Why Working and Attending College Is Something More Students Should Do

Welcome to the future of education. I'm Michael Horne, joined today by Ali Mason, who is a colleague of mine at Guild Education, and I'm thrilled to have her here. Ali, welcome.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm really excited about this conversation. And before we get into it, why don't you tell folks who end up watching and reading this conversation who you are and a little bit about Ali and sort of where you are right now in all these crazy times.

Yeah. In general. So basically I work with you at Guild Education. I'm super excited to be joining the Communications NPR team as an associate communication manager. So very excited about this journey. I've worked at Guild for almost three years. Come March, so just in a week or two, it'll be my three year anniversary. And so I've had an interesting journey, starting out as an education coach, continuing on to a continuing education coach, lead specialist, as well as now transitioning into this communications role.

We may get into a little bit at the end about the coaching function because as you know, I'm super passionate about that area. But I want to start talking about your story because I think it's such an interesting one. And I'd love you to take us back to when you were first applying to college yourself and your own journey of how you thought about where to go to college. And then obviously you were working while you were in college. And if you knew that up front and how you thought about balancing that.

Yeah. So to go back there to think about applying for schools, it's an interesting time to be about 16, 17 years old and think about college and think about knowing what you want to do for the rest of your life. Clearly, I was not thinking what I'm doing now is nothing that I thought I would be doing then. However, I really just kind of. It was always ingrained that college should be an option. And I knew that I did not have support when it comes to parental support when it came to applying for schools. So a lot of that work I did on my own. I ended up applying to five schools and luckily I got into all of the colleges that I applied for at the time. I briefly went to high school in Denver, which I live here now for two years, and then ended up going back to Chicago, where I graduated high school. And during that time, I did apply to one school that was in Denver, which is CU Denver, and I ended up picking that school for not the best reasons to come back to Colorado, but everything works out how it should. And that's the school that I chose. And so the journey was interesting because one of the biggest reasons I did choose to go is because I thought I would have in state tuition because I had been gone for less than a year, being naive and not knowing how to really navigate the college system and what that's like. I didn't have a coach to help me. Where I didn't. I thought, oh, I'd have in state tuition, I can get financial aid. And a week before I was supposed to come out, I realized that I was going to be having to having to pay out of state tuition and not going to be able to have help with financial aid. So that was a huge, like, shocker. I'm 18 years old. I don't want to be in Connecticut, where we were at the time with my family. And I was super determined to make that journey as well, as I did have a lot of support from my mom to make that happen. And so I did decide to move out. One of the things I had to agree to is that I had to work in order to go to school. I attended CU Denver for a semester because I was not able to finish paying my tuition because the tuition was so expensive. And at that time I was having support from my mom. All of those things didn't work out how they were, how it had planned to. And so it was a decision, am I going to be able to continue going to school? And so that was really hard because it was ingrained where it's like, you have to go to college. If you want to do this, you have to go to college. And so the idea where I would not be able to go to school was really hard to let that sink in. During that time, I was on a campus where there was three schools. So I was on a campus. There's CU Denver, there was the Community College of Denver as well as Metro State University. So at that time, what I decided to do, because also in order to stay in the dorms, you have to be enrolled in school. I was actually able to transfer to the Community College of Denver and take, I think I took one or two classes at first so that I could stay in school and continue on my education. So that was hard. When you're 18 and you want to go to a university and being like, oh, no, I have to go to community college.

Did you feel like you were stepping down in some sense or sacrificing something that, like, had been held dear to you when, when, when you made that move, like, from just from an emotional.

Standpoint, yeah, 100% I did feel that way. It kind of was like I've worked so hard to go to a university and then not being able to do that, it's more, I think, honestly, like an E where it's like I should be at a university, not a community college. However, I feel like life happens and things happen for a reason where that was a great transition for me. To be honest, my first semester of college, I didn't do as well as I should have because I think I didn't have the right tools, not the right support. It's your first year. You don't take things as seriously. Where having to transition to a community college was a great thing for me, not taking four classes at a time for right away was also a really good thing for me. And managing having to work and go to school, the whole taking some online courses was a new thing as well. So it actually really put things in perspective. It slowed me down and made me realize what was really important and that I really did want to get a degree. I didn't want to just go to college. I actually wanted to accomplish something.

That's incredibly important. Clarification, I think. Were you taking less than four classes at the community college because you were working at the same time and so it was a attending part time or was that a policy of the community college at the time?

It was strictly financial reasons is why I decided to do that. So it's something that I could afford at the time.

