Season 2, Episode 5: The reopening question

Hey, Michael.

Hey, Diane. Happy birthday. I understand this is a big one.

Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. It is a birthday, and in my family, you know, we don't do a ton of, like, present giving. We. We actually use birthdays to really reflect, which feels really important at this moment in time and in this time of COVID And so I really appreciate you and this opportunity for this conversation today.

Yeah, I think this conversation is, is. Is so important right now for so many educators and parents around right now. And obviously, as we talked about this episode beforehand and what was on our mind, the same topic came up. This, we'll call it the reopening question, for lack of a better phrase. But you know, educators, communities, parents are all grappling with this decision right now and trying to figure out how do. Do we open schools right now. And obviously you're a big part of this right now, Diane, on the front lines with Summit.

Yeah. And Michael, this is why we started the class disrupted podcast, really, because we wanted to keep our fingers on the pulse and try to make sense of what is happening in K12 education, given first the COVID pandemic, but then also the ensuing racial reckoning and the economic fallout from that. And so this is at the heart of why we're doing this and having these conversations. And I'll be honest with you, Michael, I've been an educator for over 25 years, and I guess that gives people a clue of maybe what big birthday we're talking about today. This decision to reopen school buildings is honestly the most complex I've ever faced in those 25 years. Part of today is going to be real time processing for me because like you said, I'm right in. In the middle of it. And so let me turn to you to sort of get us set up at the macro level of what it is we're actually talking about here.

Yeah, absolutely. I'll try to set the stage, if you will, and I'm going to try to be a little bit more reporter. Like this will be a different sort of episode for those of folks who are tuning in and listening. I'll try to summarize this as I'm seeing the news, if you will, not my opinion. And then Diane, I'll ask you a bunch of questions so you can process, but also help us think this through. So I think the, you know, the big headline in recent weeks has been that schools don't see seem to be these super spreaders, if you will, in communities. They aren't these places where COVID 19 has just emerged and run through the student body or even the faculty and staff in most cases. And simultaneously. The second thing I'd say that's true is that there's a lot of political pressure in certain quarters to reopen schools. And I would add at all costs. It just seems to be a mantra, almost like repeating, no matter what the circumstances, this is what we want to see. And then third, unsurprisingly, there's a lot of counter pressure to not reopen, right. As numbers soar in certain communities or go above certain percentage positive tests thresholds. Just happened in Boston pretty near me, you know, there's been counter pressure not to rush to reopen. And many leaders have pushed not only to cancel or prevent rather government run schools from opening, but also attempted to keep private schools closed in some cases. And teacher unions in many cases across the country have played a role in trying to keep these schools from opening physically as well. Now there are a few parts of this, right, for the, for the unions, safety, for their members, building safety. We know that a lot of school buildings in this country have not been kept up. Their ventilation issues, which is significant issue. And then simultaneously, as we've discussed like that actually increases the pressure in favor of school choice right now because parents want options. So the fourth thing I think that you're seeing is a subcurrent in this, if you will. And it goes back to that point that COVID 19 is impacting the most vulnerable communities the most. The racial reckoning conversation we've had spotlights the fact that there's a lot of pressure right now to reopen so that the nation's most vulnerable children have better support around them. Right. Virtual schooling is really difficult in a lot of their circumstances. And you and I have discussed about some districts making more targeted efforts, right? We're only going to open schools for younger children or for students with disabilities, for example. And you know, we know that inequities have been laid bare in this pandemic. And this is a response in many ways to that. The fifth thing I would say is what's really interesting, even as we're seeing some of those targeted responses and conversations, is that in many quarters, those same families with, you know, the most vulnerable children, in many cases, they don't report in many cases that they want school in person. I think that reflects a lack of trust in their schools to keep them safe, given what they've endured through all this. But it is what it is. And then the sixth thing I guess is, so what do you Do. Right. There's a lot to balance with strong opinions, both at the individual level of parents and students, many of whom are desperate to be with their friends and others of whom are scared to be with their friends. And at the macro level, you know, so that's like in the community, right? Teachers, community members, parents, students. And then at the macro level of regions, states, and the country writ large. So it's complicated. It's really hard to generalize. And I'd love, you know, you're thinking about this as the school leader. First, break it down for us how you're segmenting this world and defining the different decisions, because I think that'll help people start from a same fact pattern.

