Marketplace Trust & Safety Workshop

So welcome to our Everything Marketplaces workshop today, which is going to be on trust and safety. So if this is your first community workshop, welcome. And our workshops are where domain experts join us to walk through topics that are relevant to us all as marketplace founders and teams here. They're 30-minute or so presentations followed by a group Q&A. So with that said, I'm really excited to welcome on Edge and Sante today, who are going who's to be talking about trust going and safety. Thanks, Ed. to walk us through the importance of trust and safety for marketplaces. So Ed is from the Persona team, which is used by top marketplaces like Outdoorsy, Lime, and many more to help with trust and safety. So right before I let Ed take over, I do once again want to mention that this is going to be about a 30-minute or so presentation followed by a group Q&A. So with that said, if you have any questions, you can post them in the Zoom chat, and then please just be sure to turn on your camera and use the Zoom raise hand functionality so that way we know to call on you during the group Q&A part. So with that said, you know, huge thanks for taking the time to join us here today, Ed. You know, definitely looking forward to the workshop, and I'll just actually let you start with the brief intro and take it over from here.

Yeah, that sounds great. Thanks so much, Mike, and thanks everyone for being here. It's exciting to be talking to this audience. I'm a big fan of your community. The work you're doing there is fantastic. So glad to be on the other side now, you know, and being able to share a little bit about what we're doing, a little bit about Persona, but also trust and safety for marketplaces. Just by a show of hands, maybe I want to kind of get a feel for who is actually building marketplaces here, who is at a stage where it's actually up and running. You can just get a feel for some of you, be great. And in the meanwhile, and while people are joining, I want to quickly introduce myself. So as Mike said, I'm Ed, Ed Giansante, Head of Community here at Persona. Persona, for those who don't know, is an identity management platform. We help businesses verify customer identities and build trust in in online interactions. And as I said, as a fellow member of Everything Marketplaces, I know how important it is to build trust with your customers, with your sellers, your buyers, even within your own staff. I'm gonna share a little bit of, you know, some experiences here and there that I'm having myself as someone who's new to San Francisco, but also as someone who knows a little bit about what's happening with the marketplaces and trust and safety from our client side. And yeah, we take it from there. Cool. So I can see, oh cool, some people in. Nice. Good to see some faces. And I'm glad that you guys are putting the faces out there. I like that. It makes it more human.

This is good.

It's our KYC here live. So cool. Let's get started. And I'll start with, you know, a little bit of a personal story because As I said, I'm moving to San Francisco now and I'm at the point where I'm looking for a place. And when you do like rental listing, I think one of the most challenging things is really, can I trust this person who's advertising their house, you know, their apartment? Because you're putting a lot of risk there, right? It's a city you don't know. A lot of people, you have no idea who they are, whether it's a scam, if it's not, if the place is good. So it's not only like the Know your room, know your roomie. It's almost like, should I even trust doing a transaction with this place? And we know that it's quite important in markets like this. And in this case, like my own experiences, like I would rather have a place that is not necessarily the best place in the world, but that I trust the person that I'm transacting with more so than I would have an amazing place that I can't trust whether this is real or not, right? So we know a lot of cases are happening with fraud. And I think 3 very normal, and I'd say common cases you might see is, you know, cases around fraud when, you know, people are just, you know, essentially using places like marketplaces for that. There's the perception of security, which I think is more of my case now, which is like, should I trust this? Yes or no? And then you may also have cases like, you know, synthetic ID where someone may say, you're that person or did come up with a random ID of someone who doesn't exist. And it is a challenge. It is a challenge. And I can tell you that I've been lucky to have found someone mutual in this connection and I have a place, so all good. But again, it's one of those that we see, it's super important for us. It's very important that we think about marketplaces from all the perceptions that we have from either prospects, someone is just navigating and, you know, found your marketplace, someone who's actually about to transact. Also there's sellers who are there, you know, offering their services, their items, whatever it is that you're selling. But also for you who is, if you're working with, you know, remote teams, if you're working with different partners, you wanna make sure that you're, you can trust them as well. So Fiki kind of touches on all these spectrums really. And I have some exciting things to share with you. So just before we dive into that, and again, feel free to, you know, ask questions in the chat. We're gonna have Q&A at the end, but if you wanna pop them as they come, we can at the end just look at the list and start throwing them in. When we look at risk, we have a couple of factors that we take into consideration. One is the user risk. So, you know, who is this person? Do they, are they who they say they are? Do they have a credit history? All of that. We have regulatory risks, which is again, information that regulations will dictate and what information we need to collect and how we need to collect to verify certain users. We have transactional risk, which is again, what kind of transaction is this? Is this user changing their account information, maybe changing passwords? What's going on there? We have financial risk, right? So, Again, when there's money at stake, there's a likelihood of having some sort of fraud and ML. So you need to be aware of those as well. And then behavioral risk as well, which is, you know, how is the interaction from this user with your platform? Is there like VPN proxy they're using? Are you seeing like something that's shady happening in that behavior from that specific user? So you may have a lot of that. And I would say, and again, feel free to chime in, but I would say that on top of that, as an owner or founder or part of a member of a marketplace, you have sensitivity around buyer-seller interactions. You have to think about how are you using AI and building automations for your system. So that also adds layers of, you know, how do I continue to level my trust here with the peer-to-peer experience? You may have large payouts depending on the marketplace you're in. And you probably, I'm hoping if not yet, but we'll very soon be expanding internationally. So we have to think about how does that play when I think about different geographies, different systems in different languages and all of that. So there's an extra layer of all of this that we just said that adds complication to it, right? So is it making sense so far? All good?

