Tyler Thigpen on Self-Directed Learning

Welcome to the Future of Education. And now here's your host, Michael Horn. Welcome to the Future of Education. I'm Michael Horn and you are joining the show where we are dedicated to creating a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential and live lives of purpose. And to help us think through how we get there today, I'm delighted that we have a very special guest. His name is Tyler Thigpen. He is known as the head of schools at the Forest School and Acton Academy in Fayetteville, Georgia. We'll hear more about that shortly. He's also the co founder, executive director at the Self Directed or excuse me, Institute for Self Directed Learning. Gonna hear more about that as well. He guest lectures occasionally at Harvard University. I see him in my, in my neighborhood every once in a while. He's also the academic director at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education. So you wear a lot of hats. Tyler, welcome. Good to see you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you, Michael. Delighted to be here. Happy to have a conversation and yeah. Wearing hats as you. As you do. As well. As we do.

Yeah. Well, as it is. Right. But you also are the author of a. Or co author, I should say of a brand new book, the Playbook for Self Directed Learning. A Leader's Guide to School Transformation and Student Agency. It's out from Rutledge. It's on Amazon. Check it out. We'll drop a link into the show notes and we're going to talk about that as well. I, I have but full caveat. I bought the book, I own it on my Kindle. I have not yet read it. I'm behind. So you're going to teach me a little bit as we go. But, but where I want to start with you actually Tyler, is with, with the Forest School and, and Acton Academy because I'll just say like when I first heard about the Forest School and Acton Academy, I was like, this is the coolest mashup I have ever heard of in my entire life. It's like outdoors, which I'm strong believer in getting out into nature and then the personalization and aspects of owning your own learning that Acton Academy is known for. And for those that don't know, Acton Academy is a network loosely held I guess of micro schools. Several hundred around the world at this point use technology to help learners sort of follow the hero's journey as they progress through each year. But I want to hear it from you, like what is this school all about? I have been dying to get down there. I have not seen it in person. I want to know how you blend technology and personalization of an act in school and forest school. Like that sounds magical and maybe mythical.

I love that. The. My answer may surprise you, actually. So what I really love about forest schools around the world, and there are a subset of folks, families, caregivers, educators, you know, who've built and, and create these schools. You know, the love and engagement with the outdoors. A lot of, you know, very hands on, project based, interdisciplinary, transdisciplinary stuff that, you know, kids are, are just engaged. I mean, a lot of forest schools, kids are outside, the vast majority, you know, of the time. Incredible. The reason we, and we have, we share a lot of commonality with those schools. So, you know, being outside. In fact, our learners designed our school and they did an architecture quest like four or five years ago and it got built, we moved. We've been in a year and a month. It's incredible. And it includes massively large windows which were very expensive. It includes a courtyard around which the school sits. This was all choices of the kids and they're spending a massive chunk of their time outside every day and learning in nature. And then we exist in a really interesting town where we have connectivity to walking trails and a forest. We're right next to the forest, but we're actually not a forest school. We founded in a town that was called Pinewood Forest and it was right next to the largest movie studios in the United States, Pinewood Studios. It's now called Trilith, the largest movie studios in the world. And by that point, you know, we had already had the name for school, so we didn't change our name to be Trilis, but we are in this really interesting place that is kind of a hub for creators, makers and storytellers. So the mythical component, the mysterious component, is definitely there because of being in the ecosystem of innovation and storytelling. Interestingly, US Soccer just moved its headquarters five minutes down the road from us. So that's providing a really fascinating, you know, sports and competition component as well. But yeah, if you were to mesh up the storytelling, the love of outdoors, definitely the transdisciplinary, you know, projects and interdisciplinary, the choice, the hands on learning. That is very much our vibe and very much in line with the Acton Academy model where kids, you know, the goal is that each person who enters our doors will find a calling that will change the world. And similar to forest schools, we have guides, you know, rather than teachers, and there's no homework. And we have studios instead of classrooms. And you can go at your own pace and it's mixed stages. And so in that way it really is kind of mythical and magical. And honestly when folks visit us, Michael and I do hope you come at some point. When folks visit, one of the most frequent comments we hear and I feel it on a day to day basis is they feel like I can breathe here. You know, it's not a sort of super rigid, high stakes environment. There's a lot of like learning to live together, going on a lot of exploratory play, a lot of passion projects. And because it's self paced and mastery based, you know, it's very learner driven. So it's not top down where you, where the kids feel like they're on edge, just waiting on the, you know, the adults to tell them what to do. So it's a, it's a cool vibe. You know, nothing's perfect but, but it's, it's really, it's really beautiful and it's a labor of love for me because my kids have been there. I've got four kids, my oldest daughters aged out. My three boys are still there, one of them's a senior so you know, I get to hug their necks when I go on campus.

