How a Fortune 500 brand transformed its marketing measurement | Casey Johnson (PPG) | Coffee Breaks

We are going to jump in. We've only got 30 minutes and for those who have been to past marketing measurement coffee breaks before we try to keep this really efficient. Try to make it a really good use of yalls time. We will not do any pitching of recast or any sort of selling at all. Really just want to focus on making this a super engaging conversation. And I am really excited today to have Casey Johnson with us. Casey is a, is a practitioner and so it's hands on the keyboard, feet on the ground, actually doing marketing day to day, thinking about marketing measurement, thinking about how to drive her business forward. And so we're very lucky to have her on today. She does global digital marketing at PPG Industries and we have, I think a really great session today. We're going to talk a lot about what it means to actually put these marketing measurement practices and frameworks into practice in the real world when it's not as easy as it might sound. When someone's, you know, doing like a LinkedIn influencer blog post, which I know I am guilty of and a lot of people on, on this chat have probably seen plenty of people doing so that being said, we are going to jump right into it and let me stop sharing so that we can actually see people's faces here. There we go. So to start, first of all, welcome Kasey. It's great to have you.

Thanks Michael. Good to be here.

To start, maybe you could tell the audience a little bit about PPG Industries because you know, at least the name PPG is maybe not a brand name that everyone here is familiar with.

Sure. So PPG Industries is a eighteen dollar company in revenue every year. We are a global company. We have a presence all over the globe. Like I say, Mark is joining us over from the Netherlands. I've got James here from right here in Pittsburgh with me. And so we're headquartered in Pittsburgh and we've been around for 140 years. We were, let's see, started I think it was 1880 and we've been around ever since. So we have, I believe over eight business units. The one that most people are most familiar with is architectural coding. So PPG is coating company. One type of coating means like paint. Yeah, well, mostly paint.

Paint and other similar products.

Yeah. So we say coating because we also have packaging coating. So at one point recently, I don't know if it's today, but at one point recently, 90% of soda cans were packaged by PPG. And if you've ever had transition lenses in your glasses, that is a coating It's a specialty coating that PPG innovated and created. If you're familiar with wall paint, which is what most folks know us by, you might recognize PPG paint or Glidden or Olympic wood stain here in the US if you're in the Netherlands, like Mark, it might be Sigma. If you're in Mexico, it might be Comex. If you're in Canada, it's Dulut. So a lot of different coatings all around the world.

So this is a complex business, right? There's multiple brands, multiple regions, lots that goes in into this. And I think this is. You definitely have a different background than a lot of people that I talk to who come from, you know, like e commerce background, right? Where it's like we have one product and we sell it online in the US and that's it. And so I'm definitely really excited to learn from you about what are all the challenges that go with operating in this complex environment. How do you actually make this work practically? You have a ton of experience. First question that I want to ask you is, you know, we chatted a little bit about this when we were preparing for the conversation today. You mentioned how in a lot of organizations, the marketing team and the finance team have a very antagonistic relationship. Let's say there's a lot of conflict there. Marketing team thinks that the finance team's always coming in to crack down and reduce their budgets. And the finance team thinks that the marketing team are profligate spendthrifts wasting money on who knows what. But it sounded like you had sort of a better approach to that relationship. I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about how, how that's worked for you and what you think the best practices there are.

Yeah, I hope so. I've learned a lot from content created by engineers, even software developers, where the idea is to start with the end in mind, basically. I'm sure a lot of us have heard that idea. And so you think about one thing that I think about is what are my stakeholders going to need from me at the end of this? As a marketer, I want to create this robust, beautiful, omnichannel marketing media mix that proves the benefit, proves the. Proves the revenue impact of these multimillion dollar investments that we're making. Makes my team look good. Basically. I need to have other teams look at us and think, okay, I may not know all the details that they talked about, but they clearly know what they're doing. I believe them, I trust them. You know, they're they're good to go with finance teams. I often find that marketing teams feel the need to create the perfect presentation, create the perfect model in a vacuum by themselves, maybe with a platform, maybe with a software vendor that they're working, but they want to get everything right and just perfect and then present it to finance. I think it's a better approach to bring finance in from the very beginning and say, we know what, we know what we can do. What do you need to see? And if we build this, and I often create a reporting template before the data is even coming in, I'll create a fake report and I'll say, if I gave you this three months from now, would you believe me? Would you believe that our marketing is this effective? Do these columns show what you need to see? Would this make you want to open up the purse and give me more budget? And I'll try to create an environment where I'm like, look, I'm not married to this. Look, I have no ego. I just want to make sure that this is relevant to you because I want to spend more money. And so we'll have a little laugh, and then they'll get into it. I mean, the finance folks that I've had experience with over the years, they'll tell me, they're like, yeah, I've seen this before. I've heard this before from previous marketers, and I just never understood. Understood it. And I can't prove its worth to their senior finance leaders. So it never goes anywhere. And we get the same budgets every year. So long story short, bring them in with you. Bring your stakeholders in with you. Bring the people who aren't going to believe you. You know who they are, the people who aren't going to believe you. Have a kickoff with them and say, I want to build this report with you. I want to build this marketing media mix with you. Bring them in from the start and then work through it together.

