Live from ASU-GSV, Day 2

This is Future youe with Jeff Salingo and Michael Horn.

Welcome to our second special edition of Future youe, Future youe Live, where we're recording at ASU GSV in front of a live audience.

Yeah.

And particularly excited because we have a guest co host tonight, Goldie Blumenstick from the Chronicle for Higher Education. Goldie was one of our first guests on Future youe. And then when Jeff couldn't be here tonight, unfortunately, Goldie stepped right in. And there she goes, getting ready to really be a co host. And welcome, Goldie, to the show.

Thank you very much. I'm really excited that this is a happy hour podcast because I'm happy houring.

Yeah, there you go. And we're properly making sure everyone's enjoying themselves. So, Goldie, I'm curious because obviously this is the 10th year of ASU GSV. I don't think you were here in the first year of it.

No, I started the seventh year, seventh year.

Okay.

It was still back at Arizona and there was still dinner at Arizona State

back then before we outgrew Arizona. Yep. And so it's interesting though, this conference has gone from like 150 people or something like that to 4800. In your mind as a journalist? I'm just curious, covering this, is it a must attend event? Like, what's the nature of it from your perspective?

Well, given what I cover, it's become definitely a must attend event because I write a lot about the areas of innovation in and around higher ed. And I guess increasingly this is a lot about the innovation around higher ed. Not directly in higher ed, but many of the people that are doing things that have an impact, you know, at the edges of higher ed and maybe fundamentally more importantly, things that are becoming more fundamental to higher ed, but from the outside. So, yeah, for me it's. I can't miss this one now.

Yeah. Well, so it's a perfect. And it's a perfect topic to bring up. Our first guest, Chalk OI of Kenzie Academy. Welcome to the show, Chalk.

Thank you, Michael.

I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners don't know what Kenzie Academy is. You're one of. Within sort of our circles, you're one of the hotter companies to emerge. And last night we had Ryan Craig on who talks a lot about last mile providers. So you fit into that category. But can you describe what Kenzie Academy is and the big problem that you're trying to solve?

Yeah. So last mile, but longer last mile. We basically, we are a career college that focuses on Training people into high paying jobs in technology or tech related careers. Our programs are longer than many coding boot camps, so it's usually 12 months to one or two years, but less than half the time of a traditional four year college. So we pretty much unbundle a lot of best practices that we get from boot camps and colleges to create a new model where we can serve a larger demographic. And we focus on the American heartland, where we think innovation will come over the next few decades.

Why the American heartland? Is that just where you're from or do you see some gap there?

I actually moved from the east coast to Indianapolis to start, you know, the academy two years ago. But that's where we see, as you all know, there's all this talk about Silicon Valley being way too expensive to operate and to live even, you know, making six figure salaries, you are below the.

I mean it's tough to afford housing out there.

Yeah, yeah. So where we see the trend, and many people don't realize until you spend a lot of times in places like Indianapolis, Ohio, all these places, there are a lot of reemerging cities in the Midwest, in the south that are going to be a lot of new tech hubs and tech centers that will attract a lot of new jobs that are coming. So we believe that number one problem in all the cities as well, if you go to talk to the founders, there is access to qualified talent. We see the universities are trying to keep up with how fast things are changing at the workplace. So you know, we see an opportunity to skew up that talent so that it makes the cities attractive to continue to attract more jobs coming from the coast as well as locally homegrown tech jobs.

So I'm curious, can you get into the guts of the program like a little bit more of what does it look like for a student to come in and what's that experience actually like over a year to two years. And what's the variability there?

So we serve a very wide demographic of students. So students who are adult learners 17 to 52 average 27. But we're also with a degree pathway that we're about to announce. A little hint over here. Yeah, it's coming. A little teaser. We are also will be able to serve a lot of 18, 19 year olds who are looking for a true alternative to college. But they still get to go home to their parents with a piece of paper that says a computer science or business degree.

Give us the scoop, tell us a little bit more. Come on.

Coming soon, Coming soon.

We like future you.

Yeah, Are you looking at something that's going to be accredited or do you still see this happening sort of outside that realm?

So this will be accredited computer science program. So students will still have the opportunity if you know, mostly adult learners who just need training and a pathway towards a good job. Many of them will just do like a 12 month Kenzie and go on to find a job. Whereas people who has more time and want to get a earn a degree can hopefully do a two to three year Kenzie and graduate with a computer science.