So it goes all the way through high school. Give us sort of the tale of the tape you mentioned us. Soccer is nearby so give us the stats if you will for the school. When, when was it founded, uh, how many students, how many guides, you know, sort of the picture of what, of, of what we're talking about.

Yep. So the Forest School and Acton Academy founded in 2018 with 31 learners today and that was grades roughly 2 through 8. And today we are 162 learners. We are at capacity, uh, that's pre K3 through grade 12. And so we've graduated a number of alumni know out into now the marketplace as well as colleges and universities. And it's diverse by design so we're trying to maximize economic, racial, age, gender, religion, school background and learning differences. Diversity. We want to show that self record learning works for all kids and staff. We have about 16 full time staff there and then we during COVID launched the four school online which has kids from three out of four US time zones. Kenya, Uganda, Costa Rica, China, Mexico. My head of schools in Thailand that's about 50 learners and it's middle and high school and it's the most geographically diverse school I've ever been a part of. It is super cool to have the learners empathize with one another and the cultures and the different value systems and challenges and opportunities that they're all navigating. So those are our two schools. And then like you said, we have the institute, and that's sort of our version of scale, to be honest. You know, a lot of leaders in our space, when they think about scale, they think about more schools and more kids. But for us, we think about research, we think about leadership training, educator training, we think about sector change initiatives and consulting, you know, to really push against the ocean and help move the sector more towards, you know, learner student agency. Very cool.

Okay, let me ask this question then. How did you choose to be an ACT in school when you all started up? How was that choice made?

Yeah, we. It's interesting. My background is actually a traditional district. I taught in Georgia's largest public high school for a number of years and was a leader there. I co founded a charter school that is nature focused. We was built off the idea of Jimber Reed, Richard Lou's last child in the woods. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, he was founded off that idea, you know, so, I mean, that really should have been called a forest school as well. But it's Chattahoochee Hill Charter school, a great K8 environment in South Atlanta that's still thriving today. And then I worked at a few independent schools. Mount Vernon in north Atlanta, and then the Forest school. But when we were collaborating, really, Michael the. With the leaders of a new development, you know, down here in the great state of Georgia, we still got a lot of space and some, you know, developments that are happening. And so we really build a trust building relationship with some leaders here. And they really wanted a school that would fit the neighborhood. And so I started just pro bono consulting with them to help them think through options. You know, district options, charter charter options, independent school options. I just so happen to have children that I was looking for a high school for. And so the stars kind of aligned and we, you know, I was working at Transcend, a national nonprofit at the time and was familiar with a lot of different options and models, you know, public and private, to consider. And so I just brought all the models to the table with this group. And, you know, they're not steeped in education. So they asked me what's my opinion. You know, the district option was great. We have a great relationship with the district here, but it's just going to take a long time. And they weren't really open to, you know, a new version of that in the, in the ecosystem charter. You know, the charter constraints I'm very familiar with. We just didn't feel that we'd be able to be as innovative as we wanted to be. And so we went with independent because of nimbleness and because we were going to have a public purpose and be a nonprofit. We thought that was a good speed and could be appropriately innovative for the kind of people we wanted to attract to the neighborhood. And, and we went with Acton. When I heard Jeff and Laura Sandifer, the founders, say on their video, we believe that every child is a genius and can change the world. I was like, I think that too. I wonder what their school model is like. And so I did a deep dive. And they're just lovely people in the network is awesome people and a lot of parent entrepreneurs who have skin in the game with kids in their schools. And you know, early on, Jeff and Lara said, they said, you know, we feel like we figured out about 15% of this learning model and we feel like the founders and the network are going to figure out the other 85%. And I really took them seriously and I was like, this is a place to, you know, join as well as play. And so I pitched that to the town developers and showed them some of the videos and talked about my vision for it. And, and they, they cut a check, you know, for our founding funders that first morning.

