Interview about the book "Cancer: The Journey from Diagnosis to Empowerment"

Good day and welcome to Medicine and Health with Dr. Paul Anderson. That's me, I'm Dr. Paul coming to you from Seattle, Washington. It's almost sunny, so it's almost sunny Seattle here on the 15th of October. If you're listening live, on the podcast you can listen anytime you want. Today we are going to do something we haven't done in a few months because of life and schedules and whatever. But we have an interview today with Cameron Steele, who's co-founder, co-owner of CTR Radio Network, the network I'm coming to you on right now. And today we're going to talk about the new book and cancer in general and whatever else comes up in the next hour. So welcome, Cam. Oh, I can't hear you. I just— your volume's really low.

How's that? Is that better? Can you hear me now?

I can hear you now, real mute. That's weird. You were full volume before.

I don't know what happened. Let me just check something out here.

Okay.

Yeah, we're good.

Oh, there you go. All right.

There you go. Okay.

Awesome. Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I wanted it to be a 2-way interview, right?

So, well, you know, that always helps, the 2-way interview. And, uh, and thanks for your patience there. I don't know what happened there, but, um, You can hear me now, and that's what's important.

That's right.

Thank you for welcoming, uh, welcoming me to your show. And, uh, it's been a while since we've actually done one of these, and I've, uh, I'm quite excited about it because it is talking about your, uh, your new, your new book. And I'm thrilled that you asked me to come on and, and, uh, interview you today about it, because I've been looking at over the period of time between your first book and this book and the Growth has been just phenomenal. I mean, this book has been wild, wildfire.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's been really rewarding to see. And we launched the book just about a week ago, about 10 days ago. And it did really good in the launch. And, and, you know, now the idea is just to keep getting the message out to people, it's available and what it's about, etc. And, uh, I think, uh, people should know, so you have a, you have a connection to the book. Um, oh, I did. And your, your wife Divindya, uh, was one of the, uh, editors that I, uh—

Oh, is this the one she was working on?

Yeah, that's the one.

Okay, okay.

She did some content editing for me, and kind of about a third of the way through the writing process when it You know, when the writer thinks they've got everything in there, but they need a second opinion. So she really added some great comments and had me look at some things that either, you know, maybe I wanted to say differently, but, but more of it was content-oriented and, you know, expand on these things or maybe talk more about this. And that was really helpful. So I don't, I don't think you have a copy of it. Neither of you do yet. I just got mine. Uh, but I'll send you guys one.

And, uh, oh, that'd be fantastic.

She's in the acknowledgments part.

So, oh my gosh, she is gonna love that.

You're, you're not in the acknowledgments, but I wanted to point out that you're, you know, you're related.

I already get it. I already get it on. I already get enough acknowledgement with the network and stuff. But Divindya, you know, she is, she is working behind the scenes a lot. So she doesn't get a lot of credit where credit is actually due because You're right. You know, she did some work on your book. She does their website. She does— I mean, she is like, you know, she's a superwoman. That's what I would say.

So yeah, so I wanted to point that out.

And, uh, well, thank you.

So yeah, in the— if, if people are watching on the live or on the live podcast, the— in the gallery of books here, so there's the first cancer one and there's There's the one with Jack Canfield, and then the new one's right in the middle there. So I pulled one down. And yeah, if you look in the acknowledgments, there's 2 people thanked for editing, and Vindya is one of them.

Oh, Paul, that is so nice of you.

What I'm really waiting for is their— the advanced copies they sent were paperbacks, which are great. And that's what you can get on Amazon. But I'm waiting for— I'm getting some hardcovers. So I'm going to give her A nice one. I'll give you guys a nice one. How about that?

Well, that'll be awesome. Thank you. Well, you know, I look at your background, then I look at mine. And I'm like, okay, well, I got some cleaning to do.

Well, I said it looks very studious, though. That looks like— You did.

You did.

A student's apartment or something.

You know, people can't see, you know, what's in front of me, of course. And what's on my— what's over here, we got a closet. And I actually have another desk with a a very similar studio setup.

Yeah.

So it's Studio A and Studio B, you know.

Yeah.

But anyways, yeah, it's just fantastic. And I appreciate you doing a shout out to Divindia like that.

Yeah, yeah.

That's very nice of you. So let's get on with it though, because I do want to talk to you about this book. It's had— it's getting to get some— it's got some wild reviews already. I am positive of that. Even though it's just come out, people are anxious to get it. So I guess I kind of want to just look at, you know, we've known each other for a long time. And I've often said to you that, you know, you should write a book, which you have done, you know, and because the information you have in talking to other naturopathic doctors, by the way, and just give you some kudos here. You're like the naturopathic doctor's doctor. You know, every doctor I've ever talked to, and a lot of them have podcasts with us, all say the same thing about you, Paul, that they cannot— it's, it's, it's, it's incredible, the amount of information you have and that you give forward to all these other naturopathic doctors to help with their clients and help people like myself who You know, we go through things physically, emotionally, mentally, but you've always got some kind of wisdom to pass along or some kind of treatment that's going to work for people. And so having this book written out here is just fantastic. So let's get to it. What is the motivation for these books besides everybody telling you to write a book?

