Reporters Roundtable

This episode of Future YOU is brought to you by Nelnet Campus Commerce, Delivering payment technology for a smarter campus, and by Entangled Solutions. This is Future youe with Jeff Selingo and Michael Horn.

Welcome to Future youe. I'm Jeff Salingo. Today's episode is originating from the Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communications at Arizona State University in downtown Phoenix. My usual co host, Michael Horne is not with me on this episode, so we're going take a slightly different take on this episode. I'm joined by three former colleagues of mine at different stages of my career at the Chronicle of Higher Education, and all of them are still covering higher education in some way. Goldie Blumenstick, Sarah Hebel and Paul Fain. It's great to have all three of you here. Great to be here.

Thanks for having us, Jeff.

Great. Thanks, Jeff.

So I'd like to start off with Sarah because you're with a new entity called Open Campus. Can you tell us a little bit about what Open Campus is?

Yeah, it's a new nonprofit news organization that we started this year, my co founder, Scott Smallwood and I, another former colleague of all of ours. And we are aiming to transform local reporting on higher education. There's a most American cities don't have a dedicated higher education reporter, and we are working to put reporters in newsrooms across the country that would be focused on covering colleges.

Okay. Well, I think, Paul and Goldie, I think everybody probably knows everything about Inside Higher Ed in the Chronicle, but why don't you take a quick second maybe to tell us a little bit about what's happening at Inside the Higher Ed, Paul, that maybe our listeners might not know? Sure.

You know, one thing I still can't quite get my head around is we've been around for 15 years now at Inside Higher Ed, covering an industry that continues to change and keep us very busy.

And Goldie, you've been at the Chronicle for how long now?

It's 31 years and counting, twice as

long as Inside Higher Ed has been around. So what's, what's going on at the Chronicle these days?

Well, I think you've been seeing a new emphasis on newsletters, and I think we're going to be you'll be seeing a little more push, almost a doubling down on accountability journalism.

Okay. Well, it's great again to have all three of you here again. The format of our show today is going to be just really the four of us talking about some of the big things happening in higher ed and some of the stories that you're covering. You know, it's the beginning of 2020, so I'd love to hear from all three of you kind of looking back on 2019. If you look back on everything that you've done, what's the most important story you covered? Or maybe just the most interesting or fun story? Paul, I'll start with you.

Sure. Certainly an unusual story was working with a small admissions company called Admit that had come up with a database that tried to estimate the number of years private colleges had until they ran out of money and they named names in that database. And so we put in a lot of work to try to responsibly release that data. We created a sub site with the company so we kind of linked away. Didn't really put it in a very consumer friendly format so that it was really aimed more at trustees and decision makers and policymakers. That still didn't prevent the private colleges from fighting very hard and threatening us with multiple lawsuits. And while we were ready to go forward, Admit it was a small company and decided they didn't really want to provoke that much legal hassle for themselves. So they, they pulled the site. And I was disappointed. But on my way home I realized all of those legal threats and all of that interaction I had with the industry was on the record. So I went ahead and did a story about how the industry itself felt that that sort of data shouldn't see the light of day and had quite a response.

Kind of the self protection of the industry. How about you Sarah?

Well, I guess one thing that I really enjoyed this year and was eye opening for me was a road trip that Scott and I did down the Mississippi River. We went from Minneapolis down to New Orleans and we tried to find out what's missing in higher education coverage, what are people talking about outside of the wal of higher education that they care a lot about. And what we found were things we sort of knew but were really amazing to hear firsthand about why people feel disconnected from it, what they resent about it. And it's not just resentment, like anti intellectualism resentment. It's more sometimes they feel higher education is a game or they're not sure that their work experiences are accounting for as much as they should. So that was really fascinating. And it also reminded me of how much college is a pragmatic, practical decision for so many people. The concept of prestige was just nowhere in our conversations.

Yeah, it's always good to get into the Midwest, right? I talk about higher ed. How about you, Goldie?

Well, this year I pretty Much leaned very heavily into my new newsletter, the Edge, and that I covered a lot of different areas. But a couple themes kept kind of coming back to me which sort of struck me, one of which has even reverberated in the news in the last few weeks, which is just sort of this notion of the rise of the mega university and how these big, a few big online universities are sort of emerging in the marketplace. And that's got a lot of impact on other themes that have been kind of simmering out there, things about adult students, concerns about how higher ed will be working with employers and making students employable in the marketplace. And not just employable, but also obviously fulfilled. But these are and returning roi. And I think it's been interesting to me about how all these themes sort of, they circle back on each other and figure eight on each other and they all kind of relate.

