Leadership, Business and Athletics: Penn State University President Neeli Bendapudi

So Michael, as listeners of this podcast, well known because I remind them at every opportunity. I grew up in Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania, I think, makes for an interesting case study for the future of higher education. Changing demographics, a changing economy, migration to cities, a clear pullback in public financing of higher ed, the merger emerging of public institutions, and more. It's also a state where outside of those who intensely follow higher ed or know Pennsylvania well, its system of higher ed isn't really always understood. Yes, it has top private higher ed institutions, a public system of higher ed, but it also has this array of public state related institutions.

And Jeff, that makes it a great state though, to think through. What kind of leadership will it take for higher ed to keep up with the demands of the future? Which is among the reasons we've hosted, by my count anyway, four presidents or chancellors of universities or state systems of higher ed in Pennsylvania on the Future youe podcast. And today we host our fifth Penn State's new president, Neely Bendaputi.

This episode of Future you is sponsored by ascendium Education Group, a nonprofit organization committed to helping learners from low income backgrounds reach their education and career goals. For more information, visit ascendiumphilanthropy.org and by course Hero from creating more engaging syllabi to building an inclusive and impactful curriculum, CourseHero is a professional learning community where more than 100,000 teachers share resources and strategies for helping students succeed. Get access to the latest teaching events, workshops and certification courses by joining CourseHero's professional learning community. Join today@coursehero.com educators. Subscribe to Future youe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on Twitter at the Handle FutureYou podcast. And if you enjoy the show, please give us a 5 star rating so others can discover the conversations we're having about higher education.

Jeff I'm Jeff Salingo.

And I'm Michael Horn. Jeff, I'm glad you gave the intro you did, because otherwise people would think we were just toasting presidents from Pennsylvania out of your own nostalgia or because of some home cooking going in on the Future you podcast, if you will. But the reason is not just that. All the complicated relationships and changing dynamics that are impacting higher ed are alive and well in Pennsylvania, and the role of leaders in that context is what makes it such a fascinating place to study. Now, in past seasons we've had the president of Carnegie Mellon on this podcast, as well as Dan Greenstein, the Chancellor of the Penn State System of Higher Education. And just recently we had Temple University's new President Jason Wingard.

I'm glad you justified our choices, Michael. And I say our choices with intent, not just my choices. I think after this, we need to take a break from the Keystone State. But in all seriousness, Temple is those institutions that is what is known as a public state related institution. And Penn State is the second of them in Pennsylvania, although in the case of Penn State, located in State College, it's also Pennsylvania's flagship institution. And it's one full disclosure that my wife and her siblings graduated from, so I know it well from multiple angles. But its new president comes from such an interesting background, from her family's education journey to her own journey and the impact of her culture on what she chose to do alongside her time spent in, in the corporate world as an academic. And I think all of that comes together to form a very distinct perspective on the vision she has for Penn State. And with that, we're going to welcome Neely to the Future youe Podcast. Welcome, Neely.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm absolutely delighted to join you.

That's great. You know, we usually begin our conversations with presidents about their journey to the top job, but we want to begin a little bit earlier with you, because it seems education shaped your life in a particular way. You were born and raised in India, and when you were five, your father left home to come to the US for an advanced degree. And not to New York or Massachusetts or California, but he came to Kansas.

He did. People do ask me about it, believe it or not, did he throw darts at the map of the United States? But the answer is more prosaic. And you're right, my life is one where it's completely transformed by the promise of higher education. So he did choose Kansas, and he had a scholarship to a couple of universities. And we grew up in what's known as the Rice bowl of India, Andhra Pradesh. So I don't know whether he had seen Kansas State AG people there. I still don't. I wish I had asked him, but there were four choices. And he was particularly interested in Kansas because they had a very strong modern American drama program there, apparently, which is what he was studying.

Now, you grew up in a culture and at a time that said girls should be treated differently from boys. And here you were, you and your two sisters. How did that shape your view on your own education? Why did you think, well, I could get a PhD too, just like he did?

That's a fascinating question, and I've only really begun reflecting on it in the past five years. To be completely candid. When I was growing up at that time and place, it was very common for people to come up and sympathize with my mom. Even when I was there, my sisters were there, oh, we are so sorry that you only have daughters, or they would. Actually, we had a saying in my language which is still sad, which is you tell kids not to lie and not to steal and be good people. So for us, the version of it was, sorry, people, I'll translate for you. Bottom line is it is don't tell lies or you'll have daughters. So that was just sad and it wasn't like a big deal. And my father being away for four years as not being able to see him, not having money, to be able to even talk on the phone on a regular basis made me very curious about higher education. That's true. But I often do wonder if there were sons in the family, whether I would have felt, as the oldest, the need to somehow make it okay for my mom because she's my hero and so to say, I can do this too.