Yeah.

Awesome, awesome, that's great. Now when we think about identity verification and really going through process of verifying our customers, we usually have a traditional way of doing it, which is a catch-all onboarding system. And this may go through the entire lifecycle of your customers where they'll go in, you throw them into like this bucket, like this is the process, this is how you do it. And you may probably have a lot of drop-offs, a lot of friction because usually what happens is, and we see this a lot with our customers, because you have a catch-all process, you probably have to crank it to like a medium to high risk. So you kind of avoid some major issues. And if you do so, you're going to probably lose a lot of users in the conversion. So that can be a lot of friction upon onboarding. It can be a lot of friction throughout the process. It can be that you're asking information that may not resonate to different geographies. It may cause a lack of trust because again, I think there are 2 levels of trust here, right? If you're a new marketplace, they have to trust you so that they would share their ID and information with you first, and then therefore complete that onboarding process. Again, we see a lot of new tech coming in, but there's a risk of like, what if my data gets leaked? What happens there? So when you have a catch-all, you have like this big risk of essentially losing a lot of your potential customers because they're not converting, they're not finishing their signup process. When we look at how we did, for example, at Persona, and what I would recommend like you doing for your own systems is we think about this as a progressive risk segmentation. So what does that mean? You may have heard this as dynamic friction. So you essentially calibrate your risk based on segments that you have for your customers. So in short, essentially riskier users will have to go through more friction so you can optimize conversion and reduce risk there as well, right? So Again, how do you do that? I'm gonna show this in a second, but if you think about segmenting them, like you essentially have low risk converting higher, you have high risk having a lot of friction, and if so, even going through manual approvals so that you can still optimize your system and keep like it pretty clean for your marketplace. So if you go back into the types of risks that I mentioned, you can essentially use all of them. And that will give you some criteria, right? So based on this combination of items, you can then look at, okay, this is high risk, this will have to go through manual process, I will have to ask for a lot of information. And then maybe there's a lot of like the combination there is like, okay, this is low, low risk, I can convert them pretty quickly. And I'll show you some examples because I actually had, again, we had pretty interesting cases on this. It's their first time, no credit history, a lot of things. You're like, okay, there's a lot of combinations here that would make this high risk and I wanna create more friction for this user. And I'll show you how you can do that as well, right? Now the other thing is maybe I may be talking a lot about onboarding, but we think about touchpoints for marketplaces. You probably have more and feel free to, you know, throw in the chat if you have more than these touchpoints that you would have some sort of interaction with your customers. But I'd say you have like, obviously you know your business. So a seller, someone is jumping in, you have the onboarding process that we've been talking to. You may have people trying to withdraw funds and then they have to, you know, or they have to sign up to do like, I don't know, some transactional. You may have someone trying to abuse promotions. Again, you may have like a coupon that they can apply and then you want to verify them so they don't reuse that coupon multiple times or They create multiple accounts to do so. I'll share some interesting cases with an auction site that we see a lot with people trying to scam the bidding system as well. So you have a lot of ways in how it can cause, you know, these touchpoints to be risky or not, and you wanna maybe think about all of them. So an approach I would take there is, so you identify the risk factors that you have, right? So you identify, okay, what's, What's good? What am I comfortable with? What am I not? What's the segment for? Like, how do I segment all of this? You can create as many as you feel like you need. But more than that, as you're configuring your friction, you