Season 2, Episode 8: Teachers’ unions and reopening schools

Hey, Michael.

Hey, Diane. How are you?

Well, once again, we are sheltered in place here in California, which means basically staying in our homes as much as humanly possible, only engaging people with fully masked faces and for essential. For essential services. How about you?

Well, cases keep on rising here and we're just waiting to see what will happen. We've gotten some restrictions, but not nearly the lockdown you all have in California. So I would just say there's a lot of uncertainty. Diane?

Well, that seems to be the theme for the year. And it's. It's honestly the reality of this, you know, pandemic that we're living through and the surge that we're experiencing with the virus and, you know, the resulting actions that are being taken by states and local governments put education front and center once again. Again, which is why we created this podcast to begin with. And so, you know, in hopes that we can really track the intersection of the pandemic in schools.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I can't remember in my time in this field education consistently being such a front page story, but what's interesting has been a I, what I want to talk about to you today is what's becoming more and more of a hot topic. But honestly, it's been a little shielded from the front pages until relatively recently. And that's the role of teachers unions in all of this. And obviously in a past episode, we talked about how you have been working through the reopening question, that is, do we actually reopen physical schools and welcome our students into them and how do we do them? But in many schools across the country, as you know, there's another big voice in those decisions and it's teachers unions. And I really want to hear your thoughts about their role in all this.

Michael, this is a really critical conversation and we haven't had it yet here on Class Disrupted. I'm game. And I suggest that we actually spend the whole episode on it because I really want us to push past the sound bites and the over simplistic polarization and actually dig in because there's a lot of nuance here and I don't want to get into villains and, you know, so let's actually spend some time on it and do it right.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I think if you go back to our spring podcast and then all the episodes, unions is not a word that we've used through about all of this. And that's for a reason. I think, you know, you and I both have a belief that the challenges and opportunities facing our school system honestly, go much deeper than the unions. But it's a popular, hot take on either side of the political aisle. Right. About what's either good or bad about schools. And so, you know, and that. But they are a reality of the system. And in many states and large districts right now. Right. Teachers unions have played a powerful role in negotiating school closures and reopenings, and I think far more than the public at large realizes. So there were two articles in Education Week that got my attention about this in the last week, and it talked about how teachers unions have tended to be more conservative in their stance toward reopening buildings. And I might just put my bias out there. I think they have good reason to. In many cases, they've worried about safety for their members in schools with suboptimal ventilation systems, windows that don't open in some cases, and the like. And according to the article on Education Week, several statewide teachers unions, including in Illinois, Maryland and Wisconsin, have put pressure on their governors, though, to shut down schools all across the state, regardless of what the safety measures are in place or set clear benchmarks that dictate when districts will have to close their doors. Now, there's been some interesting academic research that's also come out in the last few weeks, which is, which is showing that schools with strong unions are less likely to be in person. But that pressure is even extended into limiting what private and charter schools that may be non unionized have been able to do in some cases. And this is clash directly. Right, Diane, with many who are pointing out that schools have been relatively safer than other places of work. They aren't the big cause of spread in communities, at least as we can see in the data right now. And children don't seem to get as ill. And the consequences though, of them not having childcare and in person teaching can be devastating, frankly. And relative to bars and gyms, for example, there are a lot of people saying, hey, states ought to prioritize reopening schools first and foremost. I mean, Dr. Fauci, for example, he's been strong in saying communities should prioritize reopening schools. So in my mind, the question has been whose interest, right, gets prioritized in making these decisions. But I'd say there's one other factor worth throwing in there as we dig in, which is there is some reason to be cynical. Right. And I'll just give you three data points, which is the Chicago Teachers Union, for example, when they released a list of conditions for reopening, it included the enactment of Medicare for All. Not quite sure what that has to do with schooling, but they threw it in there. The second one was in Fairfax County. The Federation of Teachers there called for keeping schools shuttered until at least the summer of 2021. Not a lot of nuance in that one. And in Massachusetts, the union demanded the permanent elimination of all MCAS exams, a blanket demand to restore all positions that had been cut in the spring. You get the idea. Basically, big demands that, you know, obviously we've touched on some of these in this podcast, but just big, blanket demands that almost seem like they're overextending what they're asking for. So against that background, what's your take? What's going on here in your mind?