Yeah. It's interesting. You're talking to two hosts who have among us four daughters. So. So really do. We really do appreciate that, that story now. So you came, you earned your bachelor's degree in MBA in India and then also came to the University of Kansas for your doctorate. Tell us about that decision to come to the US Because I recall in hearing the story that you've told before that when your father came, there were. There were years you didn't see him because you couldn't easily travel back and forth. You had to go to a neighbor's house to talk to him on the phone. So the US Was a really far away place to go to college. So tell us a little bit about that decision to come to the US and particularly to Kansas to earn your own doctorate.

Right? You're absolutely right. So for four years, we did not see him. And I probably, as the oldest, I was the one that missed him the most. I can imagine. The others were really little, my sisters. But as with everything, there's the personal and the professional. And it was a confluence. My husband, I got my MBA after being married, got married very young. And so we didn't have the traditional arranged marriage. So that contributed to our decision to try to go far away and study. Now it's all copacetic. Everybody is happy now. But when we wanted to further higher education, and I really credit my husband, I call him the original feminist in our family who kept encouraging me to continue my graduate work, that was part of the decision. And Kansas was the only place we had really heard of. They were wonderful. They were truly wonderful to us coming

then to Kansas and out of your experience in India, I think it's fair to say more generally that very few people, maybe no one goes to college saying, hey, when I grow up, I want to become a college president. You've talked a lot about two things that have helped you get where you are today. One has been mentors, you've said, and the other is the opportunity you had to work with different industries. Frankly, as a business professor, you get a lot of opportunities to interact with a lot of companies and executives through that. So I'd love to talk about both. But first, let's start with the mentors side of the equation. Tell us a little bit about the mentors you've had and what makes for a really good mentor.

Oh, wow. What a wonderful question, Michael. Thank you. Yes, I've been blessed, truly. That's the word I would use with some amazing mentors, some of whom knew they were mentoring me, some of whom I adopted as my mentors. I'll explain in a minute. So at the University of Kansas, I was very, very fortunate to have the director of doctoral programs was a professor, Renata Maidalton. She had come here from Germany as an immigrant herself, but really took me under her wing. No nonsense. She still is that way of what to do, what not to do. But constantly saying, you can do this, you can get your PhD and also the casual labeling we do to each other, like I told you about my childhood story, makes a huge impact. I still remember very distinctly Professor Elizabeth Schultz, who was actually my husband's professor at the University of Kansas. And in a very brief meeting, I was maybe 23, 24 when I started my PhD program. And she at that time, I thought she was very old. Who knows? Like, she probably was 45. But she said to me, I can see you're a very strong woman. In an early conversation, I've had the chance to talk to Beth about that, how that really had a profound impact on me. Here's this venerated professor who thinks I'm strong, that I can do this. Similarly, at Texas A and M, Wonderful, wonderful mentors. Lenberry Rajan Vardarajan, who are giants in the field of marketing and services, took me under their wing. And at Ohio State, the dean, this is where probably I saw what powerful forces they can be. Joe Aluto, who said, I don't know what he saw in me, but said, hey, even as an assistant professor, I want you to head up this big initiative for me of bringing business and academe closer together. So many mentors outside of academe as well, I've just mentioned some in academe that have been big influences for me.

So I'd love to know what about their relationship with you? Because that's quite a lineup of mentors. An incredible group that it sounds like really helped construct a narrative in your own head about your potential and what you could accomplish. What, what, as you think about all the people that want mentors or that look to mentor up and comers, what would you say? What, you know, what makes for a good mentor? What's the secret sauce?