Yeah.

I mean, you got to be motivated to write the book too.

You know, it's not easy. I mean, some people don't like writing at all. I like it. But even if you like writing, it's not easy to do a book and, you know, to— because you have to go through a lot of reflection while you're doing it because you have an idea of what you want in there. And then you, you know, open it up to people like Divindya and like some of the other content editors and for just for feedback to say, hey, does this ring true? You know, because in our heads things sound wonderful when we're thinking them. And sometimes you write them out and it's like, well, that's great, but you Missed like five steps of the process. So I think it's it's a tough thing to do because you really have to sort of let go of it and let let it go out. But I guess you know this book relates a little bit to the original book, which is over my shoulder here. Outside the Box Cancer Therapies. And we when Mark Stengler, Dr. Stengler, and I wrote that one, that was you know a pretty arduous process because it's a very it's written for patients. but it's a very academic type of a book. There's a lot of scientific references and things for other doctors as well. And when we got done with it, you know, that book was out about a year. And I was working, mentoring doctors in our clinic who were treating patients with cancer. And I was, you know, working with the kind of from the top down with patients and their journey and all of that.

Right.

And what I realized was in Outside the Box, we did a reportedly, according to everybody who's reviewed the book, we did a good job of getting into the treatment end of things. You know, what do you do about X, Y, and Z, or what should you avoid or whatever? But what I noticed with the patients that really started to become an idea in my mind was the other side of the equation. It's sort of, it's intangible to a large degree, but it's like the elephant elephant in the room, and that is, what do you do if you just, you get this horrible news that you have— no one wants to hear that they have cancer. And for most people, it really just knocks them off their feet. And some people recover pretty good, other people don't. And that's more than half the battle, how you deal with, you know, the stress of that diagnosis, etc. And how do you go from you know, I'm upset, angry about it, or some people are in denial, or, you know, wherever they're at.

Yeah.

All of it's traumatic. And what you want to do to be the healthiest person you can is go, like the subtitle is, from the diagnosis and whatever that does to you, to being an empowered patient. And so I started really thinking about that and thinking about kind of the headspace that people go through. And while we addressed it a little bit in Outside the Box, I felt this was something that needed its own, uh, needed its own book. So that's what started the whole process, was, uh, looking at that. Yeah.

Well, you know, and you bring up some really good points here because I, I do feel like, um, I, you know, I recently— my mom went through this whole cancer bout and, and stuff like this, and You know, I watched and observed how she handled it. And she handled it pretty optimistically.

Mm-hmm.

You know, she took the steps necessary, and she didn't really address the aspect of what happens if they can't fix it. You know, it was lung cancer, and they found some nodes and stuff like that, or, you know, some things in her lungs, and she able to She was able to get through it, thankfully. But I can't imagine anybody being told how that would feel and how, and, you know, what steps you would take, because it's a life-ending disease. And to think that when you, when a person gets cancer, the first thing I don't know, but I think that most people and including myself, would think, well, how long have I got? Or I gotta fix this. There's got to be a way to fix this.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and so my question is, do you feel like in this journey of this book, do you feel like it's been a lot of the attitude of people wanting to heal it that has helped? Or is it kind of pragmatic? In a way.

Yeah, you know, I think that's something that, you know, like you said, with your experience with your mother, and, you know, we— because cancer affects 1 in 2.5 to 3 people, we all know somebody sometime who's had a cancer diagnosis. And yes, it's true, some people are diagnosed very early, and they have, you know, really remarkable recovery because they catch it so early. Other people are diagnosed very late and it, you know, obviously that doesn't usually turn out so well. So that feeds into the way it hits a person. But I think what I really wanted to get across in the book was, regardless of where you come into it, so you might be diagnosed super early, but it still will freak you out. It doesn't matter if they say, well, we got it early, you know.

Yeah, it's a freaky thing no matter what.

Yeah, it's still cancer, you know, it's still, you know, or know, you got it late.

We can't minimize it for sure.

No, no, it's a traumatic diagnosis. And so what I really wanted to do in the book is regardless of where you come into the diagnosis of cancer, whether early or late or good prospects, bad prospects, that for this, for what we call maybe the mind game or the mental, you know, aspect of it, mental, emotional, and spiritual, you It doesn't matter where you come into it, it affects you the same way. You're going to be either scared or angry or, you know, all the normal human emotions. The important part is, and, and why I tried to kind of tell 2 stories about 2 patients through the book. So there's the how-to part of the book.

Right.