Well, Michael, I think that before we even fully jump in here, I kind of want to just set the table a little bit, because in the articles you shared and all the pieces that I've been reading, there's a couple key points that I don't think anyone's talking about, but really are the underpinning of a lot of what's happening here. It's important people understand these pieces because it contributes to the conversations that's happening in the decision. The first place I would start is with race and class. We have to enter into this conversation by acknowledging some really foundational realities that don't get talked about much in the media. And cut to the heart of some of these tensions and conflicts. As we've said many times on this podcast, this is not just a health crisis we are in. It is also a critical racial and economic reckoning that we are experiencing as a country. And most people don't realize there are significant demographic and economic differences between union members and the students and families that they serve.

So let's lay out some stats on that.

Yeah, I mean, you know these, Michael, but most people don't. So the teachers in America, 79% of them are white women. 79% of teachers in America are white women. They make up the vast majority of union membership. Teacher union membership. Not true for students and families in the US Especially in cities. Students and families in the US Are now majority people of color. These are the people who are being served by these teachers. There's a real race difference there. There's also an economic difference. You know, we certainly, you and I, both believe teachers deserve to be paid more. Most people believe that. There are really important arguments to be made there. And even with what teachers are currently paid, in most places, they have a steady income with consistent benefits that include health care, medical, etc. The majority of our K12 students in America come from families that are literally the majority, Michael, living at or below the poverty line. Now, there's a huge economic difference between a lot of the students that are being served by the teachers and the actual teachers themselves. And I can just tell you from my own personal experience, having been, as, you know, a student who grew up in a family that was living well below the poverty line and having the experience of being a teacher, those are two fundamentally different existences. And what it means to be a child in a family living at or below the poverty line is that your existence is incredibly fragile and any little issue can throw you into crisis. Let's be clear. We have so many issues right now. The families are being thrown into crisis left and right, and, and teachers in most places continue to collect their full compensation, full salary, full benefits with no change or threat to those. And that's a really important.

It's an important backdrop. Diane yeah, I'm glad you brought that perspective in for starters, but I know that there's more on your mind against that backdrop as well.

Yeah, I think the second one is, and we've talked about this before, and it boils down to childcare. Look, the reality is that since the start of the pandemic, what has surfaced is a conversation we never really had before as a country. But teachers are childcare providers. And while it seems obvious that that's what schools do, the rub here is teachers do not see themselves as childcare providers. Michael if you said to a teacher, oh, by the way, you're a babysitter, I mean, they would cringe at that. I cringe at that. Teachers view their job as teaching. If a byproduct of that is watching over people's children and providing childcare, great. But there's this real sense of, like, that is not my job. I'm not a babysitter. This usually goes without much discussion or attention, but suddenly the pandemic comes along and the unions are effectively advocating for their, their members to get their full pay, full benefits, while not providing child care. And for families, you know, parents and families, as you might imagine, this is a really tough position to swallow given that for so many of them, if they don't work, they don't get paid. And so many of them have lost their work and would, like, do anything to get it back, even risk their own safety. But now, on top of all that, they have to figure out what to do to care for their children from a parent and family Perspective, it just straight up seems unfair. It just doesn't seem fair. But yet teachers, they feel like they are similar to so many other workers, that if it isn't safe to do the work, then they can't do the work. There once again, is this really fundamental difference in perspective and experience. Experience that I think is underlying a lot of the tension and the controversy we're seeing here.

Yeah, it's interesting. It reminds me of two quick things, which is one, it's sort of the old adage that what you think you're providing your people isn't actually what they are buying, if you will. Right. It's not what they want out of the experience. And there's no question about it. Childcare is a critical piece of this. The second thing that occurs to me is that there's a real asymmetry at play that you're talking about. Right. You have whole organizations advocating for unions. You don't have those same organizations necessarily advocating for students. Right. And that might seem like a small nuance in normal times. It's a rather large one against the backdrop that you just painted, Diane.

It is because you basically have all of these individual families going up against really well organized policy and advocacy machines. I mean, that's going to be a

lot of resources, resources behind them. Right. And, and, and, and an interesting set of conflicts. Right. Also as public sector unions, obviously. So this is a, this is not an insignificant point that you're making.

Right. I think the next thing that then emerges here, Michael, is a really interesting question about our teachers, essential workers. I mean, before the pandemic. I don't, I didn't ever think of that concept. Really. I don't know how much time you spent thinking about essential.

