A Shotgun Prayer, an Arrest, and a Second Chance: Mike Smeltzer’s Story of Hope | I Am Real

And it happens fast. You look around, like, like for me, I looked around and I was 21, 22 years old, and I was like, man, I am like just like screwed. I can't stop this at all.

What have you been up to, bro?

Man, I'm honestly just learning, growing, doing, uh, a little bit more every day, uh, not sleeping with my, my 2-month-old baby boy.

Yeah, that's right, 2 months old.

Uh-huh.

And this is your second, right?

Yeah, yeah. So Hudson, my daughter, 2 years old, uh, actually she's the one that I'm not sleeping because of. My wife spends all the time with, with little Woodson, right? You know, she's breastfeeding.

It's Woodson.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Here we go. We got to talk about this. So this is, this is how I know I married the right woman, right? Is we're talking about names and we're like, we don't know if it's a boy or a girl yet. And I'm starting to like pave the way a little bit for, you know, dropping a couple hints. Yeah. Yeah. For anybody that doesn't know, like Charles Woodson is the greatest Michigan football player of all time. And so I'm talking to my wife and I'm like, man, if it's a boy, like Woodson has like a good ring to it, right? Like I like that name. And finally she was like, yeah, we can do that. And so I'm like sitting at work one day and Becky, who you know, my boss, is with me and we get the gender reveal like over the phone from my wife. We're not big on like I'm not gonna like pop a pink or blue balloon. Like, we don't do all that. So we're just about to find out. And Becky is filming my reaction. And my wife, you know, we find out that it's a boy. And I'm just, I like stand up. I'm like, let's go, you know, Woodson. So now I have a baby boy named after the greatest Michigan player of all time. But it's deeper than that really. Me and my dad, who, you know, my dad passed away and me and my dad, like, I grew up watching Michigan football. It's the reason why I love Michigan. And so it's like Woodson is kind of like a nod to my dad, really.

So, yeah, it's so my favorite. Obviously, I'm a Steelers fan. My favorite Steeler of all time was Rod Woodson.

Oh, yeah.

Oddly enough, the first Steeler I ever got to meet and get his autograph was Rod Woodson.

Yeah.

Yeah. I heard Woodson Let's go. Even though it's not the same Woodson.

Yeah, I posted a little picture and Charles Woodson like responded and retweeted. Oh yeah, yeah, it was cool, man.

That's cool. Yeah. Damn. So dude, I can remember when, when I had first come in contact with you, when I first met you, I had— I was newly sober, was in treatment. I had a couple of months under my belt and I was sitting there going through this turmoil of how do I get off Suboxone? And the doctors at the time didn't want to kept telling me I can't get off it or I was doomed to relapse. And there was just something inside of me that was like, I don't want to be tethered to anything anymore. How the fuck do I get off this medication? And so it had gotten to the point where I'd started breaking down pills into littler pieces and taking that.

Yeah.

And I mean, like clockwork, I knew my body knew what time that I normally take that dose and I would just get that uneasy. You know, it's not the same as kicking, kicking dope, but it's You know, it's different, but it's just as unpleasant.

It can be worse sometimes, right? At the time, right now.

The whole process is definitely worse, I think, than kicking dope. But so, dude, I was hopeless in that regard. And it was like, I'm kind of sober right now. But, you know, I remember, I don't know, I think I was still in treatment or just getting ready to get out of treatment and just happened to go to a meeting and heard you speak. And everything you were saying, dude, was hitting me right where it needed to. And then you brought up the Suboxone and getting off subs. And it was like the same shit for you. And so I had— I remember mentioning that to my sponsor and he's like, who, Mike? Yeah, no problem. Shout out Shane.

Shane Henshaw.

Yeah. And he was like, you want me to connect you with them? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, please. And so you not knowing me at all, but like what we do in our community, you came out and met me and we sat there and talked. And the next day, dude, was my, my first day off Suboxone. So it's crazy how full circle this all is, bro. Like us sitting here today And I mean, that was damn near— that's over 7 years ago that happened. And then us getting connected back, dude. So just first of all, to start off the podcast, man, thank you. You played a tremendous, tremendous role in me getting into that last step where I needed to be for full sobriety. So thank you.

Yeah, well, as you know, like, you played a step in my process too. Like, the early recovery is weird, isn't it? Like, you're going out on these little, like, mini dates with these dudes that you don't even know, and you're like, oh, you used to do heroin? Like, I used to do heroin. And then you're like figuring it out. And, um, it's kind of cool that you led with that because that's like the foundation.

Yeah.

Of like who we are, like how we got connected. And, uh, and you know, and I want to take that back a little bit. Like, that's not the foundation of who we are, but it's like the foundation of how we got where we're at. You know, it's like when you talk about splitting up the Suboxone and stuff, like, I just flash— flashback to that. Like, nobody that you try to explain, like you try to explain to people what that's like. Yeah, they're just not gonna get it, man. Like, coming off of opiates and, uh, thank God I wasn't shooting dope when, uh, nowadays with all this fentanyl around, you might— you and me might not be sitting here, you know?

So yeah, I started— that last probably 6, 8 months of me shooting up, I started falling out, didn't know why.

Yeah.

And then once I got sober, I looked back and I was like, holy shit, I caught the very beginning of fentanyl. Thank God I got out. Dude, I don't know. I can remember sitting there with the doctor trying to explain to them the process that I wanted to get off Suboxone and, bro, they were forcing me to stay on it. Like they were filling my head with, if you get off of this, you are relapsing. And I'm sitting there telling them like, no, I have community, like I'm going to meetings, I, you know, I'm working a program, I'm doing all this. They didn't want to hear any of that. They told me if I got off this drug that I was doomed to relapse. I'd be back on heroin. Yeah. Like, what did you have that same experience?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was on methadone for a year. I was on Suboxone for a year. I mean, I was told that's what I needed, but like, you know, and I'm sure you had the same experience. Like, I knew on the inside, like, I'm just dependent on this other thing.

I don't feel right.

Methadone especially. Like, I'm waking up and going to this clinic every morning and we're like, I'm like in a line of dope fiends, you know? And you would miss the clinic one morning and you panic and And I want to be careful about how I phrase this, right? Because there's like the mom out there that lost her kid to a heroin overdose, and she thinks like maybe if he was on Suboxone or one of these pharmaceuticals, maybe he'd still be alive. And so it gets like really hard to look that woman in the face and be like, Suboxone's bad, like people shouldn't be on it. But I do feel strongly that it's not the solution. I really do. I didn't know you're gonna hit us with it. This is like some philosophical stuff right here, but, um, it's just not. Because I understand that sometimes it can keep people alive, uh, momentarily. Yeah, but keeping somebody alive is not the same thing as giving them life.

Yep.

You know what I mean? And like, the program of recovery that I work in, that, um, has become so much more than just the 12 steps, but it has like a 12-step backbone, uh, that gives me life. It gives me opportunities, right? Suboxone never did that to me. It kept me, uh, spiritually and emotionally unavailable. Um, I might not be here without it though because it's really good at tapering people off of substances. So I would just be cautious, uh, to anybody out there that's like thinking about like, should I get on this like maintenance of like these high doses of medications? It's like I would just be very cautious.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. If I think, you know, I don't know how— I think if used correctly, if you go in, you know, if you go into a detox or something like that and they're going to detox you off that for 4 or 5 days, perfect. It's a miracle drug. But if you got a doctor that's sitting there telling you to get on this and putting you on 8, 16 milligrams or even more than that a day, like I kicked a horrendous dope habit and never went above 4 milligrams and the kick off 4 milligrams of that. Of that pill was worse than the dope I had to kick. And I mean, I had a multiple hundred dollar a day habit with heroin. But yeah, it's, you know, you and I both work with addicts today. And so, you know, I'm asked so many questions on a daily basis, like, you know, what do I— when a parent asks you, like, what do I do about my son or daughter? You know, as far as addiction goes, it's— we always have to tread carefully. And all I can do is speak from personal experience. I can speak what worked for me. But I don't ever want to give the parent advice to that ends up being the demise of their, their child.

Yeah.

I mean, like, yeah, I tell people, like, I needed my family to completely turn their back on me. I was sitting in prison and they wouldn't even pick up the phone for me anymore. That's what woke me up. But I would hate to tell that to a parent and tell them to do that. And then they don't pick up the phone and then their kid ODs or something like that. And now it's, you know, now it's my fault.

It's not the 1950s where, like, You know, these old school alcoholics, they, you know what they would say, right? Like, oh, if you don't think you're done drinking, like, go to the bar and try to control your drinking a little bit and see if you can control. You can't tell kids that nowadays. You can't say, go, you know, experiment with fentanyl and see if you can control it, because that might be a little bit. Yeah, it might be the last thing they ever do, you know. So you're right, it's a different world. Working with these guys, working with their families, it's tough. Yeah, it's tough.