Michael and I did a show a couple of weeks ago where we talked about kind of what's ahead for 2020. So let's talk a little bit about kind of the trends you're following or the stories you're most looking forward to. And Sarah, I'll start with you on that.

Yeah. So obviously the 2020 conversation will include a lot about free college and student debt. And student debt is something that we talk a lot about. And one thing I guess that I'd be interested in looking at over the year is to be a little deeper into what the problems really are on student debt, who really is being affected by it, what institutions or types of institutions for profits versus others and other cuts of the data to see really where this is the biggest problem.

And Goldie, how about you?

Well, I think we're going to continue here the conversation about whether which colleges are sustainable and going forward, I can't say whether that's a conversation I look forward to or not. I've been hearing a version of that for a lot of the years I've been working covering higher education. But I do think this might be an important year for that conversation and there might be some new dimensions to it as efforts like the one Paul described are being promoted, more people are looking to measure this. Also, I feel like I'm also since I talk to a lot of colleges about new ideas and new streams of revenue. So I think hopefully it'll become a little bit more nuanced as people talk about the ways colleges are responding. And the other thing I think we're going to hear a little bit more about, just based on some of the reaction I've received Already to some stories is I think the new we're going to hear a lot about rural students and the rural student need. I'm hearing that every time I write about that now. I get a lot of feedback from people and I hear about a lot of initiatives going on all around the country. So I think in the same way that. And I don't think it's just because my antenna are up on that. I think it's actually there's a lot of interest in it.

And Paul, I think the continued pressure, public and policymakers scrutiny on higher education to demand that it delivers return on investment is just going to continue to be a growing issue for the industry. The Varsity Blues admissions scandal, I think, really stuck in people's minds. And when you think about folks like Senator Ron Wyden from Oregon, a Democrat who you would think would be a traditional ally of higher education, saying if you do legacy admits, you're out of the federal aid eligibility, that's a pretty serious thing. And I think the industry might underestimate the lack of allies, frankly, in Washington and in state capitals, when folks are really pushing harder for colleges to show that they're delivering value. And in that context, you've got more data. You know, the Trump administration successfully produced debt and earnings figures for program level for all college programs. And you really have to keep an eye on how regulators, you know, accreditors might use that data to hold colleges accountable.

Yeah. I mean, the lack of allies everywhere, public, in the state capitals and in the federal government, I think is going to be the big issue going forward.

I mean, certainly public opinion polls are showing that right now. Right.

Paul, you brought up Varsity Blues, which obviously got a lot of coverage in the news last year. Some people might say it was hyped.

Right.

Because it talked, as usual, the media talking about elite selective colleges.

Not the media in this room, of course.

Not the media in this room, of course. But kind of going off that what trends right now in higher ed, you think people are probably maybe talking too much about or maybe they kind of misunderstand what's happening. You know, are there stories that you feel like people should be talking about more and they're not?

Great question. Yeah. We continue as a society to be totally focused on that top 1% of higher education. It's a very aspirational country. Everybody wants to be a millionaire, thinks they're going to be a millionaire. But when you look at, you know, frankly, real higher education, the 80% of students that don't go and live on a college campus There are some real problems you've got, I think a growing number of students that are unwilling to take on debt that worry about whether or not their credentials will get them the jobs that they want. And I think really the numbers haven't improved in terms of graduation rates and completion. You know, the Obama administration and the foundations put these big goals out there. And while the effort to encourage colleges and nudge them to do better on graduation may have prevented a worse outcome, it hasn't improved to the degree that it really should. And I feel like the level of that problem is probably underestimated by most folks who look at the industry.

What do you think, Sarah and Goldie, what other stories are kind of under reported out there that you think we should be doing more on?

Oh, I was going to go for the over reported one first.

I was going to follow on Paul.

Go ahead.

Yeah, so I mean, I think the same, I would say the same that Paul was saying that sometimes the media in general, I think in the national space at least talks about higher education as a national marketplace. It talks a lot about the elite institutions and a thing like Varsity Blues sort of feeds that frenzy. But for most Americans, higher education is a local issue. It's something that they go to college close to home. So more than half of the people, for instance, at public four years are going to college within 50 miles of where they live. This plays into what Goldie too was saying earlier about rural higher education and some of these counties and spaces in the country that are disconnected from some key programs and they feel disconnected from their colleges. And it's fueling some of the resentment that we see.

