Disaster preparedness: Why eliminating full-time virtual learning is a bad idea

Welcome to the future of education. I'm Michael Horne, excited about the conversation we're going to have today because it's not just me and one other person, but we're going to have a robust conversation because we have Julie Young, who leads ASU Prep digital online offering from Arizona State targeted at K12 students. She's been on the podcast before and we've talked about a lot of the opportunities and trends around online learning, particularly coming out of the pandemic. And then our friend John Bailey, who's a visiting fellow at AEI among the, or, excuse me, fellow at AEI among the many hats that he wears in the education and policy spaces. But he has been doing an incredible job of standing up a daily newsletter of the latest developments, all things Covid and the pandemic and how it impacts education. He was on the Class Disrupted podcast that Diane Tavener and I do with each other and just really illuminated a lot of different dynamics that are occurring as we think about what reopening schools means and the like and what we've learned from all of this and the role of politics. So I'll bring them up right now because they're two of my favorite people who have a lot of insight to shed in this topic. But I want to start because, John, just a moment ago, before we jumped on Live here, you made the observation that a bunch of us are thinking, hey, school is going to be normal next year. We're just excited to go back in person and so forth. But based on what we're seeing in the UK right now around the Delta variant and its spread, those assumptions might not be the right ones. So can you give us a sense of the state of play around Covid right now, particularly as it impacts kids and what we perhaps should be prepared for in the United States?

Great. So good to be with the two rock stars on this.

I'm just, I have to look for the other one, but keep going.

Yeah. So, like, I think you know what you're seeing right now, and I think some of this is just psychological. Like, we want to go back to normal. And the vaccines have enabled so much of return to normalcy that it's just human nature to just sort of say, gosh, like, it means we can probably reopen schools for in person instruction next year. And a lot of people are sort of looking forward to that. You see, public policymakers, like these whole sort of bans around online learning sort of reflect the fact that they assume that we can all bring kids back safely into the classrooms next Year. The one sort of dark cloud on the horizon that I think we all need to be paying attention to is the variant of COVID called Delta. This is originally the variant that came from India. And what we're seeing is that it's much more transmissible than previous variants. And it is really throwing off the education system in the UK right now where we have over 300,000 kids that have been forced to again go back and shelter in place and home. In part because what happens is these kids are catching this more transmissible variant. They're showing up at schools, COVID testing is, is identifying it and then that's triggering a bunch of sort of quarantining and isolation for not just that infected student, but also for all their classmates. The thing is, is that again, Europe has very much sort of foreshadowed what we experience here in the US and so if it is creating that much havoc in the UK right now, I think it's fair for us to start planning for that type of disruption here in the fall. The reason there's some vulnerability to this here in the United States too is because, yes, teachers are vaccinated, but what we're seeing is that teens are, their vaccination rates are all over the place. In some states it's about 30% of teens have received the vaccine. In Idaho it's less than 1%. And so that means that again, a highly transmissible variant with a low vaccinated population just create some challenges for what this could look like in the, in the fall here.

Well, it's sobering, John, to hear you say that. Before I go to Julie, just, just one follow up, which is are, are you seeing in the data? It seems clear that kids are more likely to get the Delta variant than past variants or the, or the mainstream one we initially experienced in the United States. Right. That it's more transmissible. Are you seeing that the impact from a health perspective is more severe on unvaccinated kids as well? Or is it similar in terms of, you know, sickness, hospitalizations, things of that nature? Like what's going on in that front?

Yeah, so we only have preliminary data, so this is, this is difficult. What they noticed is in India, kids are getting hospitalized at slightly higher rates. It's still a little unclear what's going on in the uk. Kids are still getting infected, but it doesn't seem that they're having severe disease leading to hospitalization and also not necessarily deaths. So, like that's good news. But again, it's all super preliminary and we're Going to need a lot more data and we're going to need a more nimble system. Like, you know, if you look back to like just some of the many failings we had during COVID is that we just didn't have a nimble system that could adjust to what the latest data and the research was saying. And we're going to, we're going to need that over these next two months to get ready for the new school year.