Yeah. Such an important place to start. And what is missing. And so much of what I'm reading and seeing is just a basic understanding of what we're talking about here. So a couple key points on this front, Michael. First, we really have to distinguish between elementary school kids and middle and high school kids. Most people talk about K12 writ large. Lots of systems include elementary all the way through high school. So the school system's thinking about all. But those are two very different models of education, number one and two, age groups of kids who are impacted. And the key there is, if you remember, most elementary classes are single classrooms with one teacher and a group of kids. And they don't have nearly as much movement that you're going to see upper and middle and high school kids having where they're going from class to class and teacher to teacher and significant mixing. Turns out that's a big deal with the virus, right?

It's a big deal for this, yes.

Second, let's just define a few things here. So we're talking about the opening of buildings in the spring. It was definitely true that schools literally weren't doing any educating of kids, period, and their buildings were closed because they didn't have it together for the most part in America, when the fall launched, even if a building didn't open, there is some sort of planned education that's happening, kids in a distant or virtual way. And so this conversation is really about the opening of the building, I think. And I can see three sort of main types of ways buildings get opened. So the first is that, like everyone goes back to the building, everyone's in person. And you see some of these schools across the country, they're just sort of doing what they were doing before with some modifications for health reasons. The second is hybrid. And you hear a ton about this, Michael, and it's taking A couple different forms. But in general what this means is that some of the times some group of kids are in the building learning in a classroom setting and at the same time there's kids learning at home from a distance perspective. And that's going to be really critical in the decision matrix. And then finally, far fewer people talking about this. But this is something that my organization has really been thinking about and committed to from the beginning. As we looked across things is what we're calling a reopening of the building. More like think of like them as workstations. And so where the learning is still virtual, but some number of kids come back to the building and essentially have a workstation there. And this is a big deal when you're talking, you know, middle and high school kids and kind of what the experience is like in the building. So I do think we need to make help people see what the experience is actually like in the building. A couple other quick things you touched on this. But like education is very local, but it is deeply one size fits all. It's deeply impacted by a matrix of responsibility and accountability that starts at the federal level, goes to the state level, at the county level, and then at the local district level. And in this case we're dealing not only with education requirements, but now health requirements as well. So you've got this overlapping matrix of accountability in a school. And then finally, I just want to list off all the stakeholders, you alluded to them here, but we are dealing with students, parents, teachers, administrators, and then all the other people in a school system. Bus drivers, lunch servers, janitors, coaches, instructional aides, nurses, psychologists, counselors. I mean the list goes on and, and the employers of this country who it turns out their employees depend on schools for child care, lots of politicians, more than we probably need or want here. And the media that plays a big role in this and is very opinionated. And then finally, like you said, the public sort of writ large, who's very opinionated as well. And so there you have it, Michael.

Complicated, complicated web. So you all have been staring down this and just to say quickly on the workstation piece where it sounds like you're arriving and I want to hear more about what that looks like. That's something that can work really well in a model like yours where you've rethought a lot of the interactions before COVID happened.

Right.

In some schools where it's still very whole class instruction based, same pace, I'm guessing that would be a lot more of a struggle. So maybe let's Start there. How much is your model an advantage in thinking?

It's a huge advantage. And as you know, it was a huge advantage to us. In the spring, we were able to close the building and within a day have, you know, learning full learning up in the virtual world because it's supported by a technology platform and tools that everyone was already using and familiar with. And so it is definitely a big advantage and not accessible to a lot of school systems. I think they're just not set up for it and unfortunately didn't spend the spring and the summer getting themselves set up for it either.

Yeah, and that's a big piece. I think the other piece that I'm hearing a lot, just to add fuel to that. And then I have a question on top of that, which is schools that developed agency in learners beforehand had a lot more options of what schooling could look like relative to those where they were more used to, for lack of a better phrase, stand and deliver education. And so unless you're committing to building that agency and that ownership and students over their own learning now, you're still going to be sort of stuck with fewer sets of options. Is my impression, as we work through this, completely true?

And I do want to say very clearly up front that the schools in the Summit organization are not serving younger children. So we start in sixth grade and go through 12. So that, again, that's a different question that we're grappling with. And I'll try to make sure I'm being clear about that as we're walking through the conversation.

Yeah, cool. So. So let's dive in then, because with so many stakeholder groups, so much variation, you know, your schools are different regions. Right. You're not all concentrated just in Silicon Valley by any means. You're across state lines. How did you just start to organize the set of conversations to be had?