Oh, I love that. And I particularly like what you said about how mentors help us change the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. I think that's what you said, the narrative in your own head, that's so, so, so true. Because for someone like me in particular, it's not true that you cannot be what you cannot see. Right? Otherwise you'd never have first of anything. But it's certainly a lot harder. And so all of them, none of them looked like me, but they all. So they had something I could relate to that would say, you can do this. And they gave me that confidence. To me, great mentors understand your professional capabilities, they're your champions. But there's also an alignment around your personal values so you believe that they get you as a person and where you are headed. I think those are important. I have mentored several people, have been very fortunate to be able to do that. I would say for an up and comer, don't be afraid to ask. If you ask, the answer may be no. But pleasant persistence, right? Pleasantly persistent and not to take it personally if someone doesn't have the time and to be respectful of their time of really following up, doing what you need to do. So I know you asked me about the business experience. I'm happy to talk about so many unbelievable mentors I had in that world too. But I think those are important.

Yeah, I think. Well, look, I think that's a great transition, frankly, to another realm where there weren't a lot of people that looked like you. You're sitting there as the professor, right? Coming in, I imagine working with companies, advising them, in many cases, certainly teaching students who become leaders in those fields. I'm curious, you know, you weren't just teaching theory, right? In that sense. So how did that experience working alongside business leaders, helping guide them, how did that impact your own leadership in higher ed?

Profoundly, profoundly, Profoundly. So very early on when I came to the United States, I wanted to study business. I really did. I wanted to study marketing because Indian markets were opening up. And I can tell you that I do firmly support competition because when you don't have a lot of money, it's good to have people at least fighting for your business, rather than a closed economy where only the rich have access to what's available in the marketplace. But when I came here, what I quickly realized was too many people were teaching stuff without personally understanding or having a deep interest in it. We wouldn't want to be taught or seen by a doctor who says, I've never seen the heart, but I've read the books. Why should it be different in business? So I thought whatever I did, I wanted to deeply understand, understand it. And this is where the mentors help. I was very fortunate everywhere I've been to have leaders who saw that it's good for the institution for me to gain that expertise. May I talk about my takeaways from business on two aspects. One is higher education, and the second one is leadership. The first thing for higher education, and I hope my peers won't take it the wrong way. What really surprises me in higher education everywhere I've been, is how little attention we pay to leadership development compared to almost any industry other than us. We are all about learning, but we take a great professor, we make them a department chair, we take a great department chair thinking that the skills are completely transferable. One of the big learnings for me was how focused most businesses are on developing the caliber. And I've benefited from those experiences. The second thing, of course, is being able to watch up close and personal decisions that were being made. Again, it's good fortune. Everyone from Bob Benmoche, the cleanup crew at AIG to Procter and Gamble, to the United States army, being able to watch leaders build teams. So that's the second thing is the attention they pay to building strong teams and examining how to create those pathways. Those are two things that I think I've learned and hopefully bring to academe.

So, Neelie, I was reading my wife's Penn Stater magazine. She's a loyal Penn State grad, and there was a little fact in there that I read about you that I just was a little shocked at, to be honest with you. You were announced as president, Penn State without ever seeing its campus. That's quite a leap. So what attracted you to this job?

Oh, great question. And that's absolutely correct. The only place in Pennsylvania I knew thoroughly before then was Altoona because I'd been on the board of Sheets for a long time and I'd studied Wawa, but I truly hadn't seen State College. I originally, when I was approached, as with other universities, I had said no, not because it's Penn State, but I really felt Louisville was a mission and there was much more to do. But the more I looked at Penn State, I truly could not say no. Jeff and your wife and I will tell you this is not rabid enthusiasm. There's truly no other university like Penn State in the country that I'm aware of. And you will set me right if I'm wrong. 96% of the citizens of this Commonwealth live within 30 miles of this university. I know there are systems, but I'm truly unaware of a university that has that. It's a land grant university. That mission resonates with me. Access, affordability, social mobility through higher education. And then Honestly, we have 777,000 living alumni. If they had said 77777, I would have doubted it, really. But we truly have the largest living alumni network out there. All of these were incredible to me. And then finally the research profile, the fact that we have I think 16 research disciplines in the top 10 for funding and there's only like four other universities that are higher than we are. So it's just the whole package.

Well, Neely, a couple of weeks ago on Twitter there was this debate between Sheets and Wawa and what was better. So we may have to have you back on the show to talk about that.

Oh, I'm happy to talk about it. Both great institutions, but obviously that's good for Pennsylvania.