Which is, you know, break it down. What, what do I do to stop being, you know, scared or in denial or whatever? Uh, but then there's, there's a story that weaves its way through the book of 2 patients and Basically, they both started out with the shock of the diagnosis, bad cancers. One chose to say, I'm going to work my way through this and get some help and whatever. And whatever amount of time I got left, I want to be on top of the situation and empowered.

Mm-hmm.

And the other person decided, and it's everyone's decision what they want to do, but the other person just decided, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm angry and I'm just going to stay angry. And that, and that was what they did.

Now we're talking about 2 people in the book here that you described as, uh, you use the stories of Bob and Gaia and, uh, in the book. And I, and, and so with, with the name Bob, um, I have to add some comedy relief to this. Uh, I, first thing I thought of when I saw Bob was Oh well, everything's going to work out. And it's that old Canadian saying, you know, Bob's your uncle. And then I'm thinking of Gaia, and I'm going, well, you know, Gaia's Earth, so let's keep it simple on Earth. I don't know. There's kind of a thing around that for me when I read that. I was like, well, that's very, very astute of him to. Well, those two, but, uh, you know, I'll—

what I'll— never thought of it that way. But, um, interestingly enough, of course, these are actually real people, but they aren't their names, right? And right there, their details are altered enough so no one would know who they are. But of course, um, it turns out, uh, that, uh, because I'm not Canadian, so I don't have that saying. Turns out Bob was the one who really chose to kind of stay in the negative space.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, he was probably one of the most angry people I've ever met. And I don't know what he was like before he had cancer, but it didn't help him at all. And we go through his story. He kind of has a story arc. And then Gia is a, composite of 2 different people, but they're very similar. And the bottom line is they both really started out unhappy with the diagnosis. No one wants it. And they were, you know, they were knocked on their heels and all their plans, you know, kind of put on pause.

Yeah.

But she actually decided, it's okay that I feel bad, but I need to work through this because I got a lot of work to do. You know, I'm going to be doing treatment, or I'm doing, you know, whatever they're doing, I'm not going to feel great for a while. So I need to get my mind in the right place. And, you know, one of the things that actually a really nice kind of full circle thing that happened was because of the kind of underlying message in the book, I sent it to a friend of mine who you've had on your program a long time ago, Dr. Bruce Lipton.

Oh, yes. Bruce Lipton. Yes. Wonderful man. Wonderful man.

Wonderful guy and author of Biology of Belief and The Honeymoon Effect, a number of other books. But, and he's right now, he's just really on fire on YouTube and online.

Oh, yeah.

Doing a lot of stuff. But his, The Biology of Belief is all about the fact that, which is part of the point of the book, your circumstances are what they are. and your genes are sort of coded the way they are, but what happens to your circumstances and what happens around your genes are really what decide the outcome that happens.

Mm-hmm.

And that's sort of a grand simplification, but that's sort of the idea. Well, in this book, and part of what he wrote about in the foreword was that, you know, these 2 people that I describe are sort of the, you know, the yin and the yang of, you know, accessing your epigenetics and what you can control in a good way or not a good way. And so that's what I was really going for. So it, you know, the idea of using those 2 people's stories was an idea I had, I wasn't quite sure about it. And when I met with the editors at the publishing company early on, they said, no, you need to make sure you put that in there because it makes it very human. And it gives us something tangible to hold on to. And then if the chapter is about, you know, dealing with A, B, and C, it's not so clinical. It's really more real, you know, and why would I want to choose to, you know, become empowered as a patient, et cetera. So that's, that's kind of the evolution of, of the ideas.

Well, you know, it's interesting because when you talk about, um, these stories like that and, and, um, the, the realism of Bob and, and, uh, you called her Gia, is it Gia?

Yeah.

Okay, Gia. Um, it's interesting because you have to, in order for people, I think in order for people to understand something more so, coming to that approach of, of humanizing it and, and giving them a taste of reality of somebody that is really angry. Because a lot of people would be angry. And then looking at it from Gia's perspective to say, you know, it's okay for me to be angry, but I can't stay like this because this is not going to help me.

Mm-hmm.

You know, 2 very different approaches to, to how to deal with, with, with cancer. And I'm sure there's other approaches that we haven't even addressed, but 2, 2 very different approaches. On how to, on how to deal with that. And so which leads me to, of course, the, the, the big question is, in, in the stories, why did you— what did— how did you counsel the patients? What do you do to counsel the patients who, you know, want to share their, their story and their shock of their diagnosis? And how did they, um, react to saying, yes, I'm going to share, I'm going to— the, the— I want, I want you to share these stories?

