersensitivity syndrome. And it started back in 2004. I'd moved into a relatively, well, a new office to me for my counseling practice at that time. And unfortunately, the building was a sick building, so I suspect there was mold in the building also. My office was located right next door to the janitor supply room, where they held all the cleaning chemicals for the building. So I was being exposed to really harsh chemicals throughout the day, and I didn't really know that. And when I moved in, I bought all new furniture, and I made the place pretty and painted it two coats of my favorite color, green, and thought that I was creating a healing oasis. And little did I know that that office actually didn't have proper ventilation as well. And it actually used to be part of the janitor supply room, but they were creating more space and made it into this office. So that was part of what I would call the perfect storm. Like, usually there are a number of traumas that can push someone over the edge of. And the other one was about a year prior to that, I was in a car accident where I had a neck injury. And that neck injury kind of left me with a shake in my neck that mimicked Parkinson's a little bit. And although it was fairly. It was undiagnosed at the time, I went for CAT scans and stuff, and nothing really came up. But that was also part of the perfect storm for developing limbic system impairment for me.

How did you then get to the point that you decided to rewire your brain?

Well, yeah, that's a really good question. So I think that, you know, I exhausted really all of the options that I was given, which was, you know, looking at the allopathic health care field and seeing neurologists and doctors and specialists, and, you name it, I went to see it. And then also the alternative healthcare field, looking at, you know, naturopaths and any old path that you can imagine, you know, I went there, I did it, I worked it, and yet I was still really sick. And, you know, one of the common themes was in environmental medicine was that this was a toxic overload syndrome. So I totally went down that route of detoxification, had all my amalgams removed, did chelation for heavy metals, did a series of detoxification treatments, supplements up the yin yang. I did everything that everyone was telling me to do, and yet I was still sick. So I thought, initially, I actually thought that I had a brain injury because it affected my ability to Communicate and to speak and to talk. So when I was exposed to certain stimuli, I would actually have, well, a. I had ongoing brain fog. But it got a lot worse when I was exposed to the point where I wouldn't actually be able to speak at all. So formulating a sentence is really difficult. Stringing words together that were very coherent was really difficult to do. And you can, as a counselor and a newspaper columnist and someone that, you know, depends on communication for their living, it was extremely alarming. Now I think actually the really big tipping point for me was when I was. I was actually walking through chapters, a regular bookstore, and I walked by scented candle display. And I was already sensitive at that time and still coping with my life. But when somehow when I walked by that scented candle display, something happened in my brain, and I'm not really sure what. It just felt like. It felt like knives piercing my brain. And all of a sudden, everything hurts. So sound hurt. The smell was putrid, light hurt. All of anything sensory was really painful. And when I went home that evening, I kind of prayed for. Prayed for sleep, basically. And James, my husband, had asked me if I wanted to go to the hospital, but I've been so many times before that I knew that they couldn't help me. So I just went home and I prayed for sleep. And I don't. I don't know what happened, but some mechanism in my brain, I think the flight or flight centers actually specifically went haywire that night. And that's my medical term for it, haywire. And the next morning I woke up and I could detect everything, like even the clothes that I was wearing. The smallest amount of detergent residue that was in my clothes was now. Now felt like it was completely attacking. It was toxic. It was almost like. It's really hard to describe. You might know what I'm talking about, but it's kind of like you just feel like you're being poisoned. You literally feel like you're being poisoned by everything. So that's when I really started to look at. Oh, my goodness, I think I have a brain injury. This is a brain injury. Yes. You know, maybe that the chemicals and the, you know, toxic overload have something to do with the development of that injury. But now I was left with this brain injury. So that's really how I decided that I had a brain injury. Because I. It was a really a process of elimination and a deductive reasoning process. If it's not this, then what else could it be? And then exploring neuroplasticity and a brain injury as the probable culprit and one of the ways that I came by that was the brain reading the Brain that changes itself by Dr. Norman Doidge. And he was really looking at the latest neuroplasticity research and looking at the neuroplasticians of the time that were working on all of these really great treatments to help people that had had some kind of brain damage, from people that had strokes to looking at how. So looking at the. Of Dr. Edward Taub and constraint induced therapy for people that had strokes. So looking at ways to remap the brain or to strengthen alternative circuitry when one part of the brain has been damaged. Some of the other people that he referenced in that book was Dr. Pascaglioni, who really looked at the power of thought and how thinking can change the structure of our brain. Also Dr. What's his name, RS Ramachandran, who worked with imagination, How Imagination Can Change the Brain. So I was really looking at all of those experts who were mentioned in the Brain that Changes Itself and my understanding of, you know, what was happening in my own brain, looking at the patterns that I developed, like what were my thinking patterns, what were my emotional patterns, what were my physical patterns that were presenting. And the big question was, what if these symptoms are the result of a flight or flight mechanism in my limbic system that has gone rogue? And from that perspective, it was a different. It was just a different way to examine illness. And it was exciting because I was reading about all of these people have recovered from brain trauma using neuroplasticity and I was like, wow, you know, it makes sense that the flight or flight mechanisms in the brain have been distorted or have been reorganized somehow through trauma and that through rewiring my limbic system that that might be the way out. So that's how I started to explore it.

Wow, that's quite a journey, really. So let's talk a little bit about the limbic system. What is it that a healthy limbic system is intended to do? And then what is it that goes wrong in a chronic illness? Why does it get stuck in this fight or flight kind of state? And what are some of the factors that can be impaired or can trigger the limbic system?