The, uh, you know, I wouldn't discourage people that are, that are on Suboxone or anything like that because at the end of the day, if you're not shooting, you know, I've opened my mind much more like 7 years into sobriety and I've opened my mind up to much more than I know what got me sober. 12 steps got me sober. But like you said, we built on it and you see all these other things that have such a benefit. And so, yeah, if your son or daughter or you personally, if you're taking Suboxone and you're not shooting dope, good. That's the step in the right direction. But anybody out there that wants to be tethered to anything for the rest of their life, like, I promise you, it's not what it is. Like, yeah, it's not what you want.

Yeah.

The, the feeling of now being able to go on a trip and not have to worry, do I have enough of this, whatever, to get me through. Yeah. Which never goes to plan. You always do more than you thought you were going to do and then run out. But yeah, like, I'm— again, I don't want anyone to think we're sitting there talking bad on Suboxone, but You know, we both have an intimate knowledge of what people look like on the other side of that when they're hooked on that too. And it's not— it's just as not pretty as heroin shit.

The dudes that are on it, and when I say dudes, I mean men and women, right? The people that are on it, they're not the problem, right? You know what I mean? And I'm gonna get a little controversial here. I know some of these, you know, doctors and people, but the problem is the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors that are taking kickbacks from the pharmaceutical companies. It's an unfortunate reality that the same people that created the opioid epidemic, right, and I'm not gonna get too far into conspiracies here, but you know, it's a well-known fact now that they were dishonest with us, the world, the United States, about the addictiveness and the harm of OxyContin and hydrocodone and all that stuff. And now the same companies that created this epidemic are like, oh, but we have the solution, right? Come take this pill that it's gonna solve, you know, it's a partial agonist and it has a longer half-life and it'll keep, you know, it'll keep you from getting, yeah, non-addictive, all these things. And it's like, why are we trusting the people that got us into this mess? And so again, I don't wanna get too like targeted, but—

Talk that shit.

Talk that shit.

No, it's, bro, I'm so glad, you know, that these documentaries have started to come out these different shows, you know what I mean, that are like shedding light on what the hell's actually going on in this world. And like, people aren't stupid anymore. The internet and social media—

I had a doctor tell me— sorry for interrupting— I had a doctor tell me one time, and I'll never forget it, he was like, like, 80% of people that get put on buprenorphine, which is Suboxone, have a reduction in cravings. And I'm like, Yeah, it's like 80% or 100% of people you give heroin have a reduction in cravings too, right? It's like you give somebody an addictive substance, like they're gonna be content about it for a little while. And so, and then there's all these studies that are funded by the pharmaceutical companies that show like self-reports of people that are on Suboxone that are like, this is helping me a lot. And it's like, well, yeah, I would have said it was helping me a lot when I was on it. You would have said the same thing. It's a crazy, interesting world we live in, man.

For sure. Yeah. So where did it all start for you? You're from up north, right?

Yeah.

Originally.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so where did it— where did it all go?

Let me correct you. Born and raised in Austin, actually. But I always kind of like, I just roll with it when people say I'm from up north because I rep Michigan. You know, my parents, my mom and my dad met in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Western Michigan University up there, and they moved like— it was either the year I was born or the year my brother was born. It was like I was very young, moved to Austin. And so I was born and raised in Texas, but I always kind of carry that Michigan mentality with me. You know, Detroit is a special place. It's a special city that has a lot of pride. People from Michigan have a lot of pride in the way.

And now they got some stuff to be proud about.

Well, yeah, finally, right? From a football perspective. But yeah, man, I, you know, I grew up, you know, good family. Mom and dad were— they stayed together. They were good to me. I didn't really fit the prototype of somebody you would think like, that dude's going to be a drug addict, right? Like, that dude's going to fuck everything up. And, and but nevertheless, I did. Now when you look back, there's a lot more people that kind of fit my profile that ended up that way. Like now I think people would say like, yeah, that makes sense. There's a lot of these guys that came from relatively good families that you wouldn't have expected to be the dude, you know, stealing and pawning and all the things I ended up doing. And, and, but, you know, nevertheless, that's, that's kind of what I ended up doing, man.

Right. So what— let me ask you a question. What do you feel— I know growing up, I think you and I were both told that weed is a gateway drug. Yeah, right. Weed is going to take you into all the other drugs. For me, that was not the case.

Yeah.

Alcohol was my gateway. Like, alcohol never got me where I— weed definitely never got me where I wanted to be. Alcohol got me somewhere. It just wasn't where I wanted to be. But that's what took away all the inhibitions and was like, all right, now let's get this party started and whatever else is around, I'm going to do. Was it like that for you? Like, what would you say was your gateway or what initially got you into drugs?

First time I ever smoked weed, but I was in fifth grade, right? So pretty young, like 10 years old. And a buddy of mine stole some like dirty brown swag from his older brother that was like 15, you know, so like 15-year-old. I was like a big kid, you know. And we rolled it up in some 8 by 11 like white computer paper. You know, like not the way you're supposed to smoke weed, right? And we're coughing and hacking and it was all about just being cool at that point. It wasn't like, oh, I need to change the way I feel because I'm depressed. Like, that was just like, yeah, I was just a bad kid. I just wanted to do, you know, just break rules. I knew, you know, the D.A.R.E. program's real big. Like, don't do drugs, just say no. I'm like, well, I'm definitely going to do whatever, whatever that is, you know, had the opposite effect. But then I stayed pretty straight for a while. Like, I, I dabbled with some things, but basketball kept me sober, um, or clean, or like kind of out of trouble for a little while. Um, well, actually not out of trouble. I, you know, I got sent to an alternative school in 8th grade.

You did?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah, dude, I was a bad kid, Sean. I was, I was so different.

Picture it.

Yeah, I was so different back then, man. Like, I was like that dude at school that was just like a problem, you know, like a problem. And And, uh, looking back, it was all just a lack of self-confidence, you know what I mean? It was like I just wanted people to like me. I just want— I wanted to see like where I fit in. And so I was always just, you know, pushing the boundaries and all that shit. But, um, really the gateway— to get back to your question— like, uh, it was kind of weed and alcohol. It was kind of a mixture. But I would say it was def— I'd say weed was a gateway to the, the stronger stuff for me, for sure.

Okay.

First time I really got messed up was I was in high school, buddy of mine, Greg Fabry. Shout out Greg Fabry. I'm putting him on blast. He's a bad influence on me.

It's all your fault.

He came over, so I'm literally in my mom's class, right? She's a teacher at the school, a statistics teacher.

We're at your school, at the—

at my school. And I was in the class. Yeah, yeah. And Greg Fabry was also in her class, and we were supposed to be like studying or something. And I'm like, hey, can Greg come over? We're gonna study. And He comes over and we end up stealing my mom's Tito's, you know, pouring out half the Tito's and filling it up with water. And then he's got some weed and we're smoking weed in the backyard. And it was fun, you know, like I still look back on that like really fondly. Yeah, like those, those are—

that's not addiction yet.

It's like kids being kids, you know, like breaking rules, you know, and like, yeah, we did some stupid stuff. And yeah, like I've I could have hurt so many people by drinking and driving and like stuff like that. But, um, you're right, it wasn't addiction. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't to that point where it was like uncontrollable or we had a problem or anything. And then I popped my first hydrocodone, you know, probably 16, 17 years old. That was different. Yeah, that was when my shoulders went from here to like Ah, right. You know, like, I know exactly that sense of, you know, I can talk to people. Life is good. I got confidence. Like, I feel—

made you feel like you.

Yeah.

Who you were supposed to be. Yeah, dude. It's, uh, I can remember the first time I— first time I drank, I drank 6, uh, 6 Beast, uh, 6 Beasts, and I was trashed. Um, first time I smoked weed, like, I did it and it was like, it was still that innocent, fun, like first experience. Oh my God. But yeah, I think my addiction, the addiction started to peek its head when I discovered coke because that very quickly became like, all right, that's a weekend, once a month thing to every weekend to now we're doing it on Wednesdays and all that to where now we're like, I can remember still being in the military and Every single morning, I haven't been to sleep yet, you know, bloody tissues all around me. And I'm sitting there driving on the base like, I will never do this again. I'll never fucking do this again. And then that evening, we're right back to— right back to where we were. And then I remember going back home to Ohio. Nobody was doing coke anymore and all OxyContin was everywhere. And I can remember fondly my one buddy being like, bro, be careful. This shit will get a hold of you. And, you know, I mean, feeling like you're 10-foot tall and bulletproof. I'm like, fuck that. Give me one. And the first couple of times I did oxys, they did not hit me at all. Like, I didn't feel anything. Nothing.

What were you doing, man?

I don't know. But then it was like the third time, the girl I was dating, she split a— she split a 40 with me. An oxy 40.

Yeah.