Yeah, well, we started where you and I often start and. And a place that, you know, is at the heart of the. The, you know, our model and our belief in education, which is it with really looking at our students as individuals and thinking about personalization. So one thing that is so, so clear is that every single student and every family has a different set of circumstances, a different set of concerns, a different set of needs and worries. And so one other thing that gets lost in the big conversation right now is that individualization and the personalization that is needed. And so that's really where we start. And we start by trying to be in conversation and communication with every single one of our families and students and Understanding where they are, what they need, what they want. And so that means we are regularly gathering full sets of data from them through surveys. And then we're also leveraging the personal relationships and connections that are at the heart of our schools to gather their input and their voice and their feedback that way. We're also doing focus groups. And so we are constantly trying to understand all the individual needs and circumstances. And when you start to do that, Michael, you get a much more nuanced picture of what's happening and you let people speak for themselves instead of having other people speak for them. Which is honestly one of my biggest concerns about the dialogue right now is there's all these people, the media, really guilty of this, speaking on behalf of, of kids and parents and actually not hitting the mark, in my opinion.

So that's helpful. And as you do that, I'm sure you're getting a lot of, you're reflecting a lot of different interests, a lot of different priorities, individuals, different families willing to make different trade offs. One of the things that I found useful as you start to look around at options is to figure out what are your priorities, what are you going to, you can't have it all in life. So what are you willing to trade off on? How have you thought about as you, you gather all this information about what individual families are doing in real time and their priorities, like what is your central purpose and why and objectives as you sort of aggregate that up?

Yeah, the thing that we've really tried to focus on from the start is recognizing that oftentimes when a school or a district makes a decision, that decision has variable impacts on different people. And so we try not to make a decision on behalf of one group that will have a negative impact on the other group. So this goes back to a lot to the conversations we have about sadly, our system is highly competitive and it really ends up stack ranking kids and pitting groups against each other. One of the things we're always asking ourselves is how do we not do that? How do we personalize and meet the needs of each student and how do we, we not make a choice in a decision that has this perhaps unintended consequence, but nonetheless for someone else. And let me give you an example and make that really real. So in the spring, for example, when school districts came out and decided their grading scales and some of them were like, everyone's getting an A. And some people were like everyone's getting a pat. And we've talked about this, when they made those decisions, they actually did harm to A set of kids while they were trying to be fair and help another group of kids. And that ends up pitting kids against kids and families against families. And so we really try to think about it as, like, how can we personalize and give options and pathways for families that don't actually harm their peers and the other people in their community? And so it's much more about the different pathways and different. Different options. And so, for example, in our case, we told our families from the very beginning of the year, after talking to them and realizing that half of our families said, we are not sending our child back to a school building this year, full stop. We don't feel comfortable. And that was half. And we know people can change their mind, but when we saw that, we made a commitment and said, we will offer virtual school for your family for the entire year, no matter what. Like, that will always be a choice for you. And then we'll think about the other options as well as we can and not have those detract from each other. And so I think that's one example in our case of a stake we

put in the ground that's super helpful. And that was probably something you could arrive at early. The other piece that California mandated in many cases that it start virtual, I think that impacted probably all of your schools at the outset. So take us through the timeline, sort of as you started to say, okay, we're getting some more flexibility. We're starting to be able to look at other options. How did you start. How did your team start to create what those options or brainstorm what those options even would be? And where were the flashpoints where people were like, no chance am I gonna be in a building doing X. Or, you know, help us sort of be in the moment as we have these conversations.

Yeah, well, we start where we always start is we always go back to the purpose and objectives. So what are we doing and why are we doing it? And so there's three, really. It's interesting. Our team started talking about, well, oh, my gosh, in this crazy year, like, what does success even look like in this year? Because most of the ways we measure ourselves are gone. All of kind of the traditional systems aren't happening. So what is success gonna look like? And where we landed on that, Michael, is kind of three key points. One, and they're all around people. So to us, this year is all about people. And we think success looks like this. One, do we retain everyone in our community over the course of this year? And as you've noted, like, there's massive transitions from people in and out and whatever.

So we feel like 40% turnover across the country of kids in new schools.