Makes a lot of sense when you say, when you put in that framing. Julie, I'd love to turn to you. What's your perspective on what next fall or this fall, I guess looks like? And what do you expect given the landscape that John just laid out of what schools are going to be contending with?

Sure. First, before I jump into that, I'll continue the love fest of these guys. I feel like we started working together 20 years ago, at least on all things online and distance learning. And so we've kind of grown up in this industry together. And it's such a privilege to be with you guys today. You know, when we think about what the fall looks like, I agree completely that everybody's thinking we're just going to go back to normal. And this news that John is sharing that has been coming out daily in regards to the Delta variant is unsettling. You know, if we think about the entire last year, everybody, you know, a lot of people just want to put it behind them. Clearly we were, you know, literally overnight forced to go home. And teachers were forced into a modality of teaching and learning that they did not know how to do or understand. And some had good experiences and some had horrendous experiences. And that applies both to the students and to the teachers and to the parents as well. We can talk more about that as we think about the fall and we think about our own schools, ASU Prep Academy, which is 10 brick and mortar schools here in the Phoenix area, and then 1k through 12 full time academy, Online Academy. We are planning to go back to school with masks optional at this point in time. We are planning to social distance, we are planning to sanitize, we are planning to be cautious. And you know, I think what parents are looking for right now are absolutes. And we don't have absolutes. We have, you know, what we know today. So what we've done and what we're recommending to, you know, part of what we do also is work with other schools and leaders and so forth all over the world to empower them to do the same kind of work that we do and what we are doing with our own schools and encouraging others to do is to really learn from this last year in terms of preparedness and really learn from this past year in terms of continuity of learning. You know, we've had Katrina in the past, We've had Charlie in the past. We've had Ebola in the past. You know, we've had these. These. These worldwide disasters of which we have not learned very well from. But over this last year, as we go forward, we are completely revamping our curriculum within our brick and mortar schools so that our brick and mortar schools and our digital academy are all going to be using the curriculum. We are providing multiple models for parents to select from and for us to be able to move in and out of if indeed the need arises. Really wanting to make sure that regardless of what happens with our students, that their learning opportunities are not interrupted. In addition, just thinking in terms of our teachers, our teachers were highly unprepared. I think we've talked many times about the lessons for our teachers, colleges all over the country in terms of that gap, and I think they've heeded what they've learned from that. But we want to build on that. So we want to make sure that our teachers really can build on all the skills they gained in a very positive manner and continue to grow in that area, as opposed to just going, okay, well, that's over. Let's go back to the way we were. So, again, just really maintaining a focus on how do we keep the continuity of learning regardless of where this virus takes us. I think we all know this virus isn't going away. The flu never went away. This virus is not going away, and it's one day at a time.

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. I'm curious, you know, I've been writing and talking a lot about how governors are banning the remote option. They're banning virtual schools. There's, you know, mayor of New York has done the same thing. You all are tracking this and keen political observers, obviously. Also, what's the dynamic in your mind behind why folks are doing this when they're banning the remote option? And perhaps the shortsightedness of it speaks for itself, given the preamble there. But I'm curious, you know, what would, for those who want to make students feel like, yeah, we can go back in person, it'll be safe, we've got your back. Are there paths that you've seen politically that are more productive out there as you look at the landscape right Now, John, maybe start with you.

Yeah, I think, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to understand like entirely what's driving some of this.

Some of it, I think if you.

Are reading best in 10 is probably to try to create some pressure to get schools to put into place. So this, this, this mindset of, yes, we're going to reopen what Julie was saying, we're going to reopen and here are all the different ways we're going to sort of put in mitigation measures to keep kids and teachers safe. So maybe that's reading and best intent, worst intent is just that. I mean, this is just the way some public policymakers sort of work, which is like sort of imposing a one size fits all model and just robbing, I think parents of agency and robbing kids of like being able to sort of pick and choose the model of learning that the best works for them. I don't think these like remote learning bands are going to stand in part because of the disruption and also because, you know, a lot of polling I'm seeing is still suggesting that families are very, very hesitant about sending their kids back to school. It's not all parents, it's not 60% of parents, but even 20%. There's just a poll that came out with Morning Consult and then Choice this week with black parents. 25% of black parents are not comfortable sending their kids back until after September. So that there's going to need to be some flexibility built into the system to accommodate some of these. The good news is that I've also been tracking like there's well over 100 school districts across the country that are going to offer, offer online learning as an option for their families. And part of this is because they're afraid, they're afraid their families are going to go to other providers or other schools that are, that have this. But part of it too is I think this goes back to, you know, some of the things you've written about, you know, Michael, with, with Christensen, like Covid was a disruptive force and it's now forcing schools to think models and new, new types of models and hopefully some, some good could come of that. So we need more of that thinking and less of this like restrictive one size all sort of model that's getting imposed on too many kids in parts of the country.