Sure. So let's start at the beginning with what does the limbic system do? So the limbic system includes a number of structures that are located in the midbrain and basically the limbic system. And depending on where you look, you can find more or less structures involved. But really the limbic system is responsible for perceiving Threat in our environment. That's what it's really good at. It's known as the feeling and reacting brain. So one of its primary roles is to really filter the billions of bits of sensory and emotional information and to categorize that information into two very distinct categories, threat or no threat. Now you can imagine if the limbic system is impaired. And let's talk about. So in a healthy limbic system, that's what it does. It categorizes information into those very distinct categories. And when you're under a stress alert or there's something that's threatening, it will notify all systems of the body to react accordingly. Now you can imagine if that system isn't working functionally anymore, that it may be categorizing non threatening information into that threat category. So some of the things that can actually cause that mechanism to start firing improperly or damage neural circuits in the limbic system are things like chemical exposures, mold, excessive electromagnetic fields, viruses, bacteria, psychological stress, emotional stress, or a combination of all of those things.

So is it that there was some initial alarm that was actually appropriate, but then at some point the limbic system continues to kind of raise this alarm when it no longer needs to do that, that it's kind of stuck in this cycle that we need to be able to reboot or to get out of?

Exactly. You said it perfectly. That's exactly what happens. The brain has been catapulted into this chronic stress cycle, or this cycle, this maladapted chronic stress response, this over firing of fight or flight mechanisms in the brain. It's there was some kind of trigger, so there was some kind of trauma that triggered that response. But now the brain is stuck in that response and as a result is sending corresponding alarm messages to all other systems of body.

Perfect. So tell us about DNRs. What does it stand for? What is it intended to do? And then how does a focus on resetting the limbic brain lead to a reduction in symptoms and potential recovery from many different types of chronic conditions? Sure.

So what are focus? DNRs stands for the Dynamic Neural Retraining system. And as the title suggests, it's dynamic. We're dealing with, you know, different ways, different ways that you can actually retrain the brain. Neural relating to the brain and a retraining system. So we're retraining the brain in a very dynamic way and a very active way to reset that fight or flight mechanism. So basically what we're doing is we're shutting off that chronic stress response, resetting the fight or flight mechanism so that the alarm messages stop being sent to the rest of the body.

So we're essentially kind of like rebooting the computer, so to speak.

Yeah, kind of rebooting the computer, absolutely.

Okay, and what are some conditions that may respond well to DNRs?

That's a really great question because what we're finding out is more and more conditions that we didn't even know would be affected with the program are actually now people are reporting that they're having really amazing results from the program. So typically the most common ones are multiple chemical sensitivities, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, food sensitivities, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, electric hypersensitivity syndrome, anxiety, chronic pain, and I think those are the top ones. But certainly there is a whole other list of conditions like irritable bowel syndrome and mast cell activation. Yeah, just a whole list of conditions which are listed on our website.

Those are the things that I talk to people about pretty much every day. So I think people will be really interested in hearing this. I mean, my personal experience was with Lyme disease and mold illness for over 20 years. And so many of the things that you mentioned were things that I'm familiar with. And I think a system like this is something that people, people really should explore. How far reaching would you say that a hypersensitive limbic system is in terms of all of the different systems in the body that can be impaired or impacted?

I think. And back to Lyme and mold, those are also very common conditions that the program helps with as well. How far reaching is it? I think it goes down to a cellular level really, because when you look at an over activated threat and protective mechanism that's gone awry, you can imagine that would actually affect. It could potentially affect all systems of the body. And I like to really look at this. There are two things that I would like to talk about here. One is a study by Robert K. Nabo and he did a study on something called the cell danger response. So looking. So you're familiar with that?

Well, I was just going to ask you. That popped into my mind. So I'm familiar with Robert Naviao's work in that realm as well at University California, San Diego, I believe. Yeah, so very interesting.

So I think it affects, you know, it can affect the body down to a cellular level where the cell goes into this basic kind of what they call a hibernation or shutdown because of, because of the environment that it's in. It can no longer deal with the toxins or whatever is in the environment. However, I would suggest that that actual cell danger response is actually being activated by a limbic system gone rogue as well. So when you look at the systems that are being affected, I like to think of the analogy of a tiger. If you're being chased away from a tiger, you know, if you're being chased by a tiger, communication isn't important anymore. You're not phoning your friends, you're not texting your friends saying, hey, I'm running away from a tiger. You're just really focused on running and survival as well. When you're running from a tiger, you can't digest food properly. You're not interested in eating. And even if you did eat, your system wouldn't absorb the nutrients, you wouldn't be able to excrete waste products. So detoxification issues come into play as well. So I think that in that kind, when you're looking at what systems of the body are affected, I think that it can affect all systems. You know, if we look at Claudia Miller's work with the queasy survey, looking at the quick environmental index survey, she looks at a lot of different systems of the body of people that were exposed to some kind of chemical exposure and get stuck in this kind of illness cycle or this trauma cycle. And she looks at, you know, respiratory, respiratory system, the cardiovascular system. She's looking at liver detoxification, skin genitourinary system. I mean, I think it affects everything, but mostly what is being affected is the central nervous system. And the brain has been affected at sending those cascading messages to other systems of the body. So I think that looking at a symptom perspective, we're going to find people that have symptoms across the board. They're going to range from cardiovascular symptoms, to pulmonary symptoms, to detoxification symptoms, to pain symptoms, to digestive symptoms, absorption symptoms. I think, I think all of those are symptoms of a much greater problem.

So if we have a hypersensitive limbic system, it sounds like that then puts us into this sympathetic dominant or sympathetic overdrive kind of state. And part of the goal of reducing the limbic system's over firing is to put the body more into a parasympathetic state where we can actually heal, correct?

That's right. You know, it's interesting. I think we have a lot of medications on the market that might be good at decreasing sympathetic firing, but we don't really have a lot out there that increases parasympathetic function. So we really need to get into that parasympathetic function or increase parasympathetic function.

