Will Graduate Schools Face a Reckoning in 2020?

Hey, Michael. So we're a few weeks into our own kids doing remote schooling. I think it's much improved over last spring for us. So how are things going for you in Boston?

Hey, Jeff. First, good to see you over Zoom. And this was actually a momentous week for us. We launched our own micro school for our girls and three other families in our backyard. And so I'll leave it to you how that might go, but it's actually been pretty awesome after a rocky first.

So.

And I'll add on your end, you know, you didn't say it, but the book promotion seems to be going pretty well for you, which I'm thrilled about. And of course, we spent the last episode talking about your book on admissions, but that was about undergraduate admissions, and it raises the natural question of what about graduate admissions? And we're going to talk about just that today with David Poole from the University of Miami and Jillian Baer from Liaison.

This episode of Future youe is brought

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I'm Michael Horn.

And I'm Jeff Salingo. And welcome to Future youe. College admissions has been upended by the pandemic, as we discussed on the last episode, but we focused that episode exclusively on traditional eight students going from high school to college. So today we want to focus on the topic similar of critical importance to many, and that's graduate admissions. After all, the graduate degree has become the new bachelor's degree in many respects. Now, graduate enrollment was on a wild upswing over the last couple of decades, and at many institutions, it was the new offering they were becoming increasingly dependent on, especially online degrees. But it was also changing dramatically before the pandemic, too. Graduate enrollments were beginning to slow, and at some institutions, they're seeing big declines before the chaos of 2020. So today we're going to explore what innovations might save graduate education, which programs will come out ahead when the smoke of 2020 clears. Joining us today to talk about that evolution are David Poole, admissions director for the University of Miami College of Engineering, and Gillian Baer from Liaison, which helps colleges manage their graduate admissions process. Welcome to both of you.

Thank you.

Thanks so much.

So we want to start with a question that actually used to be a standard one on Future youe. But Michael, for some reason, we got away from it when the pandemic started. So before we dive in, I want to go back to that question that we used to start with. And how did each of you come to work in higher education, because I know, Gillian, until a couple of months ago, you were at Ohio State and got your start in broadcast television. So I think that's a really interesting pathway into. Into higher ed. So let's start with you and then go to David.

Absolutely. Thanks so much, Jeff. And David and I were actually talking earlier about, you know, not a lot of undergraduates seek out higher education or no. Or are able to major in that. So it's always an interesting story how so many of us land in this field. And for me, as you mentioned, I had a whole previous career to this pathway. I was working in Los Angeles and broadcast television and ultimately decided it wasn't for me and sort of went back to the last time. I really enjoyed what I was doing, which took me back to my alma mater at Elon University in North Carolina, Went to visit, saw some old friends and faculty, and actually ended up having lunch with the dean of admissions there, who was a good friend of mine and a mentor when I was there as an undergraduate, and looked at him across the table and said, you know, you get to meet with families all day long and invite them to campus and tell them how great college is and talk about Elon all day. You know, how do you get that job? And he had mentioned to me, he said that, you know, there's a degree you can get. You can go and study higher education and student affairs. And that really put me on that path towards where I am now. And so I started looking at graduate programs, landed at, you know, Ohio State University, getting my master's, and have been working there about the last 10 years in various admissions offices, and just recently left the university side to join Liaison International to really expand the impact. Right. And to now work with dozens of universities across the country to help break down barriers and increase their admissions efficiency and all the things I really care about and I've devoted to specific universities in the past, so that's sort of my path to how I got to where I am.

Great.

And, David, briefly, how did you get to where you are at Miami?

It's really interesting that both Gillian and I both have a communications background. I didn't study to go into higher education either. Upon graduation, I worked in New York City representing and doing marketing for television stations, moved to Miami to actually work for a TV station, and then reconnected, actually, with a classmate who worked at the University of Miami. And it was through that conversation where I realized that I could apply my marketing skills into a field that I really was passionate about. I'm A first generational student. I'm the first person to graduate with a college degree in my family. And I really wanted to be able to make an impact on students lives because that made a big difference in my life and my family's life. And so that's actually how I initially got into admissions. And all these years later, that really has always been my focus is really about how do you continue to get more people to get an education? Because without education you really don't have the key to open up to a brighter future.

