How Does YouScience Help Students Discover Careers?

Welcome to the future of education. I'm Michael Horn, looking forward to today's conversation because it's an area that I've become incredibly interested in, really, over the last several years, since I wrote Choosing College and realized far too many students who were moving through the K12 education system, who were going to college, who were trying to figure out their careers, didn't really have a sense of what possible careers were out there, where were their aptitudes, what might speak to them, how would they figure out what was out there, and then even network and start to discover where their passions might take them? YouScience really helps kick off that process in meaningful ways with students. And I'm just really excited to learn from the founder and CEO, Edson Barton, who I will bring up to the main stage now. Edson, it's good to see you. Thanks for being here today.

Yeah, thanks, Michael. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah.

And so I'm excited to have this conversation and learn more. I've been hearing about what you all do, and for those who are watching, tuning in on the various channels that we broadcast, to feel free to ask your own questions as well. I'm coming at this from a lot of. From a real place of curiosity, of trying to understand more how this. How the assessments and the tools that you've built really work. But before we go there, just tell us a little bit about your own background and how you got into this line of work, how you started YouScience to begin with.

Yeah, I think, you know, like a lot of entrepreneurs, you kind of find a passion and where. Where you feel like you're needed in the world. And early on, I was one of those students in high school, so speaking about high school and. And lower grades, where I. I knew that I had the smarts to do what I needed to do. I knew that. I love to learn, but I was one of those students that either earned A's or D's, depending on not just the subject, but whether or not I felt engaged in education. And so I know that I wasted a lot of time in high school because I just didn't pay attention. And as I got older, I, you know, and thinking, is this just me, or is this a larger issue? And coming to realize that, no, this is. It's not just me. This is a larger issue of individuals who have so much to give to the world, which I think everybody does. I don't think there's one person out there that doesn't have a tremendous amount to give yet. They don't know how to go about delivering that good to the rest of the world, they're a little bit lost. And education, too often for our students, there's some interesting surveys that have come out in the last few years about what do they think is education. And so often education is the institution, the school itself, the brick and mortar button seat kind of thing, rather than the learning experience about gathering information and disseminating that and really making that a part of your life. And so as I started to realize this, it became just deep in my soul of I wanted to figure out how to help individuals, whoever they may be, whether they were academically inclined or not, find passion in education and find passion in their eventual career. And so that's kind of how I came to this place is just. It's a part of me, it's been there since a young age of trying to want to figure out this, this aspect of human nature and how can we make it better.

It makes a lot of sense. It echoes deeply with me because I feel like my own personal mission or calling at this point is to help people build their passions and then realize their full human potential. And to your point, that takes a number of different pathways. Right. It's not just the synonymous with education or academic pathway that is most obviously presented to us, nor is it the. The one that is sort of introduced to you just by what your parents do, what you know. I grew up inside the beltway and so I only knew politicians and lawyers. I didn't know that there were other careers possible. So totally resonates. So tell us what youscience actually is and the solution that you built itself to help young people with this journey.

Yeah, it's kind of a multifaceted approach. And really youscience in its entirety walks an individual from middle school all the way through career. And so at its core is this idea of how do we engage an individual so that they are building towards the individualized success that they need and want. And that's not just about following your passions because as a young person in particular, we all wanted to be actors or actresses or sports stars or musical people.

And we can't all do that.

It's great that there are people that do, but we can't all do that. So there's this deeper level of connecting from a very young age to career the pieces that need to go together. And so youscience helps do that. And the way that we start that is through an aptitude based guidance system that really looks at the deep person of who you are. And while we do take into effect or to account the interests of an individual, we recognize that the interests of a young person to what you just described are so dependent on their surroundings and their environment and what they've been exposed to that it skews wildly the perceptions of what's possible for an individual. Aptitudes, however, we really focus on those because it goes deeper, it gets into who you are naturally, what are your inherent talents, and how can we try to link those to something in your future? And so that something in your future is the pathways of education that lead to a career. And then along that path, as we get students into the proper pathways for them, they're what we call the best fit pathways. Then we start to deliver certifications and programs to validate what they're doing. And for a young person, that starts a tremendous cycle of success, right? They, they find something that they're naturally inherently good at. They start to get into a pathway with other people that are similar to them, have those same likes and interests and deep seated capabilities, their educator partner. So the teacher that's involved with them also is in that same mindset. So if you get into a pathway, career pathway, that's indicative of the fact that that teacher likes that same thing that you do. So you naturally build this relationship with your instructors, and then you start doing the assignments and they come naturally to you instead of clunky to you. And all of a sudden you get this upward spiral of success that then leads to a career later on. And so we're able to see that in full progression with what we do.