So I think one of the things that people will be interested in is what is the practice of DNRs? What does it look like? What do people engage in? How much time per day do they need to spend doing the work? Is it a meditation? Is it a practice? Is an activity? How do you characterize what people do on a daily work basis with DNRs?

That's a really great question, Scott, and one that's kind of hard to answer, so I'll do my best to answer that for you. So it would fall under the category of mindfulness training, for sure, because we're bringing conscious awareness to subconscious trauma patterns. So I think that that's really important to understand that all of this is kind of happening below your level of awareness. You know, there was some kind of trauma. It wasn't anyone's fault. You know, they had a trauma. The brain's been catapulted now into this fight or flight reaction. So now we have to look at, okay, so the brain is in this state. How do we recognize when we're in that state? And how can we rewire the brain to get out of that state? So one of the things that I ask people to do is to become aware of patterns that might be operating with limbic system impairment. So what are the thought patterns that might be. What are some of the thought patterns that might be an indication that you may be in this chronic fight or flight state? And how can we change those thought patterns to restructure the brain? Another indication might be your emotional state. What kind of emotions does someone tend to have a lot of the time? And generally limbic system impairment related emotions around fear, worry, anxiety, catastrophizing, and, you know, those all make a lot of sense when you're in a state of chronic illness, for sure. And also looking at, okay, so if we can recognize that as part of the actual dysfunction itself, can we use our emotions in a conscious way to help dampen the. That stress response and change the chronic stress response? Also we look at, you know, bringing awareness to behavioral patterns. You know, are there certain behavioral patterns that might be strengthening those neural circuits that are. That are at play? And how can we change our behaviors so that we can, again, dampen that stress response? We also show people tools and how to structurally change the brain. So that's one way how to structurally change the brain, but also how to chemically change the brain. So we want to make sure that we're changing the internal environment, the brain and body's internal environment, from neurochemicals associated with a chronic stress response, and moving from cortisol and adrenaline and norepinephrine. So moving away from those kinds of hormones and neurochemicals into an environment that will actually again, dampen that stress response. So how can we increase. Increase dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins? So we structurally, we show people exercises to structurally and chemically change the brain at the same time. The other thing that we involve is something called incremental training, which is how do you increase, how do you strengthen alternative neural circuitry? So what we're doing is we're putting a block on the old neural pathways that are associated with this chronic fight or flight response, and at the same time, strengthening alternative neural pathways that will help the brain reset itself and go back into that state of growth and repair. So we're really moving away from that state of survival into a state of growth and repair where healing can take place. So incremental training can sometimes look like a small exposure, kind of almost like exposure therapy. Integrative. Integrative exposure therapy where you're exposing yourself in very small amounts to maybe a stimuli that you were sensitive to in the past. But it would really depend on the expression of limbic system impairment and how that looks for chemical sensitivities. It might be exposing yourself to very small amounts of chemicals within a safe parameter to retrain your brain in a very specific way. But that has to be done with a large amount of knowledge. And we wouldn't just say, yes, go expose yourself to chemicals. It has to be in a very graduated way. And of course, we always. We keep in mind that there are two truths here. We know that chemicals may have caused the injury. So we teach the platform from a platform of environmental awareness. And we keep that in mind during the recovery process. So that doesn't mean that you need to introduce chemicals into your life in a daily way or anything like that. It's specifically about retraining the brain so that you're no longer reactive, so that the brain is no longer overreacting to small amounts of stimuli as if it's potentially life threatening. So the other thing that we do is we really stress that this is not an overnight fix. Even though people can sometimes have remarkable shifts in symptoms within even a couple of days sometimes. And certainly when we teach our five day interactive training seminars, we see lots of changes happening within that period of time. But it doesn't really matter when you start to see changes. It's about a dedicated practice daily of an hour a day for six months. And when we say dedicated practice of an hour a day, it's really, I would say more than an hour a day because it really means that you have to be mindful a lot of the time. So that necessarily isn't a specific exercise. But being mindful all of the time is a different set of lenses to look at your life through and can be more of an ongoing thing that you're going to have to pay attention to.

So can you share an experience of someone that has dealt with Lyme disease and used DNRs and some of the benefits that they may have observed?

Yeah, for sure. A couple people that come to mind for Lyme disease, but one that I'll share with you. Riley had Lyme disease for a number of years. And you know, at one point, Riley was paralyzed. He was bedridden, he could not eat, he couldn't talk. He was very, very severely affected by Lyme. Now, Riley had gone to see everyone in the mainstream medical, medical practitioners, alternative medical practitioners. He had dealt with the bacterial load. And he actually found someone in the States, an interstate energy medicine doctor, who had worked with him to really decrease paralysis. And Riley was able to speak again. And, you know, it seemed like he was really coming back, but what he was still left with was some motor function issues, chemical sensitivities, food sensitivities, anxiety, some OCD like behaviors, cognitive impairments. So he was still suffering quite a bit, even though on the outside it looked like he was making huge improvements. And he was. There was still this lingering leftover symptoms from limbic system impairment. So Riley, I forget what month that he attended the program, but anyway, all I can say is that Riley is 100% recovered now.

Wow.

Yeah. He no longer has any chemical sensitivities or food sensitivities or anxiety or motor function problems or any kind of OCD type patterns. He's going to university now. In fact, he went away for one year on his own, traveling Europe, and he's back to living a thriving, normal life. So that's one of the Lyme stories. Yeah, specifically. Really sweet. Because Christine, who is one of our instructors, Riley, is her son. So you can imagine, as his mom, she too had her own limbic system impairment from having a child that was close to death for so long. You can imagine how that would throw her into a chronic fight or flight response as well. So when Riley recovered, Christine recognized that she actually had limbic system impairment, too, and needed to work on her own brain at that time. So Christine's now one of our instructors and one of our coaches. And, yeah, it's kind of full circle. We went to. We were teaching a program in England earlier on this year, and we met up with Riley in Spain, and he got to go watch a soccer game, which was just so thrilling to him because when he was really sick, he couldn't watch a lot of TV or do anything because of the light and the sound and the noise. But one thing that he could watch at one point was soccer because the frame didn't move really quickly, so he was able to watch soccer. So from being in a bed and not being able to move to seeing his favorite soccer team playing in Barcelona was pretty amazing with 90,000 people screaming and, you know, everything that comes with that. So pretty exciting.

Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing story. It sounds like he was significantly impaired with Lyme. And to get to 100% symptom improvement, I mean, that's just something that I don't hear a lot. So, I mean, that's just remarkable. Do you think that to some extent, with all of the exposures that we have in this world with EMFs and chemicals and pesticides and all those things, do you think that we're all on some spectrum in terms of limbic system impairment? Do we all have a little bit of it, or are some people not affected at all?

That's a good question. You know, I think you're right. We do have a lot of stressors in our lives now that we didn't have, say, probably, I don't know, 40 years ago with chemicals and EMFs and the, you know, the amount of just daily life that would. That we're living. But, you know, on the other hand, when I look at that, I think back to, you know, 40 years ago, people had to do everything. You know, I think that life back then, even though it was simpler, it was a lot of hard work, too. So is it because of the exposures that we're having that are triggering people into limbic system dysfunction? I think yes. And I think it's common everyday stuff that people are exposed to on a regular basis, and they're just not aware of it. So, you know, they could be having just kind of vague symptoms like insomnia or chronic pain or muscle and joint pain. Maybe that's how it's starting. Or they're developing food sensitivities and not really noticing what's going on. So, yeah, to answer your question, I think, yeah, it could be possible that it's just everyday things that we're being exposed to that are causing limbic system impairment. And so many people are. You know, there's a very big spectrum of illness, right? It can go from really mild to really severe. I think that a lot of people are probably in that gray area, especially that first half of that spectrum, and they don't even know that they're dealing with an illness of any sort.

So let's talk a little about electro hypersensitivity syndrome or electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome. It seems to be pervasive. EMFs are just everywhere, and so many people that I know that are very reactive to them. I was just talking with someone yesterday who had moved into a new environment and hasn't been doing very well and found eight smart meters just outside the door of the building. And so how does DNRs help people that have strong reactions to EMFs? Do they still need to remove themselves from that exposure or is DNRs able to somehow make them more able to be in that environment, even with some EMF exposures?

That's a really good question, too, and I'd like to take a minute to talk about that. So I think the best way to describe this is to talk about Michelle, who recovered from severe EMF sensitivities. I had EMF sensitivities too, to the point where I was homeless, could not be in my house anymore, which, that's a sad day, right? When you figure that when you realize you just don't have any place to live. And, you know, I had friends and family that said, come and stay with me. And I'm like, I would love to. I would love to be able to come and stay with you, but the fact is I can't be in any building. I can't be anywhere. So, you know, I know what it's like to have severe EMF sensitivities. And it's like being an alien on a different planet. I mean, all of a sudden you've entered this science fiction world where you can detect everything. So, you know, that is in part the limbic system's ability to pick up on stimuli that would not normally. You would not normally pick up on. It's also part of the. It's part of that two truth thing, right? Like, yes, we know that EMFs are hazardous to our health. And, and it can be really hazardous to our health. And at the same time, we know that with limbic system impairment that the brain can be Creating sensory distortions and that small amounts of stimuli may now be seen as life threatening. And that's really where we focus the program is looking at. Okay, so how can we rewire the limbic system so that the brain is evaluating threat perception in a normal way? Now, unfortunately, once we become EMS sensitive or we become chemically sensitive, we've become great researchers on what's in products, the hazards of EMFs, and it is scary. So now we're dealing with someone with limbic system impairment who has a lot of knowledge about how awful the world is. So we really have to look at, okay, where can we put our focus? All right, we're going to shift our focus away from looking at EMFs as potentially dangerous, even though they are. Even though there's some truth to that. We're going to change our focus entirely and make it about strengthening alternative circuitry so that the limbic system has the ability to reset itself and start to evaluate threat perception in a normal way. So that's going to lead me into my story about Michelle. Michelle lived in the radio quiet zone in West Virginia, where there's very little WI fi or no WI fi. She had to move there because she became so EMF sensitive that she could not live anywhere else on the planet. Well, maybe not on the planet, but that was within her resources. So her husband Charlie, they designed a house that would be safe for her. So they moved to West Virginia, bought this plot of land, had somebody build this house specifically to her requirements. It was chemical free. I mean, every product source for that house was absolutely perfect. They created the house. One side of the house had electricity, the other side did not. She had demand, what do you call them? Demand switches off the electricity at any given time. So she had demand switches in the house. She had set this up perfectly for her. And yet when she moved there, okay, she can't really be around electricity at all. But when she moved there, she developed mold sensitivities for no apparent reason. No apparent reason. So anyway, so there she is with EMF sensitive sensitivities. Mold sensitivities. She's trying to find an answer. She's exhausted everything. She comes from a science background, so she's very knowledgeable. She's done a lot of research and she finds out about the program. And eventually it was when we first released the DVDs in 2011. So eventually she gets the DVD and she can't, of course, she can't even be around a computer or TV to watch the dvd. So her husband Charlie has it set up on his computer, far down the hallway. And Michelle's watching it from, I don't know, we'll say, 30ft away or something. And Charlie's like, michelle, can you hear what Annie's saying? Can you hear what she's saying? She's like, yes, I can hear what she's saying. And anyway, Michelle fully recovered with the DVD.

Wow.

She lives on the 29th floor of a condominium high rise in Austin, Texas, completely surrounded by wireless.

Wow.