Amazing, amazing. A few different directions I want to go. But let me start with this high school, because, because when a lot of folks talk about the micro school movement, broadly speaking, high school's where a lot of people sort of, I don't know if squeamish is the right word, but like, they get, they're not sure it's going to grow into that. Here you have a high school, send your kids, you know, you're sending your kids through it, right? And I think the criticism, you know it probably as well as I do, right. That, that bundle of other things, right, that creates the high school experience, Is that something kids really want to forego for a smaller environment that's more bespoke, perhaps, in, in all definitions of that word. How have you thought about that? What have you learned? What have you seen in terms of high school and micro school?

It's a great point, Michael. And obviously a ton of your work is connected to like that handshake right between the high schools and, and the next life's next steps. And high school is my bag of donuts. That's been the vast majority of my career. I worked, I'm actually an ordained minister. I worked with high schoolers as a full time minister for years before I moved into education, and then I taught at Georgia's largest public high school, served as high school principal. And so most of the bulk of my experience was with the high school model in general. And so it was less fearful to me. A lot of the microschool founders that I'm familiar with, they just have less connectivity to it, and there's so much to learn. It feels a little bit overwhelming. Not. Not so for me. It felt very empowering for me. And, and I could see in the even very innovative high schools I had led that were teacher centric before, I saw some of the gaps and flaws and ways in which to, like, kind of really change it out. So I felt, you know, bullish about that, you know, in terms of what's being offered. You're right. I mean, it's a trade off. And for some families, you know, it's not. It's not, it's not worth it to move into a smaller environment. You know, for some learners, it's not worth it. They want the friends, you know, they want Friday Night Lights. I mean, I mean, American football is a social institution in our nation, especially the south in Georgia, but we're actually part of a sports league where our, our learners can actually participate in American football with neighboring schools. Because we don't have a team, and because we're learner led, we say to kids when they have an idea, we're like, all right, if you want to start something, you got to get a critical mass of people to help do it with you. And then you've got to have a parent volunteer who can help. And that's how we got our boys basketball program started. Last night, we literally had our parent player end of season scrimmage. I'm happy to say that we won the parents by three.

Hanging on. You're hanging on. Yeah.

My son did block me like two or three times during the night, though, so I was humbled. And then, you know, our girls volleyball team got started that way. An environmental club gets started that way. Dungeons and Dragons club gets started that way. And frankly, I'm okay with those programs even dying over time because it is learner led. I mean, if the learners lose a will for it, you know, we'll. We'll move on. And then the other thing I've noticed in, you know, in independent schools and working with them, and not just independent, but, but also public schools, millennial parents these days, you know, tend to, instead of, you know, paying for a larger chunk of tuition so that the school has and offers all the services they want to be able to do with their funds what they want to be able to do. And we're all a carte. Yeah, a la carte. Right. So. So the fact that we have a core tuition that covers our operations and then they can, you know, bespoke choose what they want to do, they seem to like that, that model, you know, at least for now. So that's kind of how we're overcoming it, you know, but that's where we're at.

Very cool. What, what is the tuition, out of curiosity, because that's always been a hallmark of Acton, is affordable also?