I'm curious, and there may be one question, there may be two questions packed into this one so you can pull them apart as makes sense. But I'm curious, it sounds like interests are very malleable in some sense. How malleable are aptitudes? Are they different from strengths? How do you think about this conversation of personality and traits and interests and aptitudes and strengths? What's fixed? What's malleable? How do they connect to each other?

Yeah, great question. You know, so interests are, let's start there because they're the easier one to describe really quickly. Interests are just what you've been exposed to so you can have an interest. Again, to use the common example of arts and entertainment, because it surrounds us, right? So we're always looking at these different arts. And if you entertain, interview young people now, one of the growing careers that they want to be a part of is an influencer, right? So an online influencer, because that's what they're exposed to and. But there's so much more there for an individual. So aptitudes, a really great way to describe it is it's like using your dominant or non dominant hand, right? So I'm right handed. So when I use my right hand to write with and to, you know, to paint with or whatever I do, it comes much more naturally to me. And I'm able to build on that in a great way. When I use my non dominant hand, I can still do a lot of the things that I can do with my dominant hand, but it now feels clunky to me. It feels out of sync. So in the academic sense, or the way we look at it from, you know, strengths versus interest versus other things is an aptitude of mine might be sequential reasoning. The skills that are associated with that might be accountancy, for example. But accountancy is that it's a skill that's developed and by developing, I can develop that talent or that skill over time and get better and better and better at that. And aptitude, while it can be refined over time, it gets imprinted on us at a very young age. So when do we find out our aptitudes and how malleable are they? What the science has proven is that aptitudes are something that get fixed around as you pass through puberty and they actually don't change very much from that point through adulthood. Interests, however, change constantly, especially for young people. Right. And so up until that point of going through, you know, that adolescence phase, the malleableness of that isn't. It's not changing, it's just developing in you. So I think that's another good way to look at it. The great thing is though, that as we've understood aptitudes better and better is that they don't change over time. You can get better with some things that you're. Your natural aptitudes guide you towards. But again, they don't change per se. So that's a real strength in looking at the world through that. The one last thing that I think I'd mention in response to your question is how we evaluate those different things. So personality tests that a lot of people will associate with aptitudes, they're generally, or an interest survey, the same type of thing, they're generally self respondent. So they're surveys. And as an individual, I'm saying, do I like this better? Do I like that better? Do I do this well? Do I not do that well? Do you know? And so it's this Value judgment that you're making yourself aptitudes. We actually use a series of brain games that are more like a traditional test. It is trying to find out who you are. And so the judgment call of your environment, your surroundings, your self, biases, those kind of go away, and you're left with this core kernel, if you will, that's at the heart of who you are. And so that's another difference between those.

It's incredibly helpful, and I think it weaves into the next question. You answered a few things that were on my mind in your answer there, which was terrific. I'm curious then, as you think about the assessment that you're able to give, it sounds like as early as middle school. Then when someone's sort of gone through that early adolescence period, these aptitudes start to become fixed. How. How does your assessment, like, how did you build it to be valid and reliable through these brain games? How does it compare to maybe other things out there in the market? Pymetrics is something that occurs to me that maybe is. Is maybe similar. I'm curious your. Your take on that or, you know, something like strengths finder is certainly not brain games to play into that, but maybe hits at some of the same ideas that it's trying to pull apart. So how would you sort of situate it, I guess, in those. That mosaic of other options out there? And how did you develop the validity and reliability over time?