And I had done half an 80 before and it didn't hit me, but I did this half a 40 and I was rocked. Yeah. And then it was like, that's where, like you're saying, the shoulders go down. It was like the light bulb went off. I was like, I can snort this shit, I can sleep, I can eat, there's no bloody tissues, like this is where it's at.

Music is better, right? I know you and me, we were bumping some rap back then and like everything was better, like it was clearer. Yeah, yeah.

And those pain pill, why is it, why is it that some people do pain pills and they're instantly like puking, feel like garbage and all that? First time I did pain pills, it was like speed to me. I was like rearranging the, canned goods in the cupboards and shit, like, to color coordinate it. Like, what do you think that is, dude?

I, you know, they talk about a genetic predisposition, like addicts have genetic predispositions, and, uh, I genuinely believe that we're built different, you know what I mean? Because like, I talk to real opiate addicts and, uh, it's different, man. You get— you put it in your body and it genuinely— like, I remember, like, yeah, I'm like I'm still young, so I got like my basketball card collection. I'm like organizing them, like alphabetizing them, you know, like, right? It's like, what? I don't know. I don't know what that is. Other people would just be like passed out on the couch, and I'm going, you know?

Yeah, opiates never made me puke, never made me upset to my stomach, anything.

I used to puke when I was smoking heroin, dude, for sure.

Oh, you're smoking it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that make you puke.

What a waste.

I'll probably get like Alzheimer's from that or something, you know. Smoking tin foil is not It can't be good. It can't be good for you. I'm smoking pharma and I would smoke OCs too. Like, that's—

I've smoked a couple. Just always felt like that can't be good. Can't be smoking.

You just want a war story for the rest of the hour, man.

We can do that. Originally, when originally when I was going to start this podcast, War Stories was going to be the name.

Okay.

But then the people I was talking with about it, I was like, well, because they were like, you can have all your addict friends on, you can just share crazy stories.

Well, you got the military background too. So War Stories kind of has like that. Yeah, it would have been that dual thing like that.

But I was I was like, ah, we really don't do that, but it is fun. It's fun to talk about.

Yeah.

So, so you do pain pills for the first time and you finally feel that, that effect. Does it like ramp up immediately or?

Pretty much, man. It was kind of like you were talking about cocaine, how it just like took off, which by the way, it's hard to do one line of cocaine, isn't it? Like, I don't know anybody that can really just do one line, but if you're an addict, You're just gonna think about it until you get the next one. That's how it was. It was like I needed one, then I needed two, then I needed three. I started having consequences my senior year. You know, I was playing varsity basketball in my high school. My senior year started to fizzle because I was like, you know, dabbling with drugs. I end up going to college, uh, you know, Texas State in San Marcos. I fall in love with my high school sweetheart. She goes there too, and You would think that I had things like together. Yeah, from the outside looking in. But man, I, I can probably like almost in my head count the total number of classes I went to in college, like the whole time. Because, you know, you go from a place where they're like taking attendance and you're supposed to be in school to where like it doesn't matter if I show up or not. And I'm skipping class. I'm hooked on these OC-80s, you know. I used to, uh, they had that coating on them. You pop them in your mouth and get that coating off. I would shave them down with like a Ped Egg, you know, like a pedicure thing. And I'm just snorting these 80s, and, um, that was my life. And those pills were expensive, and I didn't have money. I didn't come from a lot of money.

What'd you pay?

Well, shit, I started at like $30, $40. By the end, they were like $100 a pill for the 80s, dude. It was crazy. Um, But, you know, and I always tell people this, like, so I needed money, and so like I started pawning all of my stuff. That's, I mean, that's a pretty common thing addicts do, you know. You go to the pawn shop and you start pawning your stuff. I was real big into like music. I was like making beats and recording music and all this stuff, and I systematically sold every single thing I owned. Like, these were like the, the things that I loved, right? And when I got done pawning my shit, like, what do you think I did next?

Yeah, family stuff.

Started pawning your shit, right? Like, that's kind of the nature of the beast. And so, and I didn't go, you know, steal from people I didn't know. I was stealing from the people I loved, man. Like, I cleaned out my girlfriend at the time, which of course that didn't last a whole lot longer after that. Pawned my mom's wedding ring.

I did the same thing. There's so many similarities in our story. My mother was a teacher. So many similarities. Keep going.

Yeah, except you're from Ohio, the inferior state of Ohio. Yeah, my family's from Michigan here. Um, but yeah, man, it got lonely quick, man. It got miserable quick. It's not— it's just not a fun existence. You, you run out of the stuff that that keeps you well, right? Like what you and I were just talking about, about like, oh, I can talk to girls, life is good, I feel good. Before long, like, that is gone. And it's like, I gotta put all this substance in my body just to feel normal, right? And I get a little sick to my stomach even like remembering that because it was so— it was like just nasty, dude. Like, and you get— you don't sleep, you got restless legs, diarrhea, cold sweats, like all all that if you don't put that substance in your body. So you're just hooked, and it happens fast. You look around, like, like for me, I looked around and I was 21, 22 years old, and I was like, man, I am like just like screwed. I can't stop this at all. And eventually when I was 24 years old, I was, uh, I had been— I had transitioned from oxys to heroin because heroin was cheaper and it, you know, more available at times. And I just remember, well, I don't want to get into it. That's a long story, but I just hurt everybody that I love.

Are you about to tell the story where the police come into the house?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Would you tell the story?

Yeah, I can tell that.

If you would.

I can tell that.

You don't have to if you don't want to.

No, no, no, absolutely.

Was that your rock bottom? Would you say that's your rock bottom moment?

No, but it was like my, it was like, oh well, yeah, so I was, what I was actually gonna tell is like about the time I got physical with my mom, and then I was gonna get to that, but let me get into that. So I remember, and I don't even know if my mom remembers this. Actually, that's dumb. She definitely remembers this. So I was like on the phone negotiating with a drug dealer, like which one of my mom's belongings I was going to like trade for dope, you know? And she either overheard me or like knew what was going on. And when I was walking out the door to get it, And keep in mind, I had been kicked out of the house previously several times. Things had already gotten bad, and for whatever reason, I had convinced them to let me move back in. And I was walking out to get this dope. I think it was heroin. It might have been some pills at the time. And my mom cuts me off, and she's crying. She's like, don't go out there, don't do this. I don't think she really knew what substances I was on, but it was very obvious. Something was going on.

She knew what something was.

Yeah, and I pushed her out of the way, man. And me and my mom, like, we've always struggled. Like, there's some dysfunction between me and her, but like, she loves me, I love her. She was a— she's a good mom. And so like, I love this woman. And the fact that I like pushed her out of the way and went and— and I kind of remember her like running behind me as I— it's kind of a vague memory, but it was like, it's just like very dramatic. Thing that happened, and I went and I got well. And of course, by getting well, I mean like I got high.

Yeah, for sure.

And then I came back in, I was like, Mom, I'm a heroin addict, like I need help. And we didn't have a lot of money. She called like a friend of hers, it was like a counselor at the high school that she worked at, and, and, uh, because they'll know what to do.

Yeah, yeah, she didn't have any other options.

Well, and actually, this woman helped quite a bit. She kind of got me like on like a good path. Essentially, like, we didn't have a lot of money, but we had good insurance. And so I go to this like cush, nice little treatment center, this nice rehab in Hunt, Texas. Men and women, you know, there's a lot of distractions. But I really like, I wanted to be done. I wanted to be done. Like, I wasn't, I wasn't like not taking it seriously. Like, I knew that I needed help and all that, and I get introduced to the step work and I like find other guys. Like, you know, I remember a dude that was like, I pawned my mom's laptop. And I was like, what? Other people do that? You can silence that if you want. And it was crazy to like connect with other people that had done the things that I had done because I thought I was different, right? Like I had other buddies that were like playing beer pong and drinking hard and stuff, but like I felt kind of alone.

Yeah.

With the fact that I would like wake up and need dope.

Yeah.

You know, I knew a couple other dudes that I surrounded myself with that were like that, but I didn't feel a huge emotional connection to them. So I thought I might have just been like a bad dude. And I—

hold on, let me— it's weird that you're saying that because I had my friends that were like the hard drinkers and they're like the jock kind of partiers or whatever. And then those of us that got on oxys, it's weird. We all kind of separated. Like, we all— like, we were still all boys, but like, I would go around the friends that were drinking and all that stuff, but I was just an addict. So at some point in the night I'd be drinking, but I got to dip out for a little while, you know what I mean, to go get right, right, or whatever. But then these guys, we like, we all isolated, started on the, on the outsides because of the drugs, because we know what we were doing was a little bit more than what everybody else was down for.

