Season 2, Episode 7: Turn on your video cameras!

Hey, Michael.

Hey, Diane. How you doing?

Well, happy Thanksgiving week. I am, I'm grateful to be here with you this morning.

Yes, Happy Thanksgiving, indeed. And I am thankful that it was Thanksgiving week because it means that I don't have a lot of meetings this week. And when we heard thunder all of a sudden outside this morning while my kids with their five other friends were being homeschooled, we were able to stop everything, run down, bring them inside and make sure everything was safe. And let's just say it changed our plans just a little bit.

Oh, Michael, it sounds like you're, you're learning and practicing two important skills that we're all learning during the pandemic. Flexibility and adaptability.

Indeed. Indeed. It's quite a time.

Yes, it is. Well, Michael, like I said, I'm grateful to be here with you this morning. When we started class disrupted, we were really trying to keep our fingers on the pulse of what's happening in K12 education. We were assuming that given the pandemic, things were going to get a little bit different and crazy. And it seems that has fanned out as you're illustrating you are not alone as parents across the country are dealing with a barrage of emotion as the ground. And in your case, the skies are constantly shifting, often in disruptive and challenging ways. But. But you and I both hope that things can also shift in positive ways and directions that they should have been shifting for a long time. Which is why we're doing this.

Exactly. Trying to move this from a threat that people see to really what's the opportunity. And along those lines, an article that I've been really wanting to talk to you about recently appeared in Education Week. And it's on a topic that's been sort of simmering in my mind, I have to say. And it's talking about this long time debate between moving away from our current seat time based system toward mastery based learning and whether this is the time maybe for that to finally happen. What's on your mind, Diane?

Well, Michael, as usual, I think we're in the same realm with each other. I'm so glad you're raising this. It dovetails with an adjacent issue this week, which is about educators requiring kids to keep their video cameras on during synchronous online learning and whether we're thinking about this correctly.

That sounds perfect. So let me dive into mine and then we'll, I think, segue very seamlessly to yours, I'm guessing. So. So this Education Week article that I read sort of teed in on what, you know, there's been a long running debate in education circles, should we have a seat time based system in which we require students to be in school for a certain number of minutes and we fund schools based on those minutes or days that they attend? And then more deeply, I think students move from concept to concept based, in effect on the school calendar, not based on their mastery or understanding of anything. And mastery based or competency based learning really flips that on its head, right? As you learn materials, you still get testing and assessment, but that is now designed to help you figure out what else do I need to work on to really reflect on your performance and then you can move on if you demonstrate mastery and frankly, you can keep circling back to things to really solidify it and so forth. But we're now in a situation, right, where students are literally, they're not in seats, they're not going to school full time for the most part. And so we've seen many states say, in essence, okay, we'll, we'll waive the requirements temporarily that students attend for say, 180 days in the year or 900 hours of instruction time per year. But not all states have made these waivers by any means. And the article asks whether this is the time to move past that system more permanently. Now, our friend Susan Patrick, who leads the Aurora Institute in the article, posits that this could be the moment, but that the policy changes so far are just too focused on the current moment and sort of relief. Right. Rather than being something more substantial or broad sweeping. But what I, what really caught my eye, Diane, and I'm, I'm really curious your perspective is there were a lot of quotes about the struggles on the ground adapting to competency based learning at the moment. It quotes one educator who was actually doing competency based learning before this all hit and talking about the struggles with having one on one conversations that she was used to having in person and you know, just the struggles doing that virtually. And then there was this other article, course corresponding one about the challenges of moving to deeper learning in these times, you know, tackling topics with deep projects and the like, basically just saying it's really hard to collaborate in these times when you're isolated and so forth. And so I, I have to confess when I was reading these, I both kind of got the points that they were making, but I also kind of didn't get it at all. At the same time, it seems to me that, you know, it would actually be really hard to just march through content without any understanding in these times. And Just sort of lecturing at kids, moving to a focus on mastery and deeper learning would actually be far easier. But you're an educator, you're far closer to the ground. What gives?