It's interesting to think about how many people might opt out of. I mean, we saw a dramatic drop right in the numbers of students enrolled in public schools this year anyway, particularly younger children who just Said, you know, families said, we're just not going to put them in kindergarten or we're not going to put them in pre K in particular. I think, John, you probably know the numbers off the top of your head, but it was like a 9% drop, I think, Right. In kindergartners or something like that. It's interesting to think that if you ban the remote option, 40, 55% of families want it, how many more people you'll drive into other options right across the country.

I mean, it's the most amazing thing. Like, I think the Department of Ed, they just released statistics this week and it's about 3% enrollment drop. That's their preliminary data that's going to vary state to state and geography to geography and grade to grade. To your point, a lot of that is in sort of the kindergarten early grades. But you're absolutely right. Like, a lot of these parents that have sort of left the public education system have done so because we've sort of forced their hand on it. Like, we, we didn't give them an option. We didn't ever sort of gave them agency to be able to say, do you want to come back to this modified in person instruction or keep learning online? And by just forcing that, it's forced parents to make different decisions. And that's going to be a hard genie to put back in the bottle. And I think to your point, some of those enrollment trends in certain parts of the country are just going to continue to sort of unveil itself, I think, is like more people sort of shift to the mode of learning that works best for their kids.

Yeah.

So Julie, take us then from there. Like. Right, like you think a lot about equipping schools and systems with this, more flexible models of learning and so forth. What's your perspective of like, what should districts and schools be doing now to prepare for the fact that families want different options? The state of the play, given the delta variant and so forth is going to necessitate probably different models on the ground. What are the steps that folks ought to be taking right now?

You know, my mom used to say two wrongs don't make a right. And you know, in this particular situation, it's like five wrongs don't make a right. And you know, if we look at what is taking place right now and the why behind it, you know, there were definitely, you know, ridiculously poorly implemented models over the last year. And so I think to some degree states are kind of like going, okay, well that didn't work. We're Just not going to allow it anymore. And, you know, this is the only way to learn. And what we know, what we all know, is for the last 20 years, as online schools and charter schools have come into our lives, parents choose with their feet. And they. I think this last year has given them a wide visibility to all kinds of options. I think they've seen things they've never seen before. I think they've also reached deep into their own kind of repertoire of capabilities. And, you know, to the point that you mentioned earlier, Michael, there's. There is a high percentage of families out there that want these options and also a high percentage of families that are not comfortable just, you know, going back to school. And so it's really interesting to me to think about the districts and the states that are going just. No, because those families are just going to leave. They've experienced. What they've experienced in the last year is, to John's point, a lot of agency, a lot of involvement. And they've seen, many of them have seen that their kids can advance and their kids can learn in a place other than a building called school. And so, you know, I think that what. What should districts be doing at this point in time is, you know, I always go back to, you know, Singapore. Wasn't it Singapore? That was the first.

Yeah. They had the E Learning Week, I think. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, 20 years ago, you know, to prepare their teachers, their families and their. For what? If there is a disaster. They were doing that before anybody was ever talking about it. And I don't understand why we are not looking at this as a country as an opportunity to build upon everything we learned last year, all the skills that our teachers and leaders gained last year to ensure that we're ready for anything. And, you know, and again, going back to the fact that, you know, families are, I think, more comfortable than ever right now walking away from their public schools if they cannot get what they feel they need. Yeah.