Yeah, the, um, you know, the one of the things I didn't know how it would turn out was, um, there's, you know, most of the chapters except for 2 are, are in They're very much in order, you know, they go from the beginning of the diagnosis to working through it and all that. There's 2 kind of special chapters, they're very special. One is about children with cancer, pediatric cancers, which is sort of its own little, you know, chapter that's very important but unique. The other is a chapter made up of interviews with people who either had cancer or were a, say, an adult child of a patient with cancer or parents of some children with cancer. And I asked them initially, and I didn't know if they would want to, you know, participate or share, you know, 'cause it's a very personal thing, you know, when you go through it with, with a loved one or yourself. And they, they all said yes, which was really amazing. And I thought very brave. So what I did is the way I structured it just to kind of keep it flowing was I interviewed everybody and asked the same question so that, you know, when you read the different perspectives, you're reading it in the same order, basically.

From the same— from the exact same question.

Yeah. So it's sort of like an outline. And the nice thing, I was so pleased that they did it, was it really tells you if you're, let's say, because the book is written both for patients with cancer, but also their loved ones and caregivers and, you know, supporters. So it's for both sides of the fence. So let's say you're not a person with cancer, but you're, you know, your brother was just diagnosed, or, you know, uh, heaven forbid, you know, your brother's child was just diagnosed or something.

Mm-hmm.

You can go without being too in the face of your brother, and you can read these people's, you know, uh, recounting of what was good for people, to say to them and what they didn't want people to say, what the best way to support somebody who's going through it is. What would that person who's been through the journey want everyone in the world to know?

Yeah. And, you know, I'm going to interrupt you because I just realized that what you're saying right now is so valuable in so many ways. And I really want people to get this book because Just that alone, Paul, you know, when we know someone— in fact, I just remembered now, I know somebody who's got breast cancer, a barista friend of ours. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and she's got to work through this. And, you know, I did not realize, I didn't know, and I don't know how many people know this or actually have the answer to this, but how do you approach someone To say, I'm here for you, because saying something like, I'm here for you, is, it's kind of cookie-cutter response.

Yeah.

You know, and I, and I feel like, I feel like there's got to be a better response than, I'm here for you, or, you got this, or—

Right.

You know, uh, because this is— because it's such a traumatic thing. That it's such a good question to say, how would you want people to respond to you? How do you— what's the— I mean, it's all relative to the individual, of course, I get that. But is there a common theme that you saw within the paradigm of that question of how would you like people to respond to you during cancer?

Yeah, I think you're— as you say, that's probably one of the most critical things both from the point of view of the patient, but also we as, you know, loved ones or friends don't want to say the wrong thing either. You know, we don't meaningfully, you know, say the wrong thing. Sometimes we say the wrong things no matter what. I mean it. But I think there's two— so in that chapter, of course, each patient or caregiver really gets into the nitty-gritty of, you know, this is a This is not the way people with cancer want to hear that, and this is a better way, or— and they give examples and, you know, they go into it. But I think there's a couple of, um, there's a couple of big picture sort of concepts I think that are good to remember, just, you know, from the top down. One is, um, you have to first base your response to them and their disease.

Right.

First thing you have to do is think through your own feelings about it, because we— that's part of what I go into in the book is we have our own feelings that we don't want to project onto somebody. So you might go to somebody and it may be a darker feeling for you that they have cancer and you project that onto the way you talk to them. And you have to sort of take—

Right.

You know, that's your feelings and those are important, but you don't want to project that on them. The other thing is the, the level of your, you know, relationship. So if it's your spouse, or a really close friend, or a, you know, brother or sister, it's going to be a different level you interact on than, you know, someone you know, but, you know, not that well. So you have to kind of gauge those personal things. What I call that is, that's your inside lens of, those are my issues. You know, that's all my stuff. But then the other side of it is, one theme that ran through, whether it was a parent with a child with cancer, or, you know, an adult person with their parent, or the, you know, cancer patient themselves, they appreciate that you don't know how to talk about them having cancer. And what they mostly, you know, one big thread was they don't they don't want you to minimize the fact that, uh, you know, either that you understand, because you really don't unless you've had cancer.

Yeah.

And even one of them said, you know, if you've had cancer, but you're not going through the same stuff that I was, you, you know, you, you can relate more than the average person, but it's not the same, you know.

Yeah.

So, um, the biggest thing was sort of taking a step back and And kind of letting go of your anxiety over the conversation. Think about how close you are anyway. And then being, being positive, but what they all talked about was being action, you know, action-oriented. So as opposed to saying, oh, you know, you got this, don't worry about it. Or, you know, gee, I'm really sorry, or whatever, because that happens.

Yeah.

Saying, you know, I honestly, I don't know what words to use to express to you how I feel. You know, I know how I feel. I don't know the best way to express that. But what I do want you to know is that I can be here for you in these ways. And, you know, and so not just saying, hey, I'm here for you, and then walking away.

Right.

But actually saying, you know, I can be here for you if you need someone to walk the dog, or I can be here for you if you need someone to take you to an appointment now and then, or whatever, you know. But being proactive and, you know, putting an action to it and not assuming that you understand something that we really don't if we don't have cancer.