Sal, it's a great story. And I'm struck by how many actually Jeff on our podcast have been the first in their family to graduate from college. Just like you, Dave. David, I'm curious, you know, Jeff gave the wind up sort of nationally of how we've seen graduate enrollments before the pandemic, but how has the pandemic affected graduate enrollment in Miami's engineering program specifically? And just give us the context of how they were doing before 2020 as well.

So as Jeff mentioned earlier, there had been an exponential growth in graduate enrollment, especially within stem. With over over a million international students in the US the majority of them do come into the United States to study STEM, either at the undergraduate or graduate level. At the University of Miami, which is a private institution, we have a large percentage of international students and always have at the undergraduate level about 14%. And at the graduate level it has been over 60% of our students. So it has always been a mainstay. So obviously Covid totally upended our world in terms of being able to get students to be able to come into the country with the fact that the borders were shut down, embassies was shut down, students that were in country, whether or not they stayed for their education. So it was a matter of sort of running to the ground. I have to say that I felt fortunate in that I worked at an institution that really has been working with crisis management for a very long time. So just kind of an offshoot of that is obviously in South Florida, which is in sort of the target zone for tropical weather. We always have to be ready for hurricanes. And so we have a very extensive plan in terms of prices, management and getting ready for storm, although it was weather related. So we really were able to take that foundation and apply it to our higher education landscape for our programs, both at the undergraduate and graduate level. So there were already teams set up both in terms of administratively overall, but also within our admissions office. But we were also doing things along the way because since the administration in Washington, D.C. also plays a major impact in terms of the enrollment of students. We were already making changes in terms of our recruitment efforts. So we were doing things already to reach out to more domestic students. And actually in 2017, I started my conversations with Liaison in terms of having a new application. You know, most students find universities as a result of a website. So we enhanced our website and we especially did that, especially with COVID We did a lot more, especially with social media, because today's generation really relies on social media for all their information. They don't really listen to adults, they listen to their peers. So having our students take over social media to be able to explain our programs, especially at the graduate level, was a big thing. A lot of testimonials along the way, but it was also being able to use the Engineering cast, which for most people won't mean anything, but it's basically a platform that allows us to be able to reach out to students rather than waiting for them to contact me via email or through a phone call. They're able to go out and look at institutions and to, for lack of a word, to be able to shop for us. And so we get to know who is interested in our program actually before they apply. And so being on EngineeringCast actually already helped us in that way. We just continue to build upon that. When the pandemic started, and it really was helpful, I'm thankful to say. We're getting ready this weekend to run our final numbers for the fall. Our numbers were increasing as a result of being on that platform. And even though the pandemic came, our Ms. Populations actually increased. We put in some new programs to enroll our current graduates. So we put out a special program to entice our students who thought they were going out into the workforce and no longer were going to be able to do that. So we did that. But it definitely impacted our PhD populations because those students did differ population wise in terms of being able to come to the United States.

So, Gillian, we heard from David there, kind of the situation at Miami. What are you hearing more nationally now about the enrollment challenges facing graduate programs?

Sure. Well, I think for years we've really seen a change in the graduate student population and David sort of hit on this a little bit. But when we think about a lot of alternative credentialing that exists out there for non traditional students, right, Traditional Masters of Science, Master of Arts, PhD programs, or even our more professional schools like the PharmD, the MD, things like that, are quickly finding that there are a lot of students out there that maybe don't want to invest that time or don't have the ability to invest that time or that financial strain, and instead are looking for certificates and quick ways to gain the skills that they need to be more marketable in the workforce. And so those programs that are finding that they can be more creative and offer programs that meet the students where they're at are the ones that are going to be successful. And I think David made a great example of that. The way they're creating new programs in this time of COVID for their own undergraduate students to maintain enrollment is a great revenue generator for their program. And so I think even though we have been seeing the graduate enrollment numbers go up, certainly in specific fields now, that with COVID happening, we always see that sort of current events mirrors a lot of the enrollment that we see in graduate education, particularly in times of economic downturn. We have historically always seen an increase in graduate enrollment for people who may be leaving the workforce and seeking additional credentials. So that next time that economic downturn comes, maybe it won't be me. Right. I've got additional credentials. I can seek additional skills. And so we often see that sort of contradictory increase in enrollment when the economy goes down. But CORONA is, I mean, it's a totally different beast. Right. I mean, I think a lot of people are seeing this and sort of maybe expecting one thing and not really sure what's going to end up happening. And so the best way we can meet the needs of today's 2020 reality, I think, is by having creativity and partnering, creating communities, sharing best practices. And that's really a lot of what we do at Liaison is trying to bring people together, learning from other schools that are doing it. Right.