need to look at, okay, is this impacting my conversion? And you have to monitor because as you're doing this, you're probably gonna see, okay, there's a new schema for fraud. So I need to, I don't know, calibrate this a little bit further here. or I have to reduce risk in this certain cases and increase risk in this other one. And you have to keep analyzing them and essentially optimize as you do it. So an example of the flow or types of verifications you can run, and you can always mix and match them, right? So you do a government ID where you can ask for like the front facing, the front of the card. You may ask for the back as well. You may ask them to do a selfie and then you can, the system would compare both the selfie against the photo that you have in the ID. You may ask for, I don't know, phone confirmation as well if you need. Again, depending on the types of places you have. Again, the example of the rental listing, I think would be fantastic if that would be a place is do a proof of the address. So asking that person who is offering that space to prove that they actually own or they're actually in that place so they can send like a bill, utility bill, And upload that, for example. So that would add a next layer of like verification. Again, because I'm moving, I had to sell my car and this marketplace that I used in Ireland, in Europe, they asked me to send a document like proving that I'm the owner of the car. So when I go to the marketplace, it's like, okay, this guy truly owns that car. There's a checkmark. So you can actually, when you're looking for, for example, if you wanna buy cars, only members who have the car verification, for example, the checkmark. So it adds layers of trust for your members as well. So as I said, you can do a mix and match here. Again, imagine that someone is saying like they're in California and then when they do the phone, the phone number's from a different place, you'd be like, oh, that doesn't sound right. Let me ask for additional information here. So that's progressive risk, right? That's how would that play in practice, right? Then the end result, and again, this is a simplified workflow here, but you essentially have your, KYC or KYB, depending on if you offer B2C or B2B. You're gonna have that evaluation of the risks and take actions there. You may have some passive signals, the ones that I mentioned as examples. You may run like, you know, link analysis. You can look at like, for example, if you go to graph from persona, you can have abilities to track this against other signals that are external to that specific customer as well to add enrichment in the data. and then define whether this is low, medium, or high risk. You may have even like auto-decline for high risk 'cause you're like, I don't want to get that, that's too much hassle. I don't have a workforce to, you know, control all of this plus, you know, thousands of people coming in, for example. So I just decline them. You may have like, okay, there's here potential risk, I want to do a manual review. But then low risk is like autocomplete, there's no further verification. It is what it is. We'll go for it. You know, that that's what we'll do. And I'll share an example. So I mentioned this auction website that we have as a customer for their onboarding process. There's no KYC. You can essentially sign up and that's it. Like you just do like basic email verification, but that's the only thing we ask. Once you're actually about to make a bid, that's when they have to KYC. And why is that? Because obviously you want to reduce the risk of someone trying to scam the whole system and you know. Just bid items up and then cranking the prices. So that's when there's a KYC process. But then there's an additional step when they're about to actually make the purchase. So bid gets approved and they're about to make that transaction, then they ask for additional information. If there's a high amount, like if the payout or if the actual amount is super high, they, the threshold is defined by them. But if it's a couple of thousand or you know, multiple thousands, they'll ask for additional information because again, you wanna make sure, you know, in conformism with your anti-money laundering and all of that. So again, it can be very simple where you onboard as many people as you want because you don't want to create that friction. But then as they're taking actions within your marketplace, that's when you actually start to look at, okay, how can I do my calibration here so I make sure that there's no wannabes in the system?

