Hiring the Right People to Test, Inspect, and Remediate Your Home

The title doesn't matter as much as the experience and the training and the understanding of the person you hire. And we're going to talk about that.

Hi, everyone. My name is Jamie Way with Change the Air Foundation. I'm here interviewing Kendra Seymour. Happy to be here talking to you about how you can find the right people to inspect your home, how to find the right people to remediate your home. And Kendra is a well of knowledge. I've been following all of her posts and information with her own group. So I'm just happy to talk to you and thank you for the time.

Thanks, Jamie. Yeah, I was so excited to talk about this conversation. I'm sure you can relate because it's so hard to know who to hire and find the right people. And sometimes you end up hiring the wrong people. And that takes time and money and things like that. Resources that people don't have a lot of. So hopefully today we can make this process a little easier. So I'm going to go ahead. Is it okay if I jump right in?

Please.

I'm going to share my screen here. Can you see my slideshow?

We are in.

We're good. Okay. All right. So everyone, yeah, My name is Kendra Seymour. I am one of the co founders of Change the Air Foundation. I am a mother who experienced firsthand how our indoor air can impact the health of yourself and your loved ones. And our journey started 10 years ago. And since then, I have been on a quest to, you know, make healthier indoor air and healthier homes a priority not only for my family, but for those around me, because I believe it really is so important. So today we're going to talk about, how do you find those people? I am not an industry expert, so what I'm offering you today are tips and tidbits and information so that you can navigate this process a little easier. Because what I will tell you is, early on, I made every single mistake possible. And so I'm hoping that by the end of this, you will make smarter choices for your family than I did early on and avoid some of those mistakes and pitfalls that are so common. So before we even jump in, I kind of want to frame the challenge here that many of us face. It can be really hard to separate the good companies from the bad. And so whether it's somebody who's inspecting your home or. Or remediating your home, you as a consumer are left with not a lot of options. So maybe you go on Yelp or something and you're looking who has the five star Reviews or whatever. But what does that mean? Does that person really understand what's going on in your home? Now I will tell you that, you know, the title doesn't matter as much as the experience and the training and the understanding of the person you hire. And we're going to talk about that. I, for example, live in the state of Virginia. Now in Virginia, I could go to bed tonight, wake up tomorrow and call myself a mold remediator. No requirements, no training. I could print off my business cards. I could make myself a spiffy looking website. I could, you know, put whatever I wanted basically on there and call myself a molder mediator and that's it. So how do you decide who the right people are for your home? I've been in your shoes before. And so by the end of this, here are some things that I hope you walk away with. How do you get started? Because there are some things that you don't want to do. But don't worry if you made those mistakes. I did too. I'm sure Jamie, you can relate. So we'll talk about getting started. We're going to talk about three key people in remediation project and you're probably thinking, wait, three. And we're going to talk about why and how to find a good indoor environmental professional and how to find a good remediation company and some common mistakes that I have seen that I have, you know, had happened to me that with the people I talk to day in and day out have made. So that again, hopefully you can avoid those pitfalls because this is an industry, whether it's remediation or inspection, that is not well regulated. In fact, there are no federal regulations and at the state level I think there's only a handful of states, four that even offer any kind of guidance or certification requirements, requirements. So basically it is the wild, wild west out there. So let's talk about what you can do to kind of navigate the craziness that is trying to find the right people to inspect, test and potentially even remediate your home. So some of the reasons that people test and inspect their home, obviously if you have mold growth, maybe something visible that you can see, people will be like, all right, I should probably look into that, get that taken care of. And before we go any further though, I want to point out something that's super important. If you have visible mold growth, regardless of the type of mold, you want to have that removed safely. And we suggest following at a minimum the standards laid out by the IICRCS520 that's because it does not matter what kind of mold it is. The same procedures are in place regardless of the type of mold. Right. You don't say, oh, well, this is a less dangerous mold. I can, you know, just rip this out myself. It doesn't matter the type of mold. Right. You want the same. Same standards. So now that I got that out of the way, some other reasons people test, you know, if you've ever remember, like as a kid, grandma's basement maybe had like that funky smell. Maybe there's an odor, you know, every time you go into the bathroom, that. That musty odor we sometimes equate with mold growth. If you have had a home that maybe, you know, floods every spring when it rains and you get a little bit of water in the back door or basement, you know, that that's for some people, hey, maybe I should look into this a little bit more often. People with unexplained health issues. So those issues that aren't getting better despite your doctor's interventions, maybe it's reoccurring sinus infections, maybe it's eczema, maybe it's chronic fatigue. Maybe like in my own story, you're just collecting diagnoses like, you know, kids collect candy, and you're thinking, well, why am I not getting better? And maybe it's time to start looking into your home. Obviously, those looking to buy or rent are going to maybe think a little bit more about this, and we'll talk about that. Your home inspector, if you're buying, is different than your indoor environmental professional. And there's. Those are two important skill sets that are different. So we'll talk about that a little bit. And then if you have any of the five signs of water damage, and we're going to talk about more on that later, so keep that in mind. But really the biggest reason, and if you're listening to this, I hope you walk away with this stat, if nothing else, that the average person spends more than 90% of their time indoors, and that's breathing in air that we know is potentially bad for their health. And this is the average American. And this stat comes pre Covid, so it's probably even a little higher now. So I turned 40 this year. And to put that in perspective, that means I have spent roughly 36 years of my life indoors. It's crazy. So if you're not thinking about what's in your air, you might be missing an important piece of your puzzle. And here's another way to look at it. If you have children by the time they finish school, roughly, they will have spent over 15,000 hours in a school building. So what's in the air in our schools? And that is a separate talk, actually, for another time. But we're spending a lot of time indoors. We want to be paying attention to that air that we're breathing. So if nothing else, we spend a lot of time here, make sure it's healthy, make sure it's safe for you and your loved ones. So getting started, please don't panic. I get this as a mother at the core, that if maybe you're cleaning out underneath your sink finally, and you see some mold and you freaking like, I want it out. And you go, and you're like, I'm just going to spray it real quick or wipe it down or throw bleach on it, or maybe it's a closet or something. And if my husband's just going to open it up. Stop. Don't do anything. Okay, quick biology lesson. Mold spores are microscopic. By the time you see mold, there's a fair amount of mold growth. It takes roughly 400, I'm sorry, 4 million spores of Penicillium spores to take up 1 square inch. So that's about the size of a post. It. I'm sorry, a stamp, A postage stamp. That's 4 million spores on that little 1 square inch. So by the time you see it, there's a lot going on already. I'm going to make the case during the course of this talk that you may not even want