Why do you see the degree as important? What specifically about that signaling mechanism or is there something else about it that's important?

Yeah, so despite a lot of my peers were saying, you know, it's a medallion and we need to do away with it, we still see a lot of value because it is still, you know, even though we have a lot of progressive employers like JP Morgan and Apple and all, we no longer require a degree for hiring. But still vast majority of the industry still requires some level of signaling. So we believe it's too important. And especially we serve a lot of underserved communities and for them it's a rite of passage. Being able to get a degree is actually a big part of accessing higher education. So we still want to make that available to them. But at the same time we also want to train them on modern, tangible, hard, technical skills to so that when they have this piece of paper they also have skills that employers will actually want to hire them.

How do you reach out to the communities that you're trying to serve? I mean, is it traditional marketing or are there some other, are you working through workforce boards or sort of other kinds of organizations considering that you're actually trying to get a different demographic?

So there's definitely a combination of marketing, digital marketing and a few source of marketing. But we believe the best source is through partnerships because of the target demographic we want to serve. So we work with unemployment officers of the state, we work very closely with the state government, we work with a lot of nonprofit groups like Goodwill is a good partner that sent a lot of high caliber students to Kenzie. We work with Jacks Jobs for America graduates. So a lot of this organization that some are regional and some are national collectively allow us to reach, you know, tens of hundreds of thousands of people.

So Chuck, I'd love you last question. Thinking forward 5, 10 years, what does success look like and how have you transformed the broader landscape of higher ed? What does that start to look like in your mind?

So higher ed today is very Sequential. It's almost like you have to do things right and follow a certain pathway to proceed. And what we really want to do is really change it into a spider web where there are multiple on ramps and off ramps and also continuous learning. We're in a world today where you can get a degree and then work the same job for, for the rest of your life. The world is changing too rapidly. So we want to create opportunities for people to access different parts of higher ed throughout their life journey based on their life situation and give that opportunity for the work to be articulate and transferable between institutions and not just in a very rigid, stringent pathway.

Well, thank you for joining us. In future you we'll be looking forward to watching your journey and we'll be right back. Now we're delighted to bring on our next guest, Rahim Rajan of the Gates Foundation. You've been there for a while at the Gates foundation actually, right, Raheem?

That's true. I'm hitting year eight.

Are you the longest tenured in the post secondary success as of three months ago?

I'm officially the longest tenured, yes.

Okay, congratulations. That's a bit of a milestone.

Thank you.

So I'd love for folks that aren't up to speed on what the Gates foundation is doing in this area. Can you talk about your thesis right now on the post secondary market, what you're trying to impact and how?

Yeah, in some ways our strategy has remained relatively consistent. We're focused on helping low income students and students of color achieve better outcomes in post secondary education. That's been our core strategy. I think, you know, what I would say is that we are very concerned about the value that students are gaining out of higher education. When you have a situation where low income students or students of color can enter higher education and actually not succeed and incur worse outcomes than if they had never entered, that's certainly not a good situation. So we are very concerned about that. We are thinking about how it's not just about a meaningful completion of a post secondary credential, but a credential of value. So what does that mean? Right. Completion with a purpose. What's the economic benefit of the credential? What's the kind of the social mobility return of that credential?

So Rahim, you guys have been spending a lot of money in this sector for a while. Where do you think? So far you've actually had some success.

So I think we, you know, I think we've had some success in understanding whether number one, can institutions fundamentally transform their operating models, their economic models, their educational models to literally close some of those equity gaps and attainment gaps. And I think we have examples of that. We have more examples today than we had five or 10 years ago. The other thing is, I think in some of the intervention areas where we've invested, we're beginning to see change at scale that has real meaningful impact on students.

And where have you blown it?

You know, I don't know if we've blown it, but I think we've learned. There are things that we've learned. You know, you can, you can build early stage companies, but there's an entire ecosystem that needs to be structured for those companies to succeed. We don't always have those kinds of environments in education.

Then you have these people kind of operating out there without any.

