Mia and Lauren Sundstrom on Play, Human Flourishing, and Organizational Joy

Non profit and philanthropic leaders devote their lives to the service of others. But sometimes they need a little help. Christine Michie has been deep in the work and the play of helping change makers grow their impact for decades. So whether you're ladling soup at a local shelter or attending a UN Peace conference, you need to find the balance between the heavy work and a light touch so you don't burn out. And Christine believes play is at the center of that. Welcome to the playful podcast bringing fun to the serious work of changing the world. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the playful podcast. We are bringing fun to the serious work of changing the world. And I am so excited. I am looking at my screen at Lauren Sundstrom and Mia Sundstrom, a mother and daughter combo. They are both experts in play and the daughter and granddaughter of Dr. Stuart Brown, who you all fans of the podcast will know was on one of our early episodes. We've rerun the episode and he is the preeminent researcher on play around the world and has been doing it for decades and has honored us with being on our podcast. And I got to spend time with your grandfather, with your dad up in his tree house in Carmel. And thank you both for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having us. We are thrilled to be here.

Absolutely. It's an honor.

It's so fun. This is part of. So I run series, the podcast has thematic series. And then I also have the privilege like we're going to have with this episode occasionally to drop in an episode where the people who are on the guests that are joining us are kind of working full time in the play space. Right. They're, they're play experts, they're play ambassadors, whereas our other guests are finding ways to bring play into the work. And you are, I mean that you love to hear that. I know. Because that's, that's what you want people to do of all ages in all sectors and industries. So, Mia and Lauren, I'm going to ask you something first. I often when I consult with nonprofit organizations, I suggest in terms of their messaging that they kind of carry around their board members, their senior leaders, carry around in their minds two stats and one story that kind of tells what their thing is all about, the issue and the solution to a potential problem. So if I may, Mia, can I ask you for the two stats and Lauren for you for a story about why play matters and how play matters?

Sure. I mean, play is fundamental to being human. And I think that's what our grandfather included and did in all of his research, the first stat is that 1 in 6 people struggle with loneliness. And this was from the World Health Organization report. And we work in the social sciences, and it's really hard to quantify the direct cause and effect impact that play can have on. On our socialization, on our cognitive and emotional health. But we know from the neuroscience that it is a huge contributor to healthy cognitive, emotional, and social health. So the stat that I like to share is that, you know, one in six people in this world struggle with loneliness, and play is an antidote to loneliness. For the second stat, I need to think about it. So you go, okay.

First we'll go to mom for a story and come back for another statistic. Perfect.

Yeah. The story that comes to mind is actually a story of a person who's extremely playful that I have been in contact with a lot lately, and that's Dr. Bowen White, who's on our board. And he's one of these humanitarian clowns. He's well into his 70s, but walks the talk of play more than anyone I can see. He. He has the playful trait that we talk about of being playful. He's very contagious. He engages in the state of play. It's contagious. I have. Have filmed him laughing just to have that at my side when I'm feeling down. And I feel like he's just an incredible story of play, someone who lives it. Again, he's on our board. He's serving. He understands the science. He lives it. He's still a humanitarian clown. At 79, he's going strong, and I think it's just a real testament to the power of play and what you can do with it.

Lauren, how have you seen play make him more effective and effective for such a long period of time?

You know, we talk about how play creates optimism and resilience and creativity, and you see him in action, and you see all those things in action all the time. And I think for a lot of us, you know, we. When we play, we can feel that. I certainly can. I certainly have experience where I can. You know, if I. If I stay away from play for too long and I. I'm away from it, I tend not to be quite as good a person as I can be. He's someone who just lives it in every moment. I've never seen him not live it. He'll come onto a zoom call, and he'll be upside down in the picture, and you'll be like, what are you doing? You know, but it's a way of just kind of Disarming everyone around him and ultimately just being much more effective at what he does.

All right, so now I'm going to have to you guys off screen here. I'm going to grab one of my finger puppets.

So.

Okay, here's my giraffe finger puppet. So, like, I'll do this when I'm on calls with other change makers and social justice leaders and we're talking about a big issue and a big agenda and suddenly I'll just have some finger puppets on my hand and, and I also bring them to meetings and retreats and I scatter them around and someone will say, what are these for? But they'll have them on already. I'm like that. Just, that's what they're for. Right? Just put them on and proceed. Right. So just bringing that little bit of a surprise, a little fun and joy into the conversation. Okay, Mia, what's another stat that we should know about play?

