Season 2, Episode 2: Will Pandemic Pods Disrupt Schools?

Hey, Michael.

Hey, Diane. Greetings from the site of my daughter's micro school because, oh, my God, you're a school founder. Yes, I'm a school founder now. I just wanted to join your ranks in more ways than one. And so we launched it in our backyard, and we're using the outdoors in New England, what that looks like in December. I'll get back to you. But, you know, we've got it going right now. Whether you call it a pandemic pod or a learning pod or whatever, and starting a school from scratch, well, you know better than I do. But it has been quite an experience, Diane.

It is unlike any other I think you'll ever have. I'm really excited to track your progress on that. And, you know, Michael, it's the perfect day to be launching the second season of Class Disrupted, because what we are trying to do here on Class Disrupted is to, you know, keep our fingers on the pulse of what's happening in education in America during a series of challenges and events that we're all facing, and certainly pods, micro schools, what you're doing is what a ton of families are tackling right now.

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. And so, along those lines, something that I really wanted to talk to you about in a story that I brought is this new report that came out from the Fordham Institute, which, for those that don't know, it's an education think tank. And they profiled a set of charter school networks like Summit, but not Summit, so strike one right against them. But they profiled these charter school networks that handled remote learning really well in the spring. And it details lessons from them that I am just dying to get your take on, because, candidly, some of it makes a lot of sense to me, but some seemed like what I would say, classic best practices, where they might work in one context, but not all contexts, and they didn't always feel consistent with what I've heard you all did. And so I just would love to give the parents and educators listening to this a more nuanced way to think about what successful schooling in a remote way looks like. And, you know, given that you run schools, I just need your guidance.

Well, thanks so much for raising that issue, Michael. And I'm in a similar boat, because what I really want to talk to you about today is learning pods. And not only you're doing them as a parent, but, you know, what I want to bring to you is, like, these things are a lightning rod already. I mean, overnight, people have lined up for and against them. And the reality is it doesn't seem like they're going to go away in the immediate future. And so I really want to. And some people are wondering if they're going to have a long term impact. I can't imagine someone better to talk to about that since A, you're doing it as a parent and B, this is what you think about all the time.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about that one. I've been spending a ton of time writing and recording and interviewing people about this, so that'll be a really fun conversation. But first, let's get started with my topic, if you're okay with that. So the Fordham report that I mentioned, it's called Schooling COVID 19 Lessons from Leading Charter Networks from their Transition to Remote Learning. It's by Greg Vanerack, who's written a lot about charter schools over the years and he's profiling eight school networks that made strong shifts to remote learning. So the networks just for people, so that they know which ones we're talking about. They were Achievement First, DSST Public Schools in Denver, IDEA Public Schools, KIPP D.C. specifically, KIPP has a lot of different networks. This was the Washington D.C. one Noble Network of charter Schools, Rocketship Public Schools near you, Success Academy and Uncommon Schools. And after they looked at them, they basically came up with five conclusions, if you will, that translated into action items for educators. So the first one made a lot of sense to me. Meet students social, emotional and nutritional needs. That's something we've talked a lot about, right? Social, emotional, emotional matters. You got to get the basics. I would add trauma. And a lot of those practices are really important to treat. The second one was the first episode of class disrupted was place technology in the hands of every student and educator quickly. I'm going to skip the third for a moment, come back to it. The fourth they had was reach out to individual students and families on a regular basis. I couldn't agree more with that. Like, there's got to be constant touch points, right? On a super personal, not mass level. And then fifth was an interesting one. We can talk more about that as well. But it was a brace, a team approach to teaching with a common curriculum at the center. And by that what they really meant was not leaving every single teacher to sort of figure it out and wing it on their own, but really having a strong, coherent curriculum that didn't just cut across all of say, English class, regardless of which school or teacher you had, but also connected English to all the different subjects and really have this unified approach to it. So a lot of that, as I said, felt commonsensical. But their third recommendation in particular hit me because it was recreate the structure of the regular school day and regular grading practices. And I paused on that because on the one hand, I'll be sympathetic. Like, I get it. They were saying there's so much turmoil. Certain families just needed the structure, even if that was a lot of synchronous zoom and a child on from, say, 8 to 3. Right. And on the other hand, like, while I could get that sort of intellectually, I had this reaction as a parent where I said, holy smokes. Like, you know, when my school for my kids last year started to put all this structure in place, Diane, like, as you know, on the one hand, it created some cool structure for the kids. And on the other hand, I was like, this is claustrophobic. This is crazy. It's not meeting my family where we are with the convenience we need and sort of ignores the possibility of really personalizing the learning and the context and creating a much more robust environment that meets each learner and family where they are. And so I'm just like, I'm dying for your take, because I don't think this is what you did. But on the other hand, you were already more innovative school network than many of these networks. And so. So maybe it is what you did. I love your take.