There's always like that one bathroom at the party that there's like a couple, you know, it's like you see You see some people walk back and you're like, okay, I'm gonna go over there. Yeah, like those are the people I'm gonna hang out with. Um, but yeah, so you start to drift and, and you lose the friends that you have like real things in common with, like the basketball team and like the thing, you know, like the guys that I had the real bond with, I lost because I started bonding with people that needed dope because like my whole life had to revolve around that, right? So I'm in this treatment center, I do a pretty good job. I'm, you know, I mean it. I'm working the steps. I get out and I do this sober living thing because they say you gotta do sober living, so I'm doing the sober living thing. And I'm like 75 days sober, and, and, uh, I get this call that my grandpa passed away. My grandfather, my mom's dad. And I should have known something was up by the way that it made me feel and the thoughts that I had, because I wasn't like Like today, if that happened, I'd be like, let me make sure my mom's okay, right? Like, let me call my brother because that's his grandpa too. Like, I want to make sure everybody is good. But all I thought was like, poor me, you know? Like, how could this happen to me? Like, I'm doing everything right. I'm staying sober. I'm hanging on. And, and, you know, I lose this person I love. And to put it in perspective, when I was at that treatment center, I felt like I got shipped away. I felt like I was alone. About 14 days in, I found out you can get mail. And I was like, well, nobody's sending me mail. And I go in to this like little mail spot or whatever they have, and I had 14 letters from my grandpa. Yeah, he had sent me a letter every single day I was in there. Yeah, every day I was in there. And I never got to thank him for that. I got out of treatment, I was like, you know, I didn't know he was gonna die. I didn't, you know, And so he dies, and I'm like, okay, I know I'm gonna have to go back to Austin to fly up to Michigan to go to his funeral. And the thought hits me, and it's that thought that takes every addict, you know, is like, maybe I can just do it one time. Maybe I can just get high one time. Like, I'm feeling bad, I'm sad, my grandpa just died, I deserve this, you know, I'll hop back into recovery.

And you believe it. Yeah, core, you believe it.

And so I did, I got high. And I was high at my grandpa's funeral. Earlier you were talking about the things we do about trips and stuff. Like, I literally had balloons of heroin, like, on the plane from Austin to Michigan. And keep in mind, there's like canines walking through the airport and stuff. Like, yeah, that's a stressful thing. But then I never— I never— or I shouldn't say I never— it took 4 years to get back into recovery after that. That one time lasted 4 years, and that's when it got tough, man. That's when the story goes dark, because that's when I start shooting heroin.

Now you're bottom of the barrel.

Yeah, shooting meth. Um, you know, I was thinking about— for whatever reason, I was thinking about this before the pod today, and, uh, I remember, and I hadn't thought about this in years, and it's just like every now and then I'll just remember something that I did, and I'm like, I can't believe I did that. We used to get, you know, when you're shooting dope like heroin, you got to pull it through a cotton, like in a spoon. You got to pull it through the— I know you know what I'm talking about, but I'm getting a little graphic for anybody that doesn't know.

Need a filter. You don't want any garbage in your shot.

You got to filter it because you can't have chunks of dope just floating in your blood.

And we're dirty, so we use cigarette filters, right? Usually Newport filters with all the fiberglass.

And that's what I was going to say is, is I used to pick up cigarette filters when I didn't have— like, there were already some dirty ones off the ground. And so, like, A normal person would look at that and be like, what? You did what? And I think that was like a daily occurrence. I'd be like, oh, I got to filter this dope. I don't have any of my cigarettes on me. And so I'd pick up literally a random cigarette butt off the ground. It's brown because it's been smoked. Throw it in the spoon and pull the heroin through that and shoot it up.

Probably with toilet water too.

Well, I don't know if I ever used toilet water. Yeah. Okay.

That's where I used to go to in Waco. I used to stop at Flying J's on the way home because I couldn't wait to get back to where I was going to get high. So I'd stop at Flying J's, which is a truck stop.

Yeah.

And I'd be dope sick. So I run in the bathroom, start preparing all my stuff. Well, a truck stop bathroom is busy, so it's not like— then I get in there, the sink, then I get in there and realize like, fuck, I was so in such a hurry I didn't grab water. And I do this all the time. And so now I'm sitting there, I got dope in the spoon. It's not like I can walk out and just go get— pull water into my needle. So now here I am, like, flush the toilet a couple of times. All right, here we go.

I told people that aren't drug addicts, like, what are these guys talking about right now? This is insane.

The second or third podcast we ever did, we were at those boxing gloves, Jesse James Leija. So yeah, I watched it. We're in his gym and everything, and we were talking about something, and a couple of the girls that are on the team, I was like, I used to shoot up with Chuck's truck stop toilet water. This isn't shit to me. And they were both like, yeah. I'm like, oh fuck, I did. I forgot my audience for a moment.

And that's just one of— like, I just brought that up because it's like an example of what like daily life was like. It was just a bunch of stuff like that. And you think like, how does this like little suburban dude, you know, like that should have had so much promise and potential, was playing varsity sports in high school, like how does he end up being the dude that's pulling, uh, you know, dirty water through a smoked cigarette? And, um, that's just what life turned into. And then to get off of the heroin, I had this idea Maybe I can shoot enough meth to come off of the heroin.

And it seems rational.

It seems rational. Like, you know, there's science, right? Dopamine. You know, you got to just like, you just got to ride the dopamine off the heroin or something. And so I did that for a while and I went on some gnarly meth runs, man. Like, I've been thrown out of some psych hospitals telling them— I still remember, like, I was telling them I had like Morgellons disease, which is this thing I found on the internet, which is like that I had fibromyalgia. Yeah, whatever it's called, you know, it That's probably how you say it. Yeah, there's like fibers that the FBI doesn't know about that's like going into my system. And, um, just all these random things. And it's like, man, I was spun off. Like, it was bad, dude. And so by the end, I'm shooting heroin, shooting meth, popping Xanax to come down off of it, and, uh, really skinny. Like, if you look at pictures of me like right before I got sober, it's like, man, like 115 pounds.

You got the pictures?

Oh yeah, I got you.

If you would send them to me, we'll put them up as we're talking about.

I'll send you. Yeah, I'll say I'll find, I'll find some good ones. I'll send you some. And I was a little hood rat too, so we got some good ones. We got some good ones. So anyway, like, it just wasn't what I thought my life should be like. I thought I was a smart person. I thought I was a good person.

I—

and not only that, like, some people, like, tell their story and they're like, they didn't have a purpose and they didn't have dreams. Like, I did, man. Like, I believed in helping people even when I was doing all that. I believed in learning about cool shit, like the stuff I'm doing now, just like talking to interesting people, eating cool food, learning about time and space and all these things. Like, all these things, I had all that back then. And that almost made it worse because it was like all these things I wanted to do with my life, I just couldn't get past it. And so that brings me to the story that you just asked about.

Before you get into that, another parallel here. I can remember sitting in a— I had just gotten popped for my first or second time. I think it was my second time because I was already on bond, and I get popped in the same county. Yeah, so I'm sitting in jail and my grandfather's dead. He dies. And so I'm calling home to Ohio to try to get my mother to bail me out because I was supposed to go home for the funeral. Yeah, I just want to get out of jail. It's not that I really— and my grandfather played a very You know, my parents split up when I was 2. My grandfather was the only male figure until my stepfather would come into my life years later. And he always, he and I bonded. He was so proud of me for being in the military and all this stuff. So we did have a, we had a special bond. And here I'm sitting there trying to manipulate to get out of jail to where now I'm talking to like my 11-year-old little sister because my mom is so upset about her father passing away that she can't even talk on the phone. And here I'm trying to tell my 11-year-old little sister on how to call a bondsman and bail me out so I can get home. And then go through all this stuff, I end up getting home and I can remember going in, you know, before the calling hours start, they give you time with the, you know, to say your goodbyes. And I just remember standing over the casket looking at my grandfather and just, I busted out crying. And I feel guilty for saying it, but it wasn't so much so that my grandfather was gone. It was, I felt that he was like looking down on me and he knew everything I had done.

Son.

Yeah, he knew all the shit, the bullshit that I've been pulling, all the lies I've been telling, all the this, that, the tearing apart my family, doing all this stuff. And I just felt like he knew, and I was so embarrassed and so mortified by that.

Yeah.

And I just remember sitting there for like an hour just sobbing, just crying. So dude, I, I can only imagine how it hit you too.

I strongly relate to that. I still talk to my dad when I'm doing something stupid, and I'm like, ah, this is me, Dad. Like, this is, you know, like even in recovery, if it's something that's just like, you know, kind of dumb. And, uh, by the way, your sister is amazing, dude. Like, I've never met her, but like in, in your documentary at the end, man, I'm just like literally bawling.

Thank you.

Uh, it was so cool because like to get to know you in recovery and then to watch your documentary and to see that, and that moment when she like shows up at the end, like I, I could not— it wasn't like, it wasn't like what I normally cry like because I'll cry every now and then now. Like, I'm, I'm not ashamed to say that. I'll have like the single tear with you, with that at the end of that, it was like a full like, boo, like sniveling. Like I was like crying, dude. It was really cool to see that part of your life, man.

