The Reporters Roundtable

So Michael, we often use the word system to describe higher ed, but it's hardly a system at all. In fact, it's mostly focused on institutions, states, and then, of course, private colleges and universities in those states.

That's right, Jeff. And as a result, when we focus too much on how the national press conflict covers higher ed, we miss the nuances in localities and regional differences. We're seeing that, for example, right now in how Covid is impacting higher education. So today we welcome three regional higher education reporters to help us understand what's happening on the ground in higher education in three very different places in the United States.

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I'm Michael Horn.

And I'm Jeff Salingo. Michael One of the most popular episodes of Future youe in the last two seasons has been when we had higher education reporters on the broadcast in season three, it was from the trade press, and then last year we had three national higher education reporters on. So we wanted to mix it up a bit today by going into the States. My second job at the Chronicle was as a state reporter in the late 1990s when there were so many newspapers with higher education reporters. And indeed, like many national reporters, we used to use those local reporters as tip sheets. We would read the local newspapers to figure out when we would want to go to a state to cover a higher education issue. And in many ways I got to be friends with a lot of them because when I would fly into a place to help me understand what was really happening, we'd have coffee or dinner or breakfast or something. And it really helped me put something into the national context when writing for the Chronicle. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the case anymore. There were so many fewer regional papers now covering higher education, and many places don't even have one higher education reporter. And it's unfortunate because it's so critical to what's happening on the ground.

As we'll hear today, you're Absolutely right, Jeff. But I will say you have done a good job of curating a great group of folks on the ground in the states to give us just that perspective that you described. And so we're thrilled to have with us today Teresa Watanabe from the Los Angeles Times, David Jesse from the Detroit Free Press, and Molly Minta from Mississippi Today. Welcome, everyone.

So before we discuss how some national higher education issues are playing out in your states, I want to start to talk about some of the stories that you've been writing lately. So, Teresa, let's start with you in California, because the state has long been held up as an example for other states because of its master plan for higher education. But in in recent years, well, maybe a lot longer than that, it hasn't been much of an exemplar. One issue, of course, is you have a growing and more diverse population, and thus there's a lot of questions about access to the community colleges, to the Cal states, and to the UCs. And UC recently announced that it emitted its largest and most diverse class ever. But at the same time, there's a huge space crunch. And I was interested to see an interview that you recently had with the new chair of the University of California Board of Regents where she floated the idea of expanding. And I was really interested in it because it's a pet issue of mine because most of the selective institutions in the US have remained pretty small for a long time. So. So what's being discussed in terms of alleviating demand for seats, not just in the University of California system, but but in the entire state, and is it going to gain any traction?

Well, this is a huge issue, Jeff. There's a lot of really good work being done to expand access to college, including dropping the standardized testing requirements. But the problem is that California has not increased capacity to the same extent. So you had record applications, no appreciable increase in seats, and therefore a lot more competition and heartbreak for students who didn't get into their campus of choice. The good news is that the new chair of the Board of Regents, Cecilia Estilano, has made expanding enrollment capacity a top priority, and it's also something that state legislators are focusing on. Estellano is talking about putting everything on the table, including educational hubs where UC could possibly share facilities, coursework, and even faculty with higher education partners. And the Legislature has pledged some significant enrollment funding for next year to add 15,000 seats at UC and Cal State, plus a $2 billion fund that the two systems can use to create or expand off Campus satellite sites. They've also pledged funding for ucla, UC Berkeley and UC San Diego so they can reduce out of state and international students who pay more tuition to make more room for Californians. And then, you know, of course, campuses are also trying to get their students through to graduation more quickly to open more seats. And everyone is talking about expanding online offerings.

It's a lot of movement there. And I want to turn to other movement that's occurring also in Michigan and David, obviously two big, well known universities nationally in Michigan State and the University of Michigan, both having been rocked by scandals with doctors and sexual abuse of students. Larry Nassar, of course, at Michigan State, and Robert Anderson at University of Michigan. And at Michigan State, the fallout was the president resigning. At the University of Michigan, we've seen a lot of discussion about the legacy of Michigan's late and renowned football coach, Bose Schembechler. And I'm curious though, beyond those immediate impacts, more about the impact on the university as a whole. Because we've seen at other big universities like Penn State, usc, UNC and others, they tend to survive these massive scandals without much of an impact, at least it appears, on enrollment, research, faculty, even fundraising scandals, though that probably would take down smaller and less well endowed universities. And so I'm curious, what have you seen as the impact on Michigan State and the University of Michigan from these scandals?