Well, like most things in education, Michael, it's a little bit complicated because on the one hand, what's good about this, and it is something we did, is we maintained a very regular, consistent, stable experience and connection for our kids so they could count on us being there for them each day. They knew that, you know, from the moment we left the building that, you know, there was going to be a regular cadence and experience. And we weren't, you know, we were very clear, as, you know, we didn't. We never called it distance learning. We named it virtual school. And we just said, you know, there's in person school and virtual school. We're still in school, we're still together. And those pieces are all really important, especially when you talk about trauma and, you know, the emotional and mental health challenges that people are dealing with right now. Because what people need is stability and constancy and consistency. So that part I'm really aligned with here. I think the part. And I'm sure you are, too, I think the part that might be giving you pause, though, is like, wait a minute, did they just try to do everything they were doing in the building on zoom and a lot.

Yeah, I think that is right.

Yeah. A lot of parents and kids experience this and it doesn't translate. Like the in person experience does not translate. And so that is what I think you're having the reaction to. And I agree with you there. And so, you know, it was very similar and you know this when we first started seeing online learning and people basically just took a person who was lecturing and like did the exact same thing online. And that wasn't good, good learning to begin with in person. And then you put it online and it's still bad. So I think that is the potential pitfall here on this one.

Yeah, that's helpful. I think the other piece that I was struggling with a little bit is on the one hand, I was glad that they didn't retreat from grades and things like that. And I hear your point, like having some routine and practices. And it was very cool, like rocket ship. Every morning at 8am they started with this really inspiring video of Good morning Rocketeers and things like that that I can imagine really would galvanize people. And so there's comfort in that. But at the same token, we talked about a lot about reinventing grading and moving toward a system that doesn't sort students, but actually rewards them for mastering and can allow them to learn, continue to learn whenever they do, and actually rewards them for being specific about the learning that they're actually doing. It doesn't meld social, emotional and habits of success concepts with academic ones, for example. And it sort of felt like a missed opportunity to innovate more in that.

I think that's right. And I do think that one of the opportunities that we discovered in the spring was we were able to personalize in ways that we had not pushed ourselves to personalize in the building and quite frankly couldn't in some ways. So, you know, there's a lot of legal compliance requirements when you're in person, around the number of minutes a student has to be in the building, in a classroom, the number of kids in a class, like all sorts of constraints on that, that when we moved into the virtual world, we could let go of to a certain extent and then personalize. And so we took advantage of that opportunity. I think you're craving here, and did create personalized learning pathways for kids that had them opt in to different learning experiences, which sometimes meant they weren't necessarily going to the traditional class at the traditional hour because they were doing something that matched their personal needs and where they were, you know, whether it be a small study group or asynchronous in the evening because of their family, whatever it was. There was a, you know, every student's individual. And so being able to give personal pathways that they could really make work for them was super powerful in the spring. And you know, I think the evidence of that, Michael, is this fall as schools started back up, we're seeing our kids are demanding those types of choices again. And you know, we, we purposefully started the beginning of the year much more holistically as a community and in classes and then intend to move to personalization. But the kids are like, no, we want that now. That really worked for us in the spring. I think as evidence that that's the direction education needs to move.