You know, do we want to be. Do we want to take precautionary measures? Do we want to be smart about it? Yeah, right. We still want to be smart about the choices that we make. And, you know, we're not going to live beside a cell tower or, you know, we're going to be smart about the choices that we make. So it doesn't mean that in rewiring our limbic system that we lose complete common sense. You know, we're still going to practice common sense and recognize that a brain injury can distort sensory perception. And that's exactly what's happening with EMF sensitivities, too. So is it possible to recover from EMF sensitivities? You bet it is. Is it possible to fully recover from EMF sensitivities and be a part of the world again? Yes, absolutely. I see it all the time, so I know that that's possible.

Let's talk a little bit about DNRs and POTs. So postural orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. It's something that I've encountered a lot of people over the years that have been dealing with pots. So maybe a story about POTS and DNRS from your experience?

Yeah, sure. Well, as you know, POTS is an autonomic nervous system dysfunction illness and directly related with limbic system impairment, because, again, you're sending alarm messages to all systems of the body. Actually, on pots, on a POTS node. There's a beautiful book, new book by Patrick Usher, who Patrick actually recovered from POTS using the Dynamic Neural Retraining System. And he wrote a book called POT what It really Is and why It Happens, which I would highly recommend. It's a really good read. And he has. He's interviewed various people in his book that have recovered from pots using DNRs. But I think one of the stories that I'd like to share with you about POTS is Lauren. Lauren was completely disabled with pots. She had a number of other illnesses, too, which is really common when you have pots. She had chronic fatigue syndrome. She had extensive food sensitivities she had chemical sensitivities, anxiety, a ton of other symptoms. And, you know, she went to the Mayo Clinic and they diagnosed her and they were really good at diagnosing her, but didn't really offer a lot of treatment treatments. So when Lauren started recovering with the program, she started with the dvd, but at the time. Oh, yeah, right. She was so light sensitive and sound sensitive that she couldn't actually watch the DVDs. So her father was this engineering genius who actually slowed down the DVD to a tempo that Lauren could hear without being triggered. So she started just with the DVDs. She made a little bit of progress, and then she came to the in person program, the five day interactive training. And at that point, she was in a wheelchair, a reclining wheelchair, because she couldn't. She couldn't stand up any longer. She couldn't sit up or stand up any longer. So she came to the in person program in a wheelchair with labored breathing, could barely, you know, hold her head up almost. And her mom was there with her, feeding her, you know, feeding her food and just being her caretaker. And I remember when I was talking to Lauren on the phone, when I interviewed her for coming to the in person program, she was pretty much convinced that she would be disabled for the rest of her life. And she just thought that her parents were having a hard time accepting that diagnosis. And she said to me, you know, I just think that I need to come to the acceptance that I'm disabled and my parents need to come to that acceptance too. And of course, she was crying, and I said, you know, Lauren, I understand that it's difficult, and I understand that it's challenging. And sometimes there are things in life that you have to accept, but this is not one of them. No one's really explored POTS through the central nervous system or looking at this as a limbic system impairment. So it's really important that you at least really give this your best effort before you throw in the towel and make this assumption that you're going to be disabled for life. So she came to the in person program, and she really understood what she needed to do. And she went home and she practiced like an Olympic athlete. And within one month, she was rollerblading. She went from a wheelchair to rollerblading. So Lauren's fully recovered. And I remember on her registration form she'd written, you know, if I was fully recovered, what I'd like to do is marry my boyfriend and have children. And that's exactly what she did. And she now has a little boy Who's a year and a half old.

You must have fun every day being able to be a part of these kinds of life changing journeys.

Yeah, it is a lot of fun. And I have to say, you know, I always tell people I'm in the very blessed position to be able to witness what other people would think are medical miracles. But when you understand neuroplasticity and that the brain has been changed through trauma, then it makes sense that, you know, neuroplasticity can be part of the pathway out of that as well. Yeah, I'm super excited to be able to work with people. I am. You know, I pinch myself every day thinking, wow, you know, this is such amazing work and it's changing people's lives. And at the same time, I am super frustrated because so many people are still suffering and they don't need to be suffering. And that is. You know, I made a promise to myself when I was sick that if and when I found the answer, that I would share with as many people as possible. And really, it couldn't be fast enough or big enough or can I get the message out there enough because there's still way too many people suffering.

Totally agree. One of the common issues that I experience in talking with other people is a lot of people are dealing with mold in their living environment, in their school environment, in their work environment, and that some people, if you look at the work of Dr. Richie Shoemaker, for example, that some people have a genetic predisposition to not being able to identify molds and water damage, building associated toxins, and excrete those out of the body. I have heard some people that have used DNRs and done well relative to their mold illness. So in the context of mold illness, how is DNRS helping? Is it possible that it's changing a person interaction with mold? So maybe they still get exposed to it, but they don't react in the same way. I think this is an area that people will be really interested in hearing how DNRs may be able to help those with water damage, building or mold illness.

Sure. Again, that's a really good question, Scott. And I think it comes down to those two truths. Again, you know, using common sense. Do we want to live in a moldy place? No, absolutely not. I don't think that that would be healthy for anyone. So I think that that makes common sense. Can we decrease the reactivity to mold? Absolutely. So, you know, I do know of people that have taken the program that have been diagnosed with the dreaded mold gene or the Inability to detoxify mold, and they've fully recovered, and they can go into places that they couldn't go before. So rather that. Whether that was a library or an old building or even someplace that has air conditioning, I mean, I know people that are so mold sensitive that the brain is picking up on the smallest molecules of anything that is remotely similar to mold as potentially life threatening. So, you know, people live in really hot climates that can't have air conditioning on anymore. They can't be in air conditioned cars or they. So I know that some of these people are now fully recovered. They can be in air conditioned buildings, they can be in old places. They might not live in those places, but they're certainly able to tolerate those places. Does that make sense?