I don't think, as you mentioned, that either of these scandals will take down the universities. Both of them are too big. The University of Michigan has what, $12 billion endowment, right?

It's hard to, it's hard to,

yeah, hard to run through that, that pretty quickly. But I think what you're seeing is some attitude. So at Michigan State, there's a real skepticism about the leadership there that maybe wasn't there beforehand. And then as people rise up the ranks of that leadership, they're asking, well, what was your involvement around this? What is your transparency? What is your plan for making sure some of those issues of communic and letting the board know and talking to students, what's your plans for handling that? And so you see that a little more there than you saw in the previous years at the University of Michigan with Robert Anderson. It's really an interesting thing going on because the current administration had nothing to do with when he was there. He, you know, he was gone in 2002. There's no, there's not even board members left, right? There's, there's just not people around in leadership positions. And so I think there you're seeing big Discussion around myth making and who is Michigan and what does it mean to be an alum of, of this school? You mentioned Bo Schambelker, right? He's this legend. There's all these myths around him. And so as that sort of is being peeled back, you're seeing people really struggle with, well, this bow, this myth that I knew that was this football coach means one thing, but these are my teammates. These are the players I cheered for. And, and for today's students, it's, they didn't even cheer for them. It's, you know, their, their dad cheered for them or, you know, their, their cousin was here. And so, but I still think. So that's kind of what I think will happen at U of M over the next couple years is just that what does it mean to be a quote unquote, they like to call themselves, you know, a Michigan man, you know, a Michigan woman. What does that really mean?

Well, you know, David, you mentioned the boards in Michigan, and one of the things I always found fascinating about is it's one of the only few states in the country where public university regents are elected. And it really takes the power out of the hands of the governor for these political plums that they get to give out in so many states. And Molly, I want to move to you because in Mississippi, the state's Institutions of Higher Learning board, often referred to as the IHL board, has been often referred to there. I remember even going back to my days of covering this at the Chronicle as a, as another branch of government. That's just how much power they have. Right. They oversee, obviously, a huge higher education system that employs over 27,000 people, educates almost 100,000 students. And typically these boards operate in the dark in a lot of states. And unfortunately, it's because there's not enough higher ed reporters out there following them. But it's been in the news a lot lately there because first in reading your coverage, it's been missing some members. And then at a time where there's a national focus, particularly on, on historically black colleges and universities, has been really responsible and people are asking a lot of questions, it seems, for the historical underfunding and lack of attention to HBCUs in Mississippi. So what's at play right now with that board?

Sure. So like you mentioned, the IHL board in Mississippi is comprised of gubernatorial appointees. So here, where the Republican Party has a lot of power, that means that these appointees, who are typically businessmen or lawyers, they have conservative political connections, and they probably form those connections at one of the five predominantly white institutions in Mississippi. So these kinds of folks, they not only make up the majority of the board, but they also tend to hold the most powerful positions on the board and they're really able to see steer it like, steer the ship in favor of the predominantly white institutions. And a great example, or maybe not great, but in Mississippi, we have this case commonly referred to as the heirs settlement. It's basically historic civil rights case that said the state was violating 14th amendment by underfunding the three HBCUs. Part of that settlement, sort of like optional part of the settlement in a way, was that the IHL board was supposed to raise funds for a private endowment for those three HBCUs, around 30 million. And 20 years after that settlement, they've only raised about 1 million.

It says it all, right?

Says it all. Yeah.

So before we move on to some other national stories that are playing out, I wanted to ask about a few other stories that caught our attention. And Theresa, you. You mentioned standardized tests. Because in the sat, of course, in the act, have been getting a lot of national attention during the pandemic because so many colleges went test optional. And we know the University of California is not taking the SAT or ACT into account at all because of a lawsuit settlement. So I'm just kind of curious, how is this playing out among the faculty there who had recommended in a report a few years ago to keep the test? And there's all this speculation because as California goes, so does the rest of the country. So I think there's a lot of interest in the rest of the country about whether California might really develop an alternative test, which I know has been talked about. Or is that just kind of rhetoric and may not really happen?