No, I mean, I think it's a, I think, I think it's a rather novel concept. I mean, it's, it's in some ways problematic because it's very hard to draw the line on it is my impression. Right. I mean, it gets, it's a very slippery slope in some regards and I'm not always sure how useful it, like it is at some point because so many parts of our world are, are, are essential. But.

Right, right. Well. And you know, I think there had been a few other incidents that maybe helped the public think about healthcare world workers, police, fire people as essential workers. Yeah. First responders had become a part of our lexicon in the US and so, you know, I don't, I think most people were comfortable with the idea of like, oh yeah, these people risk their lives to Carry out their duty. It's part of their job. And so that has kind of carried into the pandemic. And that people are like, okay, well, it seems, well, yeah, they're risking their lives. Where it starts to fall apart, though, is suddenly people who, I don't think anyone thought that about delivery people, postal people, food services people, warehouse, manufacturing, they're suddenly essential workers. Because what everyone figured out is without them, literally no one in the country can survive. They won't get food, they won't get basic essential things. And so these are professions, Michael, that people are expecting to risk their safety regularly. And also they tend to be lower paying with fewer benefits and less job security. And so this really seems starts to open this question for teachers of like, hey, wait a minute, if all these other people got turned into essential workers, why are teachers not essential workers? And why do they get a different sort of. Yeah, like it. Again, it doesn't seem fair, does it?

Yeah, no, I think it's the right question or it pegs on these things that I think part of what I struggle with is it's just so hard to draw these arbitrary lines down the middle and say it's all this thing or all that thing. It's so community dependent. It's so context dependent. And it gets into the next topic that's really forefront in my mind where I said I am sympathetic to a lot of the reasons that unions have pushed back on opening, and I'm glad that they have in some cases, which is safety. Right. And are these buildings truly safe? Are they getting the ventilation that they need? And so forth. And initially. Right, Diane, when this all struck, you know, we didn't really know anything about this virus. We thought it was all, you know, transmitted by hand, like playgrounds were getting shut down, so you didn't touch surfaces. And so we said, hey, everyone could sort of agree that it made sense to close schools. But. But the real debate, I think, has shifted in some measure now, and we've learned a lot more about how to keep people safe. And so I think there is a natural question, Diane, which is, can't schools do the same? As we've sort of started to unpack the safety question more and more.

I mean, there. You're exactly right, Michael, and there is a lot. But let's just start with some basic observations from my own experience, and I'm sure yours and almost everyone's, which is like, you all know, I'm an educator, and from day one, I've been immersed in thinking about how we can possibly operate our school buildings during the pandemic. And with that in mind, I pay very close attention to what everyone else is doing and in how they're opening and reopening their businesses. And there are some meaningful differences, Michael. Like when I go to the doctor, the dentist, those people who are seeing patients first, like, the volume of the people they see is incredibly low compared to a school. They. They only see.

Really interesting point.

You know, they see people for very short periods of time. They don't see them very often. They can control when and how people enter. They give several minutes to every single person to screen them before they can even come. Come in. You know, this is fundamentally different from what a school looks like, where people are in contact with each other for extended periods of time, day in and day out. The arrival and departure happens in batches. And the ratio of, quote, the workers to the patient, slash, customer is totally different. You know, I have gone to the dentist where there's four people working there, and me as a patient.

Yep. You know, so it's a really good point. I hadn't even thought about that.

Yeah, so. So that seems very different. And I, as an educator, have not learned a ton from their protocols because I'm like, this just is not comparable to school. Right. So then I'm like, all right, well, grocery stores or any kind of store, maybe there's something there. But again, like, they have more volume than these offices, but it's still super controlled. They can make people stand in a line out there and wait to come in. You know, people aren't trying to socially lies and engage with each other in the building. They're actually trying to avoid each other, you know, so, again, I'm just not finding a lot of, like, correlation between all these other places that people keep pointing to and say, well, they figured out how to do it. Why can't you figure out how to do it? School. Because the bottom line is schools are just dealing with a lot more complexity in what the being there looks like. And so I just think that that is a place where I have a lot of empathy for, you know, what's going on. And the union saying, whoa, timeout. This is not like everything else. And, like, how does this actually look, and what is it going to be like?