to call remediation company first. I'm going to suggest you actually call a good indoor environmental professional first and we'll talk about why. And the other thing, I see this all the time because you're panicking. You literally just hire the first person you can get to your house. Oh, they can come tomorrow. Thank goodness. And. And maybe that is the right person for your home. But you want to take some time to vet them. And that's where I'm talking. I'm going to give you questions to vet these people. What you're looking for red flags. So what you should do, take a deep breath. This is hard research before you react. This is. I live and breathe this phrase. Take the time to understand what's going on, because remember, this industry is not very regulated. So it becomes your responsibility to do your due diligence, to do your homework and make sure the people that you're hiring actually know what they're doing and have your best interest at heart. It is helpful to focus on your next step, not 10 steps down the road. So if you see something, just focus on bringing in that IEP first. Don't worry about what happens if you have to remediate or rebuild. You can freak yourself out. So sometimes it's helpful just to think about what is the next thing I have to do. And you know, watch this presentation, of course, or any of the other summit talks, actually. Lots of great stuff here. So there are three key people in your remediation project and I'm going to say right now there's an honorable mention and that's your healthcare practitioner. I am not diminishing the role that a mold literate practitioner plays. But for your home and for the purposes of this talk, we're talking about three, you are a critical piece of this and you're thinking, well, why? I don't have any training. And it's because you have the understanding of the history of the home. If that toilet over flood overflows a lot, if your kids are splashing out, if it, you know, you get water in the back door, you know, all the time and you know, maybe your sump pup failed one time and the basement flooded. You have really important information that the IEP doesn't. You also have the most to gain or lose in this situation. Right. No one is going to care about your health or home as much as you. So really, you know, take that as you have that understanding that an IEP won't. And Jamie, I know we've talked about this, but you, you in a sense have found a lot of the issues yourself once you knew what to look for. So you are an important piece of that equation. An iep, that indoor environmental professional, is the person who's specifically trained to seek out sources of water damage and mold and other environmental pollutants. Ideally, they do not have a financial interest in the size of your project. And this is really important and we're going to talk about that. They're there to give an independent assessment. Okay, then you have your remediation company who ideally follows the plan or the scope of work written by your iep and their goal should be on removal of any mold and water damage, not killing it. And we're going to talk about that. I do want to point out in this like lower right hand corner because we're going to make the slides available to you guys. I've linked to resources. I wrote an article on this that you can find on changethe airfoundation.org about three key people in remediation project that goes a little bit more into detail. But if you download this presentation, it's hyperlinked there. So check those out when you see that symbol. So here's a tip, and this is really important. The company doing your inspection should be different than the company doing the remediation. It's a huge conflict of interest and in some states it's actually not even legal. Why? Because you want to make sure that the person doing the inspection has no financial interest in exaggerating the scope of work. So I'm going to tell you a quick story. I hired early on, I literally had just had a baby three days before and we found some mold in the basement. And I hired, I just had a baby three days before and we found a little bit of mold in the basement. And I just wanted to deal with this. So I had the guy come over, he's like, yeah, yeah, there's some moisture here. You know, I'll set up containment. Great. I was like, I can't even think about this. Just do it. And he remediates and then he does the post testing and he says the results look good enough. Now I have like a two week old at this point and I'm like, great, if you say they're good enough, I trust you. Well, not to ruin a story, we ended up having to go back and have that area redone because he didn't want to take the time to go back and re clean. And in fact he missed an entire wall of mold. And so you want to keep these separate and we'll talk about the distinct roles that each company should be playing. So again, keep them separate if you can. If a company offers both services, pick them to do one. Maybe just the remediation or maybe just the inspection side, but keep them separate as much as possible. So why would you hire an indoor environmental professional? This is an extra cost and I get it, this is so expensive. But I promise you this will, this is going to give you important information that will hopefully save you time and stress in the long run. And so this is what ideally an IEP should do. And I'm saying ideally because this again, industry is not really regulated. And IEP is actually a blanket term used to describe people with varying skill sets and trades and certifications. So it's a general term and they're going to do that independent assessment of your entire home. And this is important. They should go through your home from top to bottom. So they're in your attic, they're all the way down to your basement. They're looking, they're pulling out your refrigerator, they're checking around windows, they're peeking in your ducts and your H vac unit, they are checking your entire home. This is a multi hour investigation and they're going to use a variety of tools and if necessary, testing methods to help them so that they're getting this complete picture of what is going on. The other reason to do it is that mold is often hidden. It's hidden behind walls and it's in hard to reach places, places you're not going like your attic typically or crawl spaces or you know, the basement closet that you throw all your holiday decorations in, it's behind your refrigerator and underneath your dishwasher. So it really, you want to take some time and have someone who has the skill set that they know what they're looking for. And I'm going to give you guys a little preview of some of that too. And really they ensure that the procedures and practices that are done if remediation is needed is what is safest and best for you. Not what's fastest for the remediation company, not what's easiest for the remediation company, not what's cheapest for the remediation company. Some of these companies want to get in and out, right? They want to make a quick buck. They're going to get in, they're going to get out, it may look clean and they want to move on to the next paying customer. So they want to make sure your IEP is there to ensure that what is done is best for you. They should write the remediation plan or the scope of work to be done, how far you know, the containment should stretch, how much drywall should be removed, what are the procedures for coming in and out of the containment? Okay, and they can be that go between you and the remediation company and we'll talk about that a little bit more too. And they're going to be the ones, like I said, who should perform that post remediation verification testing because that's the testing that's done after you've done your remediation project but before your containment comes down because you've spent a lot of money. If you're remediating, don't you want to know that it actually worked so that person can offer that independent assessment and we'll talk a little bit more about that too. So there are, you know, I, I've kind of come up with like three different types of IEPs and there's a great resource, an interview I did with, with Brian Carr that goes into more Detail, if you want to check that out. But again, I said this is a very general term and the skill sets vary greatly. You have to do your homework here. Don't just hire someone because they call themselves an IEP or they have certain letters after their name. The first, and this is sadly the most common, Jamie, is the IEP that only does air samples. So here's what it looks like. They come into your home, they look around for maybe 45 minutes. Most