I love this idea. You know, you mentioned, like, hey, I've seen this thing, you know, multiple times, and I never really understand it. Like, what are some examples of that? Of, like, places where you really have to educate the finance team on, hey, this is what this means. This is how we should be thinking about it or modeling it, like, yeah, do you have any good examples or things that you think other marketing practitioners should, like, focus on if they're having this conversation?

Yeah, and I don't think they'll be surprising to anybody on the call. So attribution models are number one, I think. I feel like a lot of finance teams. When you say, hey, we know that paid search didn't create demand, we know that it's capturing demand. They wouldn't have known to search for our brand keyword if we hadn't done all this other work beforehand. And when you say things like that and you're like, look, all of this revenue is being attributed to paid search. But if you cut my display, if you cut commercial, you know, TV commercials, if you cut whatever else, billboards, whatever else you're using, my paid search traffic is going to stagnate and decline. But I can't easily show you the revenue that display is driving. It's a little harder to measure that brand awareness work. Right. That's like the holy grail of marketing at the moment. So talking about last click time decay, partial, you know, blah blah, blah, noting it in the data caveats whenever you're presenting to finance, being upfront about the data that you believe in yourself on the report compared to the data that like, hey, you know, this is the best we've got in 2024, but it's flawed. It's flawed. And we know, you know, we're at the mercy of what our vendor partners can give us or you know, the, the tech that we have currently today.

So I love that answer and especially like sort of talking about when the data is flawed and what the limitations are. Right. I think that that is super important. Right. But I also see it's a place where I think some marketers go wrong because I don't know, maybe they feel nervous and so they're like, oh, I have to say that all of this is the truth and doesn't have any flaws. So that way they both fit. But it actually has the opposite effect where like if you don't talk about the limitations, if you don't, hey, you know, this works well for this thing, but maybe not for this thing, then people actually believe you less and they're more going to be looking for those flaws and they're going to ask you about them and you're not going to have good answers. And it's like actually just setting yourself up for failure.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, think about how, how much finance teams have to caveat their own data, currency exchange rates, you know, inflation. Like if they're looking cross regionally, there's all kinds of controls that they have to deal with. Like they have to do it themselves. Don't be afraid to do it for your own channel. And then another thing to in mind is you're not the only one having to prove your worth out of the business operations is having to prove business cases for their investments. I mean logistics, all of it, they're all vying for more money from finance. So you're just another one, like, don't put too much pressure on yourself. There are other people having just as much trouble as you are proving the return of the budgets that they're asking for.

I love that. I think it is definitely important to put it in context and I think, you know, so this is, I'm curious, like how you think about this or how you think about training up other people on your team. I feel like there's a lot of marketers who don't necessarily have that, like finance MBA excel training. Like how do you get them, how do you help to educate them and bring them along to be able to, you know, make the case for marketing to the finance team, to the executive team? Like, how do you help marketers develop that skill set if they weren't necessarily like trained that way in undergrad?

Yeah, so I wasn't trained that way in undergrad. My degree is actually microbiology and so I switched fields completely. But honestly, it takes a lot of hard shadowing in the trenches. Hey, come watch me while I do this. That's how I learned. I learned everything I know from a manager who we didn't even get along that well. But every single time she was going to put together something for finance, she would call me over and say, this is what we have to do and this is going to be my approach. And so for me, truly it's that hands on, come shadow me while I do this. Talking through it, while we create it, that, that I do with the person, my partner that I work with right now.