Exactly. And so can we retain our students, our families, our teachers? And we really feel like that will be a big marker of success in our ability to personalize because if we're able to, to meet every family's needs so they stay with us through this crazy year, we think that's going to be an important marker. Two, we want to make sure we're not closing any future doors for any of our students. And you know, this is always a big core value of ours. We want, we seek to leave as many doors open for the future as possible for kids so that they have choice and opportunity as they move forward. And we don't want the pandemic to close closed doors for kids. And then finally, you know, that's just kind of holding steady. We also want every child to have at least an opportunity this year. So where is kind of the, the silver lining or the opportunity that comes in this crazy moment? And so that's kind of how we're defining success for the year. And you know, that leads us to a conversation around like, well, what would have to be true for every child in order for those three things. Things to happen. And as we have already said, we realize it's going to be different for different kids. So we're going to need personalized options. And, and so then we start to actually break down all of these like matrix of rules and requirements and whatnot and get them organized and systematized. Because I will be honest with you, Michael, they're totally overwhelming. They're changing constantly and they are conflicting very often. And so we are, I mean we have like spreadsheets and graphs and all sorts of, you know, monitoring. We're doing a whole team doing that. And then we try to really simplify it for the people who are trying to make these, these important decisions.

How much difference do you see between your schools? Like are some going one approach and others going a different. And your comfort level with that or how does that work?

Yeah, so what my school leaders and we have decided to do is to make a, we are standing together and making a consensus based decision around the buildings opening or not. And that could mean that some buildings will open at a different time depending on where they are. But there's a couple of reasons that we're doing that. One, we really want to make sure that we're making decisions that are inclusive of as many viewpoints as possible. And we have A really diverse population of school leaders and their perspectives. We know the best decisions are made by really diverse viewpoints and perspectives and experiences. So we want to do that together. And two, would we want work together and collaborate? We have better resources for our families. We have more opportunities. We can support them more than a single school can. And so we really seek to collaborate with each other because we think that that opens more opportunities, more doors, more support. And so, you know, we're doing it together. And then finally our teachers are one, you know, teaching force, if you will. And you touched on this. But the teachers are a significant factor in this decision process. And so acting like the different schools are different is not realistic when you're thinking about this decision.

So I have two other questions as we sort of wrap up this part of it, which is one, as you think about all the customization you could do for families and as you get down, I mean, identifying these core principles is serving each individual. It does sound like it could get expensive really fast to provide the whole set of options. How are you grappling with that? Or if that's a difficult question to answer, how would you recommend someone else staring this down? Think about, you know, those trade offs right of our budget is X. We can't serve infinite number of options. Like how do you deal with those?

It's incredibly impactful in the decisions that we're making. Michael. I mean, here's what's interesting about this. In both of the states that we operate schools, at least right at this moment, it appears that we'll essentially receive the same financial. We'll get the same financing to run our schools that we expected for the year and a little bit of boost on top of that from the first stimulus money that was approved. We're thinking about that money as it's designated to really address the opening of buildings and all of the requirements that come with that. I mean, preparing for, you know, people in Covid is very expensive. I'll just give you one example we really were seriously looking into can we afford to test our students on a regular interval and basis. And you know, some of the more well financed schools and private schools and colleges are doing this, particularly higher ed. Exactly. The least expensive option we had was $125 per student per test, which is just not. It's not viable. It's not. And so, and then that, that doesn't even take into account can you even get all of the stuff that you're having to pay for? Because, you know, all of the accessing those resources is really challenging in this time. There's a run on them, they're back ordered. You know, there's all of that stuff. And then you face, you risk did should we have stockpiled before, but we don't even know what we're going to need. I mean there's so many operational questions on that front that, you know, the same thing we saw playing out of the, the state level is now playing out at schools and districts levels and it's really challenging.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, so I, I guess just update our listeners. Where are you all now? What, what are the plans and, and what's the big piece of advice you'd give other school leaders who are tuning in as they grapple with this right now?

Yeah, well, so where we are is our, we have, we, we, we have not opened one of our, our school buildings yet. We just recently have moved into the sort of state and county designations where we could even apply for a waiver to open our schools as middle and high schools. We will have to have a full plan and apply for a waiver. So we've just recently moved into those designations. We did not rush into that in the way that some people have, primarily because we are operating virtual school. It is, is working well for our students and we are trying to make this really thoughtful decision. And then quite frankly, Michael, what's really influencing us right now is we know that stability and constancy is really important for, for kids and adults, emotional health, their mental health, especially in this time of the pandemic. And so we are really reticent to open buildings and then have to close them. And so we're watching a couple things here. One, a bunch of people having done that, like not being fully prepared and then having to close down because they had outbreaks. And two, we're watching the rising cases across the country right now. We recognize flu season is coming as a complication and quite frankly the holidays are coming. And so, you know, we will be tackling this decision collectively. Like, like literally this morning when I hang up with you, we're going to go into a first decision making meeting around it. But you know, when I look at all those complicating factors and wanting to keep things stable, I imagine, and I will say our operations team believes that we need at least four weeks lead time once we decide to open to get the buildings open. And so when you kind of look at the calendar, I'm thinking the earliest we're probably going to be looking at is, is the new semester in January is probably likely.