I totally agree with that. I think it's. It's. It highlights the complexity of what we're asking. I would also go so far as to say that it highlights the substandard experience. We're often asking schools to reopen into, Diane. Which is to Say that when they come back with masks distanced. What's already not a terribly social experience has not been nearly engaging enough in both of our opinions. Historically in most schools is arguably even less so. And I'm personally, and this is anecdotal and, but I've also seen it in a lot of surveys that sometimes the least satisfied in terms of families have been those that have been in these hybrid experiences where it's a couple days in person, a couple of days remote, and it's sort of the worst of both worlds in the substandard experience. On top of which, you know, you talked about the asymmetry of these two populations. The other piece that's worth saying is that the parents who've been the least in favor of their kids going back to school, as we've talked about in this podcast, is predominantly those in low income minority families they don't trust. I think a lot of these protocols to be done well because their communities have been most burned during this pandemic because they're the frontline workers. Right. They're the ones that are out in the community getting Covid first.

Frankly, I think that is something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough, that when you see all, all these parents who are advocating for schools to open and whatnot, again, they tend to be the more white, affluent leading families and not the lower income families of color. I also think that this just also highlights what you're talking about. The experience part highlights, once again, this disconnect between teachers who believe their job is to teach and not to provide childcare. And so when they start looking at these reopening plans and they're like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? I'm like checking kids in and taking temperatures and policing their behavior and, and then just babysitting them. What, Where? I don't even teach in this scenario. Why are we in this building? And so, you know, and I have some empathy for that perspective.

Yeah, I think I, I mean, reasonably so. Right. And so I, I guess the question from my perspective is, you know, where do you take it from there? That's constructive. Right. So, and so I'm curious where your head goes when I frame the question that way.

Yeah, well, one, one thing that has been really valuable to me is talking to school leaders across the country who I, you know, really trust and admire, who have opened their buildings. And one of the key things they've told me, Michael, is that, you know, there's a lot of fear involved in going back into the building and There's a lot of unknown. And what they've experienced is once people get in and they get into a rhythm and they get into a routine, some of that fear dissipates, some of the unknown goes away. People actually start to be able to do it then. And then they really do. Some of that joy and gratefulness of being back in person comes shining through. So I do. I do. I'm hearing from people, and granted, we have not gone back in the buildings yet, but some positive momentum of once you actually get in there with a. With a good plan. And so I think that's hopeful. The other thing I just think we got to throw in here really quickly is I think the public and the media and the politicians are not helping the conversation when everything that comes out of their mouth is about how schools are totally safe for kids, and they actually never even acknowledge that it's not true for adults. And I just think the absence of their acknowledgement of the teachers and the adults actually provokes teachers in the union to feel like they have to stand up for themselves, you know?

Yeah, that's a really. That's a really good point, Diane.

So, Michael, I think where this whole conversation is leading us is back to what we've been talking about from the beginning, which is there are. There are truly some systematic flaws in our system and the designs of our schools that are contributing to all of this. And, you know, that is at the heart of this. This conversation around teachers and unions.

Yeah, it's an. It's an important point, Diane, because I think, you know, some of what we've just said could be construed as sort of the union bashing. Right. And I. To both of us, that's not. That's not exactly what we're saying here. Right. That there's a deeper set of structural flaws in the system itself, and you've got to. Aren't there in some ways. So I. I think it's worth laying out a couple of those elements and then we can dig back into. Okay, so what would you do, given the backdrop in the current moment?

I agree. You know, so let's take ourselves back to March, where it became suddenly and painfully obvious that we had really poorly designed schools. And let's just start with the lack of technological infrastructure. You know, what we all discovered was unless a child is. Was in the building, they aren't connected or reachable or teachable, which is crazy in this day and age. There is a lack of common systems for communication and connections. I mean, how many schools literally lost Their families and their kids, they couldn't connect with them. There's a lack of common systems for learning. And as a result, this is what happened to teachers in the spring. Most teachers in the spring in this country were set completely on their own to do the work of an entire school system, Michael. They had to figure out online programs, platforms, how to connect, how to engage, how to teach in a completely different world overnight. So unfair to the teacher. Really, truly unfair.

And I want to come back to that point in a little bit, Diane, when we talk about solutions. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but I do want to come back to that because I do think when you move to remote learning or online learning fully, it shows that teaching can't be a solo sport. It's got to be a team sport.