Yeah, I, I mean personally I think more students ought to take fewer than four classes in general. I wish more colleges had that model because I just think from a cognitive load balancing life perspective at age 18, like if you really want to go deep in something, one to two classes is probably the most you ought to be allowed to take and go super deep. Maybe it's just a month or two and then you can move on to the next thing. So it's not like delaying the timeline. But I guess that's a topic for another day perhaps.

But I'm curious to totally agree with that though.

Yeah, no. So I'm curious to back up though, just a bit, which is. So originally when you applied to university, you didn't think you were going to do it while working. It sounds like that was something that was thrust on you almost and you were sort of in your mind having this, if you will, stereotypical view of what college might have been for you. Is that right?

100% there was. I did not plan on working right away. I planned on having more of like, the traditional college experience. And it was completely thrown at me because once I want something, I want something. So it's like my mind was made up. I was going to Denver for school, and if I had to work, that was the deal, and I was going to make that happen.

So let's dig into. So now you're at community college, you're working simultaneously, building up, I guess, you know, some ability to pay. Right. So that you can graduate and get that degree, as you said. What's that like, that balancing act of working and being a student.

Working and being a student is hard, especially when you're so young. I don't think that as students, we're really prepared when we're so young to manage it all. So it's a struggle. And what I've told my students in the past is like, I really believe that you have to have a reason on why you're doing it and why it's important to you for you to keep going. Because there's so many times when you're distracted, not just by work, but by personal life and friends and family situations where it's so easy to give up. And for me, it was like, I was so determined to want to make something of myself and accomplish a goal where I could move on and open up opportunities where, like, was there times where I was like, I can't do this. Yes. But then that's when I continued to remind myself why, why, Why I was doing it and why it's important to me.

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. And for you, what was that? Was it just, I need a degree because it's important or what? Like, speak. Speak a little bit more to that. Why that you were able to hold.

Yeah, absolutely. So at the time, I was only working. When I first started out, I was only working part time. And then the following year, I went into working full time and just knowing that what it's like to not have a degree and get the type of jobs that you get. I was fortunate. I was working in student housing, and I moved up into a manager role within that. Over the time working there, however, it still puts. It's like, do I want to make $12 an hour for the rest of my life? Like, is this what I want? I know I have bigger dreams. I know that there is things that I wanted to accomplish myself where in order for me to do that and support myself, I couldn't just make a minimum wage.

Yeah, it's super interesting. So that. But you working was able to show you, hey, If I take this track, these are the sorts of opportunities that'll be open for me. And this is what it means from a dollars and cents perspective. And then you're living, you're paying not just tuition, but housing as part of that. And so you could. I mean, it sounds like it kind of clarified for you this degree is actually going to open doors.

Absolutely, 100%. And I think it made me take things so much. It made me take school so much more seriously when I was putting so much effort and work into it versus knowing like whatever, like I can just not work it. It really put real life in perspective.

Yeah. And that's. That's phenomenal. So take us through the story then, through graduation and how you got there, because then I think it'll segue into the topic that I think is the opinion you formed that I really want to dig into.

Yeah. So it took me longer to graduate from undergrad. I started school when I was 18 and I graduated, I think when I was 25. So seven years of my life, I was an undergrad. That's a really long time. But because of the situations that I was in where I wasn't able to afford to go to school full time the entire time, I also changed my major, I think at least four times. Where I finally had to get, I got onto on a direction in a pathway that made sense for me. I started studying African American Studies and Women's studies and I found such a passion and a love for what I was studying where it made me a lot more engaged and motivated to stay in the program. And then within that, I kept like. I continued. I was able to not only stay in school and afford that, but I was able to get a really good job working for Westward Newspaper, that's local here in Denver, and transition into that. And because I was working full time before that and was able to show my skills, I was able to show that I can manage going to school. At the same time, I think that's honestly what got me to getting that job at that time was being able to show that because most people that don't have a college degree that probably aren't going to school might not have that same opportunity. But I fully, like wholeheartedly believe that's honestly why I was able to have the opportunity at Guild in the first place is because I was still working. I actually, as much as I don't recommend taking a full load of school, I got to the point where I did get financial aid and I ended up taking six classes. My Last term and I started my new job at Gill that same term. Highly do not recommend that. I got through it and it was actually a really phenomenal experience to know how much you can really push yourself and manage and still be successful at the same time.