Yeah, let me take that last part first, because that's easy. One, the aptitudes have been studied for a long time, just like interests have been and other tools. So the science behind aptitudes is not new. The basis of the aptitude assessments that we use were created from the Ball foundation, which has been studying aptitudes for generations now. And so they're really very expert at that. And the science that goes all behind that without getting into all of that depth. But those have been around for a long time. And so the science is well founded as it is, with interest surveys and. And personality surveys as well. So the science behind all those is again, very well documented, and there's great programs for all. One thing that I do want to just make mention of is as I make the differences between aptitudes and interests, it's not to say that one is better than the other. It's that they are used. They need to be used for the right reasons and the right purposes. And especially for young people where they don't understand their interests fully, and those are changing so dramatically. You have to get to a deeper Place of understanding so that you can properly guide them to the opportunities that they have in the future. So some of the comparisons that you've used or some of the examples of other tools, there are interest surveys, right, that we've talked about, there are personality surveys and then there's some of these that are getting kind of in the blend of the middle. And that's kind of where I put a pymetrics in that kind of realm. What we do is we look at it in kind of two segments. Segments, if you. Or three segments. We'll look at the aptitudes. We do do an interest survey as well, and we actually combine those through some proprietary algorithms so that an individual can look at all three of those side by side. They can look at their interests, how they lined up there, they can look at how their aptitudes result in the types of careers that they would be looking at and then they can look at that blended solution as well. So because interests are incredibly important in all of that. You want somebody who's passionate about what they're doing, but their skill sets, their inherent aptitudes, again, may be in something that is not related with what they're thinking. So it's a good simple example of that is in healthcare. Right. I may have this very strong desire to work with people and I want to help these individuals get better in different ways. So that might be a natural pull, but my bedside manner, you know, my natural inclinations are not there to be a people person or, you know, there might be a lot of other things that are going on, but I could still be a part of the healthcare industry if I was much more aligned to being an engineer. And now I can combine those two great things about who I am, my passion for helping people and my abilities to be a great engineer. And I might be a mechanical engineer that comes up with new ways of, of helping an individual with the prosthetic, for example. Right. I'm just picking examples. But now I can combine all of that into something that becomes incredibly fulfilling for me as an individual and helps me grow through that period of time.

Makes a ton of sense. It's super helpful walking us through this. It's also, I think speaks to something larger, frankly, which is an education principle. Sometimes people get very excited about interest based education following a student's interests. And there's something to that. Right. And there's something to assuming that when a child is young, they might not know what they're interested in yet and that they can get sparked by lots of different questions. And topics that you as the educator get to expose them to, to introduce and see where they pull on that strand, so to speak, because you never quite know where it'll, it'll, it'll lead. If you're thoughtful about that. Yeah, go ahead.

If I could really quick. I think that's a really important thing. I mean, we've all experienced this to a degree where you have that one teacher, you know, that you just, whatever the subject was, they were just that teacher that you resonated with and to your words sparked something in you. And all of a sudden you get this interest and you feel like that's where you want to go. And then years later you end up going through college and all this program and you come to realize, man, I really don't like this. Right. Yeah, I enjoy it, but it's not fulfilling to me in the way that I thought it would be. And that's part of the problem is that we've all heard that saying, do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Right. Well, that's. To a degree, that's true. But if you pick something that, that you did, you had a passion for, but it wasn't where your strengths were, then you're going to struggle with that all of your life or you're not going to make good income out of that. Or, you know, there's all different aspects of that. You know that there's always that joke about doctors or dentists where they decided to go down this road. It's a great pain profession. But you have these, these doctors or dentists that are making tons of money and they hate their lives.

Yep.

And that's. But then you have the other extreme where you have these people that found that and now they, they love every minute of it. And it's so clear when you go and visit those, those people. Right. You love going to certain dentists, you hate going to other ones. Right?

No. And you raise a really important point and why I think what you're doing is so important because you're, in my language, you're connecting that supply and demand side. Right. What I want to do as an individual with what is actually out there.

And what my day to day will.

Actually look like if I go down that road and helping me as an individual to sort of surface a lot more information a lot earlier before, if you go to medical school, the way we've constructed it now, anyway, that's a multi year journey with a lot of investment and fixed cost before you even get to figure out, is this the right career? Unless you've taken some of these steps up front, which I think weaves into where I want to go next, which is digging a little bit more into what the student and educator experience look like. Because on the surface, you know, on the latter piece, Right. Like, I can imagine as an individual, me getting a ton out of what you've built. The educator side, I'm curious how that gets used and what that looks like. So maybe take us into the use case itself, and then maybe we can jump into the. You know, you've done some work in Utah. We can maybe hit that next. But let's start sort of describing the experience first before we go there.