And this is where I would say, and the unions do need to reflect on the role they have and continue to play in preventing these types of changes that need to happen. You know, it is not uncommon, Michael, for unions to demand that teachers have incredibly high degrees of autonomy and freedom when it comes to what they teach and how they teach it. And these constraints that are advocated by unions in contracts and often block the design for the changes in design that need to happen. And the lack of progress became really evident to parents as they got this front row seat to what it's like to be in class and just how bad that experience experiences, you know, as they sat looking over their kids shoulders into these zoom classes and, you know,

tell me about it.

It's not just because it's on zoom, Michael. I mean, this is, this is what school looks like and feel like for a lot of kids every single day. And, and I really do think teachers and unions have to examine the role they're playing in keeping things the way that they are.

So I think that, yeah, and I think that sets us up for the, you know, the conversation, which I hate the phrase I'm about to utter, but, you know, the learning loss question, I prefer to say, like the, like the not yet learned question or something like that. But, you know, this question of we've got a lot of students across the country that, you know, need not just childcare, but also learning experiences. We need to create a better opportunity for teachers to be able to reach those children. As you just said, they've sort of been stood out on their own islands and, and so forth. And the question is, what can we do in this moment as we think about what it means to safely reopen and the like? And I Guess I'm frustrated here by the role of the unions for a few reasons, because I think more than them being the block to reopening in person, which I'm sympathetic to, a lot of their reasons on the safety piece, less so on some of the overreach that they've done, I think that's overreach. But I am concerned because I think that they've been blocks on the reimagining of what schooling looks like and when learning happens. And I'll give you three just, you know, bullet points on my mind. One is professional development. So, you know, in a lot of districts that if you want to support teachers in being able to use new pedagogies or technologies or new practices or whatever else, you actually need to pay them for that professional development. On top of what they're getting, like for each hour that they are learning, it costs extra money to train them. Well, right now, school systems don't have a lot extra dollars. These were not budgeted. These are really difficult times. It's, I would argue it's been in the disadvantage of the teachers to not be able to get the professional development that they need to be effective in these new environments, whether they're remote or hybrid or in person with masks. And you're really tying the system by demanding pay for that. So that's, that's one second. A lot of places have been very strict on the hours that teachers can work. It's got to stay between, you know, sort of the 8 to 3 window, if you will. Otherwise, yep, it's going to cost you more. We're gonna have to get all these, you know, work through all these clauses to rethink hours and so forth. We need a lot of flexibility right now. Like, families are in, in very different circumstances. Mom and dad might work, you know, two jobs during the day, they might be around at night. Maybe that's the time to have school. Maybe they work at night, they're around during the day and they can be with their kids. Like, we need to have a lot more rethinking about when the learning occurs. And frankly, when you move to a full remote or online experience, what kids really need often is that text message at 10pm when they just have a question and they just need a little something support. Right. And, and sort of that 24, 7, which I don't expect any individual teacher to do, but as like a group of teachers figuring out how you staff, that I think is important. On top of which, like teachers have their own families too, and they might need More flexible hours to serve. But there's been huge blockages on that. And then the third thing I would say is that you acknowledged up front like child care is a major piece of these learning environments. It's really hard to figure out what opening safely in a school means because it's materially different from all these other environments. But then along comes all these micro schools and POD phenomenons and so forth. And the question I keep asking is, what would it look like if a district bunched a small group of students and gave them a teacher? Because we know that that contact with an adult human is so important in these times. And there was that in person support or like they created various POD environments where you could rotate households or thought creatively in a million different directions that I can't think of. Right. And there have been huge blockages on thinking outside the box like that as well, that I think not only could respond to the current moment and give the in person support, give the child care, give the feeling of team, allow teachers to collaborate across classrooms and provide, you know, I'm responsible for instruction, you're responsible for tutoring, whatever it might be. All that creativity that I think would be great for reinventing schools, period. But I think it could be doubly important right now. And that's where I've been most frustrated. Not just on the reopening, but just the blockages to innovating in the current system.