Yeah, absolutely. So kind of in a different realm of play, something that may be surprising is we like to think about play in relation to productivity because people understand play as being in opposition to work. And that's actually not true. Play can supplement work, make it more productive. And so McKinsey Co. Did a study that found that people employees are 20% more engaged and productive when there is a playful environment. And that is such an awesome stat because that's what we love to have us, to be able to give us the permission to prioritize play. Even in a workplace setting where there's expectations for outcomes and deliverables and pressure and all of those things that play can actually help with those things, that it's not a break from those things. So that's a fun, another fun stat.

Oh, I do love that. And I have really found that, you know, in the two and a half years now that I've been doing the podcast, I think when I started out in my mind it was going to be, when people came on, it would be a break for them, a break from the, the work they do and the change making and the social justice agenda. And then those listening would be, while they listened, having a break. And I found it to be the op, not the opposite, but beautifully. It's, it's an integration. It integrates into their day, it integrates into their work. And it, and then when they see each other on there's a permissioning. And I bet you all experience that too when you're talking about if, if, you know, if a, if an employee sees the boss playing, right. There's A permissioning around that. How do you, how do you introduce play effectively into an organization? You know, maybe doesn't see itself that way either. Either one of you'd love to hear about that.

I mean, I think it starts with the neuroscience because the neuroscience is what gives us the permission to understand cognitively that we're opening ourselves up to greater productivity, that we're creating the neuroplasticity and the new neural connections in our brain. When we enter that state of play that give us the creative solutions and the new ideas that we wouldn't have otherwise, that's the permission piece. And then to understand how to actually implement it in the culture, it starts with leadership, like you just mentioned, right? For leaders to model playfulness and a balance in playfulness and the ability to create a space where mistakes are honored and celebrated, where it's okay to experiment, where failure is a wonderful thing that is kind of the basis of that culture. And how you do that is honestly as simple as through language. Playful. Language matters. Theories are rigid, ideas are playful. We can play with ideas, you know, like creating some of those, those norms around the language that we use, around play around. Experimentation is a really healthy way to just start to transform the culture and then adding in just little things. It doesn't have to be big little icebreakers, little break rituals, play spaces in the environment that are actually used. A lot of times we see organizations who add in these play spaces because they've heard that it's productive, but actually the culture doesn't support play and so people don't use them. So figuring out how to implement the ping pong table into a meeting, maybe one on ones happen there instead of just having it as a space where people don't feel like they can use it because they feel like they need to be doing the work. So kind of just shifting those little things is actually what transforms a culture in the end. And that's kind of what we try to do and try to communicate, is that it doesn't have to be these huge shifts. Even just simple things like language and modeling and adding in five minute sets of play into the day can make a big difference.

Fantastic. Lauren, you are, you're both involved with. Lauren, you serve on the board of the National Institutes for Play that your grant that your, your dad, your grandfather started. Tell us about nifp. What's its, maybe what's been its mission and is it changing? Is it fine tuning? Is it sharpening in any different way?

Yeah, absolutely. So we are the trusted nucleus for play research and we Want to be the ones collaborating to advance play, scientific foundation and champion play as a public health necessity. We want that to be a message that people understand applies to everyone throughout their lifetimes. And we want to just be the central resource for that space, Particularly given the mental health crisis that Mia talked about, that we all know about. We feel like the moment is now and we can meet it. My dad, yes, he founded this a number of years ago. He's truly an academic. He lived, devoted his life to the science of play. He's taught at Stanford. A lot of it has quite honestly been in his brain. And as Mia and I have gotten involved, we're trying to unlock that a bit and understand all the applications for this knowledge, for this permission to play, for this science that's so powerful. And we are trying to create partnerships. We're going to start a certification program. We want to have an online curriculum. And we're just trying to amplify his legacy and broaden the reach that we think the world is really ready for here.

Love it. For those who did not hear and please tune into the episode with Dr. Stuart Brown, which I said has run twice. For those who haven't heard it yet. What would you share? I have. I have told his story many times, but you're way closer to it than me. What should people know about that original. The Tower commission and that original research?