Yeah, Michael, your thoughts are bringing up several things for me. But let's start with that sort of on the ground view. And maybe I can help sort of shed some light on why this is really hard right now, just by narrating a bit of what's happening, at least for some teachers. I don't know, I daresay, maybe most teachers. Let's start with one of my favorite quotes, which is I won't get it. Exactly. But this idea that every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. And I think that's what we're seeing here. Michael, we have a very complex and deeply rooted system in education that places more emphasis and thus value on the amount of time you do something versus what you actually do. And let me just name a few things here. We've got the fact that education is compulsory, which makes going to school mandatory. And literally if you don't, there can be criminal punishments for the parents if students don't go. We've got most of our funding tied to enrollment and attendance, not learning or progress. And like you said, even though people are making some tweaks right now, everyone knows it's going back in the other direction. And there's a constant sort of dialogue and threat about that. I would say we've got age based grade levels and standards that say you should learn all of this in this year with little or no flexibility or ingenuity about what if you don't. And instead we've got these blunt instruments of full retention in a grade, holding kids back or summer school or remediation. And as you and I both know, these are not effective approaches. They've been proven to not be effective. And then we've got our A to F grading system that isn't calibrated. No one really trusts it because it's so localized. And so then we've got the high stakes testing and accountability system. And you know, so when I take a breath and I look at all of that, there is not only no reward, there's literally no space for focusing on kids and learning if you're a teacher. The visual I have in my head is we put the kids on the conveyor belt and all these adults are like trying to glue, hammer, nail, throw things at them as they like whiz down this assembly line and hope that something sticks. And so what's happening for teachers, Michael, is they've never been trained, encouraged or supported to do things differently. Those who have are often punished or frustrated by the system or find themselves having to work outside of it or in spite of it. And finally, I think it's really important to say that there's so much energy going towards just dealing with school as it is in the pandemic. I mean, it's really hard for me to underrepresent the amount of brain space and energy that is going to just keep things functioning and try to understand what's going to happen tomorrow and next week. I really think society's kind of underappreciating what it is to be running these school systems of working in them. All of that said, in one way, the pandemic creates this perfect scenario for mastery based approach. It calls for it and it's not happening for the most part.

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's, it's. And it feels unfortunate. And obviously I'm a big proponent of both mastery and deeper learning. I think content is obviously vital in learning, but in service, right? And knitting the content with the development of these skills and so forth. And it just seems to me allowing a child to work toward mastery is critical so that not only do they get the knowledge and the skills, but frankly they build a sense of I can do it. Right. And it's not these labels that we attach and yes, we avoid the holes in learning and so forth, but it just seems to me like we could take a big pause on the focus on just like progressing through content for its own sake and have a deeper focus on mastery and going deep. And then all these conversations around, you know, when students come back, like how do we test them and figure out what they don't know and what they do know? And that could all take a giant backseat because we'd have embedded mastery in the learning already, you know, did you master it? Is one possibility. Are you still working on it? Have you not even gotten to it yet? And teachers could just record and note those things and then, you know, as we sort of get back to a more stable schooling experience, if you will, we wouldn't have to do all this testing and stuff like that that people are proposing right now to try to figure out like learning loss. As though, by the way, kids have lost learning, they haven't even experienced it. It's a weird label, but I just think if we did that, teachers could step back and say, okay, my job right now is not to deliver content. There are so many resources online that do that. Really well, my job is working deeply with small groups or one on one with students. And how would I allocate my time to do that or even allow students to work with students online and do these projects? I mean, it just seems to me the perfect opportunity to have that conversation. I guess the other question I'm having is, is it possible, given what you just said in traditional schools, given that I did this talk for a district actually last week, and I made the case to them that they might have to set aside, like, small groups of educators, that they basically say, you're not going to work with students for the next few weeks while you redesign these opportunities, and then you work with some students and then start to spread the learning out across the school. Because of what you said, there's just too much focus on just getting back to operations as usual. And it's just so scary. But. But I think you need to create that space. I guess the only other question I have for you is, you know, at Summit, you already do these things, but you make like it works for students because you make it a key focus for them to develop agency and executive functioning skills. So if you haven't done that, is it possible to make that transition with students virtually? And what are you learning from, like, the students who are new to Summit schools this year?