Yeah. Michael, what you're saying resonates so much with me. And you know, you and I both hate this, this, this learning loss idea. We choke on it every time we say it, because we do. We know that it's. It. It's basically a foregone conclusion for most people in the country. And it doesn't have to be. And you're pointing to how it doesn't have to be. If we actually get creative and apply some of what we know, it's possible. Here's the challenge. And this makes me so sad because I am a teacher. But teachers as a, as a profession and as professionals and their union as a professional organization just aren't credible on these ideas and this idea of being creative and innovative. The teaching profession today isn't grounded in science and best practice. And we can talk at length about why that is. And you've touched on some of those ideas about just like the unwillingness around professional growth and development or the blockers on that. But I mean, you know, the one, one simple example of this is just like the teaching of reading. I mean, at this point Michael, it's completely clear what conditions and what works for teaching reading, period, full stop. And yet we still have a significant number of teachers in the US who are teaching reading every single day in a way that has proven. Proven to be ineffective at best and harmful at worst to kids. And so they're just not credible right now. And so this learning loss idea is real because the profession cannot credibly stand up and say, actually, we know how to ensure that kids, all kids will learn. We have methods and approaches to make sure that all kids can learn. Our work is grounded in evidence and improvement science. And in order for that statement to be true, yes, our system needs redesign, and the professional organization representing teachers needs to focus on that aim, which is honestly not something they do right now. And so if I have a critique, that is my critique and frustration.

Yeah, and I guess my. I like to leave us in hope. And I'm hearing you say that I was, like, getting teary, so. But I think it's this, which is that I'm going to start with the depressing thing and then I'll shift to the hope, which is I think teachers got a lot of sympathy and love and realization of their value in the spring. And I think that's been somewhat squandered by the union's reaction and overplaying some of the things that have said that we can't reopen or we can't do acts, et cetera. And I think that's just like a tremendous shame and lost opportunity. But I also think it's contributing to the rising number of parents in the public that are in favor of different options that meet their kids where they are and are asking some of the big questions that we've been raising in this podcast. And unwittingly, I think it's going to hurt the unions in the long run. Right. That they're playing the strong hand right now, as they've had, and that there will be a backlash against it. And I guess I hope that we all not like pitting us against unions or unions against someone else or whatever else, but I hope we all take that as a way to step back and say, actually, there's some deeper truths and flaws in our system right now. How can we address them with the science of what you were just pointing to, Diane? And I'm hopeful that this creates the space to have that deeper conversation, not the blame game.

Yeah, I hope so, too, Michael. And my hope truly comes down to the reality that unions, I remind myself of this every day. Unions are not teachers. They and teachers are not unions. They're two very different things with very different purposes. And I know thousands of teachers, and I feel very confident that they are representative of the millions of teachers we have in our country who are deeply passionate about serving their students and learning and getting better and all of the amazing things we're talking about. And they want the changes that we're talking about in the system, and they crave them. And, and so that is what gives me hope, is teachers, you know, there's a reason people love their teachers. Teachers are amazing. And so we just need to harness that as a profession, as an end with the professional organizations to move in the right direction.

It's a good way to end this last podcast. But before we do, and as we go into the holidays and take a little break, Diane, what's. What's on your mind right now? What are you reading or watching or thinking about?

Yeah, well, Michael, my energy is going to what I would call holiday communications. So usually every year I, like, send out a holiday postcard. Yes, you do, as you are a recipient of them. What I'm discovering this year, Michael, is how much significance that is taking on this year having not seen people and how invested I am in getting those communications and reading and savoring every word and the pictures and. And then feeling really compelled to, like, send them out to people as, like, a way of connecting. So I've been. It's been a surprise to me that something that I do kind of on an annual basis is actually taking on so much more meaning this year. How about you?

Well, my kids addressed yours over the weekend, and I saw it go out, so it should be there soon. But the, you know, my wife and I wrote a book together, and it came out. It comes out tomorrow, actually. And so that's. Oh, my God. For Those listening Tuesday, December 8th, I guess. And so we're excited about that. It's a children's book. It's called Goodnight Box, and it's sort of the story that we wish we had had when our daughters were super little. It began as an inside joke between the two of us of. You're reciting Goodnight Moon by heart, right?

Right.

We started sort of fitting it for the Fitness and CrossFit worlds of which we're so dedicated. But the reason we ultimately wrote it is, like, I wake up every day as, you know, trying to figure out how do we enable all individuals to build their passion and fulfill their human potential and health and wellness? And role models to whom individuals can relate are critical factors in that journey and they're too often neglected in our conversations around improving for all. So our hope is that this book will help parents and children find their way to fitness and health. And we're going to give 10% of the proceeds to non profits that support at risk youth through movement based mentorship programs. So we're hoping that'll make a small difference this holiday season.

Oh, thank you, Michael. I'm so excited. I can't wait to read it. Congratulations. And that is where we will leave it this week. Thanks to everyone for joining us on this episode of Class Disrupted.