Absolutely. So he started out as a young psychiatrist studying the most. The worst of the criminals, the homicidal prisoners, mass murderer. And what he found as a common thread through all of those studies was that those folks did not play. A lot of times that was suppressed. It wasn't available to them. Them. But that was a common thread and so it really got his attention. So as his career developed, he kept it as a thread in his psychiatric practice and asked people when he was getting to know them in psychiatry, you know, tell me about your play history. Tell me what you've done. And he felt that just generally speaking, people who had played had stronger mental health and people who hadn't had more. More of a discernment toward depression, anxiety and. And, you know, not, not, not a strong mental. Mental health. I could me say. Let me say that over.

Okay, team, we're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna restate this last piece. Go ahead.

Yeah.

So through his psychiatric career, he understood through taking play histories that the people who played tended to have a stronger mental health than people who didn't. And he continued that research and then took it into the animal world. He got to know Jane Goodall, God rest her soul. My goodness, what a massive loss for everyone. She was on our board. They've been lifelong friends. And so that of the human brain and animals at play, I think really brought this to life and ultimately allowed just what Mia described, which is, there's really something to this. It's scientifically proven and people need to pay attention.

I've had such fun over the years now doing the podcast of referencing, of course, Dr. Brown, but also the beautiful, fabulous, famous polar bear and husky dog video and that play. Val. And when we're thinking about bringing people together, you can imagine the folks that I talk to, there's a lot of conversation right now, polarization and people, you know, the sense that we're binary. You're either this or you're that and that. Like if you can have a. If you can have a play bow mentality, when you're engaging with someone with a different perspective, how that welcomes the conversation in a new way. Mia, I want to ask you. Your mom was talking about play and play histories. I know you were a competitive athlete all through your life, including at the college level. You've also served as a coach. How might we have people round out thinking about how does competitive team sport play? What does that provide? And then what does it not provide that you need to augment with something else?

Yeah, absolutely. But first the polar bear and the sled dog. We just have to have a moment for the polar bear and the sled dog. For anyone who has not seen that and heard of it, it is like the quintessential play example in nature. And there's so much that we can learn from animals. And I think it's just this magnificent display of the way that play can dissolve our differences and remind us what we have in common and that it becomes a universal language. We can see it in others and then we can mirror it and it connects us and builds this basis of trust. That is what we need to create community and belonging and the antidote to all the things that we're struggling with. And yeah, that's my grandpa talks about. If only the world leaders who disagree so adamantly about so many things could just play. They'd realize how much they have in common because it's what fundamentally, fundamentally makes us human. So just a nod to the polar bear and the sled dog for that message, because it's so great. Yeah. In terms of competitive play, I love that you brought that up. There are a lot of different types of play. Competitive play is out there. For us, right? Our world cherishes it. We cherish the achievements and the outcomes and seeing athletes excel at the highest levels and thrive under pressure, and that's wonderful. And it is a type of play for many people and for some people it's totally not. And so as a high level athlete myself, and then as a coach, one of the things that I really tried to identify is what is the athlete's intrinsic motivator. Now, intrinsic motivator is also could be described as a play style. So my grandpa kind of identified eight play styles. We'll probably get to this later. But this idea that everybody has a unique activity that gets them into that state of play, that allows them to enter a flow state and perform at a really high level, for some people, that is the thrill of competition. Those folks are a little bit rare sometimes that love to just like they compete for the sake of competition and it makes them alive and they do their best and they feel their best in those moments. For some people who reach a high level of sports is that they love to explore that they love to try new things, see new people, be in new places, that that's their intrinsic motivator. For some athletes, they like to collect things, whether that's accolades or different places or things. And for some, and this was actually the case for me, it's just that they love to just move their body and that movement is play for them. And so identifying athletes really unique intrinsic motivators and play styles is a really great way to help bring out the best in them in a performance aspect, but more importantly, to make sure that what they're doing remains intrinsically motivated and is not stamped out and burned out by extrinsic pressures and expectations and all of the things that come with growing up in a really high pressure sport environment. So that was one of my main drivers as an athlete, was to stay in touch with my own play personality under moments of intense pressure as a performance tool, and then to help my athletes find that so that they stayed intrinsically motivated and didn't burn out, I love it.

I remember part of the conversation I had with your dad and grandfather. I think we were talking about kids playing soccer, for example, and, you know, thinking that that's what's happening. There's a soccer game going on, our soccer practice. And then he said, but look over on the sidelines and look at the kids kicking the Gatorade bottle around, or you know, what else is happening, you know, which somebody might say, oh, come on now, they need to pay attention. But they're actually, they're playing while the other plane is happening and the equal importance of both of those things and for grown ups to be careful to not say, well, that, come on, stop doing that. Like, that's not okay. You have to not behave like, let them continue to play on the sideline because they need that play too.