And so that's a dramatic difference. What are you seeing on the ground, Julie? Like, I assume you're having lots of conversations with districts that want to work with ASU Prep Digital and say, you know, we need to build this flexibility, this resilience into our system. What sorts of conversations are you having on the ground and who's doing it right in your mind?

Well, I think, you know, I'm actually pretty encouraged with Arizona in terms of a lot of the districts are reaching out. We've done a tremendous amount of. I think you all are aware we created the Arizona Virtual Teacher Institute with the governor's office, the Department of Ed, and Helios over this last year, and that will roll into next year. And those are dollars that are specifically allocated for us to train any and all teachers in the state of Ariz. On how to do this work, how to move from traditional to online to hybrid, to back and forth and in between, and do it well. And We've trained over 15,000 teachers this year and expect to continue that trajectory. In addition, we are implementing what we're calling a math Momentum program, which is also in concert with our Department of Ed, which is all very focused on, you know, whether you want to call it learning loss or learning acceleration, but depending on what you're reading, but really kind of targeting in. On identifying those needs in math. With that said, there are also the new legislation that is allowing districts, and this, I think, is the forethought of this is, I think, pretty incredible, but allowing districts to actually create their own funding model, design their own funding models. And then once those funding models are designed, there certainly will be parameters. But once those funding models are designed in terms of how you're going to track attendance or track competency or track learning and those are approved, then the accountability really reaches back to whether you're following your own model and so really giving flexibility in terms of how and where a child can be learning. So that's very exciting. I think we're also seeing, you know, I know Las Vegas is pushing the envelope there, you know, in terms of looking for new models and really educating parents on how to actually understand these models and examine these models so that they know what to look for. As always, Alberto in, you know, Miami Dade is kind of a champion of why in the world would we shut this stuff down? Why are we not taking it forward? I think there's been some adjustments in Indiana and Kentucky as well, where they're really looking at how do we not penalize our schools for trying to have multiple models and opportunities for our students? And so I do see that there are, you know, some leaders out there that are trying to embrace this as an opportunity and not just think about it. I think we're so focused on the pandemic, and the way that we've talked about it internally with our schools is forget the pandemic. What the pandemic did was give us an opportunity, a disruptive opportunity, to stretch and see that there are many different ways for students to learn, there are many different tools to use, and what do we want to continue doing regardless, and what do we want to never do again, regardless. That's the other thing we're asking ourselves, why were we doing it this way? You know, why does a parent ever have to come to school for a parent conference and sit in a kangaroo court with six teachers at 3:30 in the afternoon in the middle of the day? You know, why would we ever do that again?

Yeah, Makes a lot of sense hearing you say that. I'm intrigued by one thing and I just want to double click on it before I come back to the broader theme of disaster preparedness, which is you mentioned, Julie, the funding being changed so that districts can put funds forth their own funding model. That seems to me incredibly revolutionary and important in a way that we haven't thought enough about. You obviously did from your days at Florida Virtual School. But the more I've looked at like sort of what's holding schools back from getting to more personalized models that concern with mastery for each individual, I've become more convinced that our assessment system is one piece of it and the, the funding system is the other one that we, we fund butts and seats and therefore like behaviors are optimized. Right. To get butts and seats. Not we don't fund learning progress, for example, or we don't fund mastery. And then assessment is, you know, summative at the end of the year and so forth as opposed to as you go to figure out, you know, did someone master and looking at growth and so forth. It sounds like Arizona may be on the verge of cracking. What feels like the more difficult of those nuts? Actually the financial model is that are you starting to see districts actually take advantage of that flexibility?

Yeah, this will be the first year and so everybody right now is preparing their funding model and then we'll have to have some public hearings and so forth. But it is, yeah, I mean people are excited about it. They're really jazzed about the innovative kind of spirit of the decision makers in this regard and the opportunity for more choice in learning.

Yeah, that seems to me could be really, really significant, but something to watch. John, I'm curious because you, when you were in the White House while ago now at this point, it's amazing how time has gone by. Right. But you were thinking a lot about pandemics and what that could wreak havoc right on the United States in our response. What else in terms of disasters that could hit on the United States and worldwide, should we be even thinking about where having a more agile, flexible school system would benefit? Like, what else are we not thinking about? I guess as we think about disasters that could befall us and the preparedness that we need.