My over reported. Sorry. I mean, I feel like while I don't dismiss the importance of the free speech debate on campuses, I feel like a lot of that gets really hyped in the there's almost like a rage machine out there that sort of seizes on these incidents when they happen and people try to elevate them to something much larger than they really are. I don't think students are being deprived of their opportunity to have their opinions on campus and express them. If anything, a few professors who are a little bit out there are having their rights affected, but I don't think students are not are having a hard time getting their ideas out there.

And I'm wondering if that's related a little bit to what Paul was talking about. Kind of the 1% of colleges. Right. I remember Marvin Krisloff, who was at Oberlin and went to Pace, talked about just the difference in students right at pace. They're just interested in getting their degree, getting there, getting classes. Right. They don't, in some ways they don't have even time to protest.

And honestly, there's a little bit of an industry out there that works right now to sort of generate the rage about this thing and they play into the polarization that the country has about it. And colleges are a very easy palette on which to make that to play that out. But you know, it's a good soundbite, but I don't think it's really good journalism.

We're going to take a quick break here. I'm with Goldie Blumenstick of the Chronicle of Higher Education, Sarah Hebel of Open Campus and Paul Fain of Inside Higher Ed. And we'll be right back.

This episode of Future youe is brought to you by Nelnet Campus Commerce. Nelnet Campus Commerce delivers payment technology for a smarter campus. The secure payment solutions for higher education are PCI level 1 validated and integrate with every major ERP. From payment processing and refunds to payment plans and online storefronts, Nelnet Campus Commerce helps process payments on campus. Learn more@campus commerce.com this episode was also made possible with support from Entangled Solutions. If you want to shape the future of education, Entangled Solutions would like to hear from you. Entangled Solutions is hiring smart, mission driven team members interested in helping world class institutions solve their most vexing challenges in learning and education. Learn more at Entangled Solutions.

And welcome back to Future youe. I'm Jeff Salinga. We are in Phoenix, Arizona at Arizona State University. Michael Horne is not with me here, so I'm doing it solo this week and I have a great lineup Reporters Roundtable, as we're calling it with Goldie Blumenstick of the Chronicle of Higher Ed, Sarah Hebel of Open Campus and Paul Fain of Inside Higher Ed. We're kind of talking about the trends and stories kind of making the news these days. Goldie, you talked about 30 plus years now covering higher ed. What has changed the most about it since you've been writing it?

I've been thinking about that a little bit. I would say there's three things. First is the whole industry of higher education has become so much more bureaucratized. There's a lot more I'm going to make a few enemies right now. There's a lot more public relations people out there. There are a lot more people that sort of get in the way of the discussion of my being able to reach the people who are the most passionate about what they do. I think there are more organizations right now scrutinizing higher education. When I first started, it was basically the associations, and now there's like probably a dozen or two dozen interest groups and foundations and others who kind of put their mark, who try to put their mark on the policy. And I think both of those things kind of contribute to the third thing, which is suddenly we're seeing that the respect for higher education has fallen. And so I feel it's kind of interesting because I think as the authentic mission of higher education kind of gets muffled by some of this bureaucracy and as some of these other organizations kind of come in and add scrutiny to it, it doesn't help higher education.

Sarah and Paul, how about the two of you? You've not covered it as long as Goldie, but there's obviously been a lot of changes going on in the last 10 years. What have you seen, Paul, in terms of the changes you've seen?

Well, I think one of the biggest ones has got to be the students. Access has grown in the country. You think about UVA not admitting women until 1970, African Americans just before that. These days you have a far more diverse student population, a larger one, far more low income, frankly, under prepared academically and with really different needs and wants. People who are. Who really want to know that they're going to get a job, really want to know that they're making a safe bet and that they're taking on debt in a way that will pay off. And I think that has changed the whole industry in ways that I think has been fueled also. You know, I remember at the Chronicle, I used to work at the Chronicle, as you mentioned, before the recession, it just felt so different to me. The pressures on the industry, you know, each year, you know, kind of incremental change was easier to track. Now it feels like, you know, with the changing student body and the financial pressures that just get harder and harder, it feels like a very different industry to me.

And how about you, sir?

Yeah, to play into both of those, I think the extra scrutiny and extra interest in higher education means there's a lot more data now. I was just talking about that the other day, somebody about how when we looked at inequality or social mobility and hired role in that, that we were inventing our databases and now there are people like Raj Chetty and others who are helping us have a clearer understanding of college's role. And that I think is a good development. I mean, some of what's striking is how much hasn't changed. And sort of the continued trends that I followed when I started at the Chronicle are things that I'm writing about in my newsletter now at Open Campus. So whether that's the stress on public resources for higher ed or the college completion challenge and how do we better serve adult students? So those are looming, I guess, ever larger and becoming ever more prominent in the conversation.