of that time is spent setting up and taking down air testing equipment. And they're taking the air test in the center of the room away from the walls and probably sources. And they're not really looking at anything. And they're like, all right, well you know what the test says. They didn't, they didn't really look around your home. They didn't ask you about the history of it. They're taking ambient air samples that may or may not tell you what you need to know. And we actually have a whole mini class on air sampling that going to recommend everyone check out when they have time that talks about how testing needs to be done strategically and correctly or it can give you misleading information. So that's, number one, it's most common. In and out, 45 minutes. Yeah, not really going to get you to the bottom of your problem. Number two, this is the IEP who, they're like, oh no, I'm going to spend time, I'm going to look through your house. But they really only do, you know, maybe a visual inspection. And they rely on their fancy tools, their, their thermal imaging and their moisture meter. Now those are great tools, I own those personally, and they can give you important information. But an IEP who only uses those tools, a moisture meter or thermal imaging, might miss something. And that's because once the moisture source has dried, maybe you, you stopped the leak or you know, you cleaned up the water from the overflow tub, but all that water is there, eventually dries up. That thermal imaging camera, that moisture meter isn't going to pick up on that. But that mold is still there and dormant mold is still a health hazard. And so that tool is not going to tell them all the information that they need. So if they're only relying on that, maybe not, maybe not. The best person for your job, who you want to hire is that person who really does a multi pronged approach. And again, there's a resource here you can watch, but that involves that inspection of the entire home. It involves a variety of tools and it involves using testing strategically. And when it Makes sense. So focus on that person who really sees this as a puzzle that you're putting together. So a good iep. This is a graphic that went on our social media last year. Just kind of sums up what they're doing. In addition, that good iep, they should be asking you about the history of your home. I actually, I know an IP. He has an 8 page intake form before he even comes to your house. And a lot of that is, tell me what has gone on in your home. What water events do you know of? You're not always going to know the history. What's the health? Do you get a headache every time you're in your office? And do you smell mold? Are you not getting better with treatment from your doctor? You have important information there and your IEP should be asking you for it. I threw this in because I think it's important. You may be watching this and thinking, well, I don't see mold and I don't smell mold. I don't think I have a problem. And it's just not that simple. And I know Jamie, you can probably relate to that. So there are five signs of hidden mold growth that I want to quickly show you. And that's because the secret to looking for mold is not to look for mold. It's to look for signs of water damage. Right. Because water, moisture, soy, sage, will lead to mold growth. So if you see any of these five signs, it's worth inspecting. And I bet all of us have seen these signs in a home we lived in or maybe our current home at some point. So I'm going to quickly go through this. That water stain. Right. Here are some test results. These are all surface sample results, meaning they took a swab or a tape lift of this actual area. That doesn't look moldy. Okay. Just looks like water staining. That came back as having, you know, a raw count of almost 3,000 Aspergillus or Aspergillus and penicillium, like spores. Right. It had a lot of Cladosporium. So that doesn't look like the movies with the big moldy wall. This is an H vac mini split. Someone might say, oh, that looks like dirt. Well, that's a lot of Cloudosporium there. Over a hundred thousand spores in the raw count. And every time that mini split turns on guess what's blowing through your environment? Those mold spores and fragments and any, you know, else that might be hitching along for the ride. This is inside the seal of your refrigerators. That sometimes happens if the seal Isn't good. You'll see because of the temperature difference, some condensation form, and you can get mold growth. Okay, so these are all things you wouldn't necessarily think are problematic. This. This is this lower right corner of this door frame. Right. There was some water damage. Water coming in from the exterior. This had stacky buttress, which is. You know, you'll sometimes see this in the media as black mold. And it's extremely toxic. And there's over 17,000 spores in the raw count there. That is extremely toxic stuff. And it doesn't look like the giant wall of mold you see in all the stock art when, you know, a news story airs about mold. Right behind that wall is a lot more. This is a. An H VAC platform and the water heater platform. And it just looks dirty. Right. I'm sure, you know, we've all seen this, and you think that's not a big deal. Catonium, stachybotrys, aspergillus, penicillium. Like spores. These are very toxic and problematic mold spores to have, and they're in high quantities. And it doesn't look like that big of a problem, but it's something that can be impacting your health. Same thing. This is growth on the side of a cabinet. You can actually get mold growth from just the humidity in the air with certain species. So you don't need a leak or a spill or a flood to have a problem. If the humidity, relative humidity starts to go above 60%, you can start getting mold growth of certain species of mold. We see this sometimes in, like, closets where the air, it's dark and stagnant. You have a lot of stuff, and there's not a lot of air movement, and the humidity is higher in the closet. I know wallpaper is kind of trending back a little bit. A lot of great styles, but this is behind wallpaper. The number of times I've seen mold behind a wallpaper is crazy. It acts as a vapor barrier. We won't get into it. But, you know, wallpaper is something you want to be really mindful of where you put it. What's on the other side of that wall. Is it exterior? Is it in a bathroom? Is it in a kitchen? You may want to consider, you know, other options. Almost 30,000 spores of Stachybotrys were picked up on that wallpaper. That is black mold. That's just hidden. Right. This is an attic. I bet framing. I bet this looks like a lot of people's attics. And you think, well, it's in my attic. It can't hurt me, but it can. The air in your attic can impact the rest of your home, just like the air in your crawl space or basement can impact the rest of your home. And so things that you get told, well, it just looks like dirt. Well, do a quick swab or surface sample, find out for sure. You don't want to be just looking at something. No one can look at it and say, well, that's not a dangerous kind of mold or that's just dirt. You're better off finding out for sure unless the person has microscope for eyes. So there is a free testing series we offer@changetheirfoundation.org you can go to our mini class series and we talk about all the different kinds of testing options if that's something you wanted to learn more about. And then we obviously we have our freebie, that guide that has gone out and has a ton of great information, but that again is a resource to empower you so that you understand those test results. So how do you find a good iep? We talked a little bit about why you want to hire this person, what they do. You can go to the ACAC and NORMI websites and I've listed them out here and you can look for as a starting point certain, you know, credentials here. I want to reiterate the point though that the letters after a person's name matter less than their actual understanding, their actual philosophy, their training, their experience. And so you're going to want to ask questions. So at Change the Earth Foundation, I actually wrote out 19 must ask questions. And I apologize for all of you are like, you could not have made it 20, but as 19, I, I couldn't, I, I, maybe one day I'll come up with one more but and these questions are going to go into detail. I'm going to take a moment and I'm actually going to walk you through it because it could be a whole thing on itself, but I want to show you the kinds of things that you should be asking. So give me a minute here. If I can get it to pull up.