Wow, that's amazing. So you're obviously able to reflect now on that experience. You were a coach for a couple years there helping other students who are where working adult learners go through school. So not too dissimilar from what you went through, but you came away. We were talking a few weeks ago and you said to me, I think everyone should work while they're in college, which is not the viewpoint I think a lot of Americans hold. So I'd love you to just double click on that.

Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely not, but when I think of the economy that we're in currently, it's unrealistic for most people not even be able to work and go to school at this point. And I do think there's so many states skills that you can gain while working and going to school. I've had friends that have gone the traditional route that will graduate and it's so hard for them to have a job because they don't have any work experience. And so not only was I able to learn certain skills within school, a lot of what I learned, especially in my grad program, I was able to apply to the work I was currently doing, which was huge because not only did it help me within my school situation, it helped me at work and it really like in my last role, I give so much credit to my grad program as well as being in that position to being successful in my grad program. So there's so much overlap when you think of the skills that you can develop while working and going to school and just being able to manage it all. It's not the easy route to go. But I think because of it, it has made me gain so many more skills and stamina and resilience that I don't think I would have had if I went the traditional route.

Makes a ton of sense when you say it, frankly that way. And I, I didn't have the experience you did, you know, I had the stereotypical college experience, I guess, but I was doing 40, 50 hours a week at the student newspaper during it. So in some ways I actually can. Can relate. Although I wish I could only taking two classes at a time because I did pretty poorly in a lot of classes because I wasn't actually really a student. So I think it's fascinating to hear you reflect on that. I'm curious, like, what's it going to take, I guess, for people to wake up in your mind? Like when you talk to individuals, right? And friends, community, your parental friends, right, like whomever. How do you, I mean, do you sense that people are starting to wake up to this or how do we have the conversation to help people see that this isn't a liability, it's actually a virtue in this experience.

That's a great question. I honestly think that it comes down to where there's a. There's some people that have the choice and then there's some people that don't have the choice, like myself, to choose if I want to work and go to school. I would say that if you have certain goals for yourself and you know that you want to work within a certain industry, you want to do something like that. Whatever you can do besides just going to school is going to give you a lot more skills. Like, I don't know if you've heard this before, but it's like just because you have a degree does not mean that you are smart and you're going to be successful in a job. And so I think that whatever you can do, like you saying, like you put so many hours in your news, in the newspaper at your school, I'm sure that contributed so much to like how you were successful longer in life. And so whatever, if you don't get paid or if you do get paid, I just think that it will benefit your career in the long run of having that. Like if I, if I did not have, if I just went to school, I don't, I would have never worked at Westward. I don't think I would have, like, who knows what could have happened. I think the pathway would have been a lot differently versus me being able to gain skills while learning at school. Also in my job that contributes to both just has made me, I think, more well rounded at the end, at the end of the day. And I think a lot of people can benefit from that. And so I tell my students, like, yes, it's so hard. However, this will not just help you. Like you going to school might not just help you with your long term goals, it'll help you with what you're currently doing in life right now.

Do your students understand that like, you know, emotionally and intellectually, right? Like, do they, does that resonate with them or do they view it as, gosh, I have to do both at the same time?

I think when I can put it in perspective for Them and they are in that right, like mind frame. Yes. I have had the opportunity to work with a lot of students have already gone through a program and are either going to a new one or wanting to transfer. So they kind of already have that feeling of what it's like to go to school and work full time. And so they're already feeling that momentum of understanding how it's benefited them. So I think the students that I've been able to talk to within the past year and a half totally see that.

That's great. And I just think it's interesting because obviously you were, you know, an 18 year old thrust in a very different circumstance because of things outside of your control largely. Right. And you enter that experience. A lot of the folks we work with at Guild are obviously they're working. They might not have a college degree, they might have some college, they might not even have a high school diploma in some cases. And so they sort of enter knowing that. But there's a whole swath of Americans, as you said, that have a choice around this. And I think changing the narrative that this, this is actually not just like a way you can go to school, but a really smart way to go to school is important. How do we sort of get that out in the cultural zeitgeist?