Yeah. Michael, you're. First of all, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. It's super log. And that doesn't always win the day in education. You know, I think it's really hard for schools to do this in the absence of some clarity and direction from systems leaders, political leaders. And so I do think that one thing that I do in my system is give that clarity and give that direction. And, you know, it's not just me, it's the leadership of the organization. But, you know, we do sit in an accountability structure and whatnot. So there's like some balance there. But we do what I think all the systems need to do and the political leaders need to do, which is say to teachers, stop doing this. And by this, it's like trying to cover all this stuff, content.

Right? I mean, couldn't we ask the question, what really is important exactly, and start

doing this and that this is focusing on connection with what's with your students. Like you just said that the. The role of being in small group, one to one, by definition, you're going to be connecting with those kids in those smaller, more intimate engagements and focusing on what students are learning and doing versus what they're losing or missing. I mean, this whole orientation our country has right now where we're all freaking out about learning loss and we're not paying one ounce of attention to all the opportunities kids have to learn right now. They look different, they feel different, but like, there's massive opportunity. And so, you know, what are we doing? We are affirming this every single day in our schools. And we have an entire suite of tools to call on to support mastery learning. And yet, I will tell you, Michael, even for us, it's a mindset shift because we're finding we need to go further than we've ever gone before because we're not in person. We have opportunities to use tools that we have that we've never used in the this way. And so we're having to really push ourselves on it every day and not get sucked into the headlines and the culture that gives you such different messages. It brings me to. It's a lot. And it brings me to the topic I want to pick your brain on, Michael, which I think is related in many ways. I haven't noticed this one hitting the mainstream media yet. Maybe I just missed it, but it's a very hot topic among educators right now. And it has to do with cameras. Yep, cameras.

I was going to say say more. Say more.

Specifically, as a significant number of students across the country continue to be accessing at least some, if not all, of their school via video, real conversations about what it would mean to be present in a virtual classroom have emerged. And so at the heart of this is the camera. And recently I joined a discussion hosted by the SOLD alliance, that's the Science of Learning and Development, in partnership with the National Equity Project. And they're exploring this question of who gets to thrive. The conversation repeatedly turned to how many schools and teachers across the country are thinking about and responding to what is happening when students are logged into their zoom classes but they have their cameras turned off? Michael, what we're seeing is, I think, tied to your topic, which is the response. The general response that's happening is pretty consistent to what we see when schools are in person, which is a compliance based system focused on control. Specifically, we see teachers in schools marking kids absent if their camera isn't on, or even disciplining kids who don't have their cameras on. And the argument they make is that how can a teacher know if a student's engaged or actually there, and if they're participating if they aren't visible? I think this conversation's happening everywhere, Michael, and it's even in my own Organization. And I'll be honest, it really provokes me so much so that I might have to take a breath and hear your thoughts first before I can dive in on this.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'll be candid. When you first said cameras, I thought you were going to go in a privacy direction because I think is a real conversation of parents are now able to see actually what their kids schooling looks like and is that, you know, it's not clear to me that all the teachers are comfortable with that. So that's where I thought you were going. But I'm, I'm delighted to dive into this aspect of it as well. Or delight may be the wrong word. But I do think there, there is a big question when you get into this synchronous video conversation. And I have to be honest, my first reaction is like, does everything need to be on zoom synchronous video? And like I, I do have a sharp reaction around that. But putting that aside, I, the next reaction I have is when you're having a synchronous video conversation. And I want to say conversation, not whole class instruction, but conversation. I think it's reasonable for teachers to say we're going to develop a culture and norms around this. Like I always talk about at Harvard Business Business School, we were not allowed to have computers in the classrooms. Like just barred completely. And you say, well, it's a technology forward place. I mean, so much so that they would actually kill the wireless at least when I, this is a while ago. I don't know if you can still do this, but they would kill the wireless throughout the building during class times so that you were laser focused. Because the whole purpose, right, is having this case study conversation where everyone's engaged. And so on the one hand I'm sympathetic to it, but where I think it gets problematic is when you create blanket policy to say like cameras off, therefore not present or cameras off, therefore discipline. Right. As opposed to being able to ask the like, why? Why is the camera off? And I think that's the problem with compliance base. It forces everyone to just focus on adhering to the rule rather than the spirit of said rule. And it prohibits us from asking why and getting at causality. In my mind, yes.