This is already so helpful as a person. I mean, I live in it, but I'm still learning so much just from you walking through this.

So, so for I had it all queued up. I apologize. Give me one second here. I'm going to have to pull it up because I want to show you why you are going to want to, to read this. So on our website you'll see it. You can even go to the Search bar and just type in, you know, questions to ask an IEP and it'll come up. I have broken down the questions. You're going to ask them about the process, and I've given you the answers. What are you listening for? Right. What kinds of things? Because you're asking about the process. Where do you go in my house? Where won't you go? Not everyone will go up into your attic. Red flag. Right. So I've. If they're not asking about the history of the home. Right. Here's another thing you need to Prepare for your IEP's visit. A lot of them will have an understandably so written in their contract. They're not going to pull out things from underneath your sink, clean out under all your sinks, put it on top. The amount of water damage we have seen underneath people's sinks that led to, you know, serious mold growth behind those vanities would blow your mind. Pull everything up, pull the furniture away from those. They won't remove furniture. They're not going to, you know, open your curtains. So you want to make it as easy as possible for them to do their job well. So, you know, a lot of us have furniture that goes up against a window. Pull that away. Make sure they have space to move around and see everything they need to see.

You mind if I ask a quick question?

Sure.

So I know a lot of people, we, we, me included, you know, rely on the experts. Right. We really hope that they will guide the whole process, and obviously they should. If you're hiring them and. And you're getting the good IEP that you should get. But should we be guiding the IEP too? I've found, in my own experience, I've kind of found things that sometimes an IEP didn't find on my own, or if I feel like if I look back at their process, if I just guided them a little bit more towards things that I was curious about or suspicious about, I might have gotten even more information that would have been helpful. What do you think the process is in trying to guide an iep?

Well, this is why, like I said, there's three key people. You play a really crucial role, and hopefully your IEP is doing either like a. A phone call ahead of time, an intake form, or when they first get there, is sitting down with you for a little bit and is saying, hey, tell me about anything that's happened in this home. What are some areas of concern you want me to pay special attention to? They should be looking at everything, but. Right. You have that knowledge. So it may not be. You know, maybe you. You knew that there was some water issues, but the home has been repainted, and he's not going to know that unless you tell them. Maybe you remodeled. And I've been there, and the contractor found mold and ripped it out because it was less than 10 square feet and rebuilt it back. Well, did they actually remove the mold? Did they just paint over it? So, like, you need to. And be upfront. Like, you need to advocate for yourself. If the Met. If there's no other takeaway here, it's that you need to be your own advocate. I was raised where you defer to the professional.