Well, as listeners of the show know, I was born and raised in Pennsylvania and as I said earlier in interest of full disclosure, my wife is a Penn State graduate along with both of her brothers, both my brother in law. So you know, it's a complex state when it comes to higher ed. As you know, there's these state related institutions of which Penn State is one, there's these state owned institutions and we've had Dan Greenstein on, you know, who's head of the Pasche system. Lots of private colleges, I think almost as many private colleges as they are in Michael's home state of, of Massachusetts. So some might say it's overbuilt. And we talk a lot about M and A and higher ed on this show. And you started out by visiting all the Commonwealth campuses, those campuses you were talking about that Penn State has and you see these campuses spread throughout the state as a strength, not a challenge in a day and age when demographics for much of higher ed are headed in the wrong direction. So that kind of surprises me that you see them as a strength and not a challenge. Why is that?

Well, I will tell you that you also know my background. I'm a recovering banker. Right. So I will certainly look at the bottom line. And as a good business person, that's something on my mind. But I, Genu, see these campuses as a huge asset, and it was something else that drew me to this university. So the trick or not the trick, the strategy has to be how do we really leverage these assets in the best possible way. If we offered every program at every campus, that doesn't make any sense. That's where you would say, what is it you're offering that's truly different? So, for example, Altoona, we have the rail transportation engineering program. That's not available anywhere else. Dubois with wildlife. If you think about Mon Alto with forestry, Greater Allegheny, which has the only social work bachelor's program in the state, that's what we need to do to really figure out what the needs of the surrounding areas are, what's the needs of the commonwealth in terms of workforce development. And it's a wonderful way to keep costs low. People can stay close to home and get that Penn State degree that gives them access to all things Penn State.

So let's talk a little bit about cost, because before the show, I looked up what it costs a Pennsylvania resident to go to University park, live there as a residential student. So around $32,000, I think, this year, all in. And that's about $10,000 more than the average in state cost of public universities across the country. And Pennsylvania as a state is near the bottom of the nation when it comes to per state student funding on higher ed. You know, the role states have played in the rising cost of college across the country in terms of the declining percentage of appropriations that go to public universities has been in the news a lot lately with President Biden's debt forgiveness executive order. And it seems unlikely, to be honest with you, that Pennsylvania or any other state for that matter, is suddenly going to throw a lot of cash at higher ed. I don't think any of us are expecting that. So what's your plan for making Penn State more affordable to state residents? Because, to be honest with you, you know, one of the reasons I left the state to go to a private college in another state was because even back in the early 90s, the costs were quite higher than the rest of the country.

Oh, you are absolutely correct. And that's something that we have to wrestle with and figure out what to do. It's a multifactorial problem. Right. There's not one easy answer. But something that I don't even know if you are aware of, being from Pennsylvania, is something that's not the fault of anyone currently in the General Assembly. I want to make that clear because it's a historical artifact. But right now, as I look at the numbers, Penn State, despite being the university that educates more in state students, more Pell Grant students than any other institution by far, we get about $5,600 per in state Pennsylvania student that we educate undergraduate and the other state affiliated universities get 40% and 80% more. And I don't know if that's commonly known. The reason I say it's a historic artifact is that I believe the funding was set at the same. We keep growing and the others haven't. So I truly am hoping that we at least surface this and talk to people about equity. We're not really talking about anything other than why should a student who comes to Penn State actually get less resources. So that's something that I'm hoping to look at. We're also looking at multiple other things, as you might imagine.

So Neeli, let me just push back a little bit on that. So if you. Do you feel then, if you were more equitable in terms of your state fund funding, that overall you think that the cost of a Penn State degree could be more in line than with other states? Is that your feeling?

Yes, and it's not the only one for sure. I think. Certainly listeners of this podcast are well familiar with what I lovingly call the scissors graph. Right? If you track education expenses over time, as state appropriations have gone down, the share of the students tuition has gone up. But you can imagine, Jeff, if I'm getting 5,600 per student versus 9,500 per student right there, you're seeing some decrease of the 10,000 you're talking about. And there are other things too. We can't just say that's the answer. We do need to look at what are we doing, how are we monetizing the assets we have, how are we providing financial aid? Who are we prioritizing? All of these become issues.

So I want to switch. Then that's the cost side of the equation, right? Then there's the value, which is what are you getting the return on that cost. And so the value proposition of higher ed is something Jeff and I talk a lot about, as you know, on the show, a lot of our guests talk about it. And you've said that we need to explain this huge investment that people make in getting a college degree and whether higher ed is delivering on that promise. I want to speak more generally than Penn State here, which is because your academic background is in business and marketing. Does higher ed have a marketing problem fundamentally or how should we think about this with regards to the value proposition?