It's crazy. They did such a good, such a good job of the documentary. I've seen it 1,000 times. Every time I go speak or something like that, it's so— but there's always still a part that'll hit me, whether my sister says something, mom, stepdad, they say something, it just hits me in a certain way and I just start start tearing up and crying. Yeah, yeah, we're getting old, bro, because I do cry. Like, I'm not saying I cry a lot, but like certain movies or certain things will catch me and I'm just like, Jesus, tighten up, tighten up.

When you just get like, like more present, that like you're just more open to like having a real human experience.

Like, to me, in touch with your actual self.

Yeah, like it's so— I went so long without really laughing or really crying, you know, because either because I was too scared to laugh or I was too tough to cry, right? You know, I was like, that's, that's no way to live. You know what I mean?

I want you to get into your story, but I want to ask you a question. Yeah, I don't want to forget it. So in adulthood now, post-addiction, you know what I mean? We don't have the same brains that we did back when we were getting high. Yeah, I mean, and I think the level of running and working out I do has helped heal my brain tremendously, but I still don't think it is now what it would have been had I not done drugs or alcohol right now. Today, like, what do you legitimately find joy in? Because that was in early recovery, that was something I was so scared of. It was like, yeah, I don't get that. Like, I'm not excited about anything. Like, there's— there was nothing where it was like, oh my god, I can't, you know. Yeah, I've gotten that now, but it's still— it's never like that Christmas morning type excitement. But like, what did you then in early recovery, or now, like, what do you find joy in? Because I think there's a lot of people that wonder that.

Yeah, well, I had to essentially like obsess over recovery for my first year. I'm a big believer that if you obsess over anything for a year, like truly obsessed, it's going to change your life for better or for worse, right? Like it'd be a good thing or a bad thing. And for me, I had to obsess over recovery, man. And so early on in recovery, I was just getting joy out of the things that you like hear people say, the cliché things like, oh man, like I saw the light come on in somebody else's eyes that I was helping. And that filled me with joy. And it's like, most of the time that was true for me. Sometimes I'm sitting across from a guy and I'm like, I don't even care about this dude. I'm just like, you know, like, and that's just, that's the reality. It's like, that's what's going on in my brain.

That's 100% honesty, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, but you know, more times than not, I like, you know, found some joy in those things. But then like bonding, right? Because we talked about those brothers that we lost. I never thought I would have that again, you know, like that team mentality. I have some dudes now that I started working with early, you know, as a tech at The Last Resort, which is the treatment center I'm executive director of now. But early on, I was just like, you know, overnight tech, you know, 7, 8 years ago. And I bonded with those guys like hardcore to the point where like we're still in group texts together. And those are the guys you can send anything to, like the unfiltered messages and like And like, to me, that's special. Like, I find joy in that. And then fast forward this many years to where I'm at now, and I know we're jumping around a lot, but, um, it's, it's my kids, dude. Yeah, it's my kids. It still feels weird saying that because like part of me is still that scared little boy that couldn't get off of heroin. And when I hear myself be like, oh, I'm a dad, you know, and then, and then my little 2-year-old Hudson, she's this little blonde-haired, blue-eyed girl, and me and my wife, neither one of us have blonde hair or blue eyes, so like we don't know where it came from. The recessive gene just chilling in both of us, I guess. And she'll just like look up at you and just be like, Daddy, I love you, like out of nowhere. And I'm just like, talk about like chill, you know? It's just like, it's like, that's so much better than heroin, you know what I mean? I just had to get all that other stuff out of the way so I could let God or the universe or whatever you want to call it, right, work in my life to where I can like have these joys now, man. Yeah, that's a good question, dude. That's a good question.

Yeah, dude, it's tough because I feel like there was years where I was sober, it was still— I can remember talking about my now— with my now wife when she was just my girlfriend, and she would get almost upset, like, I want you to be excited about it. I was like, I am, but like, I'm not 12. I don't— I'm not like jumping around and doing all that stuff, but I think the more life I've lived, now I've started to discover, it was like, oh, like I get excited for this, I get excited for this. But it was tough being in early recovery because we obsess over the recovery thing. And so that we get in that bubble that becomes our world. It's recovery, recovery, recovery. And so it's so important. And what I talk about a lot on the podcast or every time I feel like sometimes the stuff I talk about is like, taboo in the recovery world because if anything comes out of your mouth that's not like 12 steps, only 12 steps, then it's taboo. You know what I mean? But just as important as me doing the 12 steps was discovering something I was passionate about or discovering something that actually made me excited to be alive, to be sober, to wake up in the morning. And so like finding those things, like that's what I try to get the clients I work with or the people that I talk to. It's like you have to get out there and discover these things.

You have to.

Because if you don't, If you think you're just going to get sober and then go to meetings and, you know, job, girlfriend, boyfriend, car, and you're just going to find joy out of life, it's going to be hard unless you get to the advanced stages where you're having kids and, you know what I mean? You have this different appreciation. But like, I don't have kids, so it's like I don't have that. I have a, I have a dog that's excited as shit every time I come home. And like, that's special to me, you know what I mean? Like, I get excited because I know even if my wife's not happy I'm home, which she always is. But I know my dog Bugsy is going to be sitting there tail wagging, ready to go. But it's like finding those simple joys in life for people, I think, is huge. And people need those wins in early recovery.

Yeah. And it's interesting too, because like, I'm kind of a believer in— I have like a, almost a contradictory idea of like the 12 steps and recovery, like how it works and everything. Like, and maybe this is just transference of my own experience, but like, I kind of believe you have to at least experience like the boot camp of like, like, hit a bunch of meetings, learn how to sponsor people, like, learn the principles of the program. And even if it's not a 12-step program, there's programs out there that almost emulate the same transformation that the 12 steps do. And you almost have to like have that regimen, like morning meditation, nightly inventory, call your sponsor, like all these things that we practice to learn how to live. But I never wanted to be that dude forever, right? You know, I don't want to be that guy that shows up to a 12-step meeting and just like wants to show everybody how smart I am because I like know the Big Book. And believe me, I did that for a while. Yeah, like, like you're saying, it has to be— I like, I didn't get sober to like talk about how I got sober, even though that's what we're doing right now. That's not the purpose. Like, I want to live life. I want to do cool stuff.

Yeah, it's still a portion in our life. Yeah. Still time and place for us to do that. But we've definitely gotten to the point. And that's the thing. It's like you get to that point and you almost kind of look around and you feel guilty because every word that's coming out of my mouth now isn't about recovery or sobriety or how I got sober. And it's like, I feel guilty now. Like, oh shit, I'm like living a life right now.

Yeah. Guys, like, how many meetings did you go to this week? I was like, I haven't been to a meeting this month, bro. You know what I mean? And they're like, oh, he's going to relapse. And it's like, well, You know, maybe, but I actually feel pretty good about where I'm at. I'm living the same principles, right? Yeah.

So we had an amazing woman on the podcast not long ago. Her episode just came out and she talked a lot about that where she was doing meetings. She's, you know, I want to say she was close to like double-digit years in sobriety and then she still has all these service commitments. She's still meetings almost every night, tons of sponsees. And she said very openly on here, she's like, Sean, like, I was ready to kill myself.

Like, yeah.

It had become to the point where now it was a detriment to her life more than it was a help. And she kind of stepped away from it. But she was to that point in her sobriety and everything else where it was time to her start living her life and drop some of those things. And she said she's never been happier.

Right.

And I'm like, that is like, it's the double-edged sword.

Yeah.

I mean, it's what nobody talks about, but it would have been nice to know that sitting down in my first meeting that there's light at the end of the tunnel. You know, I mean, there's, there's going to be a day where I don't need to, I don't have to do a meeting every day. But like you said, I think we all need to go through that boot camp because it's just like the military. We need to put this structure and discipline into your life to where it's a working part of your life.

Yeah.

And then see what you do after it becomes habitual.

And then it's like, okay, I don't have to rely on the mechanics. I can rely on this thing that they all talk. Some of them call it God. Some people call it higher power, Buddha, the universe. Whatever it is, like there's something else, right? The Tao, the way, you know, like I get real into like all those things, but it's like if I'm relying on the mechanics of like the 12-step program or the work, then I'm not actually relying on the essence of what that program is about, which is about getting out of your own fucking way and letting like God do for you what you can't do for yourself, you know?

Right. So getting back into your, uh, The one story you were gonna tell.