Yes.

Okay, whatever you say. Like, I try the doctor, the guy, whoever it is, and I am saying that you can do so in a respectful way, but you need to ask questions. If you don't like the answer, push them for. For. For more explanation. If you're saying, you know what? I do want you to just test that corner, whether it's a wall cavity or surface. Like, I. I just. I don't feel right about it. I would like you to do it. I understand that you may not feel that this wall is problematic for whatever reason, but. But I'm telling you, there's some history here, or I feel weird in this room. There's something going on in this room. Trust your gut is the other takeaway here. You. You are the one who knows this house better than anyone, and they really should welcome that, that this is kind of a collaboration. And most IEPs who. Who are trying to do a good job want. Want your involvement and, you know, feedback. Does that answer your question?

Definitely. I mean, instinct plays such a big role. I know it can be kind of hard and overwhelming for people because every time I feel like you call an iep, it's your first time calling an IP or this is all brand new to you, and you're just trying to figure it out, but your instinct really does play a big piece. And, yeah, it's super important. If I could go back, I would be a little bit more forceful in saying, please look behind here. But, no, that's. That's great insight. Thank you.

Yeah. So definitely read through this before you call, because the more, you know, ahead of time, you're going to be able to weed out the people who aren't going to give you the kind of inspection you want. Right. Because we talk about everything, too. Like reports. Side note, not to go on a tangent here. You need to ask them about what's included in the report. You want pictures you want test Results? I've had IEPs people call me are like holding their Aehr test results hostage, basically. Well, no, you paid for that. Don't just trust them when they say, oh, it looks good. Like, ask to see the report that should be included. Your inspection report that you get should have the pictures. It should have detailed information outlining what they saw. And then, you know, as a side note, make sure you're talking to about the fees up front. Some of them charge like a base fee for so many hours and then each additional hour is so much money. And then they really shouldn't be able to tell you ahead of time how many tests. And that's because they can't determine that until they get to your house and they see what's going on. But you should have an idea of how much each air test would cost or how much each surface sample would cost ahead of time. They just wouldn't, shouldn't be able to tell you ahead of time exactly how many. Because if they say, oh, I'm only going to take five samples before they even show up, well, what if there's eight spots that you're like concerned about? So, so that, that can be tricky. But again, that resource is there for you and I suggest you, you know, definitely check it out. Are you back? Are you seeing my vetting the IP screen again?

Yeah, we got you.