Well, I just think we don't. The markets we operate in don't operate in a rational way. So for example, efficacious solutions don't always win market share in these markets. Investors don't always invest in the things that have the greatest efficacy evidence, for example, and colleges and universities don't always invest in those things that are going to benefit students the most. Right. There's a lot of mixed incentives in what colleges do and how they operate. So I think we work oftentimes with market failure and that's kind of the environment we work in. And we're trying to fix some of those market failures.

Well, that's what I was going to say. You're not just, I mean, obviously you're a participant to some extent in the market in that you're funding actors in it, but you're also trying to shape the macro environment in which higher education operates to some degree as well.

Absolutely.

So what are the steps that you're taking to try to change that in any way or what do you think is just not going to pay dividends no matter what you do?

Well, I think one of the areas where we've been very interested in over a long period of time is ensuring that higher education has access to, to really rigorous data about student performance and really understanding the journey that students are on, especially for low income students, underrepresented minority students, where we weren't always able to access data about outcomes. And so that's some of the work we've invested with ihap around the metrics framework, the post secondary data partnership. But I think in other ways also, I think there are certain market failures where we have invested a lot of energy and we're starting to see dividends and better student impacts.

It's interesting that you call it a market failure, because some people would say, well, the market's spoken. It's not a failure. It's. Maybe the strategy isn't right or it's not on target.

Say more.

Maybe your strategies aren't right.

That's interesting. I think the reality of what colleges are facing, whether it's the decline in enrollments, the greater focus on accountability, the demand students have for meaningful degrees and success, I think all of those are bearing down pressures on higher education that are not going to go away. And so more and more colleges and universities are actually very eager to figure out ways for some of those colleges. It's existential. The reality of whether they'll be around in five or 10 years is a meaningful reality. And I think we used to talk about that. You know, people used to talk about that five or seven years ago.

Those in the podcast that can't see. He just pointed at me.

It was seen as hyperbole. It was seen as hyperbole, right? Like, and maybe we got the numbers wrong, but there are certain segments of the market that are feeling a lot of pressure. And so, you know, we care about the success of certain student populations and closing those equity gaps. I think, you know, I think the things that we have invested in are fundamentally the right things. They're about the student experience and improving that student experience for students and ensuring that low income students and students of color can attain much better outcomes. I think those are the right things for us to be leaning in on as a philanthropy.

So you have a unique bird's eye view of this. And I guess my last question is of the things that you're not investing in, but you're seeing as promising. What are you exciting about? What are you excited about? And what should we be paying attention to as we look at this evolution of this higher education space?

So one of the things that we are not significantly investing in yet, but which is of a lot of interest to us is how these sectors connect. So what I mean by that is, you know, the students we're trying to help are operating through multiple systems and, and those systems connect and they ought to do a better job of connecting. And so whether it's K12 to post secondary or whether it's post secondary to workforce, we are very interested in those bridges between these systems and the inefficiencies in those bridges. Now, that's not to say that we are going to retreat from the core strategies that we have, but we are beginning to think about how these things connect, especially because the student experience is a uniform experience. So where can we create efficiencies that benefit those students along that journey? That's the thing that we're very interested in looking at and probably going to be doing more investments in.

Well, we'll look forward to seeing where that takes us. And Rahim, thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you.

And we'll be back on Future youe.

This episode of Future youe was made possible with support from the Academy for Innovative Higher Education Leadership. The Academy is a partnership between Arizona State University and Georgetown University and is the premier training ground for those who aspire to senior leadership positions in higher education and those who want to lead organizational change at colleges and universities in the future. This episode was also made possible with support from Entangled Solutions. If you want to shape the future of education, Entangled Solutions would like to hear from you. Entangled Solutions is hiring smart, mission driven team members interested in helping world class institutions solve their most vexing challenges in learning and education. Learn more at Entangled Solutions.

Our next guest on the podcast is Eric Dahr, the president of Harrisburg University that Goldie the Chronicle recently actually profiled and the efforts that you've spent turning around the university and growing it.

Yeah.