Right.

Cool. I'm talking a lot here. I kind of want to hear from you. So feel free to also, you know, if you have, if you're on microphone or if you wanna just, you know, unmute and mention like your marketplace. But I would love to hear what are the risk factors that you have for your marketplace and if any that's not been mentioned. I have a couple here that I added as an example that would say happening to marketplaces. For example, unmatched information, as I mentioned, My phone number is still from Europe, but I'm based in US now. So that can be a little bit suspicious, maybe not so much, but it could be one signal, right? That you'd be like, why is this address not matching to where the phone is? And this is like a prepaid phone. So another level of risk. So this was an example, but I would love to hear from you.

I actually had a question for you myself, you know, from my own kind of past experience. So we had, you know, individual users that might be more on the demand side, but then businesses. and there was some kind of overlap on that. Maybe from your experience, you know, what are you seeing with marketplaces as far as like best practices when it comes to, you know, how they initially kind of think about risk factors for individuals and consumers versus maybe businesses?

Yeah, that's a great question. Like, I can share a couple of things that we're seeing our startups and marketplaces are looking into. So one example I mentioned is like the matched information, but you also have people who are using proxies and VPNs when they're signing up. That's another risk, minimal, but it could essentially add up to the risk factor. Another one is they sign up and they will see that they're from time to time, they're changing their shipping address. Like suddenly they're like changing countries and all the locations. They may be using your system for something else. That's not the main purpose. You may see names or email addresses that are completely fake or clearly email addresses are like made up or just created out of like a bot or something. So this again can be suspicious. The domain could be suspicious as well. I have a plugin that it's been caught up, like more people actually, I got caught on this because it's a plugin that just fills up forms. So you don't need to fill them up if you're testing things, but it adds like this weird domain, like Mailnator or like mail something. And it's being caught in a lot of these places, right? They're like, you cannot sign up. This email doesn't look right. So this can happen as well. And I think if you combine this, I would say this would be good places to start and they seem to be reasonably easy to control. There's a question I think for Josh.

Go on, Josh.

Hey, how's it going? I'm Josh.

I'm co-founder and CEO of Caratex. We're a B2B2C marketplace for diamonds, gems, and jewelry. So we're attacking that supply chain. One of the, One of the questions I had was on the, on the B2B side. So what factors on the business side do you consider important to collect? What information? I know it's kind of a general question. Like we have, we have a KYC KYB process. It takes a while because of the caliber of customer that we have to deal with. But I'd love to learn more about what to focus on, on the, on the B2B supply side.

Yeah, that's a great question, Josh. And again, thanks for sharing this. I'd say like with jewelry, that could be like a high, high risk.

So yeah, I think that can be it in a lot of ways that it can be, and in other ways it can, it can be easy in some ways, right? Because you have reputable parties that you know you're dealing with.

But in a lot of ways, yes, there is high risk. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, KYB is definitely a big one. We actually are expanding like KYB now and Happy to share more afterwards as well if you want. But obviously one of the main things is making sure that you would match the information they share, like in the LLC or if it's like limited company, all of that. Certain countries, and I've shared this from experience, so in Europe but also in Latin America, depending on the types of businesses you have, you cannot serve certain businesses. So an example would be if you're like, I would say like an an individual, like a sole trader, you cannot trade above $100,000 or you cannot sell certain items like live animals or things like that. So there are certain regulations that would play in geography. So you wanna look into that. If you're doing a specific market, you may look at, okay, is this business legit? Like, do they have like an LLC? Did they file other systems? And essentially if you have a KYB in place, it will probably do that for you. So you don't need to, thinking too much about that. You just implement it. We'll give you the triggers and say, okay, this company is, I know the owner is who they claim they are. Or you may look at graphs. So essentially there's connections from that company to previous owners, or is there someone who is not who they claim they are, but they're in the directors or in the board? So you want to look at that as well and see if that specific individual is suspicious. So it's almost like you're doing like your KYC see of your KYB. So like, who are the owners and can I KYC them? So this is pretty common that we see as well. There are more cases that are more related to international as well. I'd say it's again back to, you know, where are you taxing, where do you pay taxes in a certain country? And then you're trying to have like, you know, shipments in different locations. Don't know much about how that would play for deals. And, you know, that probably is something that you have more experience than I do. But happy to discuss this more. You know, we have a couple of customers that are starting this journey as well, and that's pretty interesting for us.