Yeah, it was an enormous controversy when that report came out, and there was a lot of anger among faculty members over how the whole issue was handled. They felt really rushed to try to produce that report. There was huge division on the faculty committee itself with some supporting a continuation of the test and others saying, no, it's racist and unfair and it needs to be dropped. And then the faculty committee was also not happy that their work was simply dismissed by the Board of Regents. And some of them felt it was more of a political decision rather than a research based one. But that said, there is efforts to look for an alternative test. They've pretty much ruled out creating one from scratch because the estimates were that that would take nine years to develop and cost millions of dollars. No one is going for that option. What they're looking at now is trying to repurpose a statewide assessment that's used for all 11th graders and seeing if that is a possibility. But there's also big issues with that as well. When I talked to the admission directors this year, they all seem pretty happy with not having a test. They said it really made little if any difference in how they were able to assess applicants. UC Berkeley is very strongly opposed and they really believe that they can select their class without the use of any standardized tests. My guess is that UC may just go forward without a test and if they end up using one, it will be some repurposed of the high school assessment.

Yeah. And I think that's just going to be a huge impact on the rest of higher education because I think what a lot of our, you know, just in terms of talking to our listeners, we know, for example, that, you know, a lot of California students apply elsewhere.

Right.

They apply out of state. And if they don't have to take the test for, you know, the University of California, they're going to say, well, why do I have to take the test, the test for fill in the blank college in another state. And so this is why I think every college leader and of course, the ACT and the College Board, which owns the sat, is really looking closely at this to make sure to see what happens because it's going to impact them as well.

Jeff it's interesting just listening to this because all these questions have had political ramifications and they always say politics is local. Right. But they have national ripple effects. And you know, I'm thinking also, David, turning to you in terms of Michigan, like a lot of states right now in the Midwest and Northeast, there's a lot of small struggling colleges. Right. And this has been a recurring theme of mine and on future you and you've been taking a deep dive into small liberal arts colleges across the Midwest for a Spencer Education Fellowship at Columbia's journalism school and talking about the challenges that they face, their place in the overall higher ed system and their relationships to the small towns that they're often found in and how critical they are for the local economies. And I'm curious the headlines from your reporting that you found that might be different from or at least shed a greater light on the national narrative that many of these colleges are in trouble. And I'm also curious how the pandemic has factored into that financial picture for them.

I think you mentioned the one that going in I wasn't prepared for, and that's the tie between a town and a small college. Generally speaking, a Lot of these small colleges are in rural areas and in a way they act as a quasi public college. Right. And so this is where the, you're going to go and watch the theater production. Right. And you're going to go to a lecture and the local school is going to have their, their commencement there and right. All that public stuff. There's also in a lot of these small towns this college has actually propped up the local community. I'm thinking of Albion. Right. Where the college owns. We showed about 70% or so of the downtown, like literally owns it. And so, and they're doing it in an effort to, to, to bring that downtown up. But if they're not there, not only is there not that base of employment and all that stuff you normally think of, like the downtown, here's the biggest property owner that's now, it's now out of that. So I think that connection is, is key to really think about like why should I care whether Jesse, you a small private school makes it or not? You know, it's not like my public taxpayer dollars are going there largely that I think that's, that's why people should care about that. I think the other thing to think about is, you know, certainly they're struggling a lot, but there are a few that are doing well. Right. That do see growth and those are the ones that are really have a sense of who they are in a sense of, of mission. And you're going to see some further reporting on that from me here in the, in the coming weeks of who's actually growing in, in, in these areas.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting David, because Covid also not only battered institutions, but patterned students as well as obviously mental health issues. Well being of students. But also retention and graduation. We know from National Student Clearinghouse data that retention has taken a big hit. Enrollment has taken a big hit at a lot of colleges. And in Mali we talk a lot about access and equity in higher education right now. And a big issue is where the financial aid dollars are going in higher ed. And you've reported recently that Mississippi is spending almost half, half of its financial aid budget on programs that go to students who would go to college otherwise. And what's interesting to me and when I was at the Chronicle I did a lot of reporting on state based financial aid programs. And particularly in these states that have higher proportions of low income students, it always seems that their money goes to not those students, but students who don't necessarily need the money. So who's getting left behind in these

