Marketplace Deep Dive & Investor Insights With Jason Bornstein From Forerunner | EM Group Chat #182

Welcome back to Everything Marketplaces, where we talk with founders and leaders from some of today's top marketplaces. So this is episode 182, which is a really great group chat that we just had with Jason Borstein, who's a partner at Forerunner. Forerunner is a venture fund that's backed notable marketplaces like Fare, HotelTonight, Curated, Wander, and Fora. Jason also leads research at Forerunner and is behind the recent post, Our Source of Truth on Marketplaces, which has been a popular post with founders in the community. So this is a great chat with Jason where he started off by sharing what led him to investing at Forerunner and also marketplaces. He gave us an overview of Forerunners Adventure Fund, walked us through the recent post, Our Source of Truth on Marketplaces. We spent some time discussing their marketplace scorecard and specific criteria that they use to evaluate marketplaces when investing. Jason shared how he's seeing AI impact marketplaces, a few specific opportunities, and we also had a great group Q&A. I really enjoyed this conversation. Now you're going to find it a great watch to the end. So Jason, you've been a highly requested group chat guest with founders here in the community. So I'm really excited to have you join us here today and wanted to start off by saying huge thanks for taking the time to do so in advance. We have a lot that we're going to dive into today on the group chat, but I thought a good starting point might be having you briefly share your background for those here that might not know you.

Sure. My name is Jason. I'm a partner at Forerunner Ventures. I joined the firm a little over 6 years ago, and prior to that, I worked at one of our earliest portfolio companies, Bonobos. I found my way to venture. I've mostly dedicated my career to startups and found my way to venture out of curiosity. This is a role where I'm able to explore the unknown, and I'm not sure, you know, what the rest of my week looks like, or next month, or next quarter. And I get a lot of energy from that. It also has proven to be, now that I'm in this head of research role and one of those opportunities where I can blend my storytelling and data-driven analysis.

Awesome. That's a good background. And then also too, sharing, you know, what led you to Forerunner. But I guess, you know, from a marketplace kind of, you know, lens, what led you to marketplaces and what do you think make them great businesses?

I mean, here, so last year we put out an op-ed and information about how people were so down on consumer investing. And, you know, this is what we do. We've never been down on consumer investing. And, you know, you see in the market today, there's a lot of conversation about consumer AI coming back. It's for a similar reason that we did the work on marketplaces. Marketplaces are ideal for solving certain consumer needs. I truly cannot imagine, you know, Uber owning all of the cars, Airbnbs owning all of the homes, Fair in our portfolio owning all the boutiques or the craft brands, right? They're solving consumer needs and doing so in a tech-enabled, you know, business model that is the most efficient way to do that. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but, you know, it is the most efficient way to do that. You know, secondly, like these, this business model has stood the test of time. Think about all the way, you know, to the early days of eBay and Craigslist, you know, up until today. So there has been challenges in the market. venture has certainly cooled for marketplaces, but we felt like it's not just right. If you really step back and zoom out, there's $570 billion of market cap for marketplaces, not including Amazon. That speaks to the impact that the model has had on the market.

Yeah, you got lots of head nods here, and you mentioned a lot of points that we're going to get into in detail, but I guess I also thought it might be helpful for those that don't have context here. Can you give us an overview of Forerunner as a venture fund?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're an early-stage consumer fund. We've backed early rounds in Chime, Aura, Fair, Hims, The Farmer's Dog. And as I mentioned before, like, we, we have long been consumer investors, you know, since the origin of the firm back in 2011, 2012, we never pulled back from this. Right now we're investing in a $500 million early-stage fund. We lead seed and Series A rounds. across categories and business models. So, you know, on the marketplace side, on the subscription side, and then across commerce, fintech, health, productivity, it's quite broad what you'll see us investing in.

That's a helpful overview for us here. And I guess, you know, what do you specifically look for, you know, in marketplaces when investing and maybe even kind of starting with, you know, in founders?