Right.

And how do we get better across the board to benefit our own students and really leveraging that sort of collaborative spirit to make sure that all of our graduate programs succeed and all the students can get the education they're looking for.

Yeah.

That collaboration has been a constant theme, I think, on future you. I'm curious, first Gillian and then David come in right afterwards. But you're talking about how unprecedented the current moment is and how this isn't behaving like past recessions in some ways because the pandemic is so unique. But let's shift to thinking longer term and what you're anticipating that might look like. What's the approach for how schools will be attracting graduate students after the pandemic from your perspective at the moment, Gillian? I'd love to hear your perspective globally first.

Sure. Well, I Think again. The agility of any given graduate program, department and university overall is going to be huge when we think about how do we come out of this and strategically moving forward. The nice thing that's really different about graduate education versus undergrad is it's largely decentralized. So where an undergraduate strategy is usually done at the university level, right across an entire campus, on the graduate or professional side, you typically have a little bit more autonomy. So a college of engineering where David works, or a college of public policy or medicine can often act in their own best interest. More fluid and more agile than maybe an undergraduate major. Right. Doesn't maybe have as much control. So I think in that way it's a good thing because the programs that are able to get creative, be agile, move along with the times, are going to have the ability to do it. And I know in the past we've always seen, again, as a reaction to current events, we're already seeing articles coming out with surge and application for the healthcare field. And so I think those industries that can take advantage of individuals that are feeling that call to action to be a part of that solution and seeking out graduate education in order to be a part of sort of how we come out of this stage and sort of contribute to society in a new way, I think those schools that can take advantage of that and really help educate our students that this won't happen again in our world. Right. I think is going to be critical as well, sort of, when we speak of that specific industry, just to follow

up on what Gillian was saying, it is a decentralized process at the graduate level. So the opportunities that we've had in my position at the University of Miami really has been able to reach out to industry partners that we have to our alumni to talk about what types of skill sets in education they're thinking about. People are going to need not only just post Covid, but in terms of the next five to 10 years. And it really is going to be in terms of incorporating a lot of the things that are within stem. So we're really looking at new ways to not only deliver programs, but also in terms of topics. So we've moved to a lot of topic education as well. So it is not necessarily getting that degree, although it is about content and having the education to be able to apply it in the marketplace. It's also being able to go out to a community because we are decentralized. I mean, the one thing that's been great about being part of the engineering cast is that I have colleagues now all over the country and all over the world that I can ask. And we've created a community as a result of that. And that was starting before COVID but it really accelerated that. So I think in many ways, Covid is going to provide additional tools, especially in graduate recruitment and admission, because we have more of a community that's coming together. But we're also looking at ways that we can tap into what the marketplace needs and then provide it in an agile way using technology. Because now we see that people aren't necessarily afraid of using technology for their education at a much higher level than we even thought was possible.

Yeah, that modality shift, I think, is it was already happening in graduate education. Obviously it accelerates here. I'm just curious to follow up, David, one thing you mentioned also was some of the changing tactics you were doing even before the pandemic around international students. International students, obviously, for US Universities getting hit really hard in this. But as you mentioned, there's a lot about the political cycle that impacts that more generally. There was broadening competition worldwide. How are you thinking about recruitment of international students? And what do you think that's going to look like long term?