Yeah, I mean, using the word disaster, it covers a whole bunch of different things from like hurricanes down in the south to, you know, tornadoes in the, in the middle part of the country. The one area where I've seen like a number of school districts, you know, using this muscle they've built with remote learning has been because of the heat wave that's coming through right now. So like Michigan, you know, if you think about so many of these schools do not have air conditioning units. And that's particularly true out west where because the climate's been so, so temperate that it just didn't make sense. But that makes it really, really difficult to bring kids back to school when. For the summer, for summer school or for, you know, when classes reopen in August. And so like in Michigan, number of schools, one back to remote. It's happening up in the northwest right now because of the just unprecedented heat wave that they're experiencing. So I think you could imagine that, you know, just other sort of daily disruptions that kind of happen in communities, like with blizzards and in other sort of snow events. All these things can help with, you know, again, make the case for a more sort of flexible, nimble, agile sort of learning system that again, online sort of provides, you know, the pandemic too was a wake up call. Like when I worked on this in the Bush administration, like, this was somewhat theoretical at the time. The US had in the first year of the Obama administration, people sort of Forget about the H1N1 Alpha that sort of like, it captured some news, but it didn't change a ton of behaviors. But it should have also been a warning for us. And now, and now we're living in it. And the truth of the matter is, like, even if we get Covid under control, there'll be another virus at some point. And if anything this taught us is that the consequences of not being prepared and not planning and not accommodating kids, you know, can have a generation impact. Like, I think that's what I'm really worried about right now is that again, in this pursuit to just get back to normal, we're just missing like the generational harms that are happening to these kids. Just this week in Texas, we found out that, you know, 40% of the kids there just did not pass, were not a grade level on math exams. And that was in a state that was largely open. Like, I don't even have a good sense yet of kids in Los Angeles and most of California that were shut out of school for the better part of a year. What sort of academic challenges are they facing? And then we just know that today's like learning loss is tomorrow's earning loss that does different things to their education attainment, to whether they go to college, to the jobs they pursue. And it really needs an all hands on deck to kind of help with meeting these kids where they are and helping, giving them more personalized path to recovery.

Yeah. You know, the research around Katrina back in the day, the students were out of school, out of school for a semester, but the research indicated that they literally lost two years in that timeframe in terms of learning.

Wow. So I was gonna say, are you tracking the same things, Julie, that John just mentioned and making the case for a more robust disaster preparedness for the same set of reasons, or are there other things that are on your mind as well around this topic?

Yeah, you know, I'm always split between disaster preparedness and how do we actually accelerate learning in new and different ways and use this as a catalyst to, to do so. And you know, okay, so shame on us what happened in the last year. Shame on us as a country. We weren't prepared for it. And our students and families and our teachers certainly, you know, bore the brunt. But then there's a whole bunch of families out there that had a remarkable experience and realized learning gains and, you know, incredibly new and different ways of learning and family dynamics and so forth. And so I think that again, we are such an all or nothing in the education space in the US it's like if we can't do it all, then we can't do anything for anybody. And it's such a short sighted way to look at the, the work that we do. And you know, I always think of, you know, well, imagine if that happened in the medical field. Okay, so we don't have flu shots today for everybody, so nobody gets any on Tuesday. So, you know, it's just such a, it's so interesting when you look at it, you know, from, from a different lens and so. But I do think a lot about the disaster preparedness. I mean, look at all the cyber attacks that are going on and, and different things in terms of our water and the heat, to John's point about the heat, it's incredible. We don't know what's ahead of us. There's crazy things going on right now in terms of the weather and just the world in general. And so how do we not think about today and think about tomorrow Just.

To double click on that, you mentioned cybersecurity. That's an area that I've been tremendously worried about that a lot of institutions, not just K12, higher ed as well, have been moving online without thinking about the risk from a cyber hacking, cybersecurity perspective. And so, you know, our response to this disaster, if you will, will beget the next disaster. And you think just how, how much worse we would have been off 20 years ago before the infrastructure existed to move online as we did, even as shaky as it was. I'm curious how you both think about the cybersecurity question and like what does it mean districts or schools ought to be looking at as they're thinking about standing up this virtual option. Julie, you want to go first?