Yeah, unless you've had cancer, you really don't understand. It's like the same thing. It's the same thing with parents that don't have children giving people with children advice.

Exactly. Yeah.

You and I both know that one.

Yeah, it's, it's, that doesn't end well either.

Yeah. So, you know, well, so I'm looking back on my response to this individual. And I, when I remember her saying, oh, I've got breast cancer. My response to it, if I'm remembering correctly, and I wish Devindia was here because she was with me, and I'm probably gonna muck this up. But I remember saying to her, well, if there's anything you need, or anything you want, or you want some help with, I mean, you know, let us know, is what I said. And then we bumped into her a couple of weeks later because she had the— she had the surgery and—

Mm-hmm.

Still got the cancer. She had her breast removed, I think. And, you know, but I think that the response was, well, as you know, I think that I said, well, oh, I said, oh, I thought because I was missing— I misunderstood her. I thought when she was going for the surgery, they were removing the cancer and it was to be done. But apparently she still got the cancer. And I, I said, oh, I said, I didn't know that. I said, well, how are you? I just went into how are you feeling? How are you? How are you feeling about everything? Because honestly, I don't know what I could do. I mean, yeah, could I walk your dog? Well, you don't have a dog. Could I get you some groceries? Yeah, I could. But at the same time, my mind is racing going through, well, if I get her groceries, that means she's not getting exercise. And maybe she needs to get exercise to help the cancer. And I mean, you got this whole thing, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Yeah.

When you have these, these thoughts going through on how you— because you want to be there for your friend or your lover or your patient or your, your spouse or whoever that you're, you're close with.

Yeah.

But the mind takes over. And so I just finally just said in my head, in the split seconds of all of this happening, I said, well, I said, you know, if there's anything you need, you let me know because I'm happy to help in whatever way I can.

Yeah.

I mean, that was my response to it. end of the day. And I, you know, I think that she reached out to Devindia not too long ago to go have a bite to eat or whatever. But, you know, it's, it's, it's so crucial. And I think that what we're talking about here just doesn't apply to cancer, but it can apply to anything.

Oh, yeah.

You know, is, is, is life-threatening, because to me, you know, okay, you got the flu, or you got, you know, you're sick or whatever. Yeah, let me know if you need anything. I can bring over some soup, you know, something like that. But something life-threatening like cancer, uh, bringing over soup doesn't seem to be enough somehow, you know.

You know, yeah. And that's, I think, you know, the way you described it is the, um, that's the reason that I said, you know, one of the first things to do is kind of check your own response because, you know, you did it all internally and Didn't say all that out loud, obviously, you know. But not everyone is that good at that, you know. So you do have to be careful that, because your mind will race, and you'll think, oh my gosh, you know, what if I do this? Or what, you know. And, and, and one of the, one of the things that I did find kind of universally was just to preface the statement, you know, first, take a deep breath and know that you've got your own feelings about it. Next, Just, just saying, look, you know, obviously, you know, I care about you. I'm, you know, really sorry to hear this news. And I really don't have other good words to tell you other than, you know, I care about you and, and I, you know, want to be there for you. If you really know the person enough, though, and, you know, if they're early in it, and they're still in shock, that might be all you need to do.

Yeah.

But, you know, as things unfold, you might say, because there's— and in the book we get into this, and, you know, there's this sort of arc of the, um, diagnosis and the shock. And if they're there, they're not hearing much of anything. So you just want to be really, you know, straightforward. No, that's right. But when they then get past the shock, and then they go into— they can be in denial or more, you know, angry or sad or, you know, whatever human emotion hits them, they will start to open up and say, my gosh, you know, And I talk about this in the book, that suddenly they feel, which is true, like now they have another job, the job called being a cancer patient.

Right.

So, you know, they may be a parent and, you know, have a job at work and all this other stuff. And now they got this whole job of going to appointments and figuring cancer, you know, it's like, wow, I didn't need that. So that's usually when the discussion around You know, either you know them well enough to offer an idea or saying, you know, I know you got a little— you're, you know, you're spinning a lot of plates here. You've got, you know, your kids, you've got work and everything. Is there something that, you know, you're not going to be able to get to around the house?

Yeah.

Or is there some task that, you know, I could just do for you? You know, you know, pick up the laundry or whatever it is. And, and when they get out of the shock phase, usually, that's when their head is spinning, saying, I was already too busy. And now, you know, there's these tasks, I'm just not going to get to this stuff, or if I do, you know, and that can be extremely helpful, just being, you know, not just like, being emotionally there is super important, but—

Yeah.

But being available when, when the reality hits them?