So I guess part of that is that one of our major shifts that we did a number of years ago was really in terms of creating partnerships with institutions around the world, with other higher education institutions. So we were able to really reach out to them when the pandemic happened in terms of creating pathways for students actually to start at an institution in another country and then transfer over to us into graduate education. But it's also looking at how can we be more flexible as a community to work together. So, for instance, the Trump administration in July came out with an order that basically was going to ban all international students to be able to study, especially in an online environment. Well, the community came together very quickly in a way that I had never seen in all my years in higher education. So 70 institutions led by MIT and Harvard, along with industry, including Google and Microsoft, came together and came down hard. Why? Because international students contribute over $44 billion to the US economy. And so that order came down on July 6, and on July 14 it was rescinded. But we're looking at something even today. And so even earlier this morning, exchanging conversations with people, because the administration just came out this morning saying that Beginning this weekend, TikTok and WeChat will be banned in terms of being able to download in the United States. For me, in communications, especially for students in China, their platforms come out of WeChat so that is a problematic way. So we have to continue to find ways. And I think more than ever, it's going to be looking back to our alumni networks. And I think that is something that higher education, although it's been affiliated many times because of athletics, I think there's going to be a much greater affiliation from an academic side of the house.

That's an interesting way of looking at things in terms of. You mean in terms of using them potentially as continuing students overall for continuing education?

Yes, we're moving definitely. We have been doing that before COVID into lifelong education. So rather than just having a student come for a bachelor's degree or a master's degree, is that our alumni really are going to be welcomed back for lifelong education? And that doesn't mean coming back to our campus, but it's also then reaching out through their networks of the companies that they work for, whether they're in a large corporation or they're in their own company, in terms of entrepreneurship and innovation, in terms of spreading that in a much different way and using that modality flexibility that I think that we have, looking at that as an additional way to create new ways to be able to bring education out to the world. The world will still look to the United States even in this pandemic. The number of people that are still looking to us for higher education, even though the borders are still closed, especially with EducationUSA. The requests are coming in fast and furious. And I've done other podcasts similar to this one in terms of reaching out to international students all over the world who want an education in the United States.

So, Gillian, I think that brings up a good segue into, as we end this segment about how professional graduate education programs are going to shift overall. Right. Where are the opportunities, do you believe? Right. We know, for example, that new economies are going to be emerging from this crisis in everything from logistics to healthcare, while other parts of the economy might disappear or large parts of them might disappear in terms of. Mostly in terms of your travel and hospitality and things like that. So how can universities change their programs in time to attract new students? Because that's been always an issue in higher education, just the amount of planning it takes for new programs. And, you know, as both you and David pointed out, graduate programs in particular are less institutionalized because they're mostly at the school level. And at most institutions, they're kind of responsible for their own, their own budgets and things like that. So there's a lot more entrepreneurial spirit, I think. But where are the opportunities in your mind?

Absolutely. And I think again, we've already hit on the concept of community and of partnerships within higher education. I mean, certainly at the graduate level, a college of engineering like at the University of Miami might have more in common with another graduate education department than with other departments within their own university. So building these communities where people can converse any of our centralized application systems that we offer out of liaison, we really are in the spirit of how do we get all of the engineering schools as an example together to really heighten the ability for each individual college to find the right fit student. And I think that third party partnership consideration is something that we're going to see a lot more of. Right. So relying on the ability to outsource some of the things that are really challenging for schools these days with their expectation of budget cuts and having to furlough employees. And it's always been a common theme in higher education for as long as I've been in it of doing more with less. Right has always been our motto. And now more than ever, I think that schools are being pushed to increase the enrollment in this time of 2020, while also having to cut their own budget. And so that's where a lot of the outsourcing is incredibly beneficial with us. A lot of the schools that we partner with, we take the entire application processing out of hands and do that on behalf of our schools. And we do a lot of top end marketing, top of the funnel work so that we can get more applicants to their applications as well. But we've had schools report back as much as a 90%, 70 to 90% reduction in time to decision getting out to applicants, as well as around a 90 to 95% reduction in manual administrative application processing tasks. And so when you think of an admissions office that can offload the paper pushing right to a third party partner, it allows them to then create more meaningful relationships. And what that allows is an increase in yield because they're doing individual outreach and really communicating with these students because they have the time to do it right. Imagine every scanning of every document, matching documents to applications, and the fact that we're there on weekends and holidays and during time of COVID where we have people still going into work and making sure that this work is getting done on behalf of our schools that we partner with. And that's a huge benefit right to our schools that can then focus on that nurturing that relationship piece with incoming students. And we see schools just recently we had someone report an increase in yield from 40% two years ago to 70% for fall 2020. Right. When we're seeing enrollment go down, their yield is actually higher because their staff was able to do more work in matriculating those students without having to do all the paper pushing and the back end processing.