That's what I'm so missing here. I mean, to your point, at first there's some logic that just kicks in as like, oh yeah, well you would be on your camera if you're having a conversation. But there's this core mindset shift that needs to happen. I think in all of education. And this example is just so on point, which is we have to ask the question of why kids aren't turning their camera on. I mean, kids, despite what people think, they don't just, like, wake up in the morning and say, well, I'm gonna just try to torture everyone around me and disobey and not do what I'm supposed to. I don't want to learn. I don't want to be successful. It's quite the contrary. And so the big question for me, like you said, is why? And, you know, why is our first move as a school or a teacher to control or punish versus is asking that question, especially in a pandemic. Because, like Michael, the first line reasons you're gonna get for a lot of kids are, like, deeply personal, and we should be empathetic about this. There are often times in homes where they don't. They don't want all their classmates to be in their home and seeing what's happening in there, or they're uncomfortable about. It's like, deeply personal. Personal how they actually look. I mean, we learned that one family, you know, for religious reasons in their home, they don't wear their coverings, their. Their head and facial coverings. And they were very worried. I mean, there's so many whys for kids around this, and that's just at the first level. Then I think if you start digging deeper about, like, well, maybe what you're doing actually doesn't resonate with the kids, and they don't understand why being on camera is. Is helpful. And it doesn't, you know, they don't want to be controlled. And they're voting with their, you know, not feet, but their camera now, because

this gets to the. This gets to the folly of doing whole class instruction and lecturing in general, I would argue, but especially on zoom. Right? It's crazy.