It does. So what we're saying is if someone has a significant mold issue in their home, for example, or in their workplace, they should still do what they can to remediate that issue, to remove the source of the mold. We're not saying that DNRS allows them to be in this environment necessarily every day, but that they can get to a point that they can be out in the world and not be affected by more infrequent exposures. Is that a reasonable way to kind of.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So that you're not limited in where you can go and what you can do. Of course you're going to maintain a really healthy living environment and work environment, because, you know, that just makes common sense.

Yeah. That's huge, though. I mean, I know people with mold illness that, you know, there are many of them isolated to one environment and they can't go out in the world. And so just being able to have that freedom to start living again is really significant. You mentioned earlier in the conversation about mast cell activation. And so I think this is an area over the last year or so that almost everybody in functional medicine is talking about the idea that mast cells release histamines and other messengers that create inflammation in the body, that they can be triggered by parasites and foods and heavy metals and molds and all kinds of different substances. So how does DNRs help Mast cell activation?

Sure. Well, I think along with mast cell activation being triggered by parasites, certain foods, or heavy metals, it's also activated by an impaired limbic system. So, you know, if you look at histamine in a very general term, it's a local alarm to what the body is perceiving as a potential danger. So is it possible that the brain and its innate capacity to protect us, although maybe not a Very great strategy at the time. It's been altered through trauma. And now this alarm system is potentially telling a lot of the systems of the body that we're in danger. So I think that increased histamine response could actually be another symptom of limbic system impairment. And we've actually heard of people. That's exactly what's happened. They have mast cell activation, they rewire the limbic system, and they no longer have mast cell activation problems. Again, I think that there are many things that can cause that, but, you know, indirectly, I think the limbic system, or directly the limbic system is being indicated there. And by rewiring limbic system function, you could stop the histamine release as well.

And that makes a lot of sense, because I think mast cell activation is an overreaction. So being able to kind of calm that whole system down. That's very interesting. Maybe we can talk for a couple minutes about people that have had inflammation, chronic pain disorders, and how DNRs might help them to reduce inflammation or pain.

Well, you know, it's interesting. Pain receptors in the brain are located in the limbic system. So you can imagine, you know, you could have some form of injury and address that injury, and yet the brain can get catapulted into this or stuck in the cycle of illness. So regardless of what's actually happening in the body, structurally, the brain is now stuck in this chronic pain cycle. So pain itself can be a symptom of the brain just being in this maladaptive response. Does that cause inflammation? Yes, it does, absolutely. A lot of things cause inflammation, like, you know, so, you know, when we're looking at pain again, it's no different than any other type of trauma, you know, or any other kind of trigger for limbic system impairment, because it's a physical trauma that's created a pain response, and the brain gets stuck in that pain response. So we're really just rewiring the brain to get out of that pain response. And. Yes. Have I seen chronic pain go away? Unbelievable things. McKenna, for instance, she had. She's a young girl. I think she's about 19 now, and she was 18 when she came to the program, which is just over a year ago, and she had chronic pain in her legs, and she also had cerebral palsy, which I told her in the interview. I said, you know, I have no idea if the program can help cerebral palsy, and I wouldn't even make any claims that might. But certainly I think that you could find relief from chronic pain. So one of the Other things is she had. She had chronic pain, but she also had other sensory type of distortions as well. So even the feeling of fabric on her legs was painful. Having a shower was extremely painful. And she used to wear two. She used to wear bandages on her legs, completely covering her legs and walk with special braces on her legs to be able to walk. And McKenna came to the program and, yeah, I don't know how long it was afterwards, but she started to notice differences in pain first, in sensory sensitivities. So she was able to have a shower and the water didn't hurt or hot temperatures didn't hurt. She was able to have fabric against her skin. The pain syndrome completely went away and she even started changing. She happened. She started having changes in her actual gait that was supposedly part of cerebral palsy. So she's been able to stop wearing braces on her legs and. Yeah, just these amazing, miraculous things. And she said to me at one point, she said, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I was just misdiagnosed with having cerebral palsy.

Wow, that's huge.

Yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't necessarily think that cerebral palsy is going to go away, but I can certainly tell you that her gait has changed. She is pain free. And she was at the point, actually, her parents both sent me thank you letters and she was at the point where she was scheduled to have some kind of surgery that would somehow, I don't understand it completely, something about a morphine drip and she would be paralyzed from the waist down. And it was the last resort and she came to the program and now she's pain free, she's engaged in school, she's becoming a nurse and having a very normal and active life. She walked a 10k race and, you know, she's just involved in life in a really normal way. She actually came to see me speak at the Institute for Functional Medicine in June in la. So it was the first time that I saw her since she actually attended the program. So that's always, always. I could cry. It's always a special treat for me to be able to see people after because usually I see them when they're really, really sick and they've exhausted a lot of treatments. A lot of people are very skeptical and they're at their worst, honestly. So to be able to see her thriving and, yeah, it was just amazing.

That's huge.

She got to meet Dr. Norman Deutsch. That was her big. She was like, oh, I can't believe I'm gonna get to meet him. So, yeah, it was really great.

That's fantastic. Another issue that people often send me emails about is tinnitus or tinnitus with the ringing in the ears. Most people say, including many doctors that I've spoken with over the years, there is nothing that can improve tinnitus. It's a condition you need to learn to live with. And I understand that some people have been able to address tinnitus using DNRs. So maybe you can share a couple of comments about that possibility with us as well.