Yes. And unstructured. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

I was going to say, in Mia's case, out on the soccer field, she would be doing cartwheels and round offs and having no interest in soccer. Yeah, totally pay attention to that too. Yeah.

Yes, yes.

There's all the indicators kids will give you, all the indicators of what's actually playful for them versus what you think they should be doing for play. But that's the other piece of sports too, that's really important is to give that unstructured time because that's when you discover what kids truly love about the craft, whatever that may be. Or more importantly, if they don't love it and if they don't love it, to help them find something that they do love. Maybe it's not a sport, maybe it's in arts or music or theater, maybe it's something totally different. But yeah, that unstructured time is also something that we've lost in this ambition for high achievement. And what's interesting is the unstructured time, much like in a work setting, that's when the great creative solutions and things happen. That's when the mastery becomes a joy. That's where all of this good stuff happens, is the space in between. And we've lost a lot of that with kids in highly demanding sports.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I think, and Laura and I, you and I are probably roughly the same genre and age. You know, we made, we, we played make believe all the time because we couldn't just snap our fingers and have the thing in front of us. Right. Or conjured up. We would play restaurant and we would play school and we would like. Oh my God, I remember like taking all the books out of my mom and dad's bookcase, laying the bookcase down on the floor in the middle of the front room and making a banquet.

Right.

You know, and then we had a banquet table and we had a banquet party, you know, and making up dances and making our parents buy tickets to come watch us do a dance in the front room. And I hope that that's still happening and, or I hope that through all of your efforts that we are unlocking that and giving the parents and the teachers and the coaches the Playful perspective that all of that is to be embraced.

Absolutely. I think we're making progress in that regard. And we were super lucky because we live in Boulder and my husband and I were able to send our kids to some really play based alternative schools. Again, super fortunate. And Boulder, very, very bolder. You know, there, there's, there's, there's a little more time and space here. I think there's definitely still the pressure that you see everywhere else. But, but Mia attended a Waldorf preschool that was, was all about, you know, freedom and you know, fantastically run by Mindy Upton and just a wonderful place. And then, and then the kids attended a K through 8 charter school that had very limited, limited homework, grades or tests. So it was really a leap of faith that we were willing to take largely because, you know, we were informed by my, by my dad's work.

Lauren, as you were growing up and your dad's research, you know, continued and deepened, how did that affect, you know, him as a dad and you and the activities and vacations or opportunities and how was it? And did you feel like you were being studied?

You know, not so much because a lot of it came later. Later. And really the most instructive way that it's, it's come through my life is again, the way that I've raised the kids with my husband. It's always been out there and we've always known it's important, but it's been, you know, we've been able to really, really follow that for, for the kids, for Mia and Leo and, and it's interesting to hear their stories about when they transitioned out of this very unusual K through 8 education into more traditional education because again, and you know, you definitely were all about, you know, it'd be great to go to college and you know, all of that. You don't want to, you don't want to be so free form that you have to function in society. Of course. So I might swing it back to Mia to talk about that a little bit.

Thank you. I mean I have like the, you know, the one generation through a perspective. But for me it was this like, I feel like I was just born into play and then I'm just evidence of the power of play. And that's why I'm passionate about it. It's because I've just experienced it my whole life. And with my grandpa, it was him swinging me for hours on the rope swing at his house and climbing up to the treehouse and having these amazing play spaces available to us where he could Engage with us in the states of play. Those are some of my most vivid memories as a kid. And then with the schooling, oh my gosh, it was so fun. I was such a movement based kid. I had a hard time learning how to read while I was sitting still. And instead of that becoming a problem and me being flagged as, you know, a problem, my teachers just let me bounce on a ball while I learned how to read and it solved the problem. And I am standing on balance balls as we talk, just because I've learned that that works for me and that's how I can engage. And so it was such a wonderful stepping stone to be able to send me into a traditional place to thrive. And what was cool is all my peers were like so burnt out from the school system and from grades and tests and all of these things. And I came in and I'm like, this is fun. Like, homework is cool. It's novel. And going into high school that way, I had earned and kind of been given this amazing love of learning. And so that remained. And then the traditional system I was able to feel was new and novel, so I wasn't burned out from it. So anyway, I'm just very lucky to have had my mom and my dad and my grandpa to be like, we're gonna raise these kids in this way and see how it goes. So hopefully it works out.