I like to stick to first principles here and keep it as simple as possible. You know, at the earliest stages, it really is about investing in a person. And so oftentimes there's only a deck or they've just launched, you know, or they're about to launch. And so for us, there's 3 things. One, a clear vision. You know, bonus if that you have crafted the skill to storytell that vision, though that I do think that's something that you can learn over time. Second is ability to execute and drive results. You have to be able to bring that vision to life. And then the third is the capacity to attract resources. And this could be talent on your team, customers, capital from investors. You are going to be selling as a founder a lot. It's something that needs to feel comfortable and you need to be able to show that you can do that. There's one thing I'll add for marketplaces. You all are building marketplaces. You know that these are exceptionally difficult businesses to build and sustain, maybe more so than others. It's also a business model that has a rich history and a lot of nuances and concepts that are specific to the model. And so what we want to see from founders that are building marketplaces that believe that marketplace is the best way to solve, you know, the consumer problem that they're going after is you have to be a student of the model. You have to be able to speak intelligently. It has to be on the different concepts and how they apply to your business. You have to embrace this because coming in sort of blindly thinking you're building a marketplace, but not knowing, you know, what your liquidity metric is or certain, you know, things that are pretty basic in marketplaces is challenging for us. It doesn't build, you know, you want to be inspiring confidence that you know more than us about marketplaces.

That's a great point. As far as mentioning that, as a student of marketplaces as well as we all are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as a research person, I am a student in general, but I think that this category lends itself to people being able to really immerse themselves in, in what's been written and what's been, you know, known and discovered.

Yeah, certainly. And speaking of research, you know, as I briefly mentioned, you know, your recent post, Our Source of Truth on Marketplaces, which kind of, you know, prompted this group chat here today. You know, that's, that's what I wanted to spend, you know, a majority of the group chat discussing here. And you briefly mentioned, you know, why marketplaces are great business, kind of as the post starts out with. But can you walk us through the post in detail? Maybe start with a kind of a quick summary on, you know, how marketplaces have evolved. And which helps kind of lead us to where we're at today.

So the origin here was really about zeroing in on what makes marketplaces special in this moment in time when investors are not as favorable towards marketplaces. And so for us, we wanted to step back and say, okay, there's 2 decades of marketplaces, even more than that. And we want to understand how they've evolved. And this is even really just looking at the public market. Marketplaces, not the early stage and not some of the later stage that are about to go public and sort of wrap our heads around what are these concepts that other experts have written? How can we put some numbers behind them and, you know, support or, or come up with reasons, you know, to push back on, on some of the things that they've said. So for us, we think about wave 1 as being the early internet days. Think of this as light management, peer-to-peer, typically horizontal, typically selling physical products. Think Craigslist, eBay. And then in the mid-2000s, mid to late 2000s, you start to see a second wave. And this was a shift towards a higher degree of management and this higher take rates, more verticalized solutions, more service offerings. And then, you know, maybe even most importantly, mobile first. So this was companies that were being built, you know, in the early days of the iPhone or right after. So this is think Airbnb, Uber, DoorDash, some of the largest exits. If you rolled that forward to, you know, 2013, '14, '15, when those Wave 2 companies were very visible in the market, had high valuations, seemed to be working, were getting a lot of investment. That's when we knew we hit peak wave 2 because we were seeing Uber for X was coined and, you know, coming out of YC or early stage, like that's a common thing, Shopify for X, Stripe for X, you know, and at this point, a lot of the large TAM categories were spoken for. And so you were seeing longer tail marketplaces emerge that were generally challenged to reach venture scale. And that sort of leads us to where we are today, where in the market, Series As for marketplaces are down 85% from the peak in 2017.

Yeah, it's definitely quite a bit. And I think a lot of us here, you know, definitely remember that kind of the wave too, right? As you mentioned, like the Uber for X or kind of Airbnb for X era. So yeah, you mentioned as far as like public comps, right? And most founders and teams here kind of at the earlier stages, but I do think it's, you know, definitely important to, you know, maybe kind of highlight the point there on, on the, on the post about how, you know, public markets are kind of valuing marketplaces at that stage. So could you maybe share a little bit more on that and kind of help highlight some of the key points there?