Hi Eric. You know, I loved reading that story because when I've spoken to you before, it was all about esports and I had no idea that you had done all these other strategies at the college there. One of the things that struck me about that story was how it described your strategy of, I guess I would, I don't even know if I should call it outsourcing or collaboration. But you do a lot of things taking advantage of resources that are beyond your campus. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Right. So the, you know, I think part of the interest in the Chronicle and the, and the author in what we do is the speed with which we operate and the speed with which we're able to introduce new programs and make change. And part of that, the ability to do that is to use outsiders and to not feel like it has to be, we have to have done it. And higher ed, with all due respect, is, you know, I'm one of the evil higher ed people that we keep talking about. Right. And they're blast, but you know, disembodied. Right, Exactly. Right. So, so, but you know, for example, we have certain toys, meaning we have equipment in our lab, we have drones, we have fairly sophisticated cameras and interactive media things that our brethren, liberal arts universities that sit around us don't we don't have a national nano fabrication lab. Penn State, right up the street from us, does. So we use their toys and we make our toys available to them. And to me, that's a cost savings for us and a win for the students because they have access to toys that we can't afford or won't afford. And likewise, students at liberal arts universities that sit around us can fly the leading sophisticated drones that their faculty will never invest in.

And since we now have you speaking for all of higher ed, why doesn't that happen more often?

Well, I think it's a control issue. I think it's, well, if we don't control it, then how do we know what the quality is? Or we don't have our hands on it? Maybe our faculty don't understand how to use a given gizmo or a given toy. Therefore, we feel somewhat inferior. And if it's just providing access, then we don't really want to do that.

So I'd love you to lay the context of how you came then to this perspective that sharing and this more of a consortium approach, for lack of a better word, is the way to go and sort of lay the context for our listeners around where Harrisburg University was as you came on board.

Well, so Harrisburg University is a private, nonprofit, comprehensive university, kind of constructed in the old traditional way that universities are built in a world where today you don't see these things being built. We were the first one in Pennsylvania since Carnegie Tech 100 years ago. Nobody knew how to found a university. So we. Or a startup business. That's literally the way I looked at it anyway. And you don't have a lot of money as a startup.

Right.

So you bootstrap. That's what startup companies do. And so we, as a startup university, bootstrapped. We outsourced cleaning, we outsourced security, we outsourced housing, we outsourced. We have no dining halls. We use vendors that sit around us. We take advantage of the Pennsylvania state system library system so we didn't have to build a library. We took that approach with everything we do. And so, you know, look, I'm not going to spend $10 million on a nanofabrication lab. Penn State used federal taxpayer dollars to build it.

Fine.

You paid for it.

I paid for it.

Right?

Me personally.

Right.

You know, and I appreciate everybody in this room helping to pay for that. So, you know, and now our students get to spend a semester abroad in beautiful State College, Pennsylvania, going to the nano fabrication laboratory. I'm glad somebody, one person Got that joke. So that was great.

More broadly, I think just for the sake of people listening, when you took over the college, it was not doing. It was not in such great shape.

No, it was very well chronicled, pun intended.

We want everyone to read the article,

but just in case they don't set of financial problems. So I helped found the place and I was chief financial officer, so I kind of was somewhat responsible. But then when I took over as president in 2012, we had $75 million debt. We had a 3.2 million dollar annual debt service, which is kind of like a mortgage. And we had $300,000 in the bank, not even enough to make payroll for a period of time and keep lights on, let alone meet debt service.

And so what steps did you take besides the sharing that we've been talking about?

Well, so fundament. So the university was founded to provide access to students that otherwise wouldn't have access for science and technology. Read African American students and women in science and technology. Not a lot of money, not a really sustainable business model, particularly for those focused on just central Pennsylvania or eastern part of Pennsylvania. But what we did over those early years was build world class science and technology programs with world class faculty. All right, A small set of them. So we started looking around in 2012. What are other markets for these programs that we've built that are fairly unique, that are the highest quality, and that led us to international markets, to graduate programs. We have no arenas, we have no fraternities and sororities. We're unabashedly about career education. And so graduate students don't care about, you know, all the stuff that some undergrads do. Graduate students just want to succeed. And so the graduate programs, that's predominantly graduate.

You are correct.

So I want to go one level deeper in terms of the overall context and lessons we can extract from this because there are a lot of struggling universities right now. We've on this podcast had the president of Simmons University that turned that around dramatically. We've had other presidents of small colleges that have done remarkable things. And you're operating in a state where the state system itself of colleges is under significant duress.

Correct.

And so what lessons do you take out that you would tell other presidents and system leaders that they ought to be doing to. You know, obviously your cookbook, if you will, is specific to your university.

Right.

But what are the broader lessons?

I would say, you know, don't be so heavily tied to what you've done in the past. The past is what has led to where you might be today.