I honestly, I think it's just changing the narrative of how you look at school. Like when I was in high school, the whole like the dream is sold to you. It's like you're going to go to this four year school and you can be on campus and you have all this campus life and the traditional route is the way to go. You want to go to this great university that's super expensive and that's how you're going to get this quality education that will set you up for life. And I highly disagree because no, just going to like this perfect traditional route doesn't give you the actual real life adult skills to make it. I also think that some of the smaller, less expensive universities have been like my when I ended up graduating from Metro State University, which was on that same small campus that I was on. And it's a much smaller school and it's a lot less expensive. I had the best professors I've ever had and I ended up graduating from University of Denver through my grad program. And I still think of my undergrad professors as life changing. And so I think that viewing college as more as an experience of gaining skills and learning versus I think people are very sold on the traditional fun way of going to college. And I think that you can gain a lot of great experiences. But I also think that we need to make it more realistic for our students. Where it's intimidating for someone to tell you, you should go to this big school and it's $30,000 a year and you should take out all these student loans, and this is like the only way to go. And it's not. And that can be intimidating and scary where some people will be scared from going to school, or it'll be hard for them to speak up and say, I can't afford it. Like, that's not the lifestyle or the privilege that I have when I think of going to school. And so I think it needs to be more conversations of all the different options and pathways on how to navigate higher education. There's not just one way, and I think it should just be talked more about, of the benefit of being able to work and go to school and what that does for someone in the long run. Like, for me, it's sometimes it's like, I think I can handle a lot of work and I actually really enjoy it, thankfully, versus, like, if I didn't have the experience of having to work and go to school at the same time.

That's phenomenal. And also clear advice, I think, for high schools about how they have to change the advice that they're sharing. And I found it interesting, actually. I've been talking to some parents, friends of mine, you know, former classmates of mine in various schools. And it is interesting that message is getting out because they are sitting there saying, I don't know if the traditional college is the pathway that I want my kid to go. And these are folks that have the choice, right, to be super clear. And if they're asking the questions, I think it is dripping into that narrative. So that's hopefully a positive. I guess the question I'm curious about is that starts to mean some changes in high school. I bet you'd also have some changes for college to make this the more, you know, normal set of options. Right as well. What would those look like from your perspective?

Oh, my goodness, 100%. If I could have been a Guild student, that would have changed my life. So, like, what Guild is doing as a company is life changing and innovative in the direction that we need to go in. And I say that because I was going, yes, I was going to a smaller school, but it was still a lot more traditional. So most of my class, a lot of my classes were on campus. That's another reason why it took me longer to graduate. Because if I'm working full time and I have a job that really doesn't care that I'm in school, how it's so hard to manage and be like and be able to go to class and work and create that schedule. Because most of the classes are during the day. Because it's a more traditional pathway of higher education where the biggest thing is we need to. I think the pandemic honestly has forced colleges and universities to look at online education differently and take it a lot more seriously and prioritize it. Where it's very possible to have a lot more flexible options so that people can get a degree. A lot of students that I talked to that have dropped out of school, dropped out of school because they could not manage a schedule of being able to go to campus and work a full time job. There was when I started at Guild, I had a lot more support from my manager, KCP at the time where they knew I was taking six classes. I was taking, I think two on campus, four online. I can't remember because it was a while ago, but they gave me the permission where I was able to leave and on my lunch I would go to class and then I would come back and work and make sure I was getting all of my hours in. And they were a lot more flexible. But I really think that universities and colleges need to be a lot more flexible with students and schedules and have a lot more online education available. And that's what I love about Guild is that that's why students are able to do it. If it was just on campus, we would not. Guild probably wouldn't exist. And so online education and quality online education needs to be prioritized.

No, it's a phenomenal set of points. Frankly. I'm learning a lot in this conversation, which is helpful. I love this, I guess last set of reflections, which is let's get into the coaching piece because you played that role in the lives of students so much. Because that's the other piece of what Guild is doing, which is not just giving students the opportunities to attend really good online institutions, of which there are many more than existed, say a decade ago. Which is great. And to your point, by the way, I totally agree. The pandemic is hopefully changing the narrative around the importance of online in campus. And so we'll see where that goes. But I think that was an important barrier to smash through. But the other one that I think is, you know, I was just on a webinar where I was saying online learning when it's Done well, it's a team sport. It's not just like one faculty member working with, you know, a set of learners and coaches, in my mind are critical. So can you just, you know, speak to that? It doesn't have to be in the Guild context, but just, you know, broadly. What should this coaching function look like and why is it so critical?