Well, Julian and David, thank you so much for joining us today. Talk about this really critical issue around graduate admissions, because I don't think we tend to talk about it, and it clearly has been an engine that has kept many colleges and universities, and not just major research universities who we used to think of as the graduate engines of this country, but colleges of all kinds and all sizes over the last couple of years. So thank you very much for joining us and we're going to be right back on FutureU.

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Welcome back to Future youe. After a great conversation with Gillian and David and Jeff, I'm gonna go right to you on this one because we're talking about the difference between undergraduate and graduate admissions. David made the point that graduate admissions far more decentralized than undergraduate admissions, which are really a topic at the university leadership. How do you think about this? Because you obviously reported on the undergraduate admissions process, but you've been a longtime observer of graduate admissions as well. How do you think about the main differences and the potential that that yields for universities?

Well, I think the interesting thing is this idea of my school, which has always been the entrepreneurial part, I think, as I said near the end there with graduate admissions. But one of the things that David brought up that I think offers opportunities at the undergraduate level is this idea of, as he called it, the Amazon shopping cart. Or maybe he told me that earlier on and didn't say it during the show necessarily. But this idea where colleges can shop and students can shop for colleges and colleges can shop for students, and I mentioned this at the end of my book around this idea of a national clearinghouse where colleges put out their priorities and what they're looking for and students put out their priorities and what they're looking for colleges and we do more of a matching system that might be more efficient, which requires, of course, colleges to cooperate more than they are at the undergraduate level, but clearly they're doing that at the graduate level as well.

Yeah, it's interesting, Jeff, because just briefly on that, we always lament that universities often are in a race to just look like each other and that would actually offer a way for them to differentiate, also by having different program mix, even at the undergraduate level, frankly, and better look for matches for them as opposed to competing all on the same yardstick, if you will. It brings up the question, I think, of international students as well that they talked about, because there's obviously over the last many years was a big race to bring in international students as a way to save a lot of programs, to grow a lot of graduate programs, particularly in the STEM areas, as you heard, big hit, you know, not just before COVID like that was tapering over the last few years since the Trump administration has come in.

Really?

What's your perspective on that sort of being the savior again, or how schools ought to even think about that pool of students?

Yeah, and I don't think it's going to disappear. I think particularly for those institutions that had large international pipelines anyway. I think two things are going to have to happen coming out of this pandemic. One is pressing harder on online and in country delivery, which many institutions were doing anyway. So how do we operate international programs where we're not necessarily relying on students to come to campus in the US for lengthy periods of time? Could we offer more hybrid, more online, more in country things? The other thing that is clear coming out of this, because the relations between the US And China, particularly right now, just keep seeming to get worse by the week. And colleges and universities, if you look at the numbers, have heavily relied on Chinese undergraduate and graduate students. And what's becoming clear is that we're going to have to diversify, just like we're trying to diversify the undergraduate and graduate population in the US we're going to have to do that at the international level as well, and that there are pockets of students around the world that colleges and universities have not necessarily gone after that. I think they're going to have to increasingly recruit coming out of this.

Yeah, I think it's a good point. Two quick thoughts on it. I think you're right. Online and hybrid grow as a way to reach students overseas and so forth. We've seen that recently with NYU, with a partnership with WeWork. I'm not sure you're supposed to publicly say wework anymore, but there they are with a partnership there, which we've talked about as a future for online education to sort of improve how it creates community and serves students. University of Arizona talking a lot about their hubs around the world and how they can mix online programs into there. So we're certainly seeing that. I think my skepticism, a little bit of relying too much on international students is where you left it with the fact that China is going to be increasingly hard pressed, I think, to be that source, even if you see some thawing in relations between the countries. I think what we're seeing right now with the TikTok saga, if you will, is that China and the US Are going to crack down even on serving students online when they don't come to the US Itself. Like that's not a hard thing to do for these countries. There really are two separate Internets out there, if you will. And so I think that is going to be a reality that institutions have to plan around and diversify is certainly going to be the name of the game. It also talks about the fact that we have new economies emerging in essence during this time as well, new skill sets, things like that, beyond sort of the two Internet phenomenon that I just talked about. I know you've been thinking a lot about this and how that impacts program mix and the like.