Yeah, sure. Well, you know, bringing of the ears. I mean, it can be like any sensory distortion as far as I'm concerned, whether it's ringing in the ears or it's a sensory distortion. So the brain is in the sensory distortion hiccup, and for whatever reason, it's created tinnitus as the symptom. We don't know why. I mean, even the people who are specialists, they don't know why the brain does that or how it happens. It could be some form of trauma, again, that triggers that symptom. But from my perspective, I think it's just another sensory distortion that can be normalized again. So I think through rewiring the brain, that there is, you know, it. When you rewire limbic system function, it normalizes not just one sensory function, but all sensory function. So, you know, you could have 10 different sensory challenges that you're coming with, whether that's light sensitivity, sound sensitivity, ringing in the ears, chemical sensations, sensitivity, EMF sensitivity, food sensitivities. The whole enchilada is what comes to mind. I mean, you can have all of it, but it doesn't really matter, because when you're dealing with limbic system trauma and limbic system rehabilitation, we're really looking at normalizing all sensory perception. So I would say that tinnitus really falls into that category of just a distorted sensory perception.

I spoke recently to a medical doctor that's a big fan of DNRs, and you uses your program with his patients, made the comment that the focus seems to be on MCS and multiple chemical sensitivity. And yet their observation was that the program worked well for people that did not have multiple chemical sensitivities, but that were unusually reactive to all kinds of other stimuli besides chemicals. And it sounds like from our conversation, you see that as well, you don't have to be reactive to chemicals to benefit from something like DNRs.

No, not at all. Actually, I think that, you know, it's not just sensory and any sensory Perception or any kind of sensory distortion would be helped by that, but also emotional distortions too. So when you're talking about anxiety, depression, things of that nature too can be helped. So yeah, it doesn't really matter what the symptom is or the symptomology or what you're expressing as. I think the bigger question is, is it possible that an over activated chronic stress response is involved in this illness? And if the answer to that is yes, then I think that rewiring limbic system function would be advisable.

Are there some people that maybe are not great candidates for DNRs or certain reasons? That if there were people that maybe didn't achieve their goals with the program, that there were certain kind of characteristics of the. Those people that make them not ideal candidates? Maybe, or does it seem to work for anyone that commits to doing the work?

I would say, you know, maybe people that wouldn't be ideal candidates or someone with maybe some other. Some mental illness of some sort, you know, like schizophrenia or I don't know, maybe certain forms of bipolar, if they're not being medicated or something of that nature. People that are under extreme amounts of stress currently, like so with a, you know, say they just got recently separated in a relationship. Well, that might not be a good time to really apply the program because it might be best to wait just a little bit. Or if someone has passed away, you know, you might want to wait a little bit before you employ the program because you really have to focus in a very specific way. What other things? I think that would be kind of the only thing that I would say for people that I wouldn't be advisable to do the program. Certainly it takes a lot of dedication and it takes commitment. So Riley, you know, Riley, who recovered from Lyme disease or the effects of Lyme disease, he said it doesn't take Olympic energy, but it takes Olympic dedication. So if you're willing to focus and you're willing to practice on a daily basis, then from my standpoint, the brain actually has no. It has no other. Sorry, I have to back up. It has to change. You know, if you're actually doing the exercises and you're doing them as we say, and you're following all the guidelines, then the brain has no choice but to make those changes, because that's what the brain does. So it's kind of like learning a new language. If you practice that language often enough, you'll begin to remember that language and the brain will remember the associations with that language. But if you don't practice, nothing happens. So it does take a committed focus for at least six months.

So many people with chronic illnesses have been told time and time again that their illness was all in their head. And so my question to you is, if we can fix it or fix the illness or fix the symptoms with something like DNRs, does that mean that those people were right? And why is telling someone that their illness is in their head a very, very serious mistake?

Yeah, really good question. It's all in your head. I can remember I was told that it must be in your head, it must be your consciousness. You must be attracting this to you somehow. And I thought, oh my goodness, you have no idea what it's like to deal with a chronic illness. It's not in your head at all. Actually. It's a very serious brain trauma. This is comparable to somebody having a stroke. It's just a different brain trauma. And this specific kind of brain trauma is affecting a lot of systems of the body. And what people are experiencing is very real. It's very debilitating and sometimes completely leaves people completely disabled and isolated. I can't think of any other illness that is like that where it isolates you from life to that degree. I mean, you could have cancer and people would support you and they'd rally around you and your family would be supportive and everybody would understand and you'd have go to specialist appointments or whatever. But with limbic system impairment and a lot of these illnesses, that's not the case. A lot of people look at you like you have three heads and it just is, you know, to say to someone that it's all in your head is a very misleading. And also it just doesn't do the illness justice. It's a brain trauma that's affecting multiple systems of the body. So it would, it's actually very damaging to say to someone, it must be all in your head.

I agree with that. Amen. Hallelujah. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the program. What are some things that people need to keep in mind to really be successful with it? How does the DVD course differ from the in person events? How do people access support? I know you have coaches and things, but for people that are interested and maybe you can just tell us us a little bit about the course itself.

Sure, absolutely. So there are two different ways to actually interact with the program. We have two different formats. First, there's a 14 hour instructional DVD that's been translated into eight languages. And so that's for people who really, you know, can't leave their home or they have financial restrictions or whatever, that would be a really good option for them. If they do the dvd, what I would recommend is that they book at least one coaching session after they've completed the entire DVD so that they have the opportunity to have any questions answered. And also if they need ongoing support or ongoing guidance or they need clarification, then to book regular sessions with our certified coaches. All of our coaches have recovered from limbic system impairment or limbic system trauma and related illnesses through the dynamic neuro retraining system. And they've been extensively trained. So they know exactly how to support someone with the program and how to, you know, get you to focus on what you need to focus on to recover and to do what you need to do to recover. The other way to engage in the program is our five day interactive training seminars. And that is really the gold standard of the program. So we limit, we limit numbers from 20 to 30 people depending on location that we hold the program, but it's usually groups of 20 people. And you have direct access to myself or my other instructors. And, you know, we guide you step by step through the process, through the science, through the application. We create a very supportive environment for you. We try to pick venues that are environmentally aware. We try to source food that's good. We try to make sure that you don't have anything else to worry about besides just focusing on limbic system retraining. The other great thing about attending an in person seminar is that you're with a group of other people that are also on the same journey and the focus is no longer about symptoms of illness, it's about recovery. So you have this, you know, this whole support group of people that are with you in your recovery process. So I think that that's invaluable too. I mean, I know McKenna, for instance, she still keeps in close contact with a lot of the people that she went to the program with. Linda, one of our coaches, she still keeps in touch with a lot of the people that she was in her program with. So I think that that can form, you know, you can form a recovery group through the connections that you make with people at the program too.