Right.

So because you have, I mean, it sounds silly, but. Right. You have pressure, you know, universities have pressure from trustees and from alumni to remain the way they are and from faculty that are embedded in the way they have behaved for decades, if not hundreds of years. And so you have to figure out a way as a president to change things to get outside of those system limitations, whether that means you change out your trustees, or whether that means you just affiliate with alumni that are willing to change and to advance the future, or whether that means you co op with a small set of faculty that are forward thinking. But that's really the challenge for presidents in universities that have been around for very long time that are bound by system constraints.

Eric, thanks so much for joining us, sharing the story and providing some ideas for other university leaders.

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

And our next guest on Future youe is Eleanor Cooper, the co founder and CEO of Pathstream. And I suppose the first question, Eleanor, is what is Pathstream? Obviously incubated out of Entangled, but can you give our listeners who probably haven't heard of Pathstream yet an overview of what you're doing and the problem you're solving?

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So the problem that we're solving is that the digital skills gap is growing. And there are three root causes here where employers are having a hard time hiring for this growing job. Categories that require digital skills and they're low code skills like digital marketing, data analytics and graphic design. And at the same time, software companies want to reach new users, but they're not educators. And at the same time, higher education wants to prepare their learners for the careers of the future, but it's hard to keep up with the pace of technology. And so, and so the problem that we have here is the growing skills gap. And therefore so many people are being left out of the modernizing tech economy without an on ramp. So what Pathstream does is we partner directly with software companies such as Facebook and Unity to build this digital skills curriculum that prepares people really directly for these high growth career areas like digital marketing, like data analytics. And then we bring that to our college and university partners so they can offer these programs. And it's the alternative to having boot camps pop up and having all of these skills and careers being taught outside of the system. How can we make it so that higher education at a systems and at a scale level is meeting the needs of the growing workforce?

Speaking my language right now, I just finished up a big project on the skills gap and what I Heard over and over again, sort of at every level is the power of these digital skills even particularly for liberal arts graduates, but also for everybody else. So how does the model work? Are colleges paying you? Are the students paying you?

So the colleges. So the software companies are actually paying us to help build the programs. They have lots of content, but it's very specific to software platforms like Salesforce

or things like that.

Yes, exactly. So our software partners pay us to round out the curriculum, make sure it's preparing people for careers. And this is part of the way they give back, not only as the right brand that they want to have in the community, but but also realizing their customers are having a skills gap need. And so there's a business case to be made for this.

Yeah, there's a business model for them too. I mean, they need these customers. Exactly right.

Okay. And then on the higher education side, our higher education partners pay us for providing the service of really being the interoperator between their higher education system and many software companies that they would like to have partnerships and like to have content from.

And so these early partnerships with universities talk more about them. And where are you seeing the most traction of colleges that are saying, yeah, that's a value proposition. I acutely feel that we don't have, but that we need to be able to educate people on these platform centric skills.

One of the biggest value proposition that first resonates is that we actually our curriculum is branded by the software companies. Pastream is white labeled. And so students actually graduate not only with the higher education certificate, but with a certificate from the software company.

So if I'm in your platform and I'm working through the Facebook digital marketing, I leave with actual Facebook credential in addition to credit toward my degree.

That's correct. So you leave with the Facebook certificate in digital marketing. And so, and that that's, you know, colleges realize that having multiple skill signals that certificates are the fastest growing credential category. And it gives students something, you know, in addition to their broader degree area that really shows that they have modern skills for the workplace.

Are colleges doing this as part of their traditional curriculum or is it this thing that's on the side in the extension program or no?

Great, great question. And that is really a core part of, I think the value proposition that we have to both the higher education partners and the tech partners is we really work with our higher education partners to make sure that these certificate programs are stackable towards associate's degrees and bachelor's degrees and are not just an Extension program outside of the lifeblood of the university, but really are part of the core classroom and core competencies.

So how do faculty react to that? When you're, that's where you go.

How do you sell that at the faculty meeting?

There's a wide range of reactions, I would imagine.

Yeah. So give us the best reaction and the funniest reaction.

