Season 2, Episode 9: Modeling grace and understanding

Foreign. Hey, Michael.

Hey, Diane. Happy New Year. I hope you got to unplug some over the holidays and recharge perhaps.

Happy New Year to you. And indeed, I was able to trade computer for some good old fashioned books, puzzles, games, movies. And Michael, I have to admit I did see sneak a few peeks at what's happening in the world and in doing so, of course took notice of the announcement of our new secretary of education nominee.

Yeah, it's good that you're staying plugged in and I'll be honest that I tried to stay offline as well. I don't know how successful I was, but I couldn't help but notice my social media. So that's the betrayal. I was on social media light up with various alerts about friends in the medical field receiving vaccines. And then I obviously started thinking about what does that mean for parents, kids and teachers with a new administration coming in relates to what you noticed and a potential for a reset for the country.

Indeed, indeed. And that's exactly why we started doing class disrupted in this second season so that we could sort of keep our fingers on the pulse of what's happening in education and just keep up to speed with the ever changing dynamics of things. And so I really wanted to jump in on the topic of vaccines. We have them now. As someone who's leading a school system in California of all places, where we're completely locked down again, I have more questions than answers. What does it mean for teachers to be prioritized? Should they be what does this mean for the return of school as the pandemic seems to be at its peak right now, potentially. There's just so many important questions I really want to pick your grip brain about. Michael.

Perfect. And for my topic, you frankly alluded to it earlier, Diane, which is that, you know, there's a new administration coming in and that means the when the president hopefully takes office in just a few weeks, that will mean, you know, at some point a new secretary of education who gets confirmed. And you know, in an earlier episode this season, we tackled the topic of the ideal qualifications for secretary of education. So I thought we'd go back and see how President Biden, President Elect Biden's nominee, Miguel Cardona stands up and you know, see through the frame that we introduced at first whether we think this, this is a good pick, if you will, as we hit this reset in the country. But before we go there, let's go to the vaccine question. So I'd love to hear how you're framing the issue as an Educator on the ground.

Sounds great, Michael. You know, it's pretty simple. As most of us likely know by now, two vaccines have been approved in the us another one in the UK and some others around the world. But for our purposes in the U.S. the vaccines have begun to ship to states. Unfortunately, the early media accounts seem to be suggesting it's not going as smoothly as people had hoped for or planned. It might be a little bit slower. There's a bunch of finger pointing and whatnot. But all of that said, there's obviously a bunch of technical questions and how questions about vaccines and teachers in schools. But before we even get to those, I think there's just some bigger questions that we should just ponder. For example, should teachers and educators be among the first to get vaccinated in the US As a society, how do we think about prioritization? If they are, what does that mean for reopening? What can and should we expect from schools? If we prioritize school people in the vaccine process, then I think also how is the news of the vaccine changing, if at all, the way school folks are thinking about the remainder of the school year? Because a bunch of us have been thinking and planning about the year with this mythical or hypothetical vaccine concept. But now that it's actually here, does that change our thinking? Those are my initial big questions. I'm super curious to hear your take on them, Michael.

Look, I don't know that I have clear cut answers. I think the first thing is a bit of sobering news that hit me which was reading Emily Oster's newsletter and sort of her, her contention that, you know, the vaccine itself by itself will not be the cure all that folks think it is, at least right away. And that, you know, she's worried that the promise of the vaccine, and this is a quote, will lower public and policy interest in other approaches, which would be a mistake. And what I took from that and she pointed out is, look, you know, you're going to get the vaccine, it's going to be uneven. We're still trying to figure out how long it will last and so forth. I mean, there's a little bit of a debate in the media. Does it prevent you from getting the symptoms or actually the disease itself? And so mask wearing, distancing when possible and hand washing are still going to be important, I think, and obviously there are, and this is her points, harder things, you know, the restrictions around not seeing others, avoiding large category gaps, gatherings and so on are still going to probably be at least a little bit a part of Our reality. And then the final one that she pointed out is that the importance of testing, and not testing of what you've learned or not, but testing of do you have it on a regular basis? Right. And we still in this country haven't really gotten the infrastructure up where we need it for testing in schools across the country to be giving teachers and students and parents the comfort I think that they're demanding right now. I think that's going to be a really important part of it. The second thing that I've been struck by was that there was a district in Indiana reported just this week that already started to vaccinate teachers. And those teachers are ones that are teaching in person. And so I think this is a really promising sign. It's adding another layer to that safety lasagna, if you will, that Emily Oster writes about and facilitating opportunities for kids to be in school. Now, incidentally, these teachers got prioritized because essential workers, healthcare workers, didn't sign up for the vaccine. That's alarming from my perspective and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. But I guess I think we have to think about what are the priorities, have an honest conversation in person. Teachers, I think is important. And the last point I'll just bring up is I do think we're going to have to have a real conversation about requiring vaccines for students and likely teachers, barring certain conditions as a requirement to be allowed to be enrolled in person in schools. We do it for lots of other things. And I think that's a conversation that is going to have to happen at some point. And I suspect, you know, where you are in California, there's lots of anti vax, you know, vaxxers, right. So I think it's going to be contentious, but I think it's a real conversation that's going to need to occur in some way.