It is. Right now it's 12, 9, $12,900 for the year, which if you look at, I mean, Atlanta has a very competitive independent school market that is very reasonable. And what's more than that is that more than covers the cost of our operations. Most independent schools in the United States, year after year, have increased the rates of tuition over and above the rate of inflation. And so it's priced a lot of families out. We have sliding scale because we're economically diverse. We make use of our state's funding program, it's a tax credit program to be able to raise funds for lower income families to provide financially aid for financial based, you know, scholarships for them. And that, that really works well for us. And we don't have, Michael, an annual fund, which, you know, it was a learning moment for me when I moved into the independent school sector at one point. You know, it's just a common thing for a lot of private schools to have an annual fund and raise money over and above tuition. We don't have one and God willing, we never will. You know, that's my commitment. So.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because an annual fund can be quite exclusionary to some of those families that cannot afford. Right above and beyond. So it makes sense. Let me ask this question then. You lead the Institute for Self Directed Learning. Your new book, the Playbook for Self Directed Learning. Self directed learning is a big part of the act in Model as well, building learners who are self directed over time. How do you like, tell us about how that journey is? Do you, you know, of, of, of helping learners take ownership over what they, you know, what and how they learn and so forth. And where's the autonomy and where the, where, where are the guardrails and scaffolds, perhaps?

Yeah, great question. So the way we define it is self directed learning is happening when learners are. It's not alone. It's not learners sort of off in a cave.

Doing this is not autodidact by yourself.

Okay, Totally, totally. Which would be a legit critique, know, self directed learning. But it's, it's when they're in the context of a community of peers, you know, trained educators and caring adults, but they have a ton of choice. They get to choose the process, the content, the skills, the learning pathways, you know, the outcomes of learning. And, and they're doing it in service of finding a calling, you know, that will change the world. And, and what we've been trying to do is study that pathway. So we, we do have a, through our institute, we have a peer reviewed study that our head of research, Dr. Caleb Collier, he's got a PhD in self directed learning he put out that describes four phases of this, the pathway of a self directed learner. The first phase, you know, very familiar to all of us. Just, just building the desire for learning, you know, making sure that kids feel like they belong, they are safe, they're having their core needs met and that they see relevance in their learning, you know, which is not to be taken, you know, for granted by any stretch. But that's just phase one. You know, phase two is when learners start to go into advanced player mode by instead of choosing to do something easy and you know, just amusing, they will choose to do something challenging. So instead of, you know, watching Netflix on the phone or talking with their friends, they're going to choose to do a challenging task where they have to learn and they experience the learning pit, you know, know and, you know, hitting that brick wall and feeling that frustration. That's phase two. We call it resourcefulness. The, the third phase we call initiative, which is where learners are, are now not just starting to, you know, solve problems, they're actually finding problems, you know, and they're seeking them out and they're making their plans or setting goals. They've got a structured process for, you know, setting their goals. We, at our school, we use smart goals and whoop goals, you know, wish outcome, obstacle path, a great, a great protocol for goal setting. And that's, that's initiative. But then that's not it either. Phase four, and this is, you know, ninja mode, this is per, it's persist, right? It's where regardless of whatever struggle comes their way, they're going to be resilient, they're going to overcome it and nothing's going to stop them from learning, you know, and so we care a lot about that pathway, we talk about that pathway a lot. We invite learners to consider where they are on that pathway. We Invite parents and caregivers to consider where they believe they are on that pathway and their children. And then we think through like what are the different guide moves, educator moves, mentor moves at each one of those phases. But that's the end goal. And typically Michael, I mean, as you would imagine, when we share that pathway with education leaders across the U.S. i mean, they very much resonate. Oh yeah, that's what we're trying to do. You know, regardless of the subject, they all want to get there.

Yeah, that makes sense. I, I'm curious. My observation of a lot of the Actons that I've been in is it's a really neat blend of self direction on the knowledge or foundational knowledge, maybe put it through the technology and then in pursuit of these bigger goals and the projects and sort of the, the larger arc of, of the year. And it does a really good job of balancing, like for each kid, some of the things that maybe people would worry about. Right. Of Michael's only going to study underwater basket weaving, which doesn't have a lot of, you know, outside applicability. How. What have you learned about some of those questions in the institute? And then let's start there and then maybe we can transition into the book.