Okay, so that is there again for you. So let's switch gears for a moment and let's talk about now you fired this, this IP to come in. They're going to go through your whole house. They're going to give you a report. There's probably been some testing and they're going to make a recommendation of any areas that need to be remediated or might need to be opened up that, that are problematic. So now it's time to hire the remediation company. This is the part that gets really stressful for people because remediation is not regulated and there's a reason why you want to take the time to hire a good one. So if you remember I said, you know, mold spores, it's 4 million penicillium spores, but on a postage stamp, mold fragments. When mold breaks apart, breaks into these tiny fragments, it is estimated that for every one mold spore, there are up to 500 mold fragments. So 500 mold fragments for every one mold spore. So if we go back to that postage note, that's 4 million mold spores. That means there's 2 billion mold fragments. This stuff is small. It's Microscopic and you often can't see what's there. Molds can produce mycotoxins, which are secondary byproducts that are extremely dangerous to your health. They are essentially a poison that's designed to kill other living things. Sometimes you get caught in the crosshairs of that. There's also bacteria that can be problematic and it's byproducts. So these things are small. And while remediation is not rocket science, it does require an understanding of how these pollutants grow and move throughout an environment. It's understanding air currents and how to build proper containment and other engineering controls like pressure, so that you, when you remediate, don't make the problem worse. So, you know, as I said, these things are small. To give you just a little bit more perspective. A single strand of human hair is 70 microns. Okay, so you can look at your hair and you can see it. The human eye can't see anything typically below 50, 40 microns. So hair is 70. The human eyes can see 40 microns. Once you get below that, you're going to need a microscope. Mold spores are 3 to 10 microns and they can be bigger or smaller mold fragments, 0.3 microns. Mycotoxins can attach to those fragments and other things that are just as small. Here's the problem. Anything that's smaller than 10 microns at 10 microns can penetrate deep into your lungs. When it's smaller than 2.5 microns, it can cross directly into your blood brain barrier. So these things are small and they pose a health hazard. So you want to make sure that all those little particles aren't making their way out into your environment. So the people who are doing the work, you want to make sure they know what they're actually doing. So remediation, guys, is not regulated. It's not regulated. I know I've said this before. At the federal level, it is not even really regulated. At the state level it is the wild wild west. So much of what happens out there is insufficient meaning it doesn't go far enough, doesn't really take care of the problem, and in some cases it's actually unsafe. So I want to leave you just with a couple more analogies. They're not really analogies, but ways to think about how these things move throughout your environment and why you don't want to just jump in there and start ripping walls out yourself or hire the first company who can come. I my daughter, when she was in preschool, it was St. Patrick's Day and they had green Glitter on the floor. Now, if you're a parent, you know, you probably like cringe when you see glitter because you're going to find it all over your house. And I thought, well, this isn't bad. It's at school, but, you know, it's on her shoes and they sit down on the floor. I kid you not. By that night, my baby, who didn't even go to preschool, I found green glitter in his diaper. So mold spores move throughout your environment, those fragments the same way. So imagine glitter. Not a perfect analogy, but you get that sense. Or if you're making, you know, toast and you burn the toast, you can smell it through the whole house within like two minutes. And that's because of the air currents in your home and how air moves throughout your environment. And you know, these mold spores and fragments like to hitch along for the ride. So you want to make sure that you're not having a remediation company who's exposing the rest of your home and your belongings to these microscopic pollutants. So I want to do a quick psa. I'm not going to get into it. Just say no to bleach, folks. The EPA have updated the recommendations finally to no longer recommend bleach as part of routine cleanup. You will still see people recommending that it is. Bleach is effective on hard and non porous things like tile or glass. It is not effective on porous and semi porous materials like your drywall. You. If a landlord is saying, we're just going to put some bleach on your drywall, no, the drywall needs to be replaced. And that's because bleach will remove the color and it will give the appearance that it's gone, but it doesn't necessarily get that microflora that's left behind. Right? And here's another thing. If that doesn't convince you, bleach is over 90% water. When that chlorine evaporates, which happens very quickly, you've left behind a lot of water. And what does mold need to grow? And bacteria. They need water and moisture. So don't. There are better options. It's a just say no to bleach. You know, if your grandpa is like, just bleach it. Say thank you for the advice, grandpa, and you know, change the conversation maybe. So here's another way I want you to think about this. That it took me a long time to explain to people just how crazy the remediation business is. And so I came up with this analogy about how remediation is not like buying a burger. And that's because I want you to think about, you know, your favorite chain fast food place. If you went to that restaurant in Florida and you went in Alaska, you're going to pretty much get the same thing, right? It's going to have the bun's going to be pretty much the same. The burger, the special sauce, the lettuce, tomato, tiny onions, whatever, is going to be the same in Florida as it is in Alaska. But remediation is not like buying a burger. Okay. It would be like if I went to this chain restaurant in Florida and I ordered a burger, but I got a taco. And then I went to that same chain restaurant in Alaska and I ordered a burger, but this time I got some chicken nuggets. Yes, both times you got food, but you didn't get a burger. Remediation is the same way. Because if I in Florida hire a company to remediate my home, that could look wildly different than the company I hire in Alaska. You don't even have to go across the country. I could call five remediation companies in Virginia right now and I promise you I'll get five different solutions. It could be we're just going to fog your house. That's it. You don't need to do anything. Oh, we're just going to, you know, rip it out and we'll put some of this paint or encapsulate over it and you'll be fine. It could be, well, we're going to set up containment and you know, we're going to do some wiping and then we'll be fine. Or it can be, you know, full engineering controls and containment and proper pressure and full ppe. So it is not regulated. Right. You wouldn't tolerate that from a fast food restaurant who's giving you, you know, you'd stop going there eventually. Remediation is not like buying a burger. So when people say remediation, I always go remediation. Because what does that mean? It can mean a lot of different things. I'm not sure if that was helpful, but I wanted to throw that in there. Okay, so this, and I know we're getting low on time. I put this in here. I don't like so many words. You may want to screenshot this. Here are some key phrases from the IICRCS 520 that really reiterates that remediation is about removal. I'll say that again. Remediation should be about removal. Not about killing, not about covering up, not even about denaturing. It's about removal. And so these are some handy little phrases for your landlord, your spouse, the contract, whoever that I have found are helpful with for people. So it says here that, you know, the first one, the physically removing