Yes, it does have a problem, but the way that I talk about marketing is being the customer conscience of the company. Okay. So it's not just saying something and not delivering on it. I do think we have an issue with higher education.

We?

We.

I grew up too, in an era where we expected everybody to fully understand what higher education does. How dare you question the value of what we provide? And we are in a different world right now. We need to understand people are making a huge investment. I will always remember as dean of business, this applies to everyone. Where a parent said, nearly never forget whether my student gets my son or daughter gets a BBA or an MBA behind their name, the three letters I want to see are J, O, B. I thought that was actually very true. I'm not saying higher education is only about the job because you know, and you've talked about it on the podcast on civic engagement, happiness, health, well being. But I think unless you're a trust fund baby, if you go to college like my students do, where so many of them are still first gen, low income, or no matter what your income level, you hope for a better future. That's something we need to explain. A second part of the value proposition we have to explain is the fact that so much of the research that people count on, I'm proud of being an AAU university. Look at whether it's the COVID vaccines or the latest in AI or VR or whatever it is, how much we contribute as universities to that has to be a big part. Finally, economic development. I don't think we truly explain how much we are an engine for economic development within the areas we serve.

Yeah, that really resonates. I was recently with a public college that I think does a pretty good job of that. And it was interesting to see the receptivity among policymakers to that message as well. But I want to switch then to the Penn State side of this equation, Neely, which is from a marketing perspective. If you step back and look at that, along with a few other brands right in. In higher ed, Penn State would be seen as some of the Most valuable brands in the world.

I mean, and rightly so.

Right? I mean, everyone knows Penn State. So I guess, how do you square the popularity and name recognition of those dozens of colleges and universities around the world with the fact that according to several polls, higher ed has been losing the confidence of the public at large?

You're right. Those of us who are fortunate enough to lead institutions that have incredible brands need to realize we are all temporary stewards of great institutions, no matter how long we are there. So I'm glad you brought that up as something that's important. Our job is to show people why Penn State matters to the world, to the nation, to the commonwealth, and to the locations where we are. I truly think about public universities as having a particular responsibility as a land grant university, a particular responsibility to show the ripple effects, if you will indulge me. First, I need to make sure the citizens of this commonwealth understand what Penn State stands for. That it's excellence in everything we do and that it's helping the citizens of the commonwealth, the country and beyond. And of course, something I've always believed in is it's our job to educate. We cannot sit there and say, how dare they not understand what we do? I'm not saying we are doing that, but it's a cultural shift for all of us in higher education to say, why should they know it's our job to be out there and using our employees, using our students to explain the difference we're making. I'm sorry, I'm kind of passionate about this, so I could go on and on, but I will pause. May I add one other nuance to this?

Yeah, go right ahead.

So we also. It used to truly bemuse me in academe when I would come back and people would be gnashing their teeth on, why do people not get this? And I said we put up huge billboards at another university I was at that said, we have more research dollars than all other universities in the state combined. And I said, if I were a legislator driving by it every day, why would I think, why should I understand that those dollars are not fungible, that I have research dollars, but I cannot use them to clean up a building or to fix a broken window. That's what I mean by we need to get out of our own speak and explain to people complete transparency and partnership is what it takes.

Well, speaking of Brand, I think it shows the strength of yours that when somebody says we are Penn State. Exactly. I mean, it is like a. It's a thing that, like, no matter where you go. I mean, people know. I mean, it just shows the power of a. Of a brand. And so speaking of a brand, we. We can't let you go today without talking about athletics, you know?

Sure.

Penn State football in particular, is partly what is. Defined your university for good and bad over the last half century. You're. You're a member of the Big Ten, which has just announced this huge expansion and then followed with an equally huge television deal. Sure, there's slow movement in letting athletes partake in some of that money flowing into athletics, but it seems in recent years that college athletics has really moved to a kind of a different universe. I mean, I watched the season opener of Penn State football on a Thursday night on national television. Right. Like, it just. It's just all. It's. It's everywhere now. And so there's basically college sports now whenever you want them. You know, I get the Big Ten network like everybody else, and I can watch volleyball and gymnastics and softball at any moment of any day. You know, is the. Is the role of athletics in college, especially at Division 1, especially at these big universities, is it a little bit out of whack? And specifically, what is the role of a president to ensure that this is still a piece of the university? A piece. And not the tail that wags the dog. Right. So what is the role of the president?