Thank you.

Cool. Yeah. So just to go further before we get into actual Q&A. So as I mentioned, again, high risk can be all of this combined. Maybe low risk would be like, hey, this new customer didn't enable their 2FA. You're not going to say like, not going to log in or anything. get them like small alerts or like a modal in the system, but that's not going to create a lot of friction for that specific customer. And as I mentioned, like, look at friction and assurance levels. It's in a way kind of, this is how we would see this happening is the more you ask for assurance and add the friction level, you kind of combine, okay, I can essentially get more information and more certain of who this customer or who this business claims to be. And therefore you can start to unlock new things for them. There's obviously, I think one thing you can never change is account age, let's call it, where if it's a customer you've been working with several years, it's building up that trust level or like maybe there's some criteria that you have in your system for like, I don't know, points or rewards so that it's almost like a loyalty system where you're like, okay, the more they're getting in, like the more I can trust this member if they're like signing in or that specific IP if it's a company as well. So that can also work for you. And having said that, we do work for a couple of large but also small marketplaces, you know, from literally like one-person companies up to, you know, multiple thousands members, which is pretty interesting 'cause we see a lot of things happening, you know, at a different level. Sometimes it's again, If it's a one person, it, it's, they're trying to do everything. If it's multiple, they have like an entire fraud system team and they, they have like all the training, all of the, you know, onboarding processes for their internal teams as well, which is super interesting. And I wanted to share one specific case here from Outdoorsy. I learned about them relatively recently, but they resonate a lot to me because they essentially what they are is a peer-to-peer marketplace for rental of RVs. I myself built a camper van while still living in Europe, and I actually rent it from two friends because I don't trust other people to drive my van. But if I had a KYB in place and KYC, I'll probably be more open for that. But what they did is they fully automated their systems because they have— they wanted to focus on customer experience and not have someone be involved in any of the transactions or any of the processes. So they use progressive risk. And what they do is they automatically go through all the onboarding. If you have to do like a rental or if you're listing your van as well, they don't touch that customer, like unless obviously they're escalating an issue or there's an edge case, but the entire system's pretty smooth and this works really well for them. I think it's again an example of maybe not so traditional in the sense of, you know, it's not every day you're gonna be using a camper van, but They use it and it works pretty well for them as well. And having said that, I kind of wanted to share, and this is special for Mike's team here in Marketplace, Deverfy Marketplace, is we kind of wanna help you. I mean, we know it can be challenging to build a marketplace and we have started Personally, which is our, let's say like it's an add-on for Mike's work here with the marketplace communities. If you want to set up your IDV, if you want to do KYC or KYB even, but mostly if you're doing KYC, we want to help you, you know, implement this process. And you can set up for Persona to do like your KYC for GovID for free. You essentially go into our Persona community, sign up. There's no strings attached. You don't need to be like hooked into like, I don't know, a term or anything like that. You go in, you can test it. If you dislike it, You're free to go. If you like to get more out of it, you can, you know, ask us questions. You can have our team join you in one-to-one calls to help you set up your systems. So pretty, you know, open for that. We would love to hear, you know, also your feedback if you have any in how we can improve our processes for Marketplace. So again, it's open for you. I wanna make sure that if you wanna, if you're starting now, if you wanna improve your systems for trust and safety, Go in, you know, you can use it. No, again, there's a lot of salesperson, so I'm terrible in the pitch, but if you wanna join us, you're more than welcome. And just so we can recap and then maybe go to Q&A, main thing is think about your risk spectrum, not binary. So you wanna segment your customers and you wanna always calibrate that as you're improving your systems, maximizing conversion, you know, By looking like, okay, how can I intelligently build my fallbacks and adding like this systems in place? And more than anything, IDV truly matters. I can attest this. I mean, Mike probably has seen this so many times. If you have that level of trust, that's like half the game is won because if people are trusting you to sign up, they want to make sure that they can have that smooth interaction. They will be like low risk. low fraud, low cases for them to be concerned. And maybe there's like a hidden takeaway here, which is like, we're here for you. So if there's any questions, feel free to ask, we're here to help.