Well, we've learned about how to systematize that for sure. I think, you know, which for us and other actons and I think other competency based schools who hold similar approaches, you know, it, it is making a very transparent process even at the beginning of each year to say, okay, what are the skills, knowledge and competencies that the learner is going to encounter and strive to master over the course of the year? You know, the way we do it is we present that to the parents, caregivers and learners at the beginning of the year and ask for their feedback. Say, is this right? You know, and then what do we want to add, subtract or change and then that. And then what are your goals in terms of pacing for finishing that. Right. And then. And then let them, let them go. And then as guys, we hold them, hold them to that. So we keep the onus on the learner. So it's not our timeframe, it's not even our goals. We're just the coach. Yeah, yeah, facilitators. And then, you know, you'll have some parents who care a ton about not just the foundational skills, but even bulking that up even more and making sure that the foundational skills are super strong. And then you have the opposite end. You have some parents and caregivers and learners who are like, yeah, we don't, we don't really value that as much. And, and then we want more exploratory components or we want more electives, you know, and the cool thing about having a guide instead of a teacher is you can facilitate that instead of, you know, direct instruction. It's. It's managing the quality of learning through multiple channels. You know, I think in the young ages, they're still heavier on direct instruction. You know, we happen to have, for ages 3, 4, 5 and 6, we're in a. They're in a. It's a Montessori environment, which definitely includes, you know, some direct instruction, but some letting go over time. Our second, third grade is still pretty heavy direct instruction. I think we found that to be crucial. And then when it starts to get into grades four and above, we've learned that's when you can really wean learners off of that direct instruction. But what's so important is making sure our guides and staff know different facilitation protocols to help learners, you know, reflect and self assessment and then making sure the learners grow in their own ability to assess and self assess their own learning and then their peers learning as well. Without that, that's kind of a missing piece for all this. And they can be just sort of adrift and not know what they're learning, what they have learned, what they need.

To learn, where they're at makes a ton of sense. And sort of the gradual release, if you will, through the ages so that they can have more agency and choice because they know more of what's out there also makes a sense, you know. Makes sense, I suppose. I'm curious. Last question before we transition to the book, I promise. But I'm super curious to ask you this. When I hear people talk about direct instruction, I think a lot of the mental model they have is one teacher, 30 students. I'm telling you the information. My observation to your point is in a Montessori classroom, direct instruction is absolutely happening. But it's like one on one, one on three, one on four. Occasionally, you know, we do certain lessons, right. That involve everyone, but it's, it's like a much more varied direct instruction. Let me show you. Now you try with me here. Now you do. Right. Sort of release. And that when your students get older, as you just described, they're still sort of getting direct instruction in the sense of like from computers or, you know, like. Right. Like, it's not like they're not lear content or engaging with, with a demonstration of how to do this. Thing that I think is important and I'm trying to learn. And so it sort of like gives lie, I think, to one of the weird dichotomies we've constructed in education. I'm. I'm. You can tell me I'm crazy and I'm wrong, but I'm just sort of curious. Your take on. On. On that framing.

I, I totally agree, Michael. I think it's a great observation to, to me, when I think about where direct instruction can go wrong is. Is when the teacher structures it such that the teacher really is the sage on the stage, you know, and that the answer, the content, the expertise, the assessment, whatever has to come from that individual, you know, and so it's all.

Dependent on that person now.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rather than, you know, the. The teacher is facilitating, you know, facilitating the learning. And I was actually with a group of superintendents, principals in. In Ohio last week. We were talking about this, and I just sort of off the cuff mentioned the fact that, like, what I've observed and what I have done myself. So I'm confessing here as a teacher, I mean, like, we can. We can get addicted to, you know, the dopamine rush of explaining something to a kid and them getting it and us being. Feeling good about ourselves, you know, and be like, yes, like, thank God my.

The magic moment is cool. I help facilitate that.