All really important and interesting points, and they dovetail with a lot of what I've been thinking about on this topic. Michael, first, I think what you're really pointing out is as much as we all, I think we're hoping for a new year and maybe things to look really differently. They're just not going to for quite some time. You know, the reality is maybe by the fall school will look and feel a bit normal, but really not throughout the spring, even if we're getting back into buildings, because the vaccine just doesn't do it completely, as you've really pointed out. I think, I think where I kind of start on this is there seems to be relatively Universal agreement, believe it or not, that having a majority of schools physically closed throughout the pandemic has been just bad for kids and families and the economy and just our country. And so, given the extensive reach of the issues into all facets of American life, it seems reasonable that educators should be prioritized for vaccination. I mean, this is a big part of our country. It's a big part of the issue. And so I personally am in that camp of, yeah, they should be towards the top of the list. Because when you really boil down, you know, the big gating factor to getting school buildings back open, it's really the health and safety and availability of teachers and staff. And so, you know, that. That all seems logical to me. That said, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if vaccines will be enough to convince teachers and school people to come back. And you started alluding to this like, are we going to have to do some mandatory stuff? And like you, I was really struck by the fact that those vaccines were available to teachers because the healthcare workers were actually refusing them. And if this becomes a trend, and, you know, a lot of people are worried about people not choosing not to get vaccinated for a variety of reasons, now we've got a whole other issue that we're dealing with that is really deeply concerning. I think that that might be one piece of it. I also just wonder. This is complex and complicated and teachers are humans. And so I think we might start seeing, even if we've taken care of vaccines, a bunch of other issues starting to emerge where it seems that everyone was waiting for the vaccine and this was going to be the panacea. But now that we have it, we might start seeing teachers worrying about different things or having different reasons they can't return, whether it be just feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of trying to come back into the building in the middle of the year with kids who are so far behind and have such needs and, and such expectations placed on teachers, just that reality might be a real block for people. And so all of that to say, if we start to see that hesitancy, I really think it's gonna read to parents and politicians like, excuse making. And to your point and worry, I feel we might get into a place where we've got some groups standing in opposition of each other. And I think you might hear some calls from people saying, like, look, if you don't go back into the building and you don't get vaccinated, you're not going to get paid, you're not going to get your benefits. You know, we've, we've been doing this all along, but enough is enough and it would be. I worry about that because I just think it's a really unhealthy place to go and I hope we can navigate this more collaboratively.

Yeah, no, I think it's, you know, it's an interesting set of questions you raise. And it's complicated. Right. I mean, it touches on some of the union conversation that we had in a previous episode. Episode around sort of reasonable asks for safety versus using it as a bargaining chip for way, way more things that I think will invite a backlash and actually be to the detriment. A second thing that I'm struck by is I was talking to a couple teachers about a week ago or so, and they were telling me that a district that they were teaching in had required teachers to come into the school buildings to teach even when the students were remote. Why? Well, because when they weren't in the school buildings, the teachers just didn't log on to teach. And so there's some bigger, you know, there's some big issues there, I think, around trust. Right. And in all of this. And then the third thing I'm struck by, which I think may be the perfect segue into my topic of Miguel Cardona, which is this question of tests in the spring, you know, around what have you learned or not? And if kids are back in buildings in the spring far more than they are now, I think that's going to ramp up pressure significantly to do the tests to figure out where are the kids in their learning. Put aside our contention that you're actually not going to find out the results of those for several months. I'm not sure how useful they are, but we'll go there later. But I think it is going to ramp up the pressure, which is going to, I think, ramp up the discomfort of teachers with being put into that position. And I get that. So, you know, that's, I think that's a backdrop of where Miguel Cardona gets nominated. And quick bio for those who haven't been following him. He's from Meriden, Connecticut, the place where, when I was at the Yale Daily News, we printed our paper in the Meriden.

Oh, there you have.