Yeah, I think as we wrap this up, I think that's what I was thinking about a lot in my head was you had those different tracks for learners depending on accelerate and things like that. And this flexibility you just talked about with synchronous and asynchronous, knowing that your teachers were there for them. Right. That you had their back and that you had some regular check ins and stuff like that. And I guess I was feeling that tension that I can imagine for certain families, gosh, you better give me that structure and it better be synchronous from these hours because like, I need that as a working parent. My kid needs that for whatever reason. I get that. I think that's an important option and it feels like an option, not the only way to do this. I think.

I think that's right. And you know, I think what's so interesting about this role report, you know, and you and I both have sort of avoided the controversy around this is it, it's all about charters. And once again sort of reinforces, you know, pitting charters against traditional schools and arguing that charters are better than traditional. And you know, you know, I sort of live in the intersection of these two worlds and don't find that super productive. You know, I think one of the things that this report highlights is like, like one of the benefits of charters is they are operationally generally highly efficient and effective. And I think you saw that really play out in the spring here. And you know, there's a variety of reasons for that, but I do think that's one of the things that the big question I have of, you know, all my amazing charter peers and this is not to say these folks aren't doing this, is like, are we really using our freedoms and our obligation as charters to push the envelope on the learning and the experience and be innovative? Because that is our charge as charters. That's why we were originally invented. And operational efficiency is not enough. And I think that's where we really need to be pushing ourselves.

That makes a lot of sense. So let's use that actually as a segue to your topic, because pushing the envelopes is something I think this rise of pods and micro schools has the potential to do. But tell me what's on your mind.

Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, Michael, there's 100 articles out there right now, but I love the headline of this one because to me, it just captures what we're dealing with here. The headline is Love them or hate them. Pandemic Learning pods are here to stay and could disrupt American education. And for me, that just sums up where we are in this conversation, Michael. I mean, literally, this came out of nowhere overnight. It's like less than two months ago at this point. And for those who don't know and have kind of missed this flurry, a learning pod is kind of loosely defined as a small group of students organized to learn or go to school outside of the traditional school. They can be led by a teacher or a tutor or a parent. You know, someone is leading it, and generally that person's compensated by the group of parents. Although we're seeing some variations on this last piece. And, you know, over the summer, this idea basically became viral overnight as parents were really seeking to take control of their children's care and education. And we keep reminding people that school's really doing these dual purposes, and we need to think about them both. And, you know, these came on the heels of this really difficult spring where a majority of the students were suddenly sent home, and the experience was not good for most of them. And as schools across the country continue to struggle to operate and open or not open or, you know, satisfy, they're just not satisfying what most families want or need. And so it's not surprising that people very rapidly developed very strong opinions about these pods. And as the article suggests, they either love them or hate them. And my question is about the second part of that, which is the headline. Is that hyperbolic, or could pods actually disrupt education as we know it? And you've researched, written, and thought extensively about disruption. And so I'm so curious about your take.

So let me back up, I guess, on it and say just directly on that last piece, which is. I've long thought that micro schools were sort of the wild card of disruption in schooling in America. And by that I mean from my perspective, the reason my first book was disrupting class, not disrupting schools. And I think to some degree we call this podcast class disrupted, not school disrupted. Is that from my perspective, because everyone has had an opportunity to attend what feels like a free public education and it's accessible to all, there's just not opportunity for disruption of schools in America now. There's plenty of opportunity internationally. Like 250 million kids worldwide do not have access to schools. Just pause and think about that. A quarter billion kids, right?

Yeah. And this is a big thing I had to learn. Disruption happens in the absence of something. And so because schools are available to everyone, we're not going to actually see traditional disruption is what you're saying.