I don't know, you know, it sure seems like it. It seems you're. You're a walking, talking advertisement for it. The power of it and the joy that comes from it.

Lauren, I'm sure we made plenty of mistakes along the way.

Well, Lauren, it sounds like you chose, you know, both. Both a physical, you know, geographical place, Boulder. And also places to hang out with the kids, you know, the special schools and all that. But did you ever find yourself having to explain your style or approach to other parents who thought it was weird or non traditional or maybe not appropriate?

You know, definitely, definitely early on. Like in those early years where you're trying to figure out the preschool and, you know, it's kind of like those dreadful New York stories where you hear about people who think that their entire child's life is going to be impacted by which preschool they get into. And there are definitely people like that here and people in my circle who were all about that, you know. No, no, you got to teach them to read. You got to give them Baby Einstein. You got to do this, this and this. So I think, I think there was a bit of that. But really, again, super fortunate to live in this community and to have had just the confidence to say we're going to do it this way, it's going to be a lot more fun. And you know, interestingly, you know, Mia chose gymnastics quickly and really went on a fast track there. So it was, it's a very, very tough sport. It's not a great sport for a lot of people, but it was very much her passion. So I feel like we were constantly pulling back on her a bit like, hey, you sure you want to do this? You sure you want to this? You know, it took a lot, but again, it was always really playful for her and very, very intrinsically motivated.

Awesome. I want to ask another research science question. Then we're going to step away and get our ice cream cookies treats. Mia, is the science important for people to take it serious and understand that it should be viewed as. Can be viewed as leadership, a motivation, etc. Tool just like any others. And the play personalities, I've often said as I've talked about them, you know, kind of just like Myers Briggs or any of these other ones, strength finders, you know, I will encourage nonprofit leaders to add this into the mix. Another way to have your team understand each other and stand about themselves. So I think I blended a couple questions there together, but tell me how you found the science to be a gateway to actually more play.

Oh my gosh. The science is the foundational gateway. And that's why my grandpa's work, we're so fortunate to have it in this world and all of the other amazing play researchers out there, like, that is truly why we're able to do this work. So like, the science is always going to be the most important and we need to continue it. We need to continue the research. There is still so much that we don't know. And again, it's not ever going to be like trying to quantify these social science outcomes about play. We can't do that statistically necessarily, but we need to continue the research. And really what it comes down to for me with the science is three things. And this is what I try to communicate to people. Play is foundational for healthy outcomes in cognitive growth, emotional health, and social health. And those are foundations of what it is to be truly human and foundations for our longevity. And so for cognitive health, it's because it produces bdnf. So it's a protein called brain derived neurotrophic factor. So when we enter this state of play, this protein is secreted and it creates new neural pathways, which is the foundation for Cognitive long term health and learning. And that is true through our entire lifespan, not just for kids, because neuroplasticity is true through our entire lifespan. For emotional health, our amygdala calms down when we play. So our amygdala is our emotional processing center and it stores memories to trigger fight or flight and is our stress response. So when we play, our stress is way less reactive, our emotional defensiveness is down. We're way more open, like we talked about earlier with being open to new ideas and perspectives as well. And then third, our social health, this is so important. Our mirror neurons light up when we play and those are what attune us to each other. So they attune us to the movements of each other and they help us sort of tap into each other's rawest emotions and connect in this new way that builds this trust and belonging. And so those three pillars of what play activates in our brain is so fundamental. Then what the play personalities give us is sort of how we access that, because that access point is different for everybody. It's totally unique. It's like a fingerprint and it can evolve throughout our lives. So what activities activate those things for us? And then how can we leverage those in the workplace, in our lives, in the way we communicate, in our strengths, in what we do, in our parenting, in coaching, whatever that looks like. So to me, it's like the science is the grounding and the permission, and then the play personalities is the access point and the way to actually implement it back into our lives if we've lost it, which a lot of us have.