Well, I think you bring up some excellent points there. And that is that, first of all, you talked earlier about, you know, getting out of our own way to try and see how we can be there for somebody. But you bring up some good points, because whether they're single, married, or in a relationship of any kind, there's always tasks that need to happen. And I can't imagine, you know, being diagnosed with cancer and then saying, okay, well, I got to run to the grocery store and buy some food.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, that's— it makes me feel tired just thinking about that. If I had cancer, not only am I thinking about my life and how am I going to survive this or thrive through it or whatever, But I've got to think of all the little things that I that I used to do that now I'm feeling exhausted because I'm getting treatment now, and now I'm feeling really tired, and I can't even pick up a broom to sweep the kitchen floor. And I think this is where you know you brought him some really good advice is what kind of tasks can I do to help you around the house, around the yard with the kids? Do you want the kids? Do you need a break from the kids? Bring them over for a few days, and I'll. and I'll look after them, or, or, or there's a million things we could do. Because I think at the end of the day, every human being wants to try and be of service to somebody somehow.

Yeah.

You know, we're all, we're all good, you know, in our hearts. We all, we all have good in our hearts. We all have good intentions, uh, despite what, you know, is going on in our world. We still have that goodness in us. I truly believe that. And I think it's just a matter of getting that goodness to come out. And if that means that, you know, you can be there for somebody with cancer, to, to help them along, is, is really an awesome way of being of service. And so with that, I want to ask you this question. I know it's not on something that we discussed pre-show. But I do want to ask you, are there Because you are so involved in people with cancer. Is there a place that people can go to, like, say for myself and say, you know what, I got some time on, on, you know, on the weekdays, I've got like 5 hours I can, I can do be of service to somebody. Is there a place for people to go that like myself and say, you know what, I can do some grocery shopping for somebody with cancer, or somebody that needs a ride that has cancer, or, you know?

That's a great question. So there's sort of 2 levels to that. One is, if you happen to know the patients, they usually will— they'll either have their own need, you know, that they can just tell you, I need a ride.

Right.

Or they will be connected to a group where the patient, you know, might not need anything, but they may have people in their group that live alone or, you You know, something like that.

Yeah.

If you don't know anybody, which is, you know, hopefully none of us, you know, do, but obviously that's not reality.

Right.

But let's say you don't know anyone right now, but you got 4 hours during the week you could donate to something. The best way, it's not the only way, but this is the easiest route to find that sort of service, would be to contact your local hospital their oncology department, which is the cancer department. And normally there are— they have hospital-sponsored support groups. And you can either just ask, are there any volunteer opportunities for your, you know, your support groups or for patients directly? And normally they have more opportunities than people know about.

Yeah.

So that's the easiest way. There's other support groups and other avenues, but like I said, unless you know a patient, you're probably not gonna find out about the other ones. Yeah.

Right. Well, this is— that's great advice because I think of all the people out there, like, you know what, and I'm reminded of the help this particularly for me has hit home the past few months. Uh, my, well, my mother, uh, hasn't got cancer right now. Uh, well, at least that's, that's the diagnosis so far, which is great. Uh, she went on a road trip. Long story short, she went on a road trip. I told you about this and, uh, got vasculitis, then a staph infection, then cellulitis. And she ended up in the hospital. They thought they might have to amputate her leg. And I mean, she was away from home.

Mm-hmm.

She was staying at my brother's in Winnipeg. But my brother also works full-time. He happened to know a nurse, Amber, that would come in and help. But the support that she received was just tremendous, just tremendous. You know, whether it was driving her to the hospital, which was an hour away each day, an hour there, an hour back, or, you know, and then getting her checked into the hospital. And, you know, she's coming home this Saturday.

Yeah.

She's flying back to BC and going to check into the local hospital in BC. But this, the support that she, she had was really just amazing. And the kind of support that I'm talking about is, Mom, what do you need? What would you like us to do? How can we help you feel better about being in the hospital? Or these kinds of questions. Those were kind of the questions that were being asked. I said, take a picture of your legs. I want to send it to my doctor friend Paul. I mean, you know, there was all this stuff going on. And no, Mike is— Mike, my brother, he's flying home with her because she can't be alone on the plane and so on and so on. But it's so important that we do feel supported if we're— whether it's cancer, whether it's sickness, whether it's any kind of sickness. Well, cancer is sickness, but I'm talking about non-life-threatening sickness as well, to feel supported somehow. And knowing the right things to say is crucial, I think, to everybody. Because at the same time, I think humans want to just help and be there for people. The humans that are sick often don't want the help because they don't want to be in a vulnerable place and say, no, I got this. I can do it. I can do it.

Yeah.

And so my next question to you is that, did you talk to your patients about that, that aspect of it? Like, you know, when they say, I don't need help, but really they do, but they're just so afraid to ask for help because they don't want to appear vulnerable.

Yeah. The, um, one of the, uh, one of the recurring themes, especially in the first half of the book, is, uh, that, uh, it's okay to, and then fill in the blank.