Absolutely. I feel like I wish wholeheartedly that I had a coach to support me in making the decision on what school and what program I should go into. Like, I ended up going to three different colleges undergrad. I changed my major four times. If I had that support, I feel like I. My. I think my journey would have been different. And so I hope like to do talk about Guild. But I wholeheartedly believe that the reason why Guild is so successful is because of our coaching and strengthening our coaching methods where it's not just helping you get into school, but it's maintaining and having that support system. When you are working full time and then you have school and a lot of people have kids, all of those things. It's really hard if you're around a lot of people that are not also in school and doing what you're doing and not feeling like you have that support. And it's really easy to give up. And so one thing I've always like, I luckily had the support of my mom who was like, stay in school, which was great, but a lot of people don't have that. And I think it's not just why you want to do it, but it's also, do you have the support of people around you to make sure that you get through it? And so the coaching, I think is so important and special, to be honest, to have that type of support from being somewhat like, I didn't have that. And I just, I'm so thankful and grateful that people do can have that now because it really is so close to why people are being like our. Our students are successful in getting through program.

Such an important question. I lied. I want. I have a couple like lightning round questions, but I'll make one. One observation first based off. Off of something you said, which is there's so many students. Like college for everyone is hard. There are moments where you feel like, I can't do this. It stinks. Like, I had moments. Some in the classroom, many, frankly outside the classroom, where it was like, I don't want to be here right now. I want like, I want to leave. Right. And because of your family support or the narrative you're told or whatever else if you believe I belong here, then you stick through it. And if you believe I'm not sure I do belong here and you don't have that support, a lot of people drop out and that's where the imposter syndrome and all those things rear their head that we all experience. But some of the support telling them otherwise or that it's normal, they leave. So I just. It's highlighting something you just said. But the lightning round, I guess, is what are the. Give us a couple tricks of the trade, if you will, as a coach of like, you know, you're helping someone figure out the major that's right for them or the career path that's right for them. What are a couple resources or things that you have them do to figure out, like, who am I?

Yeah, it's been. Being a coach has been an interesting journey, especially within a startup company where I kind of have the opportunity to like, mold my coaching on how I want it to be, which has been interesting. And it's really just been with trial and error, one thing. So when I talk to my students, I really dive deep into their education background and their experience with that. That's huge. So I can figure out, like, where are they now and how confident do they feel? So if there. There's a lot. It's like, did you just graduate high school or did you drop out, for example? I've talked to lots of students that dropped out where they went the traditional route and didn't feel like it was the place for them and they ended up giving up. And so there's a lot of reasons to, like, I'm such a history person anyways. I like to understand the past, understand the present, and that's highly important. The biggest important things is motivation and goals. If you can't tell me why this is important to you, I'm someone that's very transparent and I push back a lot on my students to tell them. I'm like, yes, it's super great you have this benefit, but tell me, how do you want this degree to affect your life? Why are you doing this? Tell me the personal and professional reasons on why this is important to you. A lot of times it can be the personal things. It's because I want to be able to support my family. I want to buy a house. I want to motivate my kids to go to school because I can't tell them to go to school if I don't. Those are the real, real deep reasons on why it's important. And then we talk about Goals. Okay, so tell me. It's like, obviously there's lots of programs to choose from. And I really think it's like, okay, so where do you, what do you want to see yourself doing in the future? And what I try to do when I think of recommending a program is I match what their goals are for career, why they're doing it, and seeing like, what is the best pathway to get them there. And so that's kind of my strategy on determining and recommending programs. And then not only do I do that, but I push my students because if I recommend a program, people like, yeah, great, that sounds good to me. And I'm like, I love that it sounds good to you, but tell me why it sounds good to you. Because if they're able to tell me back, recite back to me how it aligns to their goals and motivation and why it makes sense, I feel a lot confident for them to move forward.

It makes a ton of sense. It's frankly music to my ears. I literally wrote a piece for Forbes this morning where I said, too often we say students are enrolling because they want to switch careers or they want more money or they want to reskill. But it's like, that's a very one dimensional, flat reason. And so to have someone like you that can push, like, oh, it's because like, you need to make more money for your family or else.

Right, exactly.

That's a. Right. That's a very different reason from like, I mean, who doesn't want to make more money?

Exactly. We all do.

Right. So. But if you understand that circumstance and that deeper why I just. Anyway, so much of what you're saying is resonating, but it's teaching me a lot in terms of putting some meat in the bone. So I'm appreciative of that.

Yeah, of course, to be honest, like, the reason why I can speak to it is because I've lived it. And it's like, I know for a fact you like, just wanting a better job or something will not get you there. That's not what's going to keep you up late at night, light at night to finish a class. When you hate a professor, that's not what's going to keep you going. It's other really more intentional things that will get you through it.

Ali, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks everyone for tuning in and watching this conversation. I've learned a lot and I suspect everyone who watches it will as well. So. Ali, thank you.

Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me yeah.

And we'll be back. Next time on the Future of Education.

Awesome.