Well, so our first faculty member who taught the first cohort of digital marketing students, hands down, her comments afterwards was it was such a relief to know that I had high quality relevant content that was up to date for my students so I could focus on teaching and, and focus on building community in my classroom and didn't have to worry about building content the whole time as a whole nother job. And I think that's particularly valuable for our adjunct faculty members who maybe don't have time to be constantly updating curriculum. Then we also have the other end of the spectrum with faculty who say I have an amazing program and I don't need your help.

And when you confront that is it, who at the university is your advocate?

You know, advocates come from all over. Many of the leaders of our community college system presidents are. This is very much aligned with the types of programs that they want to be offering. And so we often at the president or chancellor's level have an advocate, but you need to have faculty. If the faculty don't want to do it, the program's not going to succeed. And so it's really spending a lot of time with them of them understanding that we, we're cut out of the same cloth as they are. We care about student outcomes, we're not trying to teach, put a software platform in their classroom for the sake of, you know, marketing. This really is career preparation.

Yeah. And so I guess, I mean in many ways you solve this problem. It seems that colleges are facing where rounding out the curriculum with very, in this case extremely relevant, not even just like sort of the latest codings language, but actually skills that will directly be marketable because of the certificate you'll earn. I would imagine a lot of presidents would be clamoring for this. Is that sort of the reaction you're getting also on that side or what's their deep seated fear?

I mean honestly, we have had great traction, I can say in our first sort of nine months of working on this, we partnered with over 20 colleges to integrate aspects of these types of programs. So there is a lot of interest though.

This changes fast, right? I mean what's, what's the hot skill right now becomes the dead skill a year later when another company becomes the hot company. So how do you kind of adapt to that?

That's a great question. I think that is the reason why there needs to have this interoperable kind of middle piece component. Because if you teach someone very specifically how to use Tableau as a tool and where are all the buttons in Tableau, that's a very different program than when and why and how are you applying this in a work context where you take out Tableau and you put in the newest looker or whatever other competitor they have. And it's a lot easier to learn that second digital skill because you learned it in the context of how to apply it on the job.

So which do you do? How to think about it or how to push the buttons?

We do both, but we specialize in the former. And then there's aspects of it where you need to learn to click buttons, but oftentimes that's click on this resource if you want to know about more of the buttons in the software. We really focus on the former.

Terrific. Terrific. Eleanor, thanks so much for joining us on Future you. We are going to be eager to watch how this develops.

Thanks so much.

So a fascinating set of guests that we've had on Future you. We've been through 10 guests in two nights for today. Goldie, any big takeaways that you have? And obviously that last one speaks to you because you have a report coming out on this topic.

Yeah, I do, actually. It's coming out next week. It's all about the skills gap. And so I'm kind of excited to think a little bit more about some of the things I heard today because I think some of the ideas that we heard also from the Kennedy Academy idea, it all clicks. It's not this either or problem anymore. There's a lot of both in this discussion about the skills gap and how to solve it. If people think about this as kind of a narrow, it's either skills or it's college. That's sort of, that's not a helpful way to think about it. That's kind of the approach I took in my report as well. So it's nice for me to kind of hear these frankly, a little bit of endorsement for that idea.

Yeah, I mean it's interesting. We've had a range, you know, Ryan Craig was on yesterday talking about last mile providers and sort of going around universities. We also had Chip Palacek and Dan Sommer from Trilogy in 2U after that acquisition and then Chalk of course, and Eleanor and the story of Harrisburg University College coming up. And so there's actually a lot of counterweight I would suggest that says, hey, the university actually can be the central place that's a focal point for a variety of these experiences in almost a lifelong learning continuum, actually.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the whole premise of my report is that universities need to be, need to react but not be. They don't have to become reductive in this process. They can just, I mean, it's more often some small changes and some tweaks, maybe in some cases some bigger changes, but it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the university by any, by any, any sense of the word.

And I think that's a good way to leave it. React, but don't become reductive. So we'll use that as your Twitter hashtag. Many thanks to all of you for being in the audience. Many thanks to all of our guests for joining us on today's episode. Thank you to our producer Lauren Dibble, and of course, Steve Chagaris, who will be putting this all together and getting it out tomorrow. And thanks for being here for this live episode. And Goldie, thank you for co hosting, coming back on the show.

Thank you very much for having me.

Yeah.

And so for all our listeners, remember, as you tune into future you, if you like the show, please be sure to give us a five star rating on itunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And from ASU gsv, this is future. You.