Right.

Because I think most of us, you know, unless, unless you're debilitated and cannot move, yeah, most people are reticent to ask other people to do stuff because it's like, well, I know they're busy and I don't want to bother them and, you know, all that. And, and I think that's just human nature for most people. And so, you know, we go through a whole list of, you know, I don't want to be a burden, you know. Yeah, I don't want to be a burden or whatever. And it's all this stuff that if you ask the other They'd say, you're, you're actually not a burden. I can, I can take your dog for a walk or I can do whatever, you know? Um, so I think that side of it is, uh, that's on, you know, the, the patient usually has to come to that place where they're okay with it. So if you're— let's, you know, turn the roles around. Let's say you're the friend and not the patient. You just need to understand, you know, in the very beginning they're in shock and they may not know what they need and it's okay to just—

Right.

Just say, I'll check back in with you.

Yeah.

The next step might be, I still feel pretty good as a patient, you know, health-wise, and I don't want to bother people, etc. So, you know, just know if they're, if they're putting that back to you, no, no, don't worry, really. Just, it's always fine to just say, that's cool. You know, I'm glad you're feeling good. You know, if you'd need anything though, I'm just going to check back periodically.

Yeah.

And usually what happens is, um, depending on—

And if you say you're gonna— by the way, people, if you say you're gonna check back with somebody, check back with them. Yeah, don't ghost them. Seriously, if you're gonna say, I'll check back with you, check back, especially when there's— in a situation like this, because that's when I think most— a lot of people that are sick in that place really do want the, the support. But you're saying they don't know really know what they want yet. They just know that they're going to want support. And if you don't check back with them, they may not reach out to you because of where they're at.

Yeah, they might feel like, well, if they check back, great, but I'm not going to impose. And that is true. And that's another human nature thing we talk about in the book because we feel uncomfortable as, say, their friend. And we don't like that they have cancer. We don't know what to do with that. We might even say, I'll check back, but then our brain plays tricks saying, well, it's uncomfortable to talk to them. Oh, I know. I'll go another week or whatever. And yeah, so if you say you're gonna check back, please do. You know, even if 3 times in a row they say, no, I'm doing pretty good, you know.

Yeah.

Just, just throw it out there. The ball's in their court. It's not— you don't have to pressure people. But one of the realities of, of, uh, of a lot of CAN, not all, Not everyone has the same experience, but you hit a point as a cancer patient normally where if you start treatment or you're, you know, let's say that the tumor goes into a real active state and your immune system is all involved and/or there's treatment or surgery or radiation or even if you're doing, you know, no treatment. There come points where the cancer or the treatment suck up all your energy. So what I usually tell like friends and family is imagine the worst sick you've ever felt, like the flu or pneumonia or something. Imagine that you feel like that all the time. Okay.

Yeah.

And that's your baseline and you're like fighting through to do everything that you can. That's how this person feels, especially, you know, if they're getting recovering from surgery, They're in the middle of radiation or chemo or both. You, you know, you really lose the wind in your sails. And that's often then when the patient will say, okay, I give, yes, would you please, you know, could you please pick up some groceries for me?

I can totally relate to that. I don't know if you were aware, but I'm allergic to sulfa. And so I, and penicillin. So, so interestingly enough, I did something stupid. I, I had a hangnail, of all things, a hangnail, and it got infected. They fed me sulfur.

Oh yeah.

And I got home and I was not feeling well. I was just like, oh, I got to go to bed, I got to go to bed. And this was in our other house we were in, and I was in the far, far end of the house and And there was a point where I was so bad, my throat was swelling up. I was having a really hard time breathing. I couldn't call out for help. I could not call out for help. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I gotta struggle to get myself out of bed. And I'm lying on the floor. I'm trying to get sick because I can feel I gotta get sick as well. And I'm sweating bullets. I mean, their sweat was just coming off, and I thought for sure that I was going to kick the bucket right there because I couldn't breathe. Wow, just horrible. Yeah, and um, but there was a moment where when Devindia walked into the room, um, sorry, I uh. I was like, I was like, please help me. I didn't care. Yeah, I just wanted the help. And I, and I'll always remember that whenever somebody is sick and is in a place of, of a life-threatening disease or anything like that, because that help that she came along and gave me was exactly what I needed in that moment to, to get through. And, uh, I, I mean, it was just, it was, it was was a horrific feeling. And I won't forget that because I can't imagine what it's like to be diagnosed with cancer, because cancer is, you know, it is what it is. And when you're having that, going through all the emotions that you talked about, the shock, the denial, the— at some point, there is going to be a reality of going, oh man, I need help. I really need help here. And I want people to understand that if you say you're going to help somebody, help them. Don't ghost them. Just keep checking back. It doesn't matter. Even if it's a note saying, hey, I was just thinking about you. How are you doing? Anything you need? I've got some free time. You need something at the grocery store? I'm heading over there now, or whatever, whatever. Because that will make a difference in their own attitudes of life as well. Because that will give them the space to go, I feel loved, I feel supported. Okay, I can focus on me a little bit.