Awesome. This is really great. So thanks for walking us through it. So we're gonna get into questions here in a little bit. So if you have any, you know, if you have any questions, you know, please, you can just be sure to raise your hand and we'll call on you. But hey, Ed, so I had a question for you myself and that's if, you know, are there any specific maybe misconceptions when it comes to earlier stage marketplaces that you're seeing, you know, when marketplaces come to you guys and are looking to use Persona?

Yeah, I think one very, probably very common is that they will think that they have to run KYC only if they're like a fintech or they have to be in the compliant market and they're not thinking too much about the trust. Again, very simple example, and maybe I know I don't sound bad by saying this, but like Coffee Meets Bagel, which is like dating app. A dating app essentially is a marketplace of humans, right, who are like single people trying to connect with each other. So you have to build trust there, right? You want to make sure that you have elements of trust for the users there. So this is a case where if you were to think about traditional KYC, they'd be like, well, I don't need to be compliant to have a dating app. But the fact that I do a verification and I vet my members, I'm building trust. So I think this is simple where they're like, should I do this? Should I have, you know, KYC? Do I need to ask this information? Because they just think like, it's— I'm not fintech, I'm not transacting money here. So do I need that? And I think that's probably one of the main misconceptions.

So is there a specific— do you guys have like a checklist or something where it's like, hey, you know, marketplaces should think about doing, you know, step 1, 2, 3 kind of before they actually, you know, use you guys or?

Oh, that's a great question. So we try not to be the ones telling you what to do, you know, in the sense of like, hey, here's how you become compliant or how you build trust, but we do have best practices. So when you actually sign up, you have like a template that you can apply straight away. So for example, for like, how do I do a GovID verification? There's a pre-made setting for you. And we have a lot of walkthroughs there based on the type of industry you're in. So even if you're within marketplaces, you may be, I think Josh mentioned like you'd be like in the jewelry market. So that's a different goal for someone doing, I don't know, dropshipping. So we can look into that and have you like through the flows. But I think more than that, people like you who have the expertise by just doing it will be great people to share and bounce ideas. And I think this is the joy of a community like this where you can literally talk to each other and, okay, this is how I do it. Here's the best way to do it. And we're just there like as a tool for you. We're there just to help you get this implemented.

Yeah, yeah, certainly. We might have to create a post with us, some resources on that for founders here. So I think like the one of the, I guess we could say kind of points in time when we typically kind of realize it as early-stage marketplaces is when we get chargebacks through Stripe, right? And so, you know, then that kind of leads to using Stripe Radar. So how do you think about, you know, or maybe what you're seeing with early-stage marketplaces that are using Stripe to primarily kind of identify, you know, where that risk lies and maybe they're using like Stripe Radar And then how kind of Persona fits within that as far as like the kind of tool stack and maybe even just like the workflows when it comes to like identifying high-risk kind of users there and transactions.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think you all who are using payments or you have transactions that involve payments, if you're using Radar or I'm not familiar that much with Radar in the details, but I know that they do have a lot of good triggers for certain, as I said, chargebacks and things like that. you can always add this and integrate this with Persona. So for example, if you're running a workflow where someone's going through onboarding, they completed their first signup, nothing suspicious just yet, but then there's a chargeback that could trigger a workflow within Persona that adds a flag to that account so that next time they want to, I don't know, make a purchase or they will approach like a bidding, whatever it is, the marketplace you're in, you have that flag that can ask them for like additional information. So say before they complete that next transaction, they would get additional information asked so that you can verify them even further, or it goes through manual reviews. So it will flag you and you have to manually log in and check whether this is something that you want to approve, yes or no. So you can definitely use as a signal, I'd say chargebacks or anything that you come from Radar. Not only that, but say even like HubSpot data, for example, you can integrate with Persona and you can get data from your email balances or anything like that, any kind of like behavior they would have with how you interact with them. And that can trigger, you know, certain aspects for you in the Persona platform and therefore approve you or not.