Yeah. My existence is. Is. Is worthwhile because I explained it to them, you know, rather than letting them, you know, productively struggle and wrestle with it and helpfully differentiate ourselves. And I am using a term there from family systems theory, self differentiation, which I think can be really helpful here, where the teacher appreciates the fact that, like, the job of the learner is to learn and that cannot be forced, you know, and to help support and create the conditions, the inspiration, the incentives, you know, the structures, the milestones, the celebrations, all that. But. But that ultimately it's a win not because the learner got it, because we explained it, but the learner got it because they came to it on their own, because you cannot take that away from them, you know, and, you know, I. My parents. I love my parents. I grew up with a lot of. A lot of. A lot of commands, you know, a lot of a lot of direct instruction. And it came from an unbelievably great place. But it wasn't until I was outside of that environment, you know, as a. As an adult, as a professional, where I started to appreciate the benefits and the power of coming to things on your own, discovering them on your own. You know, people are so, in my opinion, I mean there's so we all have thoughts, you know, we all have feelings, we all have a will and plans that come from a beautiful, beautiful place. And so structuring the learning such that it really appreciates those things and creates space for them to be explored and developed. It's just the ways, the way direct instruction. If it's only that, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't provide for a lot of the plan making that a young person be doing. It doesn't plan, it doesn't allow for a lot of the like sense making and feelings working through the feelings, you know, that, that I think learner centered schools are really latching onto.

Very cool. Okay, let's turn to you the book now, the Playbook for self Directed Learning Leaders Guide to School Transformation and Student Agency. Why did you write the book? What are you hoping comes out of it? And I should, I should mention it's not just you. Caleb is a co author who we mentioned, Amber Bryant, Brittany Tolles. It's the four of you who've come together to do this work.

Yeah, and that's an important point, Michael. Those are dear friends also parents of learners at the school. Two white men, two black women who we've been working together for the last seven years and we, we all bring our different backgrounds to this work and you know, love our community and together have sort of tried to with our team broadly, you know, figure out what works, what doesn't work. And we have, we have pivoted so many times, you know, and so this is our attempt at sort of capturing, you know, some of that learning here. And, and so yeah, in terms of the book itself, you know, what would be, what would be helpful to riff on?

Well, I, so I, I know that each chapter sort of lays out strategies, right. For how to put these principles in place in a school. I guess I would love to hear, you know, is, is this something that can really be done in an existing school or do they need to like have tabular know rasa to create something blank slate? Like how do you think about that? Because that, that strikes me as.

One.

Of the biggest questions facing the country right now is do we actually believe this will come from the emergence of like a vast diverse array of, of new schooling types? Right. Or do we think we can actually move districts and existing schools to, to embrace the principles you're talking about?

Yeah, I'd love to. I'll address that last point last. I think the, do you familiar with the book teach Like a champion from. Yes, of course.

Yeah. Douglam off. Yep.