Yeah, you bet. The. One of the ways that I like to look at it is kind of a backwards hourglass. So, you know, a normal hourglass has the two big sides that are, I guess, upside down, right. And that you go into the middle and it gets constrained. And then a. Opens back up for an individual, a student, especially a young one. And it becomes really clear when you start putting this into populations where their opportunities for exposure are more limited, but they're starting from a very constrained point. They don't know what's available to them out there in the market. Their exposure is really about what's around them. Do they have uncles, aunts, parents, neighbors that do these certain types of jobs? And so their vision is really constrained. So one of our goals right out of the gate is to try to open up the aperture of that, give them exposure to the different types of things that are available, but not just random things. And this is the critical piece is giving them things that are relatable to them inherently. So through these aptitudes and saying, hey, you know what? You have this aptitude to do these different types of. Of careers. Have you even ever considered that before? And by the way, the data is just astronomical here, and we'll talk about that in some of these findings that we published very recently. But it opens up this world to them, and then over time, we're able to start closing that back down and helping them focus on areas that they want to be, that they really want to go into and they really want to be guided towards. So that's kind of the view from the student side is having this narrow perspective, opening that perspective to something larger, and then guiding them down the road of being more specific with their future. For the educator, this is tremendously helpful because to date, all they've been able to do is ask a student, what do you like to do. And it's pretty easy to get to that information. And in fact, I was talking to a counselor just last week and she said, you know, I am so tired of having a student come into my office to have this career exploration opportunity and to guide them towards different classes. And I asked them, you know, what, what do you, what do you want to do? What do you like? And having the students sit there and say, I don't know. Right. And they, because they legitimately don't. And she's like, so then it just becomes a class picking exercise rather than a guidance exercise. And she said, I didn't come into this profession to just guide students into classes and randomly help them pick those. I came to help them develop into who they were meant to be. And she said, now what I'm able to do is I can sit down with this tool and in minutes I can have this conversation with them. Hey, let's pull up your aptitude results and look at the different careers that are associated with the those. All right, we sit down. We do that for a second. Great. Which ones of these seem interesting to you based on who you are now? And it's ranking these, these types of careers for them, then they can have that conversation about, okay, does our school have this program? If not, how can you get to go into programs in the local community college that offers articulated agreements with the high school? You know, how can you go to a different high school even to get those things? Or let's start building on what we have here at our school and see how we can start expanding your horizons into something greater. And now all of a sudden, the conversation just becomes this flowing information about what's possible for you in a directed, personalized sense. The other aspect, because you asked about the student and the, and the educator, but the other aspects, the parent here, you know, I think any of us that have children that are of, of this age, right, this kind of high school age, we know that. No, even as good as we think we know them, they're different than who we actually believe they are. Right?

Sure. Yeah.

And the stories that come out of parents after having gone through the results of the aptitude assessments with their students, their kids is they're remarkable. They'll just come back time and time again. I didn't know my kids kid had these capabilities. I didn't know that this was even possible to them. You know, and even we think about, you know, the very stereotypical, well educated family, very involved family that, that is surrounding their kids. When you really ask the parents, do you know what opportunities are out there for your student? They don't know. They don't know what educational paths are available, they don't know what career paths are available and they don't have a great idea of what jobs are out there either.

And so you're able to start to surface that in some meaningful ways. Talk us through. You had this case study that you recently released from Utah. You have some data around this. Talk to us about what you're able to actually do for these students. And just to editorialize for one sec, what you just said is 100% right? Again, the parents are confined based on their own experiences, the people that they know, their social capital and so forth. And so you can't see pathways that you haven't, you know yourself been intentionally in some way exposed to or curated for you and so forth. And it's one of the big challenges I think of students choosing college or career is, is, you know, unless they've had this intentional process up front, it there's, there's more luck involved than actually I could prototype this right before I actually have to make the decision. So I, so I'm doing it from a place of experience as opposed to a good or service I've never before hired.

Yeah, absolutely. And that shows in the results of what's happening in education today. Right. Well intentioned educators that are trying to do the very best they can on both the high school and on the secondary and the post secondary side. But the results are kind of dismal. You know, the dropout rates are through the roof. And post secondary, one of the most fascinating studies was done, you know, by the Federal Reserve of New York where they found that of four year college degree holders, only 27% of those individuals were, would ever work in a field related to their, their majors that they actually studied and got their degrees in. That's abysmal. And when you really break that down, that's about 10% or less of the total population. And so when you think about all the time and energy that's spent there, there's got to be a better way of helping find that area of expertise earlier rather than waiting clear until the end and just pushing people through. So going to what we found in Utah is just one example of this, of kind of how this plays out in middle school. So when you look at the differences between males and females and you look at then also what they're interested in versus what they have the aptitudes for, as one example. So across the country there is a huge need for computer scientists, manufacturing individuals that are interested in those areas. So in Utah, middle school females had 11 times more aptitude for a career in computer science than they had the interest in. So think about that. A young woman who has all of the skills and capabilities to go into this one particular field, if you only look at what she's exposed to and her personal interests and all the stereotypes and biases that she brings to her own perspective, she will miss out on those opportunities, even though she has the total capabilities to accomplish those things. And so we never even guide them towards those programs, because if you just ask them, what do you like? That young woman, very stereotypically will say, I'm interested in nursing, I'm interested in social sciences or social services, which are all very worthwhile. Right, sure.