Well, I mean we've hired, in the last six months, we hired a full time security officer specifically for ASU Prep. And of course, course it is a constant, constant topic, top of mind at asu, all of us going through training at least once a year, if not twice. And we know hundreds of thousands of threats a day come through. And so it's again, kind of like you have to have your eyes wide open, recognizing that this is part of it. Almost like when you go out to drive your car, you have to be cautious, you have to be aware, you have to, you know, be be aware of what's around you as you're, as you're driving. And so it is top of mind, absolutely top of mind. And I think it cannot be taken too lightly. And I think also at the same time though, people will use it as an excuse not to go virtual.

John, your take.

No, I think, I think you're absolutely right. Like, I mean, you know, there's sort of two concerns that kind of pop up for me. Like one is, is privacy that, you know, like there's a lot of data privacy compliance that schools need to wrestle with with digital tools, not just like Ferpa and not just some of the federal laws, but also a lot of state laws that have sort of been passed over the last decade since in bloom, you know, had its demise. And it generated a lot of privacy laws. And so there's just that being sensitive on the fact that every sort of new digital tool brings with it like an extra needed vigilance for, for privacy protecting kids data super important there. And then also like I agree with both of you that on the cybersecurity side, you know, like the more services go online, the more attractive of a target that becomes for different types of hackers. And sort of in cyber threats. Then you also have just sort of like the dumb attacks which, you know, happen a lot with ransomware, which is just, you know, decimating other parts of the sector. But I think we saw like there was a ransomware attack that just happened in Baltimore and it shut their, their system down for a couple days. And some of this, it requires constant vigilance because the tactics change, the tools change, the vulnerabilities and in other systems and softwares change. But it really needs to be a higher priority just to make sure. And also it just, it lends itself too, to partnering with people that, you know, are focused on this. Like, I worry a lot about, you know, many of us would never sort of set up our own sort of server farms to do email. Like, we just outsource that to the cloud now. And there's a, there's an element of like, if you can outsource that to trusted providers and trusted folks that, you know, are focused on this, it'll just give you that extra layer of protection too, to some degree.

I think that's a really important point, John, because I've seen a lot of people push back and say, well, gosh, why should districts start their own virtual schools? And it's sort of like, I don't know that districts are going to be running all parts of the virtual schools, but they might have their own option. They partner with ASU Prep Digital for curriculum and teacher training. They partner with this software provider for X and they're putting it together. It's not saying that their teachers are going to be doing every single element of it and the backbone. And I think you're right, some places will, and that probably increases the cybersecurity risk significantly. Last sort of question for both of you as we, as we wrap up, which is I'm curious because a lot of folks have come to me and said, how should we figure out who should have access to these remote learning options? Like under the assumption that, you know, we know it doesn't work for everyone. And so how do we think about that? And I want to give you a little bit of my answer to that and hear you both push back or agree, which is that if we look at the full time virtual school space before the pandemic, I do think it's fair to say that some of those providers overgrew who they were originally serving and started to serve students who were unlikely to be successful in their particular virtual school for any number of reasons. The support systems of the school, the intentions of the Families coming in to use it as a transition ground, whatever it might be, be. And there was, before the pandemic, there was a pretty big backlash against full time virtuals in the charter school sector space and reform movements and other places. But if you'd gone back 10 years earlier when they were serving smaller, more discrete populations, the outcomes were generally better, it seemed for me. And so in some ways I think it overgrew some of whom it should have been served. But the risk, on the other hand, I think of, of sorting people on the front end is like you can't predict based on demographic characteristics or things of that nature for whom this is going to work or whatnot. And so what I've been advising people is two things. One, just make sure that there's an adult who will be on site with any student who's jumping into this experience. And that could be a parent, it could be a guardian, it could be in a micro school or podcast, and so it's someone else's guardian. But I do think you want to make sure there's an adult at home, particularly for the younger students. And then the second thing I would do is retroactive, so let them in and then make sure that you continue to see academic, social, emotional progress on a daily basis and use that as your yardstick instead of like attendance and number of minutes logged in the learning management system and stuff like that. How does that land with you guys as sort of prescriptions to think about for whom this is a good option or not? Would you push back or add anything to that list? Julie, you go first. I suspect you have stronger views, but John, I want to hear you too.