Yeah. And I think what's interesting to me is kind of this fragmentation of higher education. I think Goldie hit when talking about the associations, right. When I first started at the Chronicle, the associations, especially the quote, unquote, one DuPont crowd in D.C. kind of really kind of controlled higher education. And now, no offense to all of our friends at 1 Dupont, but you don't call them as often. Right. Because you have a lot of think tanks, you have a lot of organizations that have been stood up somewhat by the foundations. You have the foundations themselves, and you have other groups. And you mentioned Raj Chetty, who has incredible amount of influence now because of the data he's been able to collect and analyze. So you have all this fragmentation now in terms of information and data not controlled by kind of the higher education conglomerate.

The other thing that's happened is there's been a lot more fragmentation within higher education. There's a lot more division between institutions that are very strong, wealthy, have a selective admissions policy, and then a lot of other colleges that are sort of in second and third tiers. Nobody likes to think of themselves in those other tiers, but it affects who they enroll, how much resources they get, and what they can do.

Yeah. I remember Bernie Matron, former president of University of Florida, telling me years ago that even within the aau, there was a divide between the publics and privates.

Right.

The privates didn't think they had anything to learn from the public research universities. So let's close out by talking a little bit about something I think some of our listeners might want to know about. Right. They have three reporters in the room. I could imagine if I had a couple of PR people waiting out there in the hallway, how excited they would be to. To be able to pitch you. So let's talk about what makes good stories, how you find your stories. You know, how people should pitch you. You know, let's. Let's spend a few minutes on that. Paul, why don't we start with you? You know, what do you. What makes a good story and how do you want people to pitch you news? Sure.

Yeah. I think that the best guide to what is a story for Inside Higher Ed is Does it connect to the issues that we about? You know, I think we're a national publication. How do you make a reader who cares about higher education in Maine read a story about what's happening in Southern California? Well, it's got to tie into these pressures, these areas of tension in the industry that's trying to serve its students better amid a period of tightened resources and public scrutiny. If thematically it relates to those, those areas of tension and change, that's the best way to really pique our interest.

Goldie?

Well, first of all, is it actually news? I mean, I get a lot of pitches about that are announcements and that's there's a very big difference between an announcement and news. News means something's changing, there's an interesting character involved. It really reflects a new development or a new take on the way something is being done. And it matters. To Paul's point, you know, maybe there's something new being done, but who the heck cares about that? Will it really make it, Will it make a difference in students lives? Will it make a difference? You know, we're a publication that also reaches serves universities. Will it make a difference in faculty members lives and, you know, our readers lives.

And Sarah, in terms of open campus, what do you care most about in terms of the news coverage you're going to provide?

We care a lot about impact. How is it affecting communities? How is it affecting people in places? And tell us about why it matters. Back to Goldie and Paul's points. And we want to know how colleges are influencing place and how they are serving people in those areas.

Let's get back to the concept of the pitch for a second. Right. There's information everywhere. You're everywhere, you're on social media. Are you really finding news through pitches anymore? Is that really how you're finding most of your best stories?

Best stories? No, but I welcome pitches. I'm not always able to answer as many as I get anymore, which I feel bad about, but that's just the reality of the day. By the way, you don't have to start your pitch to any one of us by saying I see you cover higher education.

We know that, we know that.

It's in the name. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to ever tell anybody not to pitch me something. I learn things every day. I'm not so arrogant to think that I know it all. I certainly want to know about the new things that are happening. But you know, they don't see the way we see it. They are seeing it from their perspective. We see it from a different perspective. We hear a lot of people talking about the same things all the time. And so what's new to this one person pitching us may not actually be new to us.

It's helpful to think about it as starting a conversation. And I always encourage people to be candid and to be human about it. And if you can come talk to me as opposed to pitch me a release, send me a note that's about something that's interesting to you that you think connects to something else. And I may not write a story about that exact thing, but it helps me think about these issues better. And someday when I'm writing about some of these issues, this particular anecdote or example is something I might come back to.

Paul, you were on the other side of this game for a brief moment in your career. Do you see this differently now that you saw kind of how people are working with the media?

Yeah, I do. I think that. I'll be honest, we do rely on intermediaries sometimes to help us. There's some very plugged in PR folks who, who know us well and work with a large group of clients and it can help us spot things. So I always had respect for people on that side of things. But seeing how hard it is for my brief time there, definitely have even more. But I will say I take advantage of your audience here to apologize to them, to build on what Goldie said. The volume is just astonishing these days. I used to try very hard to respond to people and I can't anymore. And I'm actually not responding to pitches that I actually do want to write about and I can't get to. And that, I think, gets to what Sarah and Scott Smallwood are doing with Open Campus, that the local media has really just fallen apart on these issues. Very few reporters covering it in a dedicated way. And I think people, you know, it's good for us in terms of being gainfully employed. But people rely on Inside Higher Ed as kind of local higher education coverage these days, even local accountability coverage. We've done some stuff in the last year that would never have come to us, would have gone to a local newspaper.