Amazing when I change direction a little bit, you know, so PPG has been around for a long time. The business has surely evolved a lot. The practice of marketing has evolved an enormous amount over that time. How do you think about like bringing the organization along when it comes to best practices, specifically around marketing measurement? Right. Like touch based attribution. There's a lot of talk these days about increment. You also mentioned brand awareness. Like what is that process like in this complex organization that has seen so many changes over the years?

Yeah, that's a great question. It is humbling. Before I begin any conversation, I ask around to people who have been here longer than me. I say, hey, look, digital marketing is nothing new. Measurement is nothing new. These questions have been around for decades. What has already been presented in the past Before I got here, I've only been here for three years and you know, 15 years ago there was a digital marketer trying to explain, you know, why they do what they do. So I try to get a lot of. I try to dumpster dive through old files and folders. I try to talk with people who have far more tenure than me. And I say, hey, what's already been presented? Because one of the worst things you can do at a company of this age is come in thinking that you're the first person to do something. And so I try to come in, learn what's already been said, understand why it didn't take, hey, so you presented this, what worked and what would you do differently next time? Like what landed and what didn't. So that's the first thing I try to do. And then from there I typically create my outline, like what I feel I need to educate and I figure out who my audience is going to be for that. I outline the content and then I stress test it against two different groups of people I trust. Small group people who are analytical, people who are going to give me honest feedback, people who aren't going to pull their punches. And I say poke all the holes that you can. And then after that, you know, I feel pretty strong about scheduling the meeting and presenting.

Got it. And I think so how. Trying to think about how I want to phrase this question. Have you started introducing some of these, like, ideas of incrementality and experimentation into the business? And how has that gone? Are people super receptive to it? Are they nervous about it? Like, how have you been able to do that?

Yeah, so one tactic that I try to use a lot is using other people's data. So there are a lot of. We have, have a ton of websites here at ppg. I think. I can't remember what the latest count was, but I think like over 300 websites.

That's a lot of websites. All of our great guest.

Yeah, super. We ran down from 900. Right. So, yeah, yeah, we're integrating. Yeah, exactly. So we're cutting down. We're trying to become one ppg. Right. So while we're doing that, there's tons of tracking gaps. Ga gaps, like things that we're not doing perfectly yet. Right. But our partners, like our retail media partners like the Home Depot or Walmart, they have these wonderful teams that they're using that create data for us. So sometimes I lean on the data that they provide to build early trust because it's kind of like not us versus them, but it's like I can stress test how they do to gauge how it's received here at ppg and then we can kind of model what we create in house to complement what they're already used to. So if a team is already used to the attribution models that the Home Depot and Walmart connect use, then that tells me, okay, I need to, as I'm creating my in house solution, I need to kind of, you know, stick to that, stick to that template.

I think that's really smart. That's a really interesting idea of like not trying to reinvent the wheel, right. And use these external vendors, partners, whatever to help to help you do the work of, you know, convincing. Not, not even necessarily convincing but like people already see that it's valuable and so it's like, let's not reveal, let's bring that. And then we can sort of layer on our own spin on top of that where it's appropriate. Someone else has done the hard work of like the convincing and the initial build out and I think that that's super valuable. Makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, yeah.

So before. So I've got a bunch more questions but also just want to anyone who's listening in, if you have follow up questions or want us to dive into something in particular, please just drop a question. In the chat you just mentioned retail media and I think retail media is, it's a thing that a lot of people are talking a lot about right now. Some brands are just starting to get into it. You know, Wall Street Journal keeps publishing articles about like how it's the big new thing. But I think we all recognize that there's a lot of challenges that go into measuring effectively retail media. Right. There's some people who are like, you're just paying, you know, the retailer for searches that were going to happen anyway. That's not incremental advertising. This has always been a question. But like I think as retail media is growing, like it's becoming more of a question. Given your presence in retail and I imagine presence in retail for a very long time. How do y' all think about that question and like figuring out like how, what is the right amount of retail media? What is our strategy? We'd love to just hear how y' all are approaching.