Yeah, yeah, so I like this transition. It's kind of like a movie. We went forward, now we're going backwards a little bit. I like it. Starting all over. No, man, the time when I actually got sober and stayed sober was like the least, it should have been the least likely time for it to happen, right? Like I was screwed. I was done. I, so I was on this run. I spent time homeless. I spent time sleeping in cars and stuff and got arrested a few times. I, you know, was on probation for this and for that. And I always remember like the worst day was when I had to go in and pee for probation and I knew they're gonna lock me up. You know, I was like just living in fear all the time. And eventually I convinced my parents to let me move back in as I always did. And I'm like trying to get off of Suboxone at the time because I was doing heroin, like a bunch of heroin and meth and all these things. And then I tapered myself off of Suboxone. It was like an at-home taper off subs I got on the streets. And I get to my last day and I got this sponsor at the time who's like this well-known dude in the kind of Austin recovery scene. Mark Rector, who's— I love this guy to death. He means the world to me. He's also like a character too, you know, like he's like very— he's a redheaded guy, big tattoos. I know you know who I'm talking about. And I'm just a scared little boy, and I walk into this meeting, and I'm like, like, I don't know what to do. I'm crying. I'm like, I can't stop. I, you know, I don't know what to do. And this guy shares like right after me, and It feels like he's sharing like right at me, which knowing Mark now, he probably was, you know. And, uh, and I'm like, man, I'm gonna ask that guy to be my sponsor. Like, he seems to know something that I don't. And, and I talked to him and I'm like, hey, can you take me through the steps but like before I get off of Suboxone? Because I was like, I want to like work the 12-step program and get, you know, off of Suboxone after that. And he's like, no, you can't do it that way. Just like, just like matter of fact. So I get off the subs. Day 1, I'm sweating, it's terrible. Day 2, awful, it's getting worse. Day 3, it's real bad. And like a guy like me, I can't get past 3 days of withdrawals. Like that, that's when I would always go back. Day 3, like not sleeping, feeling shitty, I'm going back. And that hits me, I'm gonna go get high. And you know, man, like when that hits you, it's too late. Like nothing's gonna stop you, it's too late. And I have this moment where I'm like, okay, Mark and these people at these 12-step meetings, they've been telling me about this God idea and about the program and the third step. And I'm like, so I have all that like in me, this philosophy, it's like in my head, but it's not really in my heart yet. And I'm like, you know what, I'm just gonna hit my knees and I'm gonna say a prayer. And I said this prayer that was something like, God, I'm gonna go get high. You know, there's nothing you can do to stop me. Like, I know that. But these people are telling me, like, you're the answer. And so if there's anything you can do, help me. I don't want to get high anymore. I don't want to live this way anymore. And it's a powerful moment because I didn't really realize it at the time, but what I was doing was what you hear people say you have to do, which is I was putting my recovery above everything, right? And people say that, like, you know, and, and a lot of people are like, yeah, that makes sense. But like, when you internalize that, what that means I was putting my recovery above everything, and God heard me. Whatever God is, you know, like, I'm not like a Christian dude. I'm not like super like tuned in to what God is. But shortly after I said that prayer, I look out the front window of, you know, the bedroom that I grew up in in my mom's house, and I see a cop like whisper something into a radio and like run into the backyard. And I'm like, oh shit, like, like, that's not what you want to see ever. And then I see there's another cop walking up to the front door. So in my head, I'm like, okay, like, I'm like, I believe I'm surrounded right now by police. And something inside of me was like, I'm not gonna try to run. I'm not gonna freak out. I walked up to the door. It was like, you guys here for me? And they're like, yeah, are you Michael Smeltzer? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, all right, let's do this. You know, like, let's just— let's go. And, you know, my mom and dad— it's pretty late, like 10, 11 PM. And my mom and dad are there watching me, you know, they do, even though I was cooperative, they, you know, they gave me a few nudges and like slammed me on the plate, you know, how cops do, like whatever, it's fine. Like these guys are Travis County, they're okay, they weren't too bad. And, you know, they kind of lay me over the hood of the car and they're cuffing me and all that. And put those cuffs on, they're super tight and they're cutting into your wrist and yeah, I'm like, this is it, man. Like, I'm going to jail. I asked him, I was like, what is this for? Because there was so much that I had— it wasn't like I knew. Yeah, there was so much I could have been getting arrested for. And, uh, I later found out it was a burglary of a habitation. Um, I had, I had gotten in, uh, broken into a woman's house that I didn't know. It was like I kind of got it like a lead from a situation, and I knew she wasn't home and went into her house, stole $50,000 worth of jewelry. Um, the most drug addict shit about this is I got $130 for that $50 grand worth of jewelry.

Let me ask you real quick, how much did you get for your mother's wedding ring?

I don't remember.

I got $100.

Yeah, something like that. I mean, that's the thing, these pawn shops, like, they are just working dudes like us.

They know, they love when we come in.

Yeah, yeah, they're like, oh, I can like 100x my money on this thing. Um, but anyway, so, and I was like, oh yeah, like, it was that. I kind of knew because I had like done some things in that situation that opened me up to getting caught. And I go to jail. I'm in this Travis County holding cell. And after you get booked in Travis County, every jail's a little different. I've had the privilege of getting to know a few different jails. Travis County, they— after they book you, you're in this— it's like, it's like a little solitary room for the first couple days. And keep in mind, I'm on day 3, day 4 of withdrawing. So I'm like, I'm like shaking or sweating, kicking in jail, sitting on that little aluminum toilet or whatever that is. And then it hit me. I like kind of remembered that prayer that I said, and I was like, oh my God, like, I didn't go get high. Like, the first way, tangible way that I remember God showing up in my recovery was with a felony, you know? And I tell that story because I always like people to understand, it's like this God idea, this recovery idea, it doesn't always work the way you think it's going to. Like, oh, the clouds parted and I saw a dove and I never did dope again. It's like, that wasn't my story, man. Like, I went to jail. It was, it was tough. Um, luckily I got bonded out. I got put on probation, which, uh, ends up being a lot easier when you're not getting high. And I get to day 5, day 6, day 7, and I'm looking back at this moment And it's like that was God doing for me what I can't do for myself. And it was crazy because I genuinely like put that intention into the universe and it came back and it worked. And so I started to buy into this, like really buy into the program, and the 12 steps saved my life. And so I don't want anybody to get it twisted when I— because life is so much bigger than the 12 steps for me now. But I'll never forget that the 12 steps saved my life. I worked that program with Mark, and I continued to like learn and grow. And, and, uh, yeah, and it was pretty special. Pretty special.

That's— and you think about it, it's like how you're praying to God. How else would he do it? Yeah, let's put you where you ain't getting dope if you tried.

Like, that's what I need.

Yeah, to get you locked up like that. Yeah, well, that's crazy. Every time you tell— the times I've heard that story, it's crazy.

Yeah, it's so real too. It's so— and here's something you haven't heard. I'll be real quick.

No, go ahead.

Day like 7 or 8, it hit me again. I almost never tell this part of the story because people are like, oh, now he's just lying. It hit me again and I'm like, I'm gonna go get high. I'm like, day 7 or 8, it's like, fuck, man, I've been through all this and I'm gonna go get high. I shit you not. So I had this Ford Explorer with missing windows, duct tape. Like a 2001 Ford Explorer.

You were hood hood.

Oh yeah, I used to have to crawl in the passenger window to get in the thing. People would think I was stealing my own car when I got in. And, uh, and so I'm driving this thing and I'm on my way to a meeting because that's what I did early on, and the thought hit me like, I'm just gonna go get high, you know. It's like that drug addict thing. And but I was like praying every day at that point, you know, giving my life to this program. Within minutes, I wrecked that car and totaled it. Yeah, I wrecked it, completely wrecked it, totaled my, you know, $600 Explorer. And it was like enough of a situation where I couldn't go get dope. And by the time that situation was resolved, I was like through that like mind state. And so like God was showing up in my life, but it was felonies and wrecked vehicles, you know?

Right. Yeah. But he got it done.

Got it done.

Dude, that's— it's so crazy. It's so crazy to know the person you are, to hear these stories, you know what I mean? It's— I know it's the best compliment we can get when We tell a story like that, people are like, I could never see that. Yeah. Like, first of all, you have no idea. Yeah. But that's the best compliment you could give me, that you can't see me. So to hear these things out of you and to know the man that you are today and how many people you help and the type of character you have, bro, it's—

it's—

you're a miracle, man.

Thank you. Likewise, man. Likewise.