So for us, like, if next to SaaS, we think marketplaces has created the broadest and deepest range of public companies. And you see that in that $570 billion number, excluding Amazon. So we want to use these public marketplaces to illustrate the point that not all marketplaces are created equal and to show that also there are multiple paths to be successful. And, you know, as an early-stage founder, I'd encourage you to think about which path you're pursuing. And are there things that you can set, you can choose early on that will set your business up for success in the, in the longer term? And so with this in mind, we, we broke up the, the companies and the analysis across a few different dimensions. And this for us was really thinking about, okay, what do these businesses do? How do they work? What are they providing? And so you've got products and services. Within products, you've got companies that are holding inventory or not holding inventory. And then you've got light, medium, heavy management, which typically aligns with what the take rate will be and how much of the process the marketplace owns. Then you've got high, low— I'm sorry, high, medium, and low frequency. So how often Are— is the demand side purchasing here? Is it something that's happening multiple times a month? Is it happening, you know, once every few months or once a year? Is it happening once every few years? There are good marketplace examples in each one of those. And then, you know, another that we looked at here was the supply as a supply variety as a bug versus a feature. You know, does the, does the marketplace— is the offering that you have a lot of variety, or is it that you're trying to make the variety, you know, more homogeneous, you know, to the extent possible? And then this last part, which we'll talk about a little bit more in terms of the capital intensity of marketplaces, was this idea that let's look at how capital efficient marketplaces were before their IPO, and did that determine how successful they were going to be post-IPO? Because that's really a lot of what's at the crux, in addition to the smaller TAM categories. That's at the crux of why venture investors have pulled back here.

Yeah, I definitely think that's like a, you know, one of the, I guess, like critiques of marketplaces, right, is the capital intensity.

So exactly. I mean, the other thing I'll add too, that's maybe more of a a plus here is that there's a really healthy M&A market for marketplaces. It's a unique model where the sum of the parts is greater than the individual parts. So that's why it makes sense for some horizontal marketplaces or even vertical ones to acquire competitors. This is more true than you could say for a subscription, whereas in a marketplace, Supply and demand joining helps with the network effects, helps to strengthen those. And so it does make a lot more sense. And you have seen a lot more, you know, billion-plus acquisitions in the marketplace category than in others.

That's actually a really interesting point. Something we're talking about here quite a bit is M&A, or at least, you know, founders being interested in learning more about it. So are there any examples or, you know, maybe kind of data points around as far as like what stage that's more typical at?

I think there's probably 2 paths here. There's the path of, you know, if you think about Uber acquiring Postmates and it was, you know, Uber, DoorDash, Postmates, maybe Caviar in there, sort of all vying and blitzscaling at the same time and trying to win regions and it became clear at some point that Uber Eats and DoorDash were going to be the winners there. And so after that happened and they had sort of duked it out, then there was an acquisition because it still made sense because certain, you know, I think Postmates was very successful in LA, for example. So that sort of acquisition made sense and couldn't be, you know, several billion dollars. There's also a play of like eBay acquiring a category-specific player, somebody that is selling a certain type of product where they don't have as much inventory or they've pulled back actively. And that will happen at a smaller scale. And it's not like eBay is necessarily— they are directly competitive with that player, but they're— it's not as much of a head-to-head because eBay sells so many different products.

Oh, definitely. So, well, cool. So I know we're covering quite a bit here, you know, from the post. I did want to spend a little bit of time discussing the marketplace scorecard though that you included in there. I thought that was a really great kind of resource and how you kind of, you know, actually listed out some specific criteria that you use for evaluating marketplaces. So could you maybe kind of walk us through some of those specific criteria on the scorecard?

Sure. I think, you know, the scorecard is really rooted in our experiences and then analysis from marketplace experts like Bill Gurley, Casey Winters, Sarah Tavo, Dan Hockenmire. People that, that we read, you know, as much as we could of what they had written before we worked on, on this. I think of from an investor perspective, and even as a founder, as you're, as you're maybe in the early stages of figuring out if a marketplace is the right approach, like the scorecard allows us to pass on 80% of marketplaces. But it doesn't tell us which marketplaces are gonna make it. So the ideal approach for us as an investor is to create more of an index of the 20% that we think can meet a certain threshold that falls within our focus area as consumer investors. And, you know, the different aspects of the scorecard are, I think, are pretty straightforward and make sense. But maybe the other part of it, and I encourage you to go read the post and Mike, we can go into more detail here, but I thought maybe the, the, that part of the 80% was maybe most relevant. And then the second part is we do like to break it up into, especially at the early stages, like Mike mentioned that, that John at Leland, we led their Series A, is a member of the community. We actually went through this exercise with him and did, where did we think that they were at today? And where did we think the potential of where they could go? Because you're not going to be perfect at everything in the earliest stages. And so some of the potential has to do with the market and how big the market is and what are the characteristics of the market. And so we're not just looking at where you are today, though that is important. We are also looking at where we think this could go if it works the way that we all hope it does.