But closing off a set of doors before even had a crack at it.

Yeah. You know, my own daughter went through this process and she came back to me. She is one of those, again, very stereotypical kind of young women. She loved helping people. That was who she was. And so as her parent, I started saying, okay, yeah, let's go down this medical road or something like that. When she did the aptitude test, information systems, computer science were some of her top suggested careers. And she kind of looked at that and she was embarrassed by it, and she didn't want to go and explore that because in her mind, she said, that's not who I am. That's my brother. Right. And she, you know, and she kind of separated that out. So she goes into college and starts pursuing some of these other types of degrees. And. And thankfully, even though she had this data there for her, she was forced to take an information systems class as part of her major. And she absolutely loved it and she fell in love with it. And she came to me about halfway through that class, through that semester, and she said, dad, I'm so embarrassed because I've been pushing back against this, and I can see it firsthand now that my aptitudes are, like, coming out. And I've never seen her happier in school than I have in the last couple of years that she's chosen this as her new major. Information systems.

I don't want to make you bury the lead. So you all putting this system into schools and so forth, what's the sort of impact you can change on the trajectories of lots of individuals, lots of women, others who maybe have that, you know, subconscious or unconscious or maybe conscious bias working on them and not looking at certain fields that they would Be great fits for able to make a contribution, tell us, sort of spin the story forward a little bit. How are you able to change those trajectories for individuals?

Yeah. So I'll use another example here locally. And by the way, we're all throughout the entire nation and we, we do this all across the country. I live in Utah, so I have some very personal experiences here. But there was a school just north from us that their counselor had given the aptitude assessments to all of their students. And they just. Again, just like so many across the country, they had enrollments in their computer science classes and their manufacturing classes and other technology fields that were very skewed, male versus female. And so what they did is in their reporting, they have the capability to look at who has the aptitudes and the interest and see that, you know, the crossovers or where there might be the gaps. And so they went and identified all of the young women in the school who had the aptitudes to go into these types of, of careers. And so they proactively went to the young women that fit that grouping and said, hey, there's a local conference here that is called she Tech. It's a fantastic conference that brings women who are in technology fields together. And, you know, it's a great, great event. Would you like to go to that event? And we'll sponsor it as a school. Every single young woman. Now, that could have been just because they wanted to get out of school, but every single young woman they approach approached said yes, that they would go. And the next semester, their enrollments for young women in those classes jumped by over 50% just like that.

Wow.

Very easy, very simple intervention. But it's just that opportunity to say, hey, so and so, in my case, my daughter Lily, you. You have these capabilities. Did you even know that? That's awesome. And look at the types of companies who are. Who want you to be involved in that. That's awesome. It's such a positive message that, you know, for the first time in a lot of kids lives, they're being told, and let me go back. We use grading systems constantly in the school systems, which are understandable, but they're. They are. Are you good enough or are you not? And so, yeah, and we're not good enough. So for the first time, we're able to go without hesitation. You just look at somebody's aptitudes and you are able to go and say, you are awesome. And you can be awesome at these things. That's an empowering thing. And so many kids throughout the world have never been told that before. And so when you start to change the paradigm a little bit and show them their capabilities and their possibilities, their own minds start to take off. And what we also do is we actually have a system where businesses can come into our system and tell the students what aptitudes they're looking for and how that relates to careers. And so in the system, the students can then connect the dots between, here's my aptitudes, here's my skills, here's the careers that are associated with that, and here's local businesses that actually are looking for individuals in that area. And now I've connected the dots all the way from middle school all the way to career. And that just, again, it just fires off so many different synapses for an individual student.

Yeah, I was so struck by when I started researching y' all and learning just how you go so far beyond the assessment and even just servicing the options, how you pull that connective tissue through, make the certifications available, the actual demand in the, in the labor market and so forth. Edson, as we wrap up, I have two more questions. One, I'm going to flash up here from an audience member around. You know, he's curious, David Ehrenthal, what resistance you're finding in higher ed or other career channels. So I'll let you answer that. And then I've got one more before we wrap up.