I think the president has a huge role in this. And should. I think the problem is when the presidents do not have that control and do not have that purview. I'm a big believer in clear lines of sight and accountability. You said it. Well, I've always said athletics is a big part of the university, but it's only a part. It's when we forget that I am proud at Penn State. Even last year, I believe 92% graduation rate for our student athletes, and that's among the highest, as you know. So that's also been part of the tradition of Penn State that we will stay true to that. It's student athletes, and we make a commitment and realization that athletics does help. Okay, this is super corny, but one of my marketing principles is to keep it as simple as possible. But I talk about the ABCs of student success. Okay? Academic preparedness for life after, a sense of belonging, containing costs. When I use that lens, athletics actually is a great asset because for the people who do participate, we provide all three. And when I think about football, I make no bones about the fact that for Penn State and for so many other universities, it. What it helps us maintain 31 sports, right? Not all of them are revenue sports, the Olympic sports. So we need to keep that in perspective.

Neely, this has been an enlightening, inspiring and instructive conversation. So thank you so much for joining us in Future youe.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's been a complete delight.

Terrific. And for those listening, we'll be be right back.

This episode of Future youe is sponsored by Ascendium Education Group, a nonprofit organization committed to helping learners from low income backgrounds reach their education and career goals. Ascendium believes that system level change and a student centric approach are important for our nation's efforts to boost post secondary education and workforce training opportunities. That's why their philanthropy aims to remove systemic barriers faced by these learners, specifically first generation students, incarcerated adults, veterans, students of color, adult learners, and rural community members. For more information, visit ascendiumphilanthropy.org.

Welcome back to Future. You A lot in Neely's story that we got to dig into there. The cultural context for her story is fascinating and it becomes not just how Indian I think the story is, but also how American the story ends. And I admire so much of that.

Jeff yeah, I think, Michael, how the how American the story ends is a good way to frame it. You know, the Times higher ed rankings of global universities came out recently and all the headlines made a big deal on how Chinese universities are gaining ground on American institutions. And while that may be the case on the research side, I still think the story of American higher ed changing lives resonates around the world, although not to the scale it has in the past, certainly. But I still think that stories of Americans or international students transformed by American universities are still there. And unfortunately I think they're becoming less common because of other issues that we talk about on this show, such as affordability, value of degrees, etc.

Well, look, Jeff, we could gush all day about the story. We really appreciated what she's done, her leadership style, so much of what she said and shared, and to boot that she's a listener of the future you podcast, independent of us having her on. But I suppose we shouldn't just fawn, we should react some. Jeff so I'll start with an observation which is I like how she doesn't take the value proposition of higher ed for granted. And I guess I asked the question with Jason Wingard when we had him on the podcast, so I'll ask it here as well. She has a very different tone, Jeff, from Jason's. She wants some more public money from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to level the playing field and make a dent in affordability, although not actually costs, I'll note for what Penn State is offering for students. But I really appreciated how she said the financing situation with the legislature is isn't the fault of anyone in that body today. And I personally gravitate Jeff, to that that kind of solution seeking rather than the blame game. But I guess here's the question which is will it play in Peoria or in this case Harrisburg? As a Pennsylvanian with family ties to Penn State, do you expect changes from the politicians?

Michael, I know this won't make me popular among our public university friends, but I think the days of continually trying to get more from the state legislature for institutions and not just students, for example, especially when it's based on these old enrollment driven formulas, I think those days are really over. So while I appreciate, as Neely said, Penn State has been underfunded all these years and we need to focus on getting to the level that we should be at, as she said, I think that runs into two realities right now. First is that state budgets, while overall healthy right now, are potentially headed into a recession as we've been talking about. You know, California after all these years of record surpluses for example, might face a revenue drop of $40 billion during a recession. And as Rick Levin reminded us when he was on last season, healthcare costs continue to eat away at state budgets. So I think that portends in Pennsylvania and other states a different way of thinking about public financing. Performance based funding has become a much bigger share of budgets in many states. And given how central Penn State is to the economy of that state, but that as a state related in land grant and flagship has access to other revenue streams and that's exactly what lawmakers are going to say. Perhaps it's better if the university thinks more strategically about where it needs the money. For example, Pennsylvania is still a very old economy and many towns in the state are are really struggling. So what if the state copies something the NSF is doing with its NSF engines which focuses on catalyzing and fostering innovations in regional ecosystems. What if we did that same thing at the state level, for example in Pennsylvania? So we revitalized, for example my hometown of Wilkes Barre, Scranton. I think what's needed is that the value of higher ed isn't only seen by state residents who get to experience it. But but going back to truly the land grant mission which really helps the economy and residents as a whole. And I think Neely gets that since she told us that she doesn't think higher ed truly explains how much we are an engine for economic development within the areas we serve. Right. She just told us that there is understanding that, though, and then there is executing on that.