Yeah. So the conversations that we have with our retail partners, they, they have a lot of the same struggles that we do, a lot of the struggles that they have. You know, they're building their own in house solutions, they're building their own data repositories and Attribution models and all that kind of thing. They tend to, at least with the US partners that I work with, they tend to be far more ahead of the game than in house solutions are. One thing that we're trying to do at PPG is ask our retail partners can we create a new metric? Can we create a propensity to buy metric? Can you look at your users behavioral data if they came in through a sponsored product ad compared to an off site banner on Facebook and tell us were they already about to buy when they saw the sponsored product app? Because if they were then I want to put my money towards.

If you have follow up questions or want us to dive into something in particular, please just drop a question in the chat. You just mentioned retail media and I think retail media is, it's a thing that a lot of people are talking about.

The more awareness, consideration kind of tactic. What I tend to find is a little bit of fear. I think that like we all have over the years, the response is they default to assuming that if we find out that sponsored products the people were already going to buy before they even clicked that image, that we're going to stop spending budget with them, that we're going to remove our sponsored product budget. In reality all we're thinking a lot.

About right now, some brands are just starting to get into it. Wall Street Journal keeps publishing articles about how it's the big new thing. But I think we all want to.

Do is say oh thanks, I didn't know that I'm going to shift that budget into another tactic. So I think it's natural for them to have some fear around, you know. Well, does this mean that everybody's going to cut their sponsored product budget and you know that affects people because then you know, how will the paid search team, how will the sponsored product team over there at the recognize that there's.

A lot of challenges that go into measuring effectively retail media in the department be affected.

But what I try to encourage them and reassure them is I want to spend more and more money with you. I have to prove that it's effective. I have to be driving volume. So if you can design a metric like propensity to buy which helps me assign budget more intelligently, then this is going to be, you know, cake. This is going to be land of milk and honey. You know, if we can get a little deeper into where I should assign my budget to drive the most impact.

Yeah, I love the idea of being able to like work with these partners. I mean PPG I think is probably in a special position where y' all are big enough that like they'll, and they'll pick up the phone when you call, which is a really nice position to be in. But this idea that like you can actually shape what these, you know, media partners do or present or the capabilities that they make available through that partnership, and I think that that's like a really powerful place to be and a thing that I think a lot of marketers, it doesn't even occur to them to like ask or to have those conversations.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot of being, you have to the relationship to a point where you can be like, hey, I'm just going to level with you. I'm trying to do the best marketing I can here. You guys are marketers. They're marketers just like me. They wake up every day and I assume they want to end the day having done something meaningful and nobody wants to go to sleep spending money the same way they did when they woke up and just hoping that it does well. Like when I go to bed at night, I want to know that the decisions I made that day positively impacted the paychecks of the people that I work with and the people, people who depend on me and are depending on this money and you know, their salaries and you know, the company's long term success. So I try to level set with them and be like, hey, I want to be a good marketer. You want to be a good, right.

There's some people who are like, you're just paying, you know, the retailer for searches that were going to happen anyway. That's not incremental advertising. This has always been a question but like, I think as retail media is growing, like it's becoming more of a question. Given your presence in retail and I imagine presence in retail for a very long time. How do y' all think about that question?

And like marketer, if this was your money and you worked at a startup, like I've worked at a startup before with a $30,000 budget and it was really like, if I don't put my money in the right place, this startup is going to fail. So it's like coming at it with that, like, hey, help me out. Let's like one on one, this is just me and you. If this were your money, where would you put it? And just level.

I love that. And I honestly, I think it's, you know, it's in the, the best interest of the media network long term to figure out like, where are these dollars most efficient you know, short term optimization of being like, we're going to trick people into spending money on these things that, you know, these whatever this ad types that don't do anything, like you can get a little bit of cash up front, but that then people are going to flee away from your network and you're not going to make money long term. The reason Google and Facebook are two of the biggest companies in the world is because they drive a lot of business to a lot of companies and like they're, it's because they're good, they work. And so I think, you know, you're totally right that as marketers we can actually help these retail media networks be more successful in the long run by pushing them to incrementally drive our business forward. And like, it can actually, it can feel antagonistic at some times, but it's actually really like in the interest of everyone to figure out how can we actually go and make this work.

Absolutely.

Gage has a great question here about people in the organization potentially having fears about how marketing teams might be grading their own homework work with the metrics that they're putting out. How do you think about that challenge in terms of like, I don't know whether it's giving people additional insight into exactly what the metrics are or how do you avoid or neutralize some of that natural skepticism and healthy skepticism, say like good skepticism. It's good for people to be skeptical, but how do you think about that?