No, I'm totally in sync with you, I think. And that would be my advice as well. And always is my advice, I think too. You know, I always tell parents that as you go through the process of examining your options, the kind of conversations that you actually are having with the providers, with the, with the online school leaderships or admissions advisors, et cetera, are really, really critical and important. What kinds of conversations are you having? So for example, you know, we would always look for a student that was jumping in the middle of the year, wants to become full time because they don't like their teaching or, you know, something of that nature has occurred. And so it's like, okay, we're going to throw out the baby with the bathwater and we're going to just, you know, come full time with whatever virtual option that we had. And we typically will talk a parent out of that. We will typically Say, you know, let us help you talk through your options and how you might navigate this at the school level. And so we try very hard to understand the why are you coming full time? And then help the parent and the student make a good choice, which will then determine their success. To your point about sorting, you all might remember way back in the day when we started Florida Virtual School, when we had, you know, kind of like two approaches to determining what it was going to look like for students to come in. And one idea was we would, it was a high school initially. One idea was that every, every student would have to take a test and that they would have to be reading at least the 8th grade level and that they would be selected to come in. And then the other idea was, we don't know enough about this. Let's look at the reason why they want to come in. Let's look at their support at home and why their families would like them to be part of it. And then let's at. Look, let them come and then let's work with them and see how this whole thing works. And what we learned so quickly because everybody thought, okay, this is only going to be for gifted kids. Or you remember, it was like, are your kids all incarcerated? You know, why would these kids do this? But what we learned very quickly is it was so much less about where they were academically at the moment, and it was so much more about, number one, where they wanted to be and what kind of support structure they had and what they were experiencing in their school day. And so we completely quit trying to predict which student was going to be successful in the online environment just by looking at grades or transcripts. It was really a whole scaffolding of different inputs that we looked at to determine whether this was going to be a good fit. And so we do the same thing now as we advise parents and even with our own schools, like so, so last year, obviously going through this, this, this drama trauma, you know, our principals will say, you know, we know which kids hybrid is probably not going to work for. And my response is, well, that was last year's model, and we are creating an entirely new model this year, and we are engaging parents in a very different way in a voluntary way. And so let's not make that prediction right off the bat. Let's give our parents choices and then let's monitor and we'll rein in if we need to.

John.

I mean, you guys, I mean, not much to add. I mean, both of you, the thing that I think you're both Sort of teasing out is that there's not sort of like a single thing. There's not like a metric you can use past experience a little bit, but it all sort of goes into a sort of like a complex set of counseling and helping a family figure out if this is the right mode for their kid and if their kids set up for success. That's the other thing. The only other thing I would add to that is just borrowing from higher education. You know, the whole idea of add drop, like create a really hard face, hard set, like add drop type of thing of where, you know, like part of the reason colleges do that is because you think, my gosh, like, I think I'm gonna love econ economics. And then you go in, you're like, oh my gosh, what is all this Math? And then like, and then, and then you want to like transfer out, right? And you drop the class and you add something else. And like, there needs to be a little bit of letting families try this, but, but, but giving them a hard day by which to sort of say, like, look like, let's all have a conversation and say, is this really working for your, your child or not? Is it? And have that conversation with the child too. And then if not, like drop that and move the child into something that's going to be, they're going to be set up more for success with. But, but I, I love all the other ideas that you guys put out, like cosine plus one.

I, I love the add drop idea. So, so we'll, we'll all agree to co sign on that. John, Julie, super appreciate you guys jumping on having the conversation and we'll continue to track how this all plays out as Julie, you're working actively with schools and districts and systems to be prepared and John, you are tracking everything and probably in a lot of people's ear about what not to do and what to do as we work our way through summer. So just a appreciate you both and for all those tuning in, we'll be back. Next time on the future of Education.