And I think that's one of the diversity of programs that we don't think enough about. I think again, just like we've relied on certain countries in the US for our international students, we've also relied on certain programs to drive graduate enrollments, business and STEM in particular. It was interesting. Michael. I've been working on a paper with our mutual friend Matt Singelman at Burning Glass Technologies. One of the things that he has talked about in this paper that will be coming out in a couple of weeks is that there are going to be distinct new economies emerging from this crisis that are really going to provide opportunities for institutions to step in to meet learners. He's talking about the idea of the readiness economy, how ill prepared we have been for global disruption, not just in health care, but also obviously climate change that we're seeing in California. The remote economy. Really probably the biggest influential legacy of this pandemic is the remote economy. And what are the jobs that are going to be kind of created out of that? And again, how can colleges serve that? The logistics economy? How many of us are ordering things online that we used to go buy in stores? And how are they getting to places. And then finally, something that was obviously happening before the pandemic is the automated economy. How is the pandemic going to accelerate some of those changes, the readiness, remote logistics and automated economy. Hopefully we'll be able to talk about this more on the podcast later this season. But those are things that I think that colleges and universities need to think about. Where's the economy going and how do we better serve that?

Yeah. And I think that speaks to the program mixes change that they're going to have to be making. Right. And there's going to have to be shorter programs, certificate programs, programs that can be readily mixed in different ways to create degrees, if you will, that stack into something so that the market recognizes it. And that, to me, I think, is sort of the big shifts. And then so I think from that, as we wrap up, Jeff, there's the our own shift we're trying to get better about doing these segments at the end of the episode.

Right.

So hot take. What are you reading or listening to or watching right now as you roll through your book tour?

So I started watching, actually I finished it this week, something that just premiered on Netflix called Challenger the final flight. J.J. abrams was the famous producer. Yeah, a famous producer was the executive producer of it. I've always had a fascination with Challenger, not just because we're all Gen Xers and we kind of remember that day in January of 1986, but it also happened on my 13th birthday. So I've always had kind of this obsession, I guess, with the story. It was a fascinating documentary for anybody just interested in the background, because the amount of footage that they had of the training for that flight. But they also go back to the history of the shuttle program. To me, there's two interesting aspects to it that I think are of relevance to higher education. The first is around kind of the PR aspect of it. So we, you know, NASA really created the Teacher in Space program for Christa McAuliffe. And then they're also going to do journalists in space because people were losing interest in the space program and they were really worried about public perception, but public support for it. And it goes back to what we've talked about. And we're going to have this on a future episode with Paul LeBlanc talking about kind of the PR aspect that higher education has to be in right now to get more public support. And the second thing was around the culture of NASA and really this idea that nothing could go wrong. And I think the same thing was the culture in higher education. Higher education would continue to grow, obviously. And even the culture we see now of all these institutions that are coming under a lot of fire right now for bringing students back or the Big Ten now starting football again, right, that, oh, we're better than everybody else. We know what we're doing. And clearly that's what NASA thought too, right? They thought they knew what they were doing. They were ignoring some of their contractors and others, and they ended up having two tragedies, Columbia a couple of years later or a decade later because of that. So I think it's a great watch for those two things in particular, the culture and the PR piece. Also. I just think the footage and the storytelling was fascinating. How about you, Michael?

Can I be a fanboy for a moment? I'm excited because you were on one of our favorite podcasts, Amwriting, and it's in my queue. I haven't listened to it yet, but it's in my queue and I'm excited to listen to how you did in that conversation, Jeff.

Well, I can't wait for you to listen to it. There's a little bit of overlap with our podcast, but it's mostly about the writing process. So I'm looking forward to you too.

Well, obviously as a writer, I'll be excited to pick up more tips from you during that. And for all of you listening, thank you so much for tuning in. And if something struck a chord during this episode, please send us your questions, your comments, even your complaints and suggestions, of course, for topics or guests to futureyou podcastmail.com or send us a message on Facebook or Twitter. Thanks so much for joining us.

Hey folks, Michael Horn here.

Hope you enjoyed the latest episode of Future You. And just a reminder to please subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform. And if you like the podcast, rate us so that others can find us and find out about the good conversations that we're having here. As always, thanks so much for listening.