the mold is the primary means of remediation. Right. Attempts to kill or encapsulate or inhibit mold growth is, you know, generally inadequate. All right, the next one talks about, again, removal is important. You don't want to just paint over that. I know some of you have had landlords or contractors who just want to throw some paint over it. It's trapped behind there. Don't worry, you can't get out. Well, guess what? Encapsulates can fail. And it's far more costly than to remove that and fix it. Porous building materials. Here's one that a lot of runners like drywall insulation, ceiling tile, should be removed. You can't clean it off those porous materials. It needs to be replaced. Same thing with using antimicrobials and fungicides and coatings and sealants during remediation. If you are going to use that, it can be after the area has been cleared through that post testing we talked about. Okay, but you want to make sure that the area is actually free from that microbial growth before you do any of those additional things, if that's something you decide to do. And again, this comes from the ICRC as 520 standards for professional mold remediation. So what does a good remold remediation company do? So we talked about, it follows at a minimum those standards. Again, those standards are optional. And I want to encourage you because we don't have time for this talk is David Merrick. He gives a talk for the summit on mold Remediation Basis six. It's amazing. He actually takes you through each of the steps. He's got these great visuals and graphics. He has like a hall of shame. Watch that after you watch this if you're planning to remediate, because you will see. Okay, here are the steps that I'm looking for. So when you get the contract, when you're. When you're talking with remediation company, you can see where it lines up and where it doesn't. So the good remediation company will also follow the recommendations by that IEP and then match their work to it. Okay, so again, it's those three key people in any remediation project. Again, the focus is on removal and not killing anyone who's going to rely on like harsh chemicals. They're not needed. Or you Know even like, well, we're just going to fog it. We don't need to open up your walls. Well, for starters, you got to fix the moisture source. Where's the moisture source? A lot of the time behind these walls, behind the tile, underneath the floor. So as much as I wish there was some easy spray or fog for you, it's not that simple. Right. You want to remove it because dormant mold is also still a health hazard. And here's another thing. You want to read this contract. I'm going to talk about contracts in just a minute as we're wrapping up. But you want it written in the contract that if they fail that post remediation verification that they're going to come back to your house and they're going to either re clean or you know, re remediate an area at no cost to you. Right. So this is why you're working with your IEP ahead of time. You want to be clear on that endpoint so that that company knows, hey, it's in my best interest to get this right the first time as much as possible because I don't want to have to come back and miss out on other clients because they're now having to re clean or redo something for free. So big takeaway. Again, there's another resource here that you can click on. Remediation is not regulated. The training and skill sets vary greatly. It is really the wild wild west out there. But that doesn't mean you can't navigate it because you can and that's why we're providing you these resources. There are good companies out there. It's just going to take some time to find them. So how do you do that? You can start with Again, these are starting points. The IICRC website. Make sure you get quotes from at least three different companies. Don't just trust that your neighbor hired company X. You know, talk to several companies, get, get some feedback from them. Get the quote, compare, lay the contracts out side by side. See what you're dealing with. Ask for proof that they're properly insured. This is a big thing. I'm not going to get into details, but I write about it in the 10 must ask questions when vetting a remediation company. So you're going to want to click into that. That's the companion to that other one I showed you. Make sure that they're properly insured. You would be shocked the number of remediation companies who don't carry proper insurance, which puts you at risk and a whole cascade of other Information, you're going to read every part of the contract, especially the fine print. This is super important. I have seen contracts say at the end that we only guarantee our work will pass visual inspection. That means that they're only going to come back if it still looks dirty. So you could have your IEP come in and do air sampling and surface sampling or whatever and say, wow, there's still a lot of, there's still stuff going on here. And they'll be like, well, it looks clean. Sorry, we're not coming back. So you're going to read the fine print and you're going to ask these questions on the website and I'm going to give you in a slide coming up here a little bit more about contracts because it, it's super important. But sometimes this is a heartbreaking truth. The only thing worse than no remediation is bad remediation. And that's because when you go to remediate, you can sometimes make a situation worse. I am not advocating, to be clear, for you to stay at home and just not remediate, you need to fix the source. What I'm saying is take the time to find the company and the people who are going to do it. Right. I'll give you another story. I watched my neighbor, she called me and said, oh my God, my son sleeps in the basement. And I thought it was just teenage boy smell, but she's like. I was pulling laundry and I realized the whole wall actually had like a water staining and some mold starting to grow. And I said, okay, do not touch it. Because I knew what, what was behind the wall was probably a lot greater than what she was even seeing. And there was, there was a lot of mold that I could see. Once they pulled back that dresser, I said, do not touch it. She's like, well, I'm just gonna call. She panicked. I'm gonna call the, the builder and I want them to fix it now. They sent over a guy that night with zero protection on with a KN95 mask. So probably what you've been, you know, maybe wore to the doctor's office sometime the last few years. This guy starts ripping stuff out. He's not protecting himself. He's not really protecting the environment. He actually made a hole in the bedroom wall that went into the adjoining room. The adjoining room was their H vac system. So now all those moldy spores or spores and fragments and everything else, now there's a direct pathway to the H vac unit. And guess where all that air is going throughout the rest of your house. And he's taking stuff out, trash bags that aren't being wiped and zipped. And they're just laying there. And he finally said to her at the end, yeah, that was a bit over my head. But it's gone now. No, like the, the exposure risk there by not taking the time to, to do it, create could create potential problems. So make sure that the people you hire take that moment and do it right. So a note about contracts. You want everything in writing. I have seen people get contracts through text message. Like, no, like, I'm not talking where they send the PDF. I'm telling the guy typed out the scope of work in a text message. No, you want it in a written contract. Don't rely on what they've told verbally. We had someone call, change their foundation a couple weeks ago. They told me that they follow the S520. I said, okay. She's like. But within two hours, it was clear that they didn't because, like, the containment had holes in it and rips. It was falling down. They were just. They're coming in and out. The workers aren't protected. They sat down on my couch. I said, okay, let's look at your contract. It didn't say anything about that. If it's not in the contract, it doesn't count. Get it in writing. You want to see, and I'm not going to read all these. Ideally a diagram in there. A lot of them use a program anyways, for insurance purposes. That will make out a diagram of