in this formula, in Mississippi, it's working class students of color, primarily. If you look at the numbers, There was around 26,000 students in Mississippi who got aid last year, about 45 million. Two thirds of those were white. That's not proportionate at all to who lives in Mississippi. Only around 20% came from people or families that make less than 30,000 per year, the poorest families. And this is interesting because it's kind of Mississippi has one of the three main financial aid programs. It's called the HELP Grant. And it's supposed to cover, well, it covers all four years of college and it's tailored specifically for students who need financial aid to go to college. And the HELP Grant is sort of it has a bloated in recent years, it's sort of responsible for most of the funding, yet only around 4,000 students actually get it. And one of the other, I guess, sad ironies of this is that there's a cutoff if you come from if your family makes more than $39,500 a year, you don't get any aid from the help grant. So there's also, if you like, truly, if you come from a family that makes $39,600, you just fall right off a cliff there. You just fall right off a cliff. Exactly.

And of course, this relates to a larger question across the country in terms of the students who've been, quote, unquote, missing from higher education over the pandemic and so forth. And we'll take a quick break right here, but when we come back, we'll tackle some of those national storylines and how they're playing out locally. That's next on the on Future youe.

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So welcome back to Future youe. And let's move on to some of the national headlines and see how they're playing out in your states. And of course, the big one that we can't get away from, it seems, even here in the fall of 2021, of course, is Covid. We really thought, I think many of us thought life on college campuses would be a little bit more normal by now, but that's not necessarily the case in now because of the delta variant. And I want to start with you, Molly, because like in many states, and I think this is particularly a trend in the south, is that Covid and mandates, whether that's masking or vaccines on campuses, has really become just this political issue. What's happening there around masking vaccines? Just Covid in general in higher education?

Sure. So this is the big story right now. All of our college campuses do have mask mandates. Came following after the Department of Health put out some new guidance for the colleges. But I think what you're really seeing is that the presidents of all the universities, they're not necessarily being proactive. They mandated the masks after the State Department came out and said, we really encourage you guys to do this. A similar dynamic is happening with the COVID vaccine and questions around requiring that. So for months, the presidents have been saying that they won't mandate the COVID vaccine unless the IHL board does. They even went so far as to say that they believed legally they didn't have the power to mandate the vaccine unless the IHL board went ahead and did it first. So there was a couple weeks of reporting that I did showing, actually, no, that's not the case. They do legally have the power to require the vaccine if they want to. But then recently the IHL board voted not to require the vaccines at all. So the presidents aren't going to do anything, it seems. And then you have kind of these two, like warring, maybe that's not the wrong word, but opposing factions. You have the faculty who have been very outspoken asking for mandates. Specifically at University of Mississippi and Mississippi State, you have these groups who tried circulating petitions and getting resolutions through the faculty senates. But then you also have this very loud group of parents, primarily on Facebook, who are very against any kind of mandate. In fact, they wish that there weren't even mask mandates on campus.

This is why so many people don't want to be a college president these days. So what's happening in California and in Michigan? Let's start in California.

Well, here on the left coast, things are very different. As I'm sure you guys all know, Both the UC and Cal State systems move forward quickly to require vaccinations in order to enter campus. And those vaccination rates, I know some of the UC campuses that have started up, they're already over 90%. As a result, the COVID case rates are very low, even though they have returned to campus. But like everyone, we're going to be keeping a very close eye on what the in person, back to school looks like. We'll keep an eye on the COVID case rates, how many students actually come back, who are they, and what are their experiences? I mean, one interesting little difference is that The Cal State systems, 23 campuses, have a higher rate of students opting in for online instruction, whereas at UC, there's a lot more students who just want to get back into their dorm life and their campus life. And so we want to dig into that and see why are more Cal State students wanting to stay online? Is it because they've got more work responsibilities or family responsibilities? Or maybe they, you know, don't want to commute to a campus. We're not sure. And then we're also going to be looking at how campuses deal with faculty who are resisting directives to teach all in person and want flexibility to offer more online offerings and how they will help students who have fallen behind during the pandemic catch up. So there's just a whole ton of issues that we'll be looking at.

Teresa, before David jumps in on the Michigan front, I'm just. I was struck by your story about just how high those percentages are in the Cal State system of teaching online. And that follows their actions in many ways last year as well. They were one of the first systems to go all online and be very upfront about that. It didn't seem to have as negative repercussions on enrollment as many expected. I'm just curious what you anticipate that looking like and your own theories about how it might play out over the course of the year.