Yep.

So anyways, I, it just reminded me of that time and being able to help somebody and, and, you know, they, they are vulnerable. And when a person is vulnerable, Most times they don't want to appear vulnerable, so they try hard not to look vulnerable.

Yeah, and that's, um, you know, in that, that place of, uh, you know, needing help like you described, uh, you know, we— most of us have gotten either injured or something, and we hit that place where you don't care anymore how anyone feels. It's like, I need help Right now, um, in cancer, depending on everything that's going on, there are many days that feel like that to people. And so it's totally cool from the point of view of the friend or family member to say, okay, you're doing great, good, good, good. But then they hit that day and that's when you need to be there, you know?

Yeah.

You know, like when Devindia saved your life, it's— that's when the person needs to show up.

I mean, I honestly felt like she saved my life on that one. I was like, I thought for sure I was going to kick the bucket.

If you're having that type of allergic reaction, you may have kicked the bucket. Yeah. So yeah. And I think that, you know, the other side of it, which the publishers have really, you know, obviously this is their job, but they have really great editors in the beginning where you meet with them and say, these are my ideas and does this make sense? They really helped me to boil this down so that either a cancer patient or a loved one, friend, family, you get the same information out of it. It's just appropriate to whether one side or the other.

Right.

So the other side of the conversation we just had is, um, if you're the cancer patient, we go through getting you to the place where it doesn't feel weird to ask for help when you need it. You don't have to ask for help all the time. But like getting past that, 'cause the last thing you need is playing games with yourself around, oh no, I don't wanna be a burden or what, you know, you need to go past that. And part of being empowered in anything, but especially as a cancer patient, is it's not that the cancer doesn't matter. And it's not that, you know, you're ignoring it. It's that you're on top of it and you know, this is a bad day. I can get help today, you know?

Yeah.

Or, you know, but, but really the point is getting to that place because people live better lives, definitely, and probably longer lives, and their treatments work better if they're on top of it.

Right. Well, you know, one of the questions I had that I had written here, uh, and obviously you've answered the question, but I'm gonna make it sound rhetorical because that's just what we do sometimes. Uh, all of this clearly is making a difference for the patient. All the things that you've written down in this book, it's got to be making a difference for people.

Yes. And I say that not because the book's been out a long time, but this is what I've worked with patients on for all these years.

And I mean, this is your firsthand experience.

Yeah, yeah. It's the book. The book is not an academic book. This is a book from my heart and my experience. And, you know, and I've not always done this stuff great, you know, because as a doctor, you're sort of in a different place.

Right.

You're kind of in the middle. And you learn the hard way sometimes, you know, you should go a little further with this person or a little less. But this is— there's nothing in there, in here that I had to get someone else's advice about. I got advice on writing and telling stories, but the factors involved in a healthy process to being empowered, I've lived that with so many people that that was the easy part.

Well, this is fantastic. Now, final question, because we're almost out of time, Paul. So yes, I think we got about a minute left. Final question, how is the book being received?

The book is doing well. It was Amazon number 1 in 3 categories during the launch week. So oncology, which is about cancer, and then One related to patients and then one around breast cancer. And we're going into the second week with the launch. It's still doing well. You can get it anywhere where you have electronic book access. So there's Amazon, of course, there's Barnes Noble online. Another really great one— I'm from Portland, Oregon— Powell's Books is an international bookseller now. They used to just be a funky bookstore in Portland.

Right.

And so if you want to go kind of off the mainstream, Powell's Books online, but really anywhere. And right now you can get a Kindle version. A lot of people do that. And then there's, there's a paperback version that I have here that's available. The other thing that I just want to mention is this is an easy read. I made it to be right to the point. There's no fluff. You can go in and if you need chapter 3 and you don't need chapter 2, you can do that. And then in the back, I have a lot of resources for people if they really want to dive into some.

Well, that's fantastic. And your website?

So the best, uh, best entree is just Dr. A Books, drabooks.com. And there's links there to the other stuff that I do. Also on Instagram, I post a lot of, uh, things. So DRA Online, Dr. A Online, uh, on Instagram or Facebook.

And Facebook. Yeah. And you're on Twitter now too?

Uh, yes, I am.

Dr. Paul Anderson. You've come a long way.

Yes, I have. I figured out how to use my phone. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

I love it.

And I love you, Paul.

You're awesome. And, uh, thanks for letting me, uh, come on your show and interview you about this fantastic book.

And thank you. And yeah, that—

we'd love to—

we'll, we'll do more interviews now that, uh, we're recovering from the shock of COVID or whatever it is. All right. All right. All right. Thanks a lot, man.

Thank you.