So that I think, gets into my last question that I didn't want to round out the show with today is kind of how the. So we've talked about how higher education has changed, but how has your jobs changed? I think that, you know, the higher education media is different. As Sarah talks about, you know, local reporters. I know at the Chronicle, right, we used to rely on local reporters to kind of as our tip sheets.

We used to have a clip service.

Right. Clip service, right. And you don't have that. So tell us a little bit, give us a little insight to kind of how your day is different now than it was 20 years ago or 10 years ago or 30 years ago. Goldie. I know, Paul, you tweet once in a while that your job is mostly answering emails now, which I always laugh about because I feel that's my job too. But tell us a little bit about how has the job, the job itself, do you feel changed of a higher education reporter or reporter in general that. That listeners might not know?

Yeah, I mean, I think that the 24, 7 aspect, it's hard to believe, but I work for a website that covers an industry, kind of a niche publication. But I still feel like I'm on call all day long and news is happening all the time. And you kind of, not only do you produce news on a website, but you amplify it with social media and it's just hard to keep up with. But I would tell you the one thing that's changed the most since I've been covering the industry now for 15 years is that I write about things that we would never have called higher education 10 years ago. It's post secondary training and education. We're all struggling with words that work. The non traditional student. I mean, they're the traditional, the majority student. But I'm writing about what employers are doing to quote, unquote, upskill their employees. And sometimes I kind of step back and say that actually is not anything close to what we used to write

about as traditional higher education.

We also care more about K12 dual enrollment. It's like the societal impact of post secondary education has bled well beyond the edges of the college campus now.

Sarah, how has the job changed?

Yeah, I mean, just to build on that, Higher Ed's role in society really has become much more prominent. It's interconnected with so many aspects and I think, I think we always saw that. And it's part of why I've always loved covering higher education. But it's becoming ever more clear. I would also say this is just a broader journalism thing and it plays into the 247 cycle. And the absence of local news in many areas, and especially in higher ed is the type of story that we do. The second day story that we used to think about, like day one, I give you some news of a thing that happened and day two is when I come back and give you some smart thinking on that there's no differentiation between those anymore. That first thing, because of everybody on their phones and ability to publish themselves, the thing that's happened, we need to come right away with telling you more about why that matters and what's at stake. So those questions become ever more important to doing journalism. Well.

Now, Goldeen, as the senior member of our little team here, how is it your.

It's changed in a ton of ways. I agree with everything that Sarah and Paul just said. For me, I've always sort of tried to cut a path at the Chronicle of covering the intersection of business and higher education. I called it business, but I really kind of meant the rest of the world in higher education. And I think the industry is kind of catching up to some of that at this point. There's a lot more stories like that right now where that matters. Technologically, obviously there's a lot of things that have changed, but for me personally also, what's changed is the nature of the interaction. I think we went from being kind of under this on high publication. Proclaiming what was happening in the news has kind of evolved as we've adapted to things like Twitter and, you know, Facebook. And for me, particularly in the newsletter, which is a conversation that I have with my readers in a very different way. I mean, you asked about pitches before. Sometimes now I get story ideas from the email I'm getting back from readers to my stories. It's we've kind of cut. I think that this is probably a trend that is just beginning in journalism. And I think we'll continue breaking down some of that wall between the reader and the publication and the reader. And I think that's probably going to be really good for everybody.

Being more personal.

Yeah, being there are human beings who are actually doing this work and trying to sort of show that to people with some, you know, that doesn't mean you just tell them what you think personally, you do still have to be a reporter. But sort of recognizing that there's knowledge on both sides of the discussion.

Well, that does it for this episode. So thanks to Goldie Blumenstick of the Chronicle of Higher Education and Sarah Hebel of Open Campus and Paul Fain of Inside Higher Ed for joining us. And especially thank you for listening. We love hearing from you. So please drop Michael and me a line with ideas, comments, questions or even complaints about the podcast and we'll see you next time. Hey folks, Michael Horn here. Hope you enjoyed the latest episode of Future you.

And just a reminder to please subscribe

to us on your favorite podcast platform and if you like the podcast, rate

us so that others can find us and find out about the good conversations

that we're having here. As always, thanks so much for listening.