So, you know, we sort of think that in terms of talking to Cal State students, you know, a lot of them have told us that they prefer online instruction because it's just, it's cheaper for them to not have to spend money to, you know, commute to a campus. A lot of them, they tend to have lower income levels than UC students. So it's likely that they are needed to help, you know, have jobs to contribute to the family, household, or maybe they have to do babysitting. But then that creates a whole nother set of issues because all the research shows that online instruction is not as effective. And one of the things that we've heard from faculty is that cheating and academic integrity has really become an issue because there's so much more cheating now with online classes. And the faculty are kind of just wondering what to do about that. So it's going to be. It's a whole interesting set of issues that we want to look at.

That's going to be fascinating to dig in there. David, I want to turn to you, and as you answer about all the COVID storylines that you're following, I'm also curious from your vantage point, a place like the University of Michigan, how they've done during the pandemic, because relative to a lot of other institutions, they had actually invested a lot in online learning and innovation before the pandemic. And so my guess is that they were better positioned to address some of the issues that Teresa just brought up. But I'm curious what you've seen.

Yeah, I think not only were they better positioned, but I think there was a broader push for it earlier last year because the infrastructure was there. So instead of necessarily having to start completely from scratch, you saw faculty who may have been involved in helping set up some of the stuff, or maybe they taught us sample code course or did some stuff, you know, beforehand. And so as it started, as they talked about what to do to go online or to stay in person last year, I think there was more, there was that more of that push right away from faculty who maybe were a little more comfortable than even some of the other schools here in the state where the faculty was like, I don't know how, you know, how am I, how am I going to do, how am I going to do this? How am I going to take this class that I've taught for 15 years and turn it into an online class? What, what is this going to do? How am I going to run discussion, etc. I think, you know, and then kind of broad picture here in Michigan, most of our colleges have some sort form of vaccine mandate. Some are completely everybody who is a student or faculty member. Others are, if you're living on campus, you have to, you have to, to be here, you have to be vaccinated. So there's some, some difference. I haven't heard of them of. Massive push. I think some of that. I was talking to a president at a small school the other day who has a, who has a mandate, who said, we're not getting the pushback on the stuff from students as much as we thought we were, as much as we had last year when we put some stuff in place, because they've been through this. Like, they know, especially some of the students who have been in college. And so they know what it's like to, like, be told, hey, you're stuck in your Dorm room for 10 days or.

Right. And they definitely don't want that.

You gotta, you know, they don't want that or you gotta go or you know, even when it gets out of hand and they're like, okay, now you gotta go home for the rest of the semester. And so I think there's this want, especially among students to be on campus and to be around my friends and to have what we kind of think in our head as traditional college experience that they're willing to put up with some of this stuff because they know kind of what's, they've been through that other stuff and they really didn't like it. And so if they can do something to kind of limit that, they're a little more willing to do that.

Okay, so we are getting into the home stretch here on this episode of Future Years. So I'm just going to do a lightning round here. Michael and I are going to do a lightning round of a, a bunch of quick questions that we would love to get your, your take on on, on your beats and on on a few other stories in, in, in higher Ed. So we're going to do this in four minutes or so. So first, what are some of the other big stories for the fall? What are other themes, topics that you anticipate your, your be focusing on this year beyond perhaps the ones we just talked about? Let's go Molly Teresa and then David very quickly.

So the air settlement that I mentioned earlier that is ending next year. So I think part of this fall is going to be spent looking at what are the ramifications of that and also what kind of progress has been made over the last 20 years.

I'm really interested in looking more at admissions and enrollment capacity, but also I'm really interested in looking at the impact of the absence of the SAT this year. I think early next year we'll be getting better data as to whether that made a difference in encouraging the application and enrollment of more low income students and also the impact that that may have on a greater emphasis on Advanced Placement tests. Even though you don't have SAT anymore, there is now going to be probably a greater emphasis on ap. And will that have the same equity issues that the SAT had?

I think one of the big ones is what we've kind of mentioned already and that's enrollment right here in Michigan. Like in some other places, but particularly in Michigan, we have a number of colleges that are really struggling even before the pandemic. Demographics tell us that we're going to keep going with a smaller and smaller student pool. And so what happens not among Michigan, Michigan State, those schools. But we have a number of regional universities that are really struggling. And so how does enrollment play out there?