Oh, beautiful. Okay, so let's take a moment, let's go get our treats and I'm going to tell everybody about Taharka Brothers while you step away and come on back, everybody. Taharka Brothers, if you're not familiar, is the ice cream sponsor for the playful podcast. And they have been supplying our guests with ice cream. And Mia is going to tell you about the delivery because it's so fun to talk about. And they ship nationwide. It's Taharka T A H A R K A Bros Ice Cream Takar Bros. They're based in Baltimore, they're a social enterprise, they're employee owned and they were started also out of a tragedy. A young black man was killed and the community came together and said, we need more opportunities. How can we keep this from happening? And the story I've heard is that it started out, you guys will love this. It started out they had janitorial services and they had Landscaping. They were trying to figure out kind of a company to start that could provide jobs in the community. And somebody said, we need something more fun. And they came up with, how about an ice cream company? Which is now what it is. Okay, so, Mia, what did you choose? And tell me about the box and the delivery.

Oh, my gosh. First of all, my mom can confirm for you, because I'm sure it was an absolute headache for her for my entire life. I love ice cream.

Oh, good.

It is my favorite thing in the world, and I've never had it delivered to me, and I didn't even know that was possible. And I got this beautiful pink box. I live in this apartment. And it came in my little, like, Luxor package. This, like. So I typed in a code and opened it up, and there's this beautiful pink box. And I'm like, how the heck is there ice cream in here? Like, I don't even understand. Like, when you said you deliver ice cream, I'm, like, envisioning I'm gonna have to be home and then, like, transport it to the fridge. Like, this is just the coolest delivery I've ever gotten from anyone. So just so you know that, because I love ice cream so much. But then I bring this box up, and there's these, like, bags of dry ice in there, keeping the ice cream cold. And my roommate was in, and I'm like, help me open. This is the coolest thing ever. And I am so excited. It was fun to open it. It was, like, the biggest reveal package. Like, I felt like I was. This was, like, the best thing ever. So I can't decide. I'm gonna. I'm gonna eat it all. I have two with me right now because that. I don't feel like more than two is, you know, very appropriate at the moment. It's 10am on a Monday, but. But I have the chocolate ice cream with chocolate cookie crumble swirl. Let's see. Oh, amazing. And cookie dough. Brown sugar ice cream with gobs of cookie dough.

Okay.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh. I'm a chocolate. I'm a chocolate gal. I can't get away from it.

So.

And this. Have you now.

Have you tried it yet, or have you waited until right now?

I've waited. It was hard.

Impressive. Yes.

I waited.

Okay, so you're gonna about to experience it. Like you. I'm someone who eats a lot of ice cream and love ice cream has always been. I worked at Baskin Ramens when I was 14. I was kind of, like, from then on. This is Some of the best ice cream I've ever had. And so me. This is. And listen to this fun thing. They told me. You're gonna love this. This kind of. They said something like six pints. That's how much they. And that's the minimum order that if you want it to ship nationwide. Guess what they told me they keep each other cold.

Oh, my God.

Is that the cutest thing?

That's genius. I was also astounded by the six pints. Like, I was expecting, like, a little single serving. And when I opened the six pints, I was so excited.

So, okay, now, Lauren, what did you choose? Because I understand that you don't get to have maybe as much ice cream as you might like.

So lame. You can't play this.

She just has a lot of allergies. That's all.

I do my A1C would not appreciate the ice cream. But I tell you what, I do have amazing memories of eating massive amounts of chocolate ice cream sometimes at 10 in the morning with my dad. He was a chocolate ice cream freak. So I've had, I think, enough in my lifetime to qualify. So, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. This is so good.

Isn't it amazing? Oh, my God.

Oh, my gosh.

Okay, so I'm having. And me, I suspect you've got.

At least I hope you have a

honey Graham or a salted honey Graham in there. So I'm having the salted honey gram. And now I feel bad in front of Lauren to be going on and on about the ice cream, but you're gonna find that all the chunks and things they put in are amazing. And then in the honeygram, like, think about graham crackers as a kid, right? That kind of crunchy, grainy quality they have.

So it, like, somehow in the ice

cream, it stays, like, all crunchy and amazing. And there's also a key lime, where it's Key lime ice cream with graham cracker swirl.

I got that one, too.

Okay. You're gonna be loving it. Okay.

These, like, chocolate gobs, they're, like, perfectly mixed in.

I know.

I don't think you can. It doesn't do it justice. It's like, half brownie, half fudge in ice cream. I don't know how they achieve that.