I think that's a really helpful context. But I guess, you know, for founders here that are looking at that scorecard and they're saying, you know, how does this apply to, you know, what I'm building with my marketplace and like, how should I think about it? Maybe could you kind of like help highlight some of those, like, I guess, like the main kind of criteria that they should use and maybe tips for how they should think about it?

So actually, like a good portion of this is inspired by Bill Gurley's post from 10+ years ago that holds up. And, and he talks about the characteristics of the ideal marketplace. And we started to tweak this a little bit based on some of the, you know, learnings that have been had in the market since then. I think number one, as you're thinking about, is the marketplace the ideal model to solve the consumer problem that you're building for? Is this new experience unlock? How different is it from the alternative? If you were building a subscription or if you were building just a regular commerce experience, how different is what a marketplace can create for this category from those? And it has to feel increment— it has to be more than just an incremental difference. It has to really change the game. Then in terms of frequency, you know, higher frequency is better. It is possible to build a low-frequency marketplace, but, you know, categories with higher frequency are going to be better. You want there to be high liquidity. So if it's a market that's going to be— this is about, you know, getting going and what your liquidity metric is. We just want to see signals of that as we're evaluating company. And then economic advantages, you know, on the demand side and the supply side. Ideally, there are economic reasons why somebody would use your platform. They can make money off of it, it's cheaper. They're getting access to something that they couldn't otherwise get access for without having to pay up for it. There are different ways that you can create economic advantages, but you want to be really crystal clear on what yours are. Then there's the fragmentation. I mean, this is like classic textbook marketplaces. It needs to be hard to aggregate. The supply. And there needs to be a degree of fragmentation that would be difficult for somebody to replicate, either a competitor or that, that it would be difficult for a consumer to say, I'm just going to go direct, you know, to the players because there aren't that many players. The strength of network part. This is a little bit more of a summation of the things above and, and starting to gauge the network effects. In the business. And then the market opportunity, this connects to when I was talking about like larger TAM and smaller TAM categories. It is possible to build in a smaller TAM category, but you've got to be thinking earlier on about what your unlock is for the next revenue stream or the next adjacent category than you would if you were building in a category that had more opportunity. And then this aggregation edge has to do with aggregation of supply and demand and You know, are there shortcuts? Are there— are you out ahead of the market in a way that you're able to take advantage of new distribution channels? That's what we're trying to understand here.

Well, cool. So another topic that I wanted to talk about is AI. So I guess, you know, how are you seeing AI impact marketplaces? And maybe kind of going forward, are there any specific opportunities that you're seeing for marketplaces to leverage AI?

This is a topic that we are live in the moment this week spending time on as a follow-up to, to the source of truth work that we did. So I'd say there's, there's 2 initial paths that we're exploring here. One is AI that is created by the marketplace to better connect supply with demand. So this is improving liquidity and, and likely probably cutting out some costs. And changing also the experience. So this, this in a marketplace that's kind of medium to lighter managed where there's this scroll of you figuring out who you want to work with or, you know, selecting which supply you, you know, you, you like, that all goes away here. I think most marketplaces have an opportunity here and some new leaders will emerge. There's an early stage company called Grove. That just raised a seed. They connect patients with clinical trials. And so rather than you putting in, you know, filters for this is the condition I have and these are the trials I'm looking for, there's actually an AI agent that's doing an intake and then getting all the information to be able to match you. The second is AI or really automation more broadly that's going to replace supply. So this is, you know, last month or maybe 2 months ago, there was a lot of posts about how Waymo overtook Lyft in SF. This is, you know, the potential for supply automation by replacing the supply either with cars in this case and not needing humans or AI agents, you know, replacing the supply on the Fiverr or Upwork of the world. This is not going to apply to all businesses. Though when it does, I think the impact will be probably more profound than, than the first path that I shared. And as an example, like Airbnb, I don't think that the supply is going to be automated there. It's much less likely than, than an Uber or Lyft or a Fiverr or an Upwork or a DoorDash.

Well, to keep an eye out for that post. So, well, cool. So we're going to get into the group Q&A here because I know I promised founders I'd save some time for that today during the last part of the group chat. But, you know, right before we do, I guess, do you have any maybe like a few tips for early-stage founders here that you'd like to share?