what the area is, where containment is going to go. You want to see that diagram? Where are they venting the pressure? You want to see, you know, the exact extent of the scope of work, how the materials are going to be removed, how the workers are going to protect it. Are they building like a second decon chamber? How is that old drywall or tile being moved out of the containment and then out of your home? You don't want to risk cross contaminating because they have to walk up a flight of stairs and out your front door. And so you want as many details as possible. This is another reason why having your IEP write the scope of work is helpful because it's about protecting you. There's lots, lots more things here I want to touch one more time on that post. Remediation verification. It should say in the contract, when remediation is finished and you bring in your IEP to post test, all three of you should agree ahead of time. What is a pass versus what is a fail? Meaning if it shows, you know, five spores of stachybotrys in there or three spores or once. What does that mean? Is that a pass? Does that mean you reclaim? Does that mean you know, you want to be in writing ahead of time, clear on what your end point is? So get it in writing. What, passing or failing? And again, that should be determined by your iep, not your remediation company. Don't make the same mistake I did. And I trusted you, this guy, to do both. And then we had to redo the whole area. Some red flags when hiring because. I'm sorry, I know we're just about out of time. A remediation company. You want. I said I included the example again. There was that remediation company who said they're only going to pass visual inspection. No, move on. This has happened to me. You ask a question about the process and they answer with how many years you've been in the profession. No, don't tell me you've been in the profession for 25 years. Can you answer my question? I. Why are they deflecting? Why aren't they answering you? Okay, they rely on harsh chemicals. Maybe they, you know. Oh, I have this great cleaner. It's going to kill everything. Okay, ask to see that material safety data sheet. You shouldn't need harsh chemicals. And mold is a. Remediation is about removal. So you want to get that information from. Well, why are you choosing to use that? Can you help me understand the process again, those companies that promise no demolition or magic sprays or fogs can be used in place of actually removing the source, the source of water damage. Maybe best to keep looking. If they say things like it's just a little bit, it can't hurt you. It's not black, don't worry about it. I can tell by looking at it it's not a dangerous mold. Oh, I had this one. It's trapped behind the wall, so you're fine. No mold behind a wall can impact your house or the, you know, sometimes. And you'll see a lot of these too coming from like apartment complexes or rental properties. Well, we stopped the water source, so that's all you need to do. That's great that you stopped the water source, but now you need to remove any mold growth or bacteria that may have formed as a result of that. And point you, we have so many great talks on the summit. You know, we have IEPs like Brian Carr and Corey Levy, but some of the, the talks focus more on mold remediation. David Merrick, the one I mentioned earlier, check that talk out. Michael Rubino has two talks and Michael Pinto has a great talk sheet. Is going to give you some more information. Sometimes though, ultimately guys, remediation doesn't make sense or is out of your control. And this can be for a variety of reasons. Rental properties are hard. You don't have often control over how the landlord is going to do it. And so, you know, sometimes you may choose to move on to a place because you know the landlord isn't going to handle well. Maybe you don't have the finances to do a proper remediation or access to the right people. So there are things to think about. I know this is not easy. I know it's not cheap. I want to make sure though that you get that healthy home. Making as few mistakes as possible because I wasted a lot of money hiring and trusting the wrong people. Just some quick mistakes that I sometimes see. Again, don't use the same company to inspect and test. Don't skip that post testing at the end. You paid a lot of money to remediate. Make sure it's actually gone. Mold is microscopic, so just because it looks clean doesn't mean it's gone. I can't tell you the number of times that an area, it turns out they didn't go far enough. They needed to remove more of the wall and once they did, they found more mold hidden behind there. You know, your, your post remediation verification that testing is another guardrail for you. Do not think that renovation is the same as remediation. We have some resources on our website about that. Yes. When you remediate, you're pulling a lot of that stuff out. But you can't just think, well, I'm not going to remediate. I'm just going to tear everything out of the bathroom and build it back anyway. No, you want to take the proper steps to safely remove any mold or water damage, bacteria that may have formed. Don't think that your home inspector, the person you hire when you're buying, is the same thing as an ap. Those are different skill sets and you may choose to bring in both. Why? Because it's going to save you money in the long run and especially during that inspection period. It's going to help your negotiating power. Right? You want to know this isn't cheap to remediate. So if you can, you know, negotiate money back or maybe you choose not even to go through with the purchasing the property, you want that information ahead of time. And then a tip, verify with the crew the day of that you're on the same page. Even the best remediation companies. I had a company come and I made the contract. The people there go through with me that day. Everything was in the contract and I actually caught an area where they were trying to take a shortcut and I said well that's not what's in my contract. So go through with the company the day of final thoughts research before you react so important our website. There are other resources out there as well watch these summit talks. Lots of good information because at the end of the day no one's going to care about your health or your home as much as you. The other thing I want to reiterate because you may have a lot of anxiety about this is about progress over perfection. You're going to make mistakes. I made mistakes. I still make mistakes. It's, it's. And things aren't going to go perfectly. Something's going to happen during mediation and that's okay. But really become your own advocate. Ask questions. Don't be afraid to push for answers. Don't be afraid to get a second or third or fourth opinion and at the end of the day give yourself grace. This is hard, it's overwhelming. And do the best that you can given your unique situation and the resources you have at hand. So again there's our information on you know all the ways you can reach changetheirfoundation.org you can always reach out to us directly as well. But Jamie, are there any questions or thoughts? I know I kind of covered a lot.

No, I mean first thought is I wish I had all of these slides before I remediated my last job because I've even the post remediation testing and confirming that in the contract is so important but unfortunately I have another project coming up so this will definitely be put into play but super insightful and it's just never underestimate the power of a strong mama because your research skills on this has so insightful. Incredible And I just appreciate the time. Thank you.

And thank you. Well, you know, if there's no other questions I guess I just want to say to everyone listening, listen, you got this. And we appreciate you taking the time to to watch our summit talks. We hope you, you listen to others and that you get a lot of important information and always feel free to you know Jamie and I really care about what we're doing and you know you can always reach out to us and, and let us know what your thoughts were or you know sometimes it just helps to have someone who has understands it so.

Absolutely.

All right, well, we'll see you next time, guys. Bye.