So, folks, you can have this experience, too. I'd love to ask people to support Taharka Brothers ship nationwide. As I said, hot pink box on your doorstep. So, Lauren, tell me about. So I usually ask when we're eating the ice cream, what's the scoop on how you came to Care. And I feel like this. You know, a lot of this whole episode in this conversation has been about growing up and the influence of your dad and Mia, your grandfather. Lauren, tell me about adding on to that a story or a memory of understanding that this was all beyond just you and your family, that this was a. There was a contribution you. All that your dad was making and you wanted to make in the broader world, not just like. Like, oh, we have a lot of fun, but no, like, we want to contribute. And the world is bigger than just my immediate circle.

Yeah.

I mean, ultimately, it's such a profound privilege to be in this position of, you know, my dad has devoted his life to this again, and I. To be able to be part of the team that's taking the baton and trying to carry this body of work forward that's not only scientific, but very, very deeply human is just. It's a tremendous opportunity. And for me, really, the goal isn't to replicate his legacy, but to help it grow and to translate the science of play into modern contexts. Like, we've been talking about, you know, workplaces, education, public health. And I see it kind of as continuing the story that he began while widening the circle as best we can through wonderful podcasts like this. We're just trying to broaden our reach. We're trying to get really creative. You know, whether it be partnering with businesses, whether it be, again, creating online curriculum trainings. Anything that we can do to get that message out is what we're trying to do. And that involves bringing in new voices, new generations, new applications. And again, mostly, I just feel gratitude that I get to help ensure his message keeps evolving and reach people who might never have imagined that play could change their lives.

Lauren, who should call? Who should call nifp? And what would they ask for?

So we want to be, as I said, the nucleus for researchers, educators, teachers, businesses. Really, anyone who can understand the power of play wants to understand it better and wants to bring it into the world. So we're based in science, and that's what sets us apart, is that scientific grounding. And we'd like to do more research projects and be involved in those. There definitely needs to be way, way more research on the power of play. You know, we've got some really wonderful grounding studies that Mia mentioned, but any of so. So researchers should call us, educators should call us, businesses that are interested in putting play into their branding is, again, a really great way for us to get the message out. And I'll give you an example. We. We partnered with the visit with Visit California, which is the entity that tries to get folks to visit California, they rebranded their. Their tagline as California is the ultimate playground. And they didn't want this to just be really fluffy. They wanted science behind it. And so we provided that to them. We did a big research study. We were available to journalists. And that, I think, was a really terrific thing for us because they found new ways of getting the message out. And it was great for them because it helped solidify their brand. So we don't endorse products, but we can stand behind an awful lot of that kind of messaging.

I love it. Thank you so much. Mia, I want to ask you about your role at the University of Denver. You have an additional role in addition to your work at nifp, where you're working at the university level on character development. Is that what I understand?

Yeah, absolutely. I do appreciate you asking my mom a bunch of questions so I could enjoy my ice cream.

I know I was.

And I.

That's what I got to eat, too, while she was answering.

Yeah. Yeah. That was awesome. Yeah. So the University of Denver has just been an amazing home for me for really, the past eight years. Did my undergrad and graduate degree there. And through my time as an athlete, I got to know the chancellor really well. And his name is Jeremy Haefner. And he's a really playful guy. He is awesome. He's whimsical. He has, like 60 pairs of converse that he likes to wear, and they're all different colors and they're seasonal, and that's all he wears around campus. And you see him riding his bike around and he swims at lunch. Talk about permission to play from the top. He swims at lunch almost every day or does a workout at lunch. And because he knows that that space for him is where he has the time to think. And then he'll be way more productive in the afternoon hours that he'll make up that. That hour that he was not working. So I've actually started doing the same thing. That permission to take that break to Excel is really awesome. So just a small aside there, but yeah, what he has created in terms of higher education. Higher education is going through a lot right now. That could be an entirely separate episode. But we've really needed to reposition the value proposition of higher education in a new way. And so his way to do that has been through this idea called the four dimensional student experience, which is this idea that we deliver on more than just a degree that you are. That you are growing in four different dimensions as a student at the University of Denver. And that's first intellectual growth, that's well being, that's character development, and that's purpose. So those are kind of the four dimensions that programming and all sorts of different things are revolving around at the university. He sort of tasked me with thinking about what does character development look like to you? What is the role of higher education in helping students to explore character with this kind of context. I have in a background in high level athletics and so I have just, you know, dove into this work. It's a ton of fun. And what I have discovered is that there's a huge relationship between play and character. That play is actually a really safe space for us to practice and learn about ourselves and the strengths of character and to form those neural pathways that we need in a safe environment so that when life hits us with something really hard, we've practiced that and we've done it before and we're able to pull from something. Think about resilience. Falling down and getting up a thousand times during play doesn't feel that hard, but when we practice that, we're able to pull from it in hard moments. So what I'm actually doing right now is developing a set of play based character workshops for students. And it's going to bring them to student athletes, to fsl, Greek life, to ras, to clubs and where all these different places that students already kind of live and embed it more in the university. And so thinking about play in relation to resilience, into relation to curiosity, to accountability, to all of these different character traits that we need in the world where play is the grounding, sort of experiential component of learning about the character trait.