Yeah, very cool. Yeah, it's definitely something I wish I had in the past. And so we were doing a lot of that, doing a lot of that manual. So reviewing accounts.

Oh man.

Yeah.

Cool.

So let's see if we have any more questions, Abel.

Yeah, I actually have a question for you all. I mean, and Mike, feel free to jump in, which is back to the, you know, the trust element. I mean, you've seen like so many builders trying to, you know, establish their marketplaces. Do you see any of them trying something different to build that element of trust that's beyond what we're talking about here?

I'm using community to do a lot of it. So, you know, a lot like keeping those networks a lot smaller. So a few hundred versus trying to build them like every marketplace to super scale where I need to verify everybody. They're like more trusted connections because you know everybody. So there's that. But then, you know, step that up when you're inside the marketplace and you're going to sell, then bring all this in. So like, it, you know, mine is a mix of social and marketplace. So you have, you know, I want to onboard you with the least amount of restrictions and then incrementally step you up. But ideally relying in, um, the marketplaces have the marketplace, each one has moderators and admins just like you would in like Reddit or anything else. So you have those running to do it and then The trust inside that community. And then once you do get into selling trust there, one thing I think, right, you keep saying transaction and I agree, but also on the other side is when you go to take it all out, putting more trust and safety on like moving the money around and like the payment providers to like— Just like think about it. Like, it's too easy. I was working on like payment provider the other day and then like he showed me, like, you just text yourself some money now. Like, that's pretty cool. But yeah, trust and safety on like the whole flow from— and dealing with trust and safety both in the social setting, but like keeping the social side happy and healthy, keeping the marketplace happy and healthy. And then when you do go to You know, take it all out or deal with chargebacks, deal with all the craziness, like handling all that. 'Cause yeah, it's nuts.

Yeah, I love this point, man, you mentioned, because I mean, I'm big into communities. I'm a little bit biased 'cause I've been doing that for a while, but you're right. I mean, we're talking a lot about systematic, let's call it risk factors, but community is such a big player. where, I mean, I think you all are building trust among each other just by the fact you're members of the same community. And that by itself is huge, right? It's maybe something that we don't see much. One of the things in the behavioral risks though, which is kind of like to tie back to what I mentioned, is you'll see members who get a lot of reports. So let's say they're being reported by a lot of fellow community members that will trigger something in their Persona account. So when they're trying to make a transaction, it'd be like, Oh, hold on, there's an account here for like 10 reports. Why is this person trying to do this certain thing? And that goes into like a manual review. So not only for the moderation purposes, but this person trying to transact in the platform having had a bad behavior in the community. So it's super interesting to have that mix as well.

Yeah, it's definitely a, it's a good topic as far as, you know, kind of community-driven marketplaces. So awesome. We'll wrap things up here. And actually that's a great question. I think we can post this in the community as a follow-up to, you know, ask you know, what founders and that kind of teams are doing, you know, to help, you know, to help build trust and some, you know, maybe some different ways that we can all learn from it. But yeah, thanks for taking the time to join us here today and, you know, walking us through the workshop. This is definitely super helpful and will make for a lot of great, you know, content for us to all kind of review in the community after.

So.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Thanks for the opportunity.

Thanks everyone who've been here. Appreciate your time.

Yeah, yeah.

And then last but not least, yeah, how can we learn more and kind of reach out to you?

withpersona.com/community. And you can always find me as well on LinkedIn if you need to. I'm there, same name, @jensante. You'll find me. So yeah, I'll be— I'm not in the community, I'm in the Everything Marketplace as well. If you tag me, you'll find me there.

Awesome. I really appreciate it. So, well, thanks again. And thanks everyone for joining in today.