For sure. When, uh, I'm trying to think when, like, my moment clicked like that. There was so many, but I can remember being, uh, one of the time, the last time I was in treatment, there was a guy that I had been in the previous treatment with. We were both vets, and so we had just spent like 6, 8 months together in the VA. So I knew him pretty well, and we'd go out, play basketball together. Like, we didn't hang out every day, but I definitely knew him well. So we end up in Austin, we end up in the same treatment center, and we're a couple weeks in, and I had started running and The running changed me to the point where I was having this different experience in treatment. I was actually present. I was— my depression was melting away. Like, the running is what transformed my experience and treatment to actually get what I needed from it. And so I was becoming a different person to the point where now I'm sitting in the front of the room instead of the back. Now I'm participating in groups and I'm giving answers, and I really, really wanted to change who I was. And I can remember looking over and he was sitting on one of the chairs over there and he started nodding out. And I was like, oh, this motherfucker's getting high in here. And I sat down. I remember going to talk to Shane, who was my sponsor at the time, and I was like, man, like, normally I would keep the penitentiary mindset of like, I'm not snitching on him, that's him, but what he does, it doesn't bother me. Like, yeah, and I would just stay away from it. But there was something in my heart that just didn't feel right about it. And I remember he had a new roommate that had just come in, and I remember sitting there with this guilt like I'm the only one in here knows that this dude's getting high. And if I don't say something, what if he dies? What if his roommate dies? And that wasn't like normal thought process for me ever. Like before, it'd be like, he dies, he dies. Like, yeah, whatever. That's what happens to us. And I remember sitting there talking to Shane and he was like, dude, so who do you want to be? Are you going to keep being Mr. Penitentiary? Are you going to be this new man with some character and some integrity and stuff like that? And so I went back and I told the treatment center what I had saw. And, you know, he did end up getting kicked out. If you're out there, man, I hope you make it. But that was something I had to do for me. And that was like my first step towards— I'm no longer going to be this fucking penitentiary hood rat motherfucker that runs around like a tough guy all the time. It's like, I don't want to be that anymore. And to think what I have in my life now with a wife and a home and a dog and a job and like all these things, it's like I wouldn't have ever got any of that had I not made that one decision to start becoming this different person.

So I'm so glad you're sharing that message because we live in a world where like these alpha male characters and you're a big dude and you got swag and people respect you, you know, you're pretty alpha, you know what I'm saying? And, and yeah, yeah, why not? And, and, uh, but like the message from those guys is always like the snitches get stitches mentality, right? And I, and I get that because like that was the worst thing you could be. Like when you, like when you were like in middle school, high school, like Like, literally the worst thing you could be in our friend group was a snitch, right? And but then you get to the place where we're at now, and it's like, I'm not gonna go out of my way to put somebody in a worse situation. But, but you realize how important honesty is in life, right? It's the most important attribute I believe in my life is honesty, being honest. And I'm not perfect, but I'm a lot better than I used to be.

For sure.

And it's not snitches versus this, that. It's— there's honest and there's dishonest. And if you're in a place where you're like honestly trying to get well, and there's other people that are honestly trying to get well, and there's a dude that's jeopardizing that, and you found that out, yeah, it's dishonest to withhold that information. That's just a fact. And it's like— and if you go from a place of love, like, I want that person to get help, I want everybody else to get help, yeah, of course I want myself to be okay.

Yeah.

That's not a— it's not a snitch mentality. It's just— it's just learning to live honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I used to have— I used to have horrible sleep problems, be up and down all night, couldn't sleep, could never sleep. And in all honesty, like, you know, I know there's so many things that played a part in it. Me running, me getting healthy, me not drinking caffeine late in the day, like all these different things. But one thing I will tell you is when I started— when I changed my life and I got honest, when my head hits the pillow, bro, I'm out. Yeah, like, I'm out. Yeah. But the amount of serenity I have when my head hits the pillow because I know how I handle my business, you know what I mean? I know I operate with character. I wouldn't sacrifice that for anybody. And any of the people, the circles I run in now, like, nobody's doing anything where anybody's got to snitch, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's— but I will do everything I need to do to ensure that I still have that serenity when my head hits the pillow tonight. So if you're doing something stupid or illegal or something that's going to get I'm going to say something because I'm not sacrificing any of this shit in my life for anybody. Yeah. Did I remember the first conversation we had? We talked about the Suboxone, but we vibed out on some rap shit. Yeah, we found out we were some— we were both some big hip-hop heads. So now you're— now you're all grown up. Yeah, you're married now. You have kids. Are you— do you still keep your ear to the street or no?

Man, I wish I could say yes, but not like I used to. Too, you know what I mean? Like, the music I listen to changes. Actually, I listen to a lot of podcasts. This phase of my life is about, like, learning, and I, like, deep dive into different categories, you know, different things. Like, I have a very eclectic and kind of, like, dynamic mindset. And I know a lot of people say that, but I mean, I, like, really go into some wormholes in some podcasts. But rap will always be a part of, like, my core, you know? You come up, like, doing the things that we did and listening to the music we did, like, Yeah, yeah. So, so I'm not, I'm not like up on Drake and Kendrick beef and all that. Like, I know it's happening, but I'm not like up on it. But I still, you know, I still kind of stay tuned in.

So, so back then, back in your hoodrat days, who were your, who were your go-tos? Who were your top, top guys or top groups?

Well, man, like, so you come up in the '90s and there's, there, there were two untouchables and everybody knows is Biggie and Pac. Right, like that. I'm not breaking any news saying that, but like, you basically just have to say that. Um, there were a lot of different— you know, you grow up in Texas and there's certain people that, uh, the world doesn't know about that, uh, were like legends in the game, you know. And people know a little more about Zero and Bun B now, but those dudes, like, from a longevity standpoint and I mean, they're just legends, but we were jamming, you know, Big Mo and Hawk and Fat Pat and Houston.

Houston.

Yeah, yeah. That, that like took the world by storm in the '90s and, and early 2000s. And so that was, that was like huge. But then, you know, there was like No Limit and Cash Money, you know, like that was, that was what it was back then, man.

I can remember being on a school. We were on a school bus. I think I was a junior in high school and we were on our way home from a game and we were sitting there having this big hip-hop talk. And I can remember I was— this is back in the early Cash Money days, right? And I was like, I'm telling you, Lil Wayne is going to be fucking huge. Yeah, I was saying Lil Wayne and Drag-On. I thought those two were going to be like—

I could see that with Drag-On. You missed on that.

Yeah, I missed hard on Drag-On. I could see Lil Wayne. Lil Wayne. Lil Wayne. I got. But, um, dude, it's so, it's so crazy just to sit back and think like, I don't know what it was about rap. I don't know what it was, but I was like infatuated with it. Yeah. Like the only thing now, if I could pay attention and if I could have paid attention to school as much as I could have with rap beefs and fucking lyrics and albums and record labels and all that stuff. If I, if I had the passion for that, that I did, or rap that I did school, I would be a fucking genius, but I just did not.

But, uh, well, those dudes would speak to us, and you got— I got to bring up Shady Aftermath, man, right? Because that was life-changing. Like, when you talk about, like, why did that resonate with us, I think about that M verse when he's like, we do it for those kids that don't have a thing except for a dream and a fucking rap magazine, those pinup pictures on their wall all day long, right? And you get into that, and it's like, I used to listen to songs like that, and like, it would hit me in a place that nobody else could even touch, like my core, right? I got chills right now just thinking about it. Like, that'll never leave me. And so, um, it's the— it's the beauty of art, right? Like, like, and we are— different generations have different art forms, but for whatever reason, like, where we come from, like, that was our art, man. That was what made us who we are.

Yeah, like, it's been so long, but I can remember sitting down in my bedroom, just sitting on my floor with my headphones on listening to that whole album, the whole Eminem album, front to back, and just mind fucking blown. Yeah, mind blown. But what albums will you say were like the most influential albums that like made you the rap fan that you were?

Man, that's such a good— what? So like, it's gonna be like a combination of— I'm gonna throw like Infinite, Slim Shady, and Marshall Mathers LP like all kind of together because that was like the storm that was Eminem. Like early on. Like, that was crazy.

Did you rap?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Freestyling, recording. I had mixtapes, the whole thing, you know. I was pretty good too. I'll show you. I was not that dude where everybody was rolling their eyes.

No, my— me and my— me and my boy Matt, we were like balls deep in it.

Oh yeah.

He just— just the other day sent me a video of— he found one of his old CDs or one of his verses and was playing it and sent me a video of it, like a throwback track. I was like, Holy shit.

You should call this episode, uh, Sean and Mike Go Balls Deep in '90s Rap. Okay, that's the— that's the title on this, right?

Like a podcast. That sounds like just a whole podcast in itself.

We're going off the rails now, but yeah, no, Chronic 2001, man. I'll never forget. So this is a slept-on album. Remember when G-Unit took off? Yeah. And then you had like the G-Unit Beg for Mercy, like every— it was like when they were all rapping over Drake beats, all those albums with like Nate Dogg hooks. And like, and then that Lloyd Banks album Hunger for More came out, bro, that was over. That was me and my buddies twisting blunts, rolling around the neighborhood listening to that stuff. Like, and then you got like, I'll tell you, people from down here, you know, in Texas, we'll always talk about the UGK albums. Paul Wall and Chameleon there, Get Your Mind Correct, like that though. And then Zero, like from Life of Joseph McVay and Look What You Did to Me all the way through, like those albums just defined a whole generation.

Yeah, yeah, the— I couldn't remember. So being from Ohio, we were— for whatever reason, I was like a melting pot. Yeah, I would borrow my CD books were They called them Bibles, the books, man. Yeah, they would damn near dislocate your shoulder trying to lift it out of the backseat.