It is. It is crazy. And so, like, the key point here that I have is we have an opportunity as educators to change our mindset around not only this issue, but kind of of all of how we structure education. And instead of going to this sort of approach of we're just going to keep doubling down on our systems of control, bodily controlling kids, where they are when they're there with all these accountability and discipline structures, rather than working to improve our systems so that we actually design our schools and learning in a way that kids would flock to it, that they'd choose it, they would engage in it because they value it and they felt valued in return. And, you know, I have so many like beautiful, amazing examples of that that are happening in our school during the pandemic, where kids literally are showing up into zoom rooms early, staying there late, like, you know, because they feel seen and heard and valued and connected and that's what they're seeking in this moment in time. And because they feel like someone cares about them and is learning and teaching. And so I just want us to shift our mindset and I think that's what we both want. I just don't know how to get us there.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. What you said just reminded me when I was living and studying the school systems in Korea and the Hagwon culture there is very deep. Everyone actually does the learning at hagwons and they sleep during the day in schools. And I asked every parent and student that I met, I would. My question at the very end of the conversation was always, if you had the choice of whether to go to your, you know, your, your compulsory school during the day or your hagwon for your learning, what would you choose? And they always said, oh, I would just go to the hagwon and forget the regular school. Like that's where I get the learning done. And you realize this compulsory system was like doing no one any favors. And all of the government's efforts to tap down these other options, where they actually found value was producing the opposite. It was just producing kids that were studying until one in the morning at these places. Right. And like grueling conditions that shouldn't be imposed on anyone, frankly. And I guess I think of that when I hear what you're saying, because I think it's the logical outgrowth of it. Obviously that's an extreme that we're not in, in America and thank goodness, but it's sort of where you go with it. The second thing I think of is, I confess, I pat myself on the back because the other day my kids, someone said, like, we might have to punish you if you do X. And my daughter looked at me and she goes, dad, what does the word punish mean? And I was like, we've never used it. Yes, because I think we have to get away from that punish. Right. As opposed to support mindset and remember why we're here. And it's the last thing that I think about, which is what you're talking about is really this, what I call traditional higher ed mentality, which is that the mark of a good professor, historically in higher education was someone that weeded kids out of a discipline. Right. So if I was the physics professor that said I failed 60% of people, so therefore they're not going to be physics majors. Like, I was a good professor. Where I think what we want to shift to is, like, who's the professor that's able to take any student, regardless of their entering point, and, like, ignite in the learning and then bring them so that they have a chance of being a physics major if they so choose and want to. And. And it goes to this bigger mindset shift of teachers, really, I don't think should be your graders either. Like, I think your authentic performances should be. And the teacher should just be there as the coach, cheerleading you on and helping you get across the finish line and supporting you. And that's what I think about when I, you know, when I hear you talking about this is. I just think it's an outgrowth of the system, as you said to me in the very beginning. And that's sad. I guess I keep wondering what's going to take for us to get out of that system.

Yeah. Well, as always, everything's all connected. And maybe I'll just wrap this segment with another one of my favorite quotes that I will butcher here, but hopefully get the big idea right. And it's this idea of you can walk past a stone cutter every day, and the stone cutters, you know, diligently, you know, making these precision hits on a stone with no visible movement. But then somewhere on the hundredth or five hundredth or thousandth blow, you know, that's when the stone actually breaks and you see the efforts. And so maybe that's where we are, Michael. We'll just keep talking about this, keep working on this, and we've got to get there at some point for our kids.

I think that's right. I think that's right. So tell me what. Tell me. I was going to say. Shit. Shift gears. Let's end Thanksgiving on a thankful note. This episode. What are you reading and thinking about right now?

Yeah, Well, I am reading a novel, Drowning in Fire, by Craig Womack. And it was recommended to me by one of Summit's amazing school leaders, Aries Yumon. I've learned so much from Aries, including that since 1995, all of our U.S. presidents have issued annual proclamations which designate November as National American Indian Heritage month, or, since 2009, national Native American Heritage Month. And these proclamations celebrate the contributions of American Indians and urge the people of the United States to learn more about American Indian cultures. I'm so grateful for Aries as being a guide on that. And speaking of connecting this novel was really resonated with him as he was growing up on his reservation. And it's such a beautiful story, Michael. I'm so grateful for him entrusting me and his willingness to share it with me. And I highly recommend it.

No, that's terrific. That's terrific. I'll go with something more lighthearted, although I'm adding that to my reading list now. But the. You know, I'm. We're finally at the age with our kids where we can see movies together. So we're doing some movie nights and stuff like that. But one that we watched a few weeks ago, the Greatest Showman about the story of P.T. barnum, was grabbed us all. And so we downloaded the sheet music. And so I've learned A Million Dreams, and the girls are singing it. And so we're going to be recording it in a couple days so we can send it out to all the family. But I just. The Million Dreams, it's. Every single time I play it, I tear up as I think about sort of the hopefulness of a world that we get to create. And I hope that's what we come out of this pandemic with, Diane, is a world that we get to create.

Well, that's a perfect place to end this week. And I hope you will share not just with family, but friends as well,

because I want to share it with you as well.

All right, Michael. Well, as always, it's been a pleasure and thanks to all of you for joining us on Class Disrupted.