Yeah. So like Gage said, you know, we touched on this a little earlier. Number one, bring in your skeptics from the start. Ask them to help you build the thing that you need to build now. You are going to be, be in that meeting leading the call. Okay. You're going, you are going to set and guide and scope and define and all of that. You are in charge. But you've got to create this groundswell of support so that the, we call it surround sound. So that the surround sound, as everybody's in their little chats and finance teams are chatting and you know, figuring out.

Like how, what is the right amount of retail media? What is our strategy? We'd love to just hear how y' all are approaching.

Yeah. So the conversations that we have with our retail partners, they have a lot of the same struggles that we do, a lot of the struggles that they have. You know, they're building their own in house solutions, they're building their own data repositories and attribution models and all that kind of thing. They tend to be, at least with the Us partners that I work with, digital merchandising chats are going on that there are people that believe in what you do in every single team and you have to create that. It's not going to happen. You have to create it by inviting those people to your brainstorming. Your brainstorming session. Hey guys, I've got to figure out how to prove whether this million dollar investment in connected TV is going to work or not. I'm going to be doing that on Thursday at 1. I want you in there. I would love for you to join me. It's going to be a little messy, it's going to be a little fun, but I'd love to invite you. So they start coming and you're like, so these are the problems that I'm thinking through and all the problems that you're going to be thinking through are the ones that are their doubt. Ok? The doubts that they are going to have are the ones that you're trying to solve for in that moment. So you're anticipating all their needs, all their doubts, all the skepticism up front and with them in the room. So it's creating transparency. I just, I gotta say it again and again because I don't think we do that. I think we try to create the perfect little presentation when we're alone in our room by ourselves and then present it and everybody's gonna love it. And that's never ever the case. And then he mentions, as measurement continues to grow in complexity, curious how you think they tend to be far more ahead of the game than in house solutions are. One thing that we're trying to do at PPG is ask our retail partners, can we create a new metric? Can we create a propensity to buy metric? Can you look at your user about challenging this cultural issue of skepticism? If you are the marketing department in your company, this can be really tough. If you don't work with any external partners, this can be really tough because you truly do just have to prove it yourself. Behavioral data. If they came in through a sponsored product ad compared to an off site banner on Facebook and tell us were they already about to buy when they saw the sponsored product ad? Because if they were, then I want to put my money towards the more awareness, consideration kind of tactic. What I tend to find is a little bit of fear. I think that like we all have over the elf and that was my experience with the startup. I was the marketing department so I understand how that feels. If you have partners, an agency partner or your retail media partners, lean on Them ask them to join a call with you where you're presenting yours. The response is they default to assuming that if we find out that sponsored products the people were already going to buy before they even clicked that image, that we're going to stop spending budget with them, that we're going to remove our sponsored product budget. In reality, all we're going to do is say, oh thanks, I didn't know that that I'm going to shift that budget into the effectiveness of the latest campaign. Ask them to piggyback. There's another tactic. So I think it's natural for them to have some fear around. You know, well, there's strength in numbers and they can help you, you know, tell the story with you. So those are just two ideas I hope are helpful.

Casey, I think that is a great answer.

Does this mean that everybody's going to cut their sponsored product budget and you.

Know, that affects people because then and we are time. So this was an amazing discussion. Thank you everyone.

And you know, how will the paid search team, how will the sponsor product team over there at the in the department be affected? But what I try to encourage them and reassure them is I want to spend more and more money with you. I have to prove that it's effective. I have to be driving volume. So if you can design a metric like propensity to buy which helps me assign budget more intelligently, then this is going to be, you know, cake. This is gonna.

For joining. Thanks for. For participating. The the asks that we have for y' all are to follow Casey and I on LinkedIn if you want more marketing content. We're both pretty active.

The land of milk and honey. You know, if, if we can get a little deeper into where I should.

Assign active there and then also sign up for our next coffee break, it's going to be with Christina Rubino. She's the GM of offline marketing at Right side at Right side Agency. Super short are lots of good discussion.

About my budget to drive the most impact.