It's perfect. I want to stay with the enrollment picture for each of you and just focus in on what the enrollment picture looks like at community colleges in your state, because we know enrollments, particularly from low income and minority populations, declined quite a bit during the pandemic, which was different from past recessions at community colleges. And I'm curious what you all are seeing for the fall.

Yeah, California community college enrollments have declined, and we have just reported a major story about lots of fake bots that are applying to community colleges, probably for financial aid fraud. And so once we sort out that picture, it may be that the enrollment numbers are even lower than we thought.

I think it's much the same. Right. It's down. There's no question about it. And I think that gets into issues of, you know, why it is, when normally, when you're going through tough economic times, you would see an upswing at community colleges. And I think the community college leaders here in Michigan are a little baffled as to why they don't have more students on campus.

Yeah.

So two quick. Two more quick things. First, we keep hearing this is going to be a new normal. Right. In so many parts of our lives, we're never going to work the same, shop the same, and quote, unquote, learn the same. Right. So do you feel like for the schools that you've cover that they're kind of thinking differently about their model when things do go back to some sort of normal? Or do you think whenever things get back from a health perspective that it's going to be higher ed 2019 all over again? David, why don't we start with you and then Teresa and then Molly.

In some ways it's going to be the same. We already see this, right? There are 110,000 people in Michigan Stadium for the first football game. There'll be 110,000 in the football stadium for the second game. Right. That's just not gonna. That's not gonna change, right. That there's tailgates all over the place. You can't walk anywhere in Ann Arbor on game day without an without. So that's gonna say the same. I think where you're gonna see it is some of these smaller regionals. And then the small liberal arts we were talking about is they consolidate some operations and then they think about a college. President told me at a small liberal arts college, you know, he just finished a campaign they raised all the money they normally would, they wanted to raise, and he didn't have to spend 160 days on the road going to California to hold a dinner for alumni to, to shake hands and kiss babies. And he did it all on zoom. And you know what? It worked. And then they. So I think you will see more of that type of stuff going on, of using some of that technology and then targeted strikes at fundraising, enrollment. So the, they might not be an admissions person, might not be on the road every day, but going, you know, I'm just going to, I'm going to go to the big feeder schools and then we'll do the rest virtually.

Great.

Theresa and Maui, quickly.

Yeah, I think that the online capacity is going to be the new normal and it will also dovetail into this enrollment crunch that we're talking about. So everyone is talking about. We are definitely going to ratchet up our online instruction and as David was saying, online everything. And that will help possibly allow campuses to admit and educate more students.

Yeah. I think also to echo what David is saying, we're seeing a lot of, like the IHL board, for instance, most of the trustees zoom into the meeting. They don't show up in person. But in terms of instruction, I would say that Mississippi campuses have effectively gone back to pre pandemic. I was just at Mississippi State yesterday and it was like hordes of students all across the campus.

Fascinating to see how every place swings back differently. Last question as we wrap up really quickly. What's the story that we should all be talking about that we're not? Teresa, let's start with you then, Molly and David.

Well, I'm not sure people aren't talking about this, but one thing I really want to do is take a deep dive, I think, into the K16 pipeline because I keep hearing from faculty members that their college students are coming so underprepared they can't write a grammatically correct sentence or figure out a basic math problem. This starts in K12. And there's pressure in that K12 system to promote students even without them having the skills to. To do so. And it's creating more pressure on colleges to catch them up. So I really want to see, you know, for instance, why the Cal State system, which takes the top 1/3 of students in California, still can only graduate 31% of their students in four years.

David,

that's funny that, Theresa, that you mentioned that that was going to be mine. What is this? Because I hear the same things you do. And I wonder what, what it's going to be like for students coming out of high school now who also have been online and haven't had that in person. And is that going to lower that? Are we going to start to actually see a need for an increase in remedial education at the college level because of the effect of COVID on the high school career?

And, Molly, take us home.

Sure. So I think that the conversations we were having around racial equity and tenure sort of ended too quickly. And I'd like to see us talking more about that.

That's a good list. We're going to have to keep track of all of that on Future you. But for now, David, Molly, Teresa, fascinating conversation. Fascinating to see what you're tracking in the States. And thank you so much for joining us on Future you.

Sam. Sa.