Nice. Very powerful. I'm excited. Fantastic. So. So let's talk about medical studies. I understand you're doing some medical studies. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about those.

Sure. There are two medical studies happening right now. They're independent medical studies, which means that we have nothing to do with the actual formation of these studies. They're really looking at DNRs as the treatment protocol. One study is happening at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario and it's really an observational study looking at standardized surveys that have been devised for things like anxiety or chemical exposure or depression and a number of other things. You're looking at standardized studies and how do pain syndromes and chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. So looking at those standardized surveys and how DNRS is changing or how to measure symptomology, basically, basically using those surveys to measure decreases in symptoms. The other study that's happening is at the University of Calgary in Unison with the University of Alberta. They will be doing a bigger study looking at functional MRIs, so getting some brain scans done before people start the program and then again at a six month marker after they've attended and applied the program to see if there are any changes in brain function that are taking place and how that might relate to other systems of the body. So that's pretty exciting.

That's really exciting. Yeah. That's fantastic.

We're still in phase one of that, I believe. So. You know, I'm not really sure how long studies take. It's not, it's out of my hands, it's in the university's hands now. But we're really excited about the studies and hope, hope that that will open the door to a accepting neural retraining as a valid treatment for a lot of these illnesses, but also open the doors to other research as well.

Yeah, fantastic. So what are some of the key things that you do in support of your own health on a daily basis?

Oh, that's a really good question. I have to admit, I don't think I've been as good lately as I could be, for sure. It's funny, I think back of that, you know, when you've had this illness, when you've had chronic illness like this, it feels when you're in it that there will never be a day when you're out of it, that this is just going to be how it is. And all of your energy is spent on just getting through another day, trying how to survive, you know, trying to figure out how to survive, what is the next treatment, what is the next protocol, what is the next supplement? I mean, everything about your life is consumed with how to survive. So on the flip side of that, you know, because I've been removed from the illness now for so long, it's hard to remember what that's like. So now my days are filled with just regular stuff like, you know, what do I need to do for work today? You know, my health takes up about one speck of my entire life, and it's not my entire life anymore. So could it stand to be a little bit bigger part of my life? Yes, I would say that, you know, I'm exercising but not doing exactly what I'd like to do. You know, I'd like to get back into doing cardio every day and doing some fun things exercise wise, but that's about it. You know, the amount of time that I spend on even focusing on that is so minimal. So what do I do to take care of myself? I go for a walk along the ocean just about every day. I'm very blessed. I live really close to the ocean, so I get to take my dog for walks along the ocean. I also. What else do I do? You know, I take care of my diet for the most part, but I'm not super stressed on anything. I don't have any kind of food sensitivities anymore, issues around that. What else do I do? I meditate occasionally. I go out and have fun. Most of it is about just being in nature, going for walks, and having as much fun as I possibly can.

How about living your purpose and your passion? I think that's a really big deal, and it's clear that you're doing that, and I think that supports us in our health as much or more than anything else we can take on or do.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, I couldn't imagine spending my life any other way. When you know what's possible, then of course you want that to be possible for everyone.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

You know, when you live that suffering, it's like, oh my goodness, there's an answer out of suffering. You don't have to live like this. Your life can be completely different. And when you move from a state of survival into a state of growth and repair, again, it's evident. Like, it's almost like you get, you know, the changes may be subtle, but it's almost as if you can feel your brain shifting while that's happening, and you can feel the systems of your body shifting. And it's incredible. I can't. I can't even describe it any other way beyond to say it's a complete. It's a completely different life. A completely different life.

One of my first exposures to DNRs was a young lady that I was getting doing some coaching with a couple of years ago. And the first time that I met with her she had dark glasses on, she had a mask over her face and she had headphones or earplugs, maybe both. She was just so reactive to everything. And about six months later, I met with her again and she had none of those things. And I said, what did you do? Like, it's just amazing. You couldn't even be out in the world before. And she was not only without those things, but she was smiling and engaging and her brain was was clear. And she said DNRS was the thing that she had done. And I've had a couple of other people that I've worked with since then that also have said that it's been really transformative for them. So I want to thank you for the work that you do, for taking time out of your I know very busy schedule to be here today to share with me, to share with those that are listening and just for everything that you do to help people that are struggling and suffering to get beyond that and get back to to their life and to living again as you've done with your own personal journey. So thank you so, so much.

Oh, thank you, Scott. Thank you for the work that you're doing and helping so many people. Thank you.

Thanks. To learn more about Today's guest, visit retrainingthebrain.com that's retrainingthebrain.com I appreciate your support of the BetterHealth Guy blogcast series. If you'd like to follow me, you can find me on Facebook and Twitter as Better HealthGuy. The show can be found on YouTube, iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. If you'd like to support the show, please visit betterhealthguy.com donate and if you'd like to be added to my newsletter, please visit betterhealthguy.com newsletters I'm looking forward to many more shows ahead and appreciate your interest.

Thanks for listening to this Better Health Guy blog podcast with Scott, your Better Health Guy. To check out additional shows and learn more about Scott's personal journey to better health, please visit betterhealthguy. Com.