So I know that drive very well at 2 in the morning. But, you know, he's English as a second language, grew up speaking Spanish, was a fourth grade teacher, was named principal of a school, elementary school, at age 27. And he was the, the youngest principal in Connecticut history. And then he became the assistant superintendent of that district for four years and in 2019 was named commissioner of the Ed of Education in Connecticut, overseeing the K12 and vocational high school systems. So just to do a quick rundown of where he stands on some of the issues from Education Week, because I think that's sort of the maybe jumping off point for some of this conversation, which is that one, he's someone that has encouraged schools to reopen with proper precautions. He's been very clear about that. But he's been praised as being thoughtful on the issue. Not just sort of like everyone in the buildings, like, let's get you what you need. Let's get the ventilation right, let's get the, the masks and I'm sure get the vaccinations and so forth. In terms of charter schools, which is a flashpoint particularly within the Democratic Party right now, he seems relatively neutral from what I can tell. You know, understands that they're an important choice but not the dominant form of schooling. The third piece on testing, he has been planning to test in the spring in Connecticut. He wasn't going to ask for a waiver. He's not an anti test person. But it also appears that he's in favor of more balance in measurement, it seems. Fourth, and I'll just do two more. Given his racial and linguistic background, he's wary of lower expectations for an individual based on who they are entering a school. And I think he's likely to act very purposely as a role model. And I'll just say one thing. We talked about all the things that the Secretary of Education can't do, but one of the things that they can do is they the bully pulpit. And I think he will be quite effective as a role model in that, in that place. And then the last piece is he has good relations with unions, it appears, you know, again, topic of our last episode. But I think he has been able to manage sort of some of the tensions in the Democratic Party in particular between pushing for outcomes for kids and doing so in a way that's thoughtful and takes into consideration the concerns of unions as he does so. So he seems like he's a really interesting from a political perspective pick there. But where's your take? I'd love your your reaction as you caught some sneak peeks over the, over the break.

Well, that was a really great rundown of him and I am, I'm compelled by the, the positions that you just laid out for us because you know, I don't know, this might come as a surprise, surprise to some Folks, But I am really, really pleased with this choice. It's pretty simple for me, Michael, even though I'm consumed by education, it is my life. It's what I live and breathe. I am first and foremost a mother, a community member, an American. And what I believe our country needs right now is to stop tearing each other apart and to start collaborating on some really significant challenges we are facing. President Elect Biden's selection of Miguel Cardona is a very clear signal to me that the new administration isn't interested in taking a side or fanning the flames of the education wars. They aren't going to use even an ounce of political capital on a nominee that is from one camp or the other and instigate that sort of infighting. And as you ran through his bio and his experience, what sticks out to me is just how neutral he is. Literally right down the middle of what are these dividing issues in education? There aren't any markers or signals, right or wrong, accurate or not, that most people in education who are, who were on that potential list had that sort of placed them on one side of an issue or another. And so in short, he doesn't belong to any side. And I think that's exactly what we need. I think that's what we need right now. There are so many people in education who in so many ways want the same thing and go to battle every day against each other. Other. We know what that looks like. We've been experiencing that for years at this point. And I'm really interested in exploring what it looks like to collaborate and find third way solutions to the really significant challenges we are facing. And I'm really hopeful with this pic and with the bully pulpit that in Miguel Cardona we get a symbol and a spokesperson of that approach in that way. And so I'm optimistic.

So, Diane, I'm sympathetic to what you said and I'll get into that a little bit more in a moment just for the sake of. I don't know if it's devil's advocate, but just to dig in a little bit on some of the things that we pointed out in an earlier episode would be required for the secretary. You know, he doesn't have extensive experience in post secondary education where a secretary has a lot more clout than K12. Yes, he's taught at a college, but that's about it. And it was basically, as far as I can tell, an adjunct role where he taught a class a semester or so. Second, and I didn't say this up front, he is pro technology in the way that we are, that everyone needs broadband and a device right now. It's table stakes for the 21st century. Right. And I think that's great. He's on the right side of that in my mind. But. But the only thing I'll say is it's not really the Department of Education's role to get that out in the country. Right. Like to the extent the federal government is involved in it, which it's very heavily involved, but it comes out of the FCC and Congress. And so there's some limiting. You know, when the Obama administration was so forward on broadband connectivity in schools, it really was run from the White House, less from the department. So I think that's just important to remember the third. I'm bullish in the sense that I think he could be a real spokesperson though, and a real change agent to create far more transparency and data on the tech issues and around Covid in schools, rather than relying on all the sort of third party analyses that existed. I think he could do something there. And that is a place where the Department of Education, like it really is made for collecting data and revealing transparency. And so I think he can be effective there, like you, like on charters and choice. I'm glad he's not a reactionary against them. There was some thought from a lot of us who follow this that Biden was likely to go far more left in to appease the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party on this particular pick. I think he struck a thoughtful balance between the two factions, as you said, as opposed to sort of just going one way and then, I guess, you know, so those are some positives, some negatives. You know, I will say he's not the change maker that I think our system so sorely needs. From like a symbolism perspective, like, like you imagine Sal Khan getting nominated as Secretary of Education and what that would signal, even though he probably couldn't do most of what, you know, he would want.

Right.