Yeah, I love the idea of being able to like work with these partners. I mean PPG I think is probably in a special position where y' all are big enough that like they'll and they'll pick up the phone when you call, which is a really nice position to be in. But this idea that like you can actually shape what these, you know, media partners do or present or the capabilities that they, that they make available through that partnership. And I think that that's like a really powerful place to be and a thing that I Think a lot of marketers, it doesn't even occur to them to like ask or to have those conversations offline. Marketing in particular and like all of the measurement challenges associated with that. So really looking forward to that.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a lot of being. You have to build the relationship to a point where.

Thanks everyone so much for joining. Have a great rest of your Thursday, rest of your week, and we will see you in the next one.

Thanks all.

Bye.

Bye.

Thanks Kasey.

You can be like, hey, I'm just gonna level with you. I don't, I don't. I'm trying to do the best marketing I can here. You know, you guys are marketers. They're marketers just like they wake up every day and I assume they want to end the day having done something meaningful and nobody wants to go to sleep spending money the same way they did when they woke up and just hoping that it does well. Like when I go to bed at night, I want to know that the decisions I made that day positively impacted the paychecks of the people that I work with and the people who depend on me and are depending on this money and their salaries and, and the company's long term success. So I try to level set with them and be like, hey, I want to be a good marketer. You want to be a good marketer. If this was your money and you worked at a startup, like I've worked at a startup before with a $30,000 budget and it was really like, if I don't put my money in the right place, this startup is going to fail. So it's like coming at it with that, like, hey, help me out. Let's like one on one, this is just me and you. If this were your money, where would you put it? And just level.

I love that. And I honestly, I think it's, you know, it's in the best interest of the media network long term to figure out like, where are these dollars most efficient, you know, short term optimization of being like, we're going to trick people into spending money on these things that, you know, these whatever this ad types that don't do anything. Like you can get a little bit of cash up front, but that then people are going to flee away from your network and you're not going to make money long term. The reason Google and Facebook are two of the biggest companies in the world is because, because they drive a lot of business to a lot of companies and like they're, it's because they're good and they work. And so I think, you know, you're totally right that as marketers we can actually help these retail media networks be more successful in the long run by pushing them to incrementally drive our business forward. And like, it can actually, it can feel antagonistic at some times, but it's actually really like in the interest of everyone to figure out how can we actually go and make this work.

Absolutely.

Gage has a great question here about people in the organization potentially having fears about how marketing teams might be grading their own homework with the metrics that they're putting out. How do you think about that challenge in terms of like, I don't know whether it's giving people additional insight into exactly what the metrics are or how do you avoid or neutralize some of that natural skepticism and healthy skepticism, Say like good skepticism. It's good for people to be skeptical, but how do you think about it?

Yeah. So like Gage said, you know, we touched on this a little earlier. Number one, bring in your skeptics from the start. Ask them to help you build the thing that you need to build. Now. You are going to be in that meeting leading the call. Okay? You're going, you are going to set and guide and scope and define and all of that. You are in charge. But you've got to create this groundswell of support so that the, we call it surround sound. So that the surround sound, as everybody's in their little chats and finance teams are chatting and you know, digital merchandising chats are going on, that there are people that believe in what you do do in every single team. And you have to create that. It's not going to happen. You have to create it by inviting those people to your brainstorming session. Hey guys, I've got to figure out how to prove whether this million dollar investment in connected TV is going to work or not. I'm going to be doing that on Thursday at 1. I want you in there. I would love for you to join me. It's going to be a little messy, it's going to be a little fun, but I'd love to invite. Start coming and you're like, so these are the problems that I'm thinking through. And all the problems that you're going to be thinking through are the ones that are their doubt. Okay. The doubts that they are going to have are the ones that you're trying to solve for in that moment. So you're anticipating all their needs, all their doubts, all the skepticism up front and with them in the room. So it's creating transparency. I just. I gotta say it again and again, because I don't think we do that. I think we try to create the perfect little presentation when we're alone in our room by ourselves, and then present it, and everybody's gonna love it. And that's never, ever the case. And then he mentions. As measurement continues to grow in complexity, curious how you think about challenging this cultural issue of skepticism. If you are the marketing department in your company, this can be really tough. If you don't work with any external partners, this can be really tough because you truly do just have to prove it yourself. And that was my experience with startup. I was the marketing department. So I understand how that feels. If you have partners, an agency partner or your retail media partner.