That's exactly right. And thanks for amplifying that. And so whereas you can really imagine reinvention, right, in other parts of the world because there's an absence of schooling and people are clamoring to learn and have these community opportunities. So in America, historically my view has been like, it's not going to happen, that we have to reinvent from within the school. The wild card in my mind is there's one other time where disruption can happen, which is where counterintuitively, people are overserved by the offering. And you might say, well, who is overserved by education in America? Like, we constantly read about how schools are not doing good enough job and we have to better prepare students and so forth. I would argue for actually wealthy Americans and people from certain household structures, it overserves them in that the traditional American school offers tons of courses, tons of extracurricular activities, and all these things that like, I actually don't want to take advantage of. I want my kid to have these three world class experiences and you know, dance, not debate, you know, these academic tracks in stem, not steam. Maybe I'm making this up a little bit and all of that excess is not helping my child or my family. And so actually opting out for a micro school experience that's super tailored, super personalized at the edges, I could imagine could increase what has felt like homeschooling, which is to say opting out of the education system. But it felt like, to be totally frank, a really wild, wild, wild card. And then all of a sudden there's a pandemic, right? And all of a sudden non consumption of schooling is a real thing and school is literally not in session and people need childcare options and families like mine are sitting there looking at school and saying, I don't want be in a social experience where they're constantly masked and being told, get away from that child and don't have that opportunity and sort of lead this fear based education. And frankly, we don't want to be at the women mercy of a school that is changing plans every couple months and so forth. And all of a sudden tons of families like mine are saying we need to do something different. And in my mind I still think it's more likely than not people run back to the normal the moment we can. But the longer this pandemic stretches on, Diane, the longer non consumption window is open, if you will, and the longer we're going to see entrepreneurs and parents and teachers. And I think people discount how much teachers are going to innovate in this. Teachers are going to innovate a ton to create new structures that create better childcare than the traditional school, that create more personalized schooling options that reach learners where they are, that create better, more tight knit communities where students can really thrive and succeed and take advantage of technology and projects to allow them to have a world class education even if they're not attending a school with 4,000 students and tons of budget, if that makes sense. And so the longer this stretches on, I think the more it happens. And I'll end with this because now I want you to react and then I have a few other thoughts. But your colleague Mira Brown, I recently moderated a panel with you and she on it and she made the point that she thought unlikely that the micro schools disrupt for the, you know, the dynamic that people will run back, but what will remain from them? Is this question that's motivated you and I to start the podcast, which is to say parents for the first time are getting a sneak peek at their education and they're realizing that they're actually consumers with a voice and that they can shape this, whether that's in their micro school or in their traditional school. Like they actually want a seat at the table. And the stat that just keeps blowing me away is that 40% of families in this country have changed enrollment of their school in the fall from the previous year. 40% either unenrolled or changed the school that their kid was going to. And that's consumer choice on a scale that I can't remember seeing in education.

It is, and it's actually, it gives me goosebumps. I know that sounds terrible, but I'm so excited about family, feeling empowered to drive the change and to ensure that schools reflect who they are, what they care about and what matters. And that's what you and I've been saying for a long time. I Want to just add to that? It's hard to get your arms wrapped around good data and stats these days. But if I'm reading the data right, I just want to bring in this voice of families of color are more likely to say, I don't want my child back in school right now. And I raise this because it's interesting. The flip side is we're seeing the more white affluent areas where parents are, like, demanding that their schools open. And, you know, in addition, there's a group maybe being overserved, but there's a group who've historically not only been underserved but ill served and missserved by schools. And, you know, in this moment, they're like, I'm not risking my child's life. I'm not risking my family's life, and we have greater risk than the rest of you. No, I'm not putting my child back in that building. And, you know, right now it's because of the pandemic. But that is just true when you look at the suspension and expulsion data and the discipline data and so many things that have not been going well or right for kids of color in our system. And so, yeah, I just want to bring that voice.