Yeah, I think, I think in, in this business model and especially in this moment in time is like find the investors and founders and operators who believe in marketplaces. They are out there and building these businesses hard, like pushing the boulder up a hill of trying to convince somebody about marketplaces is going to add to that. And I think that there will be a renaissance of marketplaces. I also think that there will be a new generation of investors that are backing marketplaces. And so cultivating those relationships will go a long way.

That's gonna be helpful tips. Cool. So I'm actually gonna jump in here and go ahead and ask a question that a founder added to the doc in advance, which is around supply curation and quality. So they were mentioning, The importance of curating and maintaining supply quality, of course, is very important. So do you have any, maybe a few tips to share as far as like the best way to do this in, you know, an efficient manner?

I think what first comes to mind for me is Sarah Tafel's post on Happy GMV, and which, which if you haven't read it, is a very elegant way of, you know, we're trying to get at what of the GMV that you have as a business Is is people satisfied with the offering, and that really does come down more likely than not to the quality of the supply. And I think about what Leland's done here. I mentioned before, right? They have a I think five or sub five percent acceptance rate of coaches. It's a really tight group. And that builds confidence, you know, as an investor that it's not just anybody can become a coach in a time when it feels like everybody wants to become a coach. And then also, if for you to be able to make that claim, you know, on the demand side, it provides confidence too that you're going to get what you paid for. And, and so I think it's a little bit of, you know, trusting your gut on and putting yourself more in the demand side experience of what would be ideal there. I think that the sort of hacks around supply aggregation are a little bit more specific to the categories and also to the period, you know, like time period. I know I'm representing a lot of people. I feel like Lenny Rachitsky's post here on looking back at the marketplaces and the different paths that they took to get their first customers. You know, some of them are using SEO, some of them are using word of mouth, some of them are— there was a whole range there of options, and you can see which ones were more popular. But part of that has to do with the moment in time in which they were started and then the nuances of their categories. It's a little hard for me to get more specific than that.

No, I think that's gonna be helpful. Of course, as with marketplaces, it's— everything's nuanced, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Then I'm gonna ask another question that was added to the doc. It's kind of a fun question, but it was, do you have any investor pet peeves?

I mean, I think this is especially true in marketplaces where we talked about the perception that they're capital intensive. Raise what you know how to spend. Raising more because an investor tells you you can raise more or because you think you should, we can see through that on our end. And with the exception of maybe AI, this sort of like big round, because, you know, like even if you could raise a lot, like there's something to having capital constraints and to having a certain length of runway because you need to be getting external validation in the market continually by going out and raising again.

Oh, definitely. How do you typically, you know, advise founders to think about, you know, expansion at the earlier stages?

It has to feel natural. And ideally there's a pull in the market from the demand side or from the supply side that's saying that they're wanting this. It's a, it, and I think too, like, well, I've just used Leland again because it's fresh in my mind because we recently had a Series A and I think the group is maybe more familiar with this one. Like, His approach of expansion has gone 2 directions, John's. One is that he created an offering that was more of a subscription that were people with different price, you know, points that they're looking for and also people that are maybe just getting started and would convert into coaches. And so that's a little bit more of a TAM expansion by targeting different demand side. But then he's gone across a bunch of different coaching categories and that feels, you know, the most natural. And then there's hopefully like a playbook and he's going more where like the demand side is pulling him. He's hearing that he, that people want this and that's when he decides, you know, to roll that out. So it feels very natural. I'll say like somebody I think had maybe put in a question here. I'm not sure if we'll get to it on Airbnb and their extension into experiences and like, This is, it's very different because they were at a much larger scale and they were actually profitable at the time. But it, and it makes a ton of sense as to why they did that, right? It feels natural. It's also a different core competency. Yeah.

Cool. We'll probably get to that question that was added, as you mentioned, as far as Airbnb's expansion. Hey, Peter, do you want to come on there first? I saw you raise your hand.

Yeah, absolutely. So We talked a bit about M&A between marketplaces. I'm interested in M&A as a growth model. So we exist in a market that is highly fragmented and where incumbents basically act as manual marketplaces with human intermediaries. We believe that there's an opportunity to grow through buying these existing manual marketplaces. How would you go about kind of evaluating that idea before buying a company?

Can you tell me more about what the businesses that you would acquire look like? Because it, what is, what do you mean by a manual marketplace? Is it like an agent broker type?