Yeah, it's interesting actually hearing you talk about the certainty piece because just this morning there was a piece about Cal State colleges. And they, of course, for those that don't know, they made the very early decision relative to the rest of higher ed that they were going to be all virtual. And that was the final word on it. And people sort of, I think a lot of presidents looked at them and said, you just sacrificed all these students, like they're not going to show up now because they want in person. And you just said you're not going to offer in person. Well, really interesting system wide. The numbers are up in terms of enrollment and it's not uniform like in Northern California. They're more down than up. And so I think you'd be crazy to draw a firm conclusion from it. But what I would say that seems to have resonated is there was certainty for families. Right. And they could say, either this is something I'm excited about or it's not, but I know what it will be and it's not going to change. And that I, I do think in this time where there's so much in flux and so much changing, constantly having something you can cling on to counts for something.

Well, Michael and I would add to that honesty and trustworthiness. So, as you know, I sent my child to college this year as a freshman. So we're surrounded by people who are in that place. And there is a constant conversation among parents right now sending their kids to college and kids too, where they just don't believe the colleges or the universities and they feel like they were lying to us. They said that they were going to open. They waited to the very last minute to tell us it was going to be virtual. They're just charging us full tuition. Like they didn't really give us, you know, and it just erodes trust. And, oh, by the way, in a moment when you have to trust that institution more than anything because you're trusting them with your child's life. And so I just think that, yeah, they're, they're, they're. It's, it's a challenging decision when your decision making isn't sort of honest and transparent and putting, you know, people at the heart of that decision. And there's real skepticism around the economics of it, I think.

Yeah, it's a good point. And as we enter a presidential election, and I'll avoid opining on that, but President Ford, the late President Ford used to say, truth is the glue that holds government, and not just government, but society itself together There's a lot of wisdom in what you just said there. So, Diane, take us. We'll leave this conversation. It's not the last. I suspect we're going to tackle it. But, you know, as you've been reflecting, what have you been reading or watching? What's on your radar?

Well, Michael, I just want to speak to. This past week, I've spent a lot of time with our school leaders and prompted by a really phenomenal board member who looked at me a few weeks ago and said, you know, the election, I think a lot of people believe the election is going to bring at least some relief because it will be over and there will be certainty. And the truth is, Michael, that's probably unlikely. It's a. There's a very good chance we won't actually know who's, who's won or declared for quite a while, at least some period of time and again. And going back to social. Emotional, mental health. Emotional health, that people are seeking relief and when they don't get it, that's gonna be challenging, especially in this moment in time. And so I say all of that because we spent the last week as leaders really preparing to lead through that uncertainty and preparing to lead through that uncertainty. When we lead communities who, who are really divided on this and, you know, it's very easy to think that everyone thinks like you. It's very different when you are the leader of a school community and your families and your students have very different viewpoints. And how do you keep that community together? And how does everyone who has a leadership role in our country hold us together when our political institutions, institutions are going to be going through a lot

of turmoil, stress, uncertainty. Yeah.

Yeah. How about you?

I feel like we should have wrapped up before we got to me, but right now, so I'm reading a book recently came out by my colleague and friend Bob Mesta called Demand Side Sales 101. And I'll say it in this way, it's a, like, it's remarkable how little people think about sales. And I don't just mean like, of goods and things like that, but also ideas and stuff like that. It's not actually thought of as an academic department in business schools across the country. It's been relegated. And so he basically took his methodology of jobs to be done and asking the question, what's the progress that the individual consumer or the user is trying to make and how do you fit into that as opposed to thinking from the organization side that you're trying to push something on someone? And so it's a whole look basically of flipping sales, of asking the question, how do I make, how do I help this person make progress? And knowing where that person is, frankly, in their own decision making process and saying like, we're not the right fit right now. And from my perspective, it's like it's been very helpful and I've learned a ton as I'm about 2/3 or so of the way through it.

Well, and really relevant and interesting as always. You're going to provoke me to think about that as I go through. Are they?

I was thinking about it as you were talking about your individual families. Right. Who are having all these different definitions and notions of what progress looks like in their circumstance. And you can't push one thing on them because they're not going to buy like they have to make progress in their lives. And that, that's what I was thinking through when you were, when you were talking.

Fascinating as always. So good to talk with you. And that's probably the place to leave it. We thank you all for joining us on Class Disrupted and we'll look forward to seeing you next time.