I love it. Okay, fantastic.

So good.

I want to. We're going to kind of wrap up with a couple things. First of all, I think this is the first time I've said this on the podcast. I'm going to be a grandma for the first time. Coming up in about six weeks. So any recommendations for being a playful grandma from the start with this little baby? Anything I should think, I mean, someone's going to suspect just come natural from the joy. But, but anything. Anything I should know about, about parenting and grandparenting playfully?

Oh, Christine, I'm sure you're going to be great. You've got this dialed. You're. You'll be fantastic. But I think like Mia said earlier, just recognizing what direction does that child want to go and honoring that is really terrific. And it's kind of amazing that play is Embedded subcortically in our brains. It's something that you can do and that your new grandchild can do really equally. And so hopefully, it will bring that out in you and it will bring that out in the child. And I'm envious.

Great.

Congratulations.

Oh, boy.

I'm so excited.

All right.

And then. And then I wouldn't say to the other side, because it's all integrated, right. Because all part of me, I have, as you know, I have a. I have a practice in the philanthropic sector. My consulting work and a lot of our audience are people working full time in philanthropy and in the nonprofit sector. Do you have a call to action for philanthropy, especially during these times that are really challenging for people working in the social sector, for the nonprofit leaders to have the courage to play, even when instinct might be like, there is absolutely no extra bandwidth to play? We need to be serious about these hard times. And how can philanthropy support play and playfulness for the leaders doing the work?

Oh, such a great question. I mean, fundamentally, an investment in play is an investment in human and societal flourishing. That is what this research says. That is what the science says. If you want to permeate with your dollars, with your money, something that is going to spread positivity and joy and optimism through the world in a time when we need it more than ever, it is an investment in play. It is the root. That is a root investment. That is what can multiply. And that's the work that we're trying to do. We're trying to be the multipliers, though, the investments. I mean, truly, that is an investment in play, is an investment in human flourishing. And that is just, like, so powerful. And so I hope that that's a call to action for philanthropists. And then on the nonprofit leadership side, it kind of comes back to that same thing of one of my grandpa's favorite quotes is the opposite of play isn't work, it's depression. So it's this Just reframing our thought process and our perceptions of the way the world works to think about play not as an opposition to work, but as a supplement to it and as something that unlocks all of these awesome things. So I think those are the two big calls to action.

Excellent. Lauren, anything you want to add?

I think Mia answered that really, really well. You know, again, people think of play as not productive, but I think that just needs to be turned on its head. And once that is, it can just offer a whole host of benefits.

I have this Carl Jung quote that I include in the guest brief which is quote the creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect but by the play instinct. And that's that I keep centering myself around that. I also centering a lot around imagination. We haven't talked much about that, talked a little bit about play and pretending. But imaginative thinking right now, stoked by playfulness is going to help us solve some of these problems that we haven't previously solved. Okay ladies, nifp.org I know is where people can follow the work. I know that the website is getting better and deeper and adding more parts to it. The work is going to show up there. People can follow you there. Also please folks know that you'll all be sending me links to include in the show notes so people can to get to the latest of what's going on and super grateful. Please say hi to Dr. Brown and and I'm just grateful. What a thrill. I've spoken to three generations of a family. What a delight. Thank you so much for all the work you're doing bringing fun to the serious work of changing the world.

Thank you. It has been such a fun conversation. We played with great ideas and with ice cream so that obviously helps a lot, you know. But thank you so much for having us. It's truly a pleasure.

All the best. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Hey everybody. Thanks so much for listening to the playful podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know of a leader or organization that's doing good in the world and you'd love to help us help them amplify their message. I would love to have them on the show. Go to the show notes and click there or go to impactfulinc.com contact and that's impactful with 2L's Inc. And let us know who you're thinking about. Can't wait to see you next time.