But like you, I'm. I'm in the same place. I think we really, we not just ought to be supportive of him, we need to be supportive of him because I think he seems competent, he seems really well informed. And I think in a world where we haven't given nearly enough grace to folks who come into positions of power from either party, it's an obligation right now to give more goodwill and grace and courtesy to restore that national dialogue that you spoke about and our collective sense of purpose. And so I'm with you. I'm planning on being supportive of him. I think we all should, as part of our national civic duty, frankly, at least initially, there ought to be a really sound honeymoon period like there used to be in politics. And I think that would be really. I think that would be super healthy for the country. And I hope that as Americans, we can extend that grace, because I do think he. He sits in the middle, as you said, of so many of these issues, and he's not going to appeal to every single person. But let's just understand that and model, I think, what he's going to bring as a listener into this conversation. But I'm going to go to you a little bit as my last thought, because, you know, you've had some strong opinions on testing. Not that I haven't, but, you know, you have. And he said, you know, he really wants testing in the spot, like, that's a big priority for him. So I just love your take on this a little bit more in depth.

Well, maybe this is. You're giving me an opportunity to model the sort of grace and approach that we're, I think, both advocating for here. And, you know, I certainly don't want it to be one of those, like, just lay and wait until he says something or does something, and then people jump on him. I think I want it to be much more sincere and so, sure, it should be genuine.

Yeah.

Yeah, really. And so testing's the perfect example because, you know, it's a very hot but very button issue for me, as everyone knows by now who's listened to this podcast. I don't think it's a smart strategy for our collective goal of supporting every single student to be engaged in learning and growing to test them this spring. And I am really listening and trying to work with others, actively working with others who are equally passionate about students and feel strongly that the information generated from that testing is needed so that students don't get left behind and forgotten. And so we come at. We want the same thing, but we come at it in a very different way. And this is really my hope for Miguel Cardona, that he's going to be a willing participant at the kinds of tables that I'm trying to sit at and bringing people together and convening them to work on what's best for kids and people who have different ideas of how to achieve those goals, finding a path forward together, as opposed to this win, lose, like I win some, you lose, you know, whatever. And so I. I just. We're gonna have to check back on this. My hope is that's the direction we're going and that he can really be the leader in that approach to things. And I personally, personally am committing to whatever I can do to contribute to that. Yeah, but, but I think that might be for, for another day. We're going to be checking back in on this one.

Yeah, well, we can hold it there. And, and, and, and as we wrap up, as we always do, Diane, you know, check in for, you know, what are you reading to, listening to, watching this week outside of, you know, conversations around the Secretary of Education, in fact, vaccination, what else has been on your radar the last week or so?

Well, Michael, it feels a little bit unoriginal, but bear with me here. You know, with the new year comes new goals and intentions and my family has a whole practice around, around that. And so one of my intentions this year is to really relearn some basic things. And this is going to sound a little bit funny, but like, I'm literally working on how to sit, sleep, stand and walk and specifically in ways that don't contribute to some really challenging back issues that I've been grappling with for the last couple of years. And so one of the interesting things about being home during COVID and not traveling and whatnot is like I'm actually paying attention to my body that's giving me some signals about, oh, you got to do something about this. And so it's humbling to be learning to see sit again and great, you know, it's great. I feel like a learner. How about you?

Yeah, well, first, I hope you are able to give that attention to the back in this new year. So over the break, I was reading 7 Habits of Highly Effective Leaders that many folks know. And two things jumped out at me now that I've heard you talk today. One was the importance of understanding before you try to be understood. Right. And so you were talking about how you're working with people who are passionate about students and doing the right thing by them and believe testing is really an important thing in the spring. And I think it's incredibly important to, from that book I take, you know, let's figure out what are their real priorities there, what are their whys. Right. And so that by doing that we can come up with perhaps other solutions that hit hit both and lead to the second point that I took out of this, which is a win win as opposed to a win lose or a lose win. And that, you know, that's habit four that, that Stephen Covey writes about and this passage on creating win wins. And I was really struck as I was reading it because I was thinking a lot about Todd Rose in our first season of Class Disrupted. And the contrast from a zero sum game which has characterized so much of how we've designed our education system to sort people to say, oh, there are limited slots in elite colleges or there's, you know, only a certain number of A's we're going to grade on Curves to rather getting out of that mindset of scarcity to a mindset of abundance and seeing things as a positive sum game where, where we can have win, win. And he does a great job in the book of pointing out just how much of our world actually is not, not competitive. It is a win, win world. And if we can just get out, you know, get out of that scarcity mindset, I think we can unlock a lot. So for me, an intention for the new year is really listening and trying to find those win wins way more than, than perhaps I always have been in the past. So that, that's what I what's on

my mind that feels like a perfect invitation to this new year. And, and we will come back next time with some ideas about how we can maybe live into that. And so with that, join us next time on our next episode of Class Disrupted.