Massive, you know, for the listeners, a massive, you know, power powerful book at a moment in history in education that, that a lot of really empowered and inspired a lot of educators and, and you know, I've read it and had used some of the techniques and, and really I use the word techniques because it was, that it was a book of techniques. It was like a playbook that you could take it off. I'm going to do this. And it was to really manage a classroom to get learners focused on a discrete standard. And I, I do think the techniques did an effective job of that. I think we see our book as a companion to that for a different purpose. It's techniques for learner centeredness. It's what are the techniques adults can do to create responsibly the space for the feelings, the plans and the thoughts for learners to take hold of their own learning. So that's why we did it. And you're asking what we hope to do with the book now Maybe all of us will have rose colored glasses. We, we do think it's possible. And so we speak in the book to both public and private school leaders and educators, you know, public school leaders who are, and educators who are dealing with the constraints of a standards based environment and private school leaders who are dealing with the expectations of parents and caregivers, you know, for, you know, life's next steps, some, you know, college prep environments. And then of course there's that, that both of those things exist sometimes in, in the other sphere as well. You know, the process that we've explored and have discovered and continue to work with districts on is we have identified sort of principles that are true about learner led classrooms and learner led schools versus teacher led classrooms and teacher led schools. And that, that's actually the different outline of our book. And we kind of. And their examples are like in a learner led school the learners are typically doing the choosing, whereas in a teacher led school the teachers typically are choosing things and there's a whole host of things they're choosing. Another example is in a learner led school, learners are doing the assessing for the most part or they're being assessed by experts or by peers. Whereas in a teacher led school, the teachers really are the ones who are doing the assessing. And so it's a different set of spectra along those lines. But what we've done with districts, which is more of a, it's not a let's blow up the model and start something new. It's like, let's slowly work towards this is we've gotten with teachers in public school settings, in teacher centric settings, and we've taught the principals and we've inspired them to take a lesson that they're going to do next week, you know, and say, okay, now that you know these principles and here's the lesson that you have in front of you. What's one thing you can do to make it more learner led, you know, or what's two things you can do along these spectra? And which one did you choose and why? And then share that out and they share it and now go try it. And they'll go try it. And you know, usually it goes really well because learners are amazing. And you know, when they're given the choice and voice and agency, they, they will take it. And, and even when they make poor choices, if the natural consequences are in place, they'll learn from that. And so teachers come back and they'll share about that experience. And of course, if they're sharing about this experience in the context of other educators, then, you know, they're sort of stealing ideas shamelessly from one another, which is great. And then, you know, teachers and, and then it's rinse and repeat, do it again. And so teachers will take another lesson and just make that a little bit more learner led. And as they do that over the course of a year or so, really we've done partnerships for multiple years at districts. They get better and they sort of as a default, they're building their muscles at making their classrooms or their departments even more learner led, even more learner centered, where kids have even more agency. And then at some point we'll stop them and we'll ask them, okay, what are the barriers? You know, like what, what are you encountering perceived or real that is stopping you from doing more? And of course, they're incredible at naming barriers. The teachers are. And when you have leadership that's on board, leaders will listen very, very careful to those barriers. And then they'll get together and they'll say, all right, what can we, you know, what barriers can we completely remove? Which ones can we tweak to make it easier? And then which ones can we just, we gotta keep. But we can help them navigate around. And, and then the leaders and teachers have that conversation. And in our experience, when, when a district does that, the ball really can move, move forward, but it's playing the long game. You know, it's having a lot of courage. You know, it's having some Skills in change management, for sure. And so a real deep belief in the trajectory. So it's not, it's not for everybody because not everybody's there yet. But our book aims to be that thing that one can take off the shelf, open up and be like, okay, this week I'm gonna do this.

And so super practical, super down to earth. Maybe as we wrap up, are there places district schools, independent schools, but existing schools that you're like excited about that you'd say, you know, check out this place because they're doing this one thing that's really cool and you wouldn't believe it if, if, if I didn't tell you it existed.

Yeah, absolutely. So we worked for years with Pike County Public schools in Georgia, rural district. Former superintendent Mike Duncan, who's state superintendent of the year, he was there for, you know, over a decade, which. That's a, that's a part of it, you know, that's right.

You need continuity. So we're all swimming toward this goal. Y.

Right. You know, they, they took a stance around, you know, moving their educators towards the role of a guide in a public setting, you know, unapologetically, enthusiastically. I'm thinking about, there's another school north of Atlanta, North Hall High School. It has this math department led by this guy called Jason, who has got a real switched on team there. And you know, one example of how they've made it learner led is this one teacher at high school level math decided to, at the beginning of a unit, give all the kids in that classroom all the standards for that unit and give them all the resources that they would need, both human and material and online and say, all right, you've got six weeks. I'll be here if you need me. Go and let them prove mastery in their own way. And sure enough, they did, you know, and now he's doing it over and over. But those are the kind of, I think, examples I'd highlight. But, but again, what's true about those is you've got leadership that's on board and, and stay and hanging around. You know, you've got courage because there's pushback always, you know, when change happens and, and you've just got folks who have rolled up their sleeves and are committed, you know, for the long, the long, the long haul.

Well, and that is a worthwhile goal. We will leave it there. But Tyler, thanks so much for coming on. Congrats on the book, the Playbook for Self Directed Learning. A Leader's Guide to School Transformation and Student Agency. Something Worth aspiring to. I appreciate the work you're doing on the ground, online at the institute and now with this book. Thanks so much.

Thank you, Michael. Great chatting with you. And all the best. Yeah, you bet.

And for all of you tuning in, we'll be back. Next time on the Future of Education. Sa.