Yeah, Jeff, I mean, from my perspective, I think she'll really have to work on how to share that value proposition. And it can't just be about the data, although that's important. But it has to be about the right stories and the right data together that really plugs into the progress that the individuals in Pennsylvania, these are the voters, potential students, family, the politicians alike that they want to make. And that takes work. You know, you really have to understand their jobs to be done. It goes back to that. And I also, you know, I don't want to shock you too much here, Jeff, but I like how she reframed that. The many campuses in the Pasche system that are in declining population centers in the Commonwealth. She reframed it as assets, Jeff, but she did so around what makes them distinct and tied into the economics and industry of the region. So although it does suggest that the campuses probably have to be dramatically streamlined and then use the merging work that Dan Greenstein is doing to make sure that they thoughtfully share resources, attract and courses, make extensive use of digital and online learning so that they don't replicate costs. But I guess my question here is that maybe you didn't expect me to say I see value in these local campuses. You obviously have paid frankly a lot more attention than have I to the migration of populations and jobs to cities. So I'm curious your thoughts.

So, Michael, I'm just kind of laughing at this because my 13 year old asked the other night why we have so many colleges and universities in this country, because whenever we're on road trips, as you know, on the, on the side of the highway, near exits, they always say college X here, college Y here. And they're literally, when we go on some of these road trips, in the Northeast particularly, they're at every single exit. And in Pennsylvania that's particularly true because like in Ohio, where former governor Jim Rhodes once said Ohio needed a campus within 50 miles of every state resident. Well, that worked back in the 50s and 60s and 70s, but in a day and age when we have the digital tools we have, do we necessarily need a physical representation of a campus within 50 miles of every, of every state resident? And so there's three things I'm thinking of in this way when it comes to Penn State and those Commonwealth campuses, as they call them, the first, is there a way to tie the physical campuses of Penn State in more with the Penn State global campus? Because when the Penn State global campus started 20 plus years ago, it was really a leader in online education. And I think it now has been surpassed by a lot of our friends that we know at wgu, asu, Southern New Hampshire, and even the efforts like the University of Maryland global campus. So is there a way where we could think about competency based education, prior learning, where they could be much more advanced in kind of combining the goals of the regional campuses with Penn State global Campus to create more hybrid experiences for students so that they don't necessarily need to think of these fully engaged, residential, in some cases residential, but mostly, you know, face to face institutions. Second, you talked about dramatically streamlining and I think it definitely has to focus on the local economy. Like many states, Pennsylvania is huge. It has micro economies in many ways. Could we really tie the focus of these campuses, the programs on these campuses, the degrees on these campuses to tie in with the needs of the local economy? Where there's growth in the local economy, I think that would make them much more valuable to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania so that they're not just seen as another campus of Penn State, but are really seen particularly by the local population as helping them. And then finally really kind of focusing on the credentials, particularly the degree to make those better. You know, most of these Commonwealth universities used to be transfer institutions to University Park. In the late 1990s, a lot of four year programs were offered there or added there so that they would become basically an endpoint in themselves. But I think, Michael, we heard recently from the president of George Mason that their articulation agreement with Northern Virginia Community College enables students to start at nova, eventually go to George Mason, feel like they're part of both institutions and you know, they have an 80% completion rate on those, on those students. Well, could we imagine the same thing in Pennsylvania? So that we don't necessarily think of all of these campuses as four year campuses or by the way, even two year campuses necessarily, but as an on ramp? Because I think that's going to be critically more important given the huge drop in enrollment over the last couple of years. Could there be multiple on ramps to higher education? And could we think of these Commonwealth campuses as something different than a four year or two year on ramp to higher education?

Love that vision. We'll have to keep looking for places to disagree at some point, Jeff, but for now I think that's a good, good place to end the show. A huge thank you to Neely for joining us and a hearty good luck as she embarks upon her journey leading Penn State. And a thank you to you, our listeners, once again for joining us on this episode of Future you. We'll see you next.

Sam.