Pretty, pretty much. It's in senior care. So a lot of agencies will exist. They have care managers that will understand the client requirements and then match and manage caregivers. And so there is a bit more than a pure marketplace of matching supply and demand. There's a service element. But yeah.

And would those, if you acquire those businesses and they're like, does the person that is doing the manual work, you know, in the business that you're acquiring, what role do they have in your business? Do they fit? Does it, does their role like translate one-to-one or? Are they out of the picture? Are they doing something else?

They would, they would likely be out of the picture. It would be more to buy— the value of the acquisition would be their reputation in the market and their current client base, right?

I would maybe think about what role that person could have in your organization, because it does seem like their relationships are what, what, what's making it work. And if you take their relationships on the demand and supply side and just put them into a digital experience. I worry about if that translates and if they just jump because they, you know, it's not what they're used to versus you actually going over and winning over his supply without his or her supply without that, you know, them involved or a marketplace where more traditional, you know, digital marketplace where the supply and demand are used to the motion of, you know, connecting with each other. And that feels more natural to me.

Yeah, makes sense.

I see where your head's at and I like the, I like the ambition. It's, I, yeah, I wonder if there's alternative paths to aggregating the supply.

Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense.

Hey, Molly, Joe, want to come on? We'll try to squeeze in one last question here. Yeah, I would love to know some of the most successful growth hacks you've seen early marketplaces use to grow users. Any examples you have?

I'm going to refer back to Lenny's post here. I really do think that this is too specific of a question. Sorry, the answer is too specific to like categories and market timing. It's gonna vary quite a bit here. And so I think less about the hacks and more about being intentional about what the go-to-market is that you pursue. And ultimately it has to be repeatable. And so the hacks typically only last so long because other people figure out that you're doing it. Or you were early to a platform and then now everybody else is on the platform. for distribution. So I would think I'd encourage thinking a bit more longer term on that and what feels natural, like the menu of options and which ones feel most natural. And you might have to try a few different ones there. The other part of it too is that, you know, I think there is just a lot of like grind and hustle in it. And It seems like a lot of the times when I've heard is just truly like showing up on people's doorsteps, calling them sort of the basic, you know, stuff there. So I'm sorry, I can't be more helpful there. I mean, there are things that I've heard, like, you know, somebody that's building in a job space that is posting their jobs on Indeed and basically doing it until Indeed catches them and using that to But like from my perspective as an investor, that's clever, but I know that that's not gonna hold up. So it's hard for me to underwrite, you know, that part of the business because I'm saying like, this is as great as it can be as long as it's running, but when is it gonna stop? And then when it stops, is the business just gonna fall off a cliff because there's nothing else going on? And so it's not something that you own and can control. In that case. So if you are going to do a hack, I'd try to ensure that it's something that you can own and control.

Awesome. Well, that was a great last question, way to wrap up the group chat. So Jason, we really appreciate taking the time to join us here today, you know, walking us through the, you know, the post that you shared, which is of course, you know, super helpful here for the community and also to the marketplace scorecard and then helping answer some questions from founders here. So this would definitely be a really, you know, helpful group chat for everyone and also the recording for those that couldn't join in. And actually, I had one last question before you wrap things up though, and that's my usual closing question, which is if you could go right back to before you entered the world of marketplaces, what would you tell yourself about them specifically?

Capital intensive does not equal capital inefficient. I think those words get conflated and you think, oh, this business costs a lot of money to get going, therefore it's not an efficient business. And that's not true. And the data that we included in the report shows that, in fact, like the capital intensity of a marketplace may actually be what makes it more defensible over time. And I think you're seeing this play out right now in the AI space with the money that's being invested in the foundational models. I mean, we'll see how those play out, but there doesn't seem to be investor sensitivity right now to, you know, investing billions and billions of dollars into training models. And maybe ultimately that is the defensibility, or maybe not, right? But I think in the marketplaces world, we have enough evidence to show that capital intensive does not mean capital inefficient.

That's going to be great parting advice for us all here. And then last but not least, time for a quick plug. Where can we all keep up with you at and also reach out for fundraising?

Oh yeah. I try to do my best in sharing our content on LinkedIn. That's the best place to reach out and also to see, to see our latest research.

Awesome. I'll include our links and you'll definitely have lots of founders coming your way. So we really appreciate taking the time to join us here today. And thanks everyone for the questions.