So we're not finding resistance at all, actually, as you've seen in the, in higher ed, especially over the last two years, the system of higher ed is starting to break apart. And this, this idea of just getting kids in for the sake of getting them in, everybody's starting to realize that's not working. And you look at the dropout rates and colleges know that just as well as the rest of the population. And it's a big concern for them. They want. It's in their best financial interest to keep students in their institutions. So what they're finding is if we can identify the proper programs, so forget about which schools, but find the proper programs for the individuals, then they persist at much higher rates. And so the higher ed institutions are starting to embrace this. And it's actually what we're finding is it's being looked at as a way of entrance instead of entrance exams, now looking at entrance mechanisms to identify the right programs for students, because that's a better indicator of potential success in higher ed than anything else.

It's interesting. Just two reflections, and then I lied. We're going to do one more audience question because it's an interesting one. But the just two reflections, one it seems that you can really actually help combat people's worries about making these filtering or choices. You know, having students make these choices early in their academic careers and maybe saying four year college is not the right path for me. I'd rather go X. People's historical worries about that is that I'll filter based on race or gender or things like that. Right. You can overcome that through this system and be much more based on who I am as an individual as opposed to these biased sorts of questions. It seems to me. The second thing that occurs to me is what you just said, which is I would love to see us move from a system that is sorting based on a very narrow set of criteria, just academic grades and test scores along very narrow heuristics. As President Joseph Ayoun of Northeastern said to us the other day, moving to a system of higher ed that's not just diverse but actually differentiated based on the programs that they offer and really leaning into what makes them unique. And it seems like you all can start to help with that. This weaves into the last question I'll ask just from John Fennell, you know, assistant to a community college president in Mississippi. He says can this be integrated what you're offering you science into a college webpage and can the data collected by questionnaire be collected by higher ed for analysis?

Yeah. So the college webpage, I think it's. We don't do a lot of that. Like we don't have a white label, if you will, where we're put it into the system. But putting it and making it available for college students across the board where it's easily accessible. Absolutely. And it's being done across the country in all sorts of post secondary institutions right now. Great story that's on our website that I just love is One of the HBCUs in the country, one of only 11 technical college HBCUs. Denmark Technical College in South Carolina now uses it for every single incoming student to help them find their better path. And they're having tremendous, tremendous success with it in a very remote part of South Carolina and helping students. And the persistence rates are growing tremendously since they've started to implement that. And so implementing into the post secondary institutions is actually at one of the hearts of what we're trying to work on and do. And being able to accomplish that is near and dear to our heart. What we're finding is that as the post secondary institution institutions are implementing it just as fast as the Secondary institutions, they're able to come together in better ways to now help with equity and diversity issues like they've never been able to do before. Because, Michael, like you said earlier, you're no longer looking at separations based on what type of education you got. You know, there's always an academic element of going to post secondary institutions, but now we can really look at that separation based on what's the best fit for you. Right. How do we get you into something that's going to drive your particular success and that changes the game for individuals. We've all heard the stories, for example, of that student who didn't do very well in math and then they get into a job in construction or manufacturing and now they're doing complex math. Right. Because it's part of their job and it's part of what they love to do. And I think we'll find more and more of that over the years as this gets more and more embedded into the systems. Because people will love what they're studying and what they're trying to drive towards, regardless of what post secondary level it is. And they know that it's driving towards a successful career for them and so they'll naturally want to learn the things that they haven't done in the past.

Super informative, Edson, thanks for joining us. I know we went longer than we originally anticipated, but it's just such an interesting and important topic that touches on so many important strands and struggles that real educators have on the ground and students are struggling with as well in parents. So appreciate you being here. For those watching, a couple of you messaged me and said having some video issues on LinkedIn or wherever else. This will be available afterwards on LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook. So there'll be multiple ways you can re engage with the content that Edson shared with us today. And for all you listening, just give it a thumbs up. Other people can find it as well. And Edson, thank you so much for what you're doing and for helping break it down and explain the benefits and the logic behind what you've created. Really appreciate it.

Absolutely. And thank you for your time and for what you're doing of bringing these issues to the forefront. We're really doing some great work between lots of great educators and passionate people in the industry.

It's wonderful stuff. And we'll be back next time with that on the future of education. Thanks so much.