No, I think it's a right. I'm glad you brought that dual lens in, Diane, because from my perspective, this is what I find so exciting but also frustrating about this pods moment, which is to say, you know, families like mine just call it what it is, right? Are most likely to say, open schools. Again, we need to be in. And we're also the families most likely to be creating these pods leading to this big equity question, right, of who is setting these up. And I think it's a tremendous opportunity to take advantage of these to create truly social learning experiences that drive big questions, that meet kids in their interests, that personalize learning and really allows them to flourish in exciting ways. And I'm so frustrated that districts are not as opposed to just yelling, no, don't join a pod. And to be fair, some districts are doing what I'm about to say. But I wish more were that they were saying, okay, it's happening. Love them or hate them, as you said, it's happening. How do we take advantage of it so that we can make sure these offerings are allowing all of our students in our charge to flourish? That seems to me the big opportunity is for schools to say, okay, we've never been able to figure out how to deal with all these different needs inside of large buildings and large bureaucracies. All of a Sudden we're getting fractured down to units of 5 to 15 students. How do we use this as an opportunity to really create world class educational opportunities for every single one of our learners in our charge? And I just wish that institutions were doing more than they are right now. I mean, I think where you see the real energy in low income communities is from the YMCA programs, from the after school programs, from program, you know, platforms like Wonder School that help create these experiences. And I'm gratified to see that. I just wish more traditional schools were riding the wave.

Yeah, you know, what you're talking about reminds me of the conversation we had with Todd Rose and you've written about this recently. This, this idea that right now the system is set up to be zero sum, like there's going to be winners and there's going to be of lots losers. And this whole POD thing seems to just play right into that. And the assumption that some people are going to win and some people are going to lose and, you know, it just fails to embrace the opportunity we have for a new definition of success, which is like it's not about this one single measure and we're all competing for limited spots. It's literally about developing each and every child and human in the way we'd want our own child developed. If you just think about it like that, it changes everything.

I think that's right. And you know, just a final thought on this, Diane, which is we wrestled a lot with it internally around who do we include in the pod? How do we make it more equitable by leaving, you know, not that we were necessarily enrolling in the district before, but by leaving the district as well, are we sucking resources out? And, and we've sort of struck this middle ground where we're including one family that wouldn't have the means to be able to afford this otherwise. And I think that's important. But I'll tell you the flip side, and maybe this is us justifying it because it's really complex. But we've also said because of who our family is, we're not actually going to cause our district to lose resources in the next year. And we just hope that they reallocate those resources that would have been used to reach our children to those who really, really need it and are going to really, really struggle and maybe have an obligation to de densify those schools and allow them to allocate their resources more justly right now.

Interesting. And now you've steered us into School of Finance, which I think we'll avoid for this week. Well, Michael, with being a school founder now, I'm not sure you'll have time, but I'm just curious, what are you reading, watching, thinking about doing?

Yeah. Final takeaway from us for the week. Right. So right now I'm glad you asked. I'm actually reading two books that I'm not allowed. I'm not sure I'm allowed to say, like, who wrote them because they haven't come out yet. But one I'm going to potentially review for Education next. And it's a book about how sort of failure to disrupt and how technology alone doesn't lead us to disrupt. And it takes a few swipes at me and Clay Christensen actually in the course of writing it. But I think it's a pretty interesting book. And so I'm sort of working my way through that one. And then the second book that I'm working on is a very timely one about principles of the science of learning for building better online experiences in particular. And I have to say it's like a distillation of the research into five principles that I think is pretty interesting and I'm hoping help a lot of educators right now who create these experiences. What about you? What's on your radar at the moment?

I'll be interested to check those out when we can access them. I'm going to go back in time a little. So my book club has decided to watch America. To me, yes, I realize that's ironic. It's a book club watching. This is a 2018 documentary series and you know, it looks at the life and school in Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. I started watching it a couple of years ago and then lost the thread. But it's a perfect time to return to it. This series takes a really hard look at racial, economic, class issues and a quintessential American high school. And the issues are so real and important and clearly urgent. I'm excited to get back to it.

Well, that's good. So you're drawing on the past to pull lessons into our present time. I'm reading into I don't know if it's the future, but books to come out in the future for the same reason. And for all of you listening, thanks so much for joining. We'll keep digging into these important issues and we'll see you next time on Class Disruptive. It.