You were cool if you had like a—

Yeah, I remember two of them, huge ones. And then I had them all up in the little thing in the visor and it's sagging down because I have so many CDs up there. But I remember, so I would just go in and I would like hear a song off Rap City, The Basement. Oh yeah. I'm like, all right, I'm going to go check out that album. And then I get the album and I'm like, all right, I love this album. What record label is this? And I would build on that. And so quickly I realized I love rap a lot.

Yeah.

And the first down south album I heard was Scarface, Untouchable.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was just like, oh my, this— that album is to me is perfect.

Yeah.

Classic. Like, front to back.

And then Face hopped on that. If you're from Ohio, that Ray Cash album, right?

My music. Yeah.

Ray Cash. Yeah.

That was the original thing we talked about. Uh-huh. I remember that bootleg and Ray Cash.

Yeah.

Right.

We were talking about Dayton Family. Yeah. Yeah. Dayton Family. See? Yeah. My boys in Texas don't know about Dayton Family. That's a Michigan thing. But yeah.

Yeah, so I'll say my most impactful albums, definitely the Eminems, but dude, Scarface, Untouchable, Dog Pound Dog Food. Oh yeah, it was huge for me. Um, Capital Punishment, Big Pun's first album.

Oh, okay.

That to me is probably one of, if not the greatest hip-hop.

I didn't deep dive into that. Uh, well, no, I— so you remember Cuban Link?

Of course.

I used to, like, for whatever reason, I took a deep dive into him, but it was like I don't remember the— like, I remember like the, you know, tracks, like the big tracks from Big Pun, but I don't remember like the—

those are the worst ones.

Okay, I need to take a deep dive.

I'll get in there on your way back to town. Listen, Big Pun, yeah, the first album, Capital Punisher. He died at the second one, so it was like a bunch of shit they just kind of put together, dude. Uh, Bone, um, East 1990 Eternal, and the one Creeping on the Come Up, the one before. That was all we had in Ohio. Like, we were bumping that.

That's probably— well, you tell me because you're from up there, but I would think that Bone Thugs is like the most prestigious, like, Ohio rap group. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't— maybe now it's MGK. I don't know. But I don't know if you can consider him rap anymore. Little shade. Disappointed. But the— I don't know. You can Google it and it's not the case, but I don't know how that East 1999 Eternal album is not the biggest-selling rap album of all time. Yeah, because literally, name me a person that didn't have that CD.

Is that— is that the one with Crossroads on it? Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy.

Yeah, first of the month.

Oh, you know what else hit hard, man? Uh, when Jay-Z dropped Hard Knock Life Volume 2, that was pretty, you know, that was pretty hard, man.

Life and Times of Sean Carter Volume 2, right?

Yeah, that— yeah, uh, yeah, I thought it was called Hard Knock Life Volume 2, but anyway, in the comments somebody will correct us. Where— yeah, whatever.

Hard Knock Life was the song off that album.

Yeah, I thought it was—

I thought the album was called— hold on, it was, uh, Reasonable Doubt: Life and Times of Sean Connery Volume 1, Volume 2. Yeah, yeah, Volume 3, because Volume 3 is Leaning on a Car.

Okay.

I'm gonna have to go back and volume 3 is the one where he has Hard Knock or Hard Knock Life.

Yeah.

And can I get a—

No, that's volume 2. I'm telling you, that's volume 2.

I'm telling you, volume 2 has—

One of us is going to be wrong. And we'll see if we'll see.

I know Jason, he's looking it up right now.

Yeah.

No, I choose the one. Choose the one that has You'll Always Be My Sunshine with Foxy Brown.

I love that. This is where the conversation— We can do another 3 hours like this. You remember in the Ferrari, the Jaguar, switching 4 lanes. You remember that?

Volume 3.

I thought that was 2, man. All right, we'll figure it out.

3 is Life and Times. Volume 2 is Hard Knock Life.

Oh, so we were both saying the same thing, but we're getting mixed up on which songs are on which. Anyway, that was big. Yeah, that was big.

Huge. What else were you into as a kid? Like, you were—

rap, basketball, basketball, basketball and football. Michigan football.

Did you get into wrestling?

No, no, no, I was not a wrestling guy.

Huge.

Which is weird too, because rap and wrestling are kind of similar, you know, like the beefs and all that stuff that may or may not be real. But no, it was all Michigan football. Anybody that knew me as a kid knew that, like, I was a Michigan football fan. I was a basketball player. I didn't want to talk about anything else. I didn't want to, you know, do anything else. That was it. Now when I look back, like, I wish I would have taken an interest in all the things that I'm taking an interest in now. But, uh, Yeah, that was what I was doing.

Who were your favorite basketball players growing up?

Man, you remember the Sacramento Kings? C. Webb, Jason Williams.

Jason Williams is my favorite of all time.

There we go. Peja Stojaković, Doug Christie, Vlade, like Bobby Jackson. That was my squad, man. I still think they got screwed and I think it was Game 6 they gave the Lakers a shot after the buzzer. It's questionable, man. I think it was rigged.

I remember when Sacramento was making their little run.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then Jason Williams left, went to Miami and then— Bibi won a ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Went and won a ring with Miami. The Charlotte Hornets were my squad growing up.

Baron Davis?

No, it was Larry Johnson.

Alonzo Mourning.

Yeah.

Okay.

A little early. So how old are you? 36. All right, so I'm a couple of years older than you.

Yeah, but still, I remember all that.

Yeah, that was like because Pittsburgh didn't have a team. So the Hornets— I loved Larry Johnson. That was like my dude. He was the very first player that I ever had his shoes.

Sick uniforms too, man. Like the pinstripes and the, like, teal.

I have 3 jerseys. One of them is a Jason Williams jersey. One of them is the teal Larry Johnson jersey. And then I have— my boy gave me a fucking Barry Bonds Pirates jersey.

Okay.

Yeah.

So Larry Johnson was rocking the notch down the middle of his— remember that haircut?

Yeah, I can remember. We lived in a trailer. I was probably in second grade and I'd watch— do you remember TGIF? Oh yeah, on Fridays you watch TGIF, Family Matters and all that.

Oh yeah.

And Larry Johnson was Grandma Ma in Family Matters.

I forgot about that.

Where him and Urkel teamed up, but he's dressed as the old lady.

I forgot about that.

And then they beat Eddie and Waldo in a 2-on-2 competition that was in the city or whatever.

Uh-huh. But man, I was watching Fresh Prince, man. I was all about Fresh Prince. That was the— that was my jam. And then, uh, uh, Wayans Bros, you remember like that?

Wayans Bros?

Yeah, yeah. Marlon and, uh, All the Wayans brothers. Yeah, yeah.

All right. Damn. Blast from the past. What's his name? Is a huge standup. The oldest brother, Keenan Ivory Wayans.

Keenan. Yeah. The whole family. The whole family's doing things.

They're like the most talented dudes ever. That's crazy. So is it a little controversial in the Michigan world to say anybody other than Tom Brady is the greatest Wolverine ever, or is everybody kind of of the same of the same mindset as Charles Woodson?

No, let me, let me tell y'all something, okay? Anybody that wants to know about Michigan football, everybody thinks like, oh, Tom Brady went to Michigan. He's like the Michigan legend. So as you know, I cover Michigan sports. Like I said, I have projects. I have Wolverine Chronicle. It's a thing that I do. And right now I'm about to release a list of the— it's one day at a time, the 100 days leading up to football season. It's gonna be the 100 greatest football players.

Really?

In Michigan history. Really? So you asked the right guy this question.

Right.

Tom Brady, when you look at just college career—

He's not even in the top 10.

He's not even in the top 50.

Really?

Bro, he's about— well, I don't wanna spoil where he's at.

Oh, so not what they became, what they did while they were at Michigan.

Yeah, yeah. Now Tom Brady's the GOAT football-wise, like pro football, like NFL, but Charles Woodson is number 1. Spoiler alert.

Oh yeah, don't— you just ruined it.

It's fine. Everybody knows.

You'll drop your list.

Anybody that's a Michigan fan knows who number 1 is, but it gets a little spicy 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. So I'll leave that for people to see later.

Desmond?

Desmond Howard's up there. He's a Heisman Trophy winner, so he's up there.

What about Timbiaka Batuka?

Man, now that's a name.

You pull—

yeah, of course, man. Of course. He's a I don't want to give it away, but he's in the 100. Oh yeah, he's top 50. He's top 50. So Biaca Batuca had still to this day the most rushing yards in a single game against Ohio State.

How many?

So, oh man, I don't know. It's like 300 and something. I need to know the exact number, but it's like north of 300, right? Yeah, so that— he's up there.

So how did— what got you into starting doing, uh, taking the Michigan sports thing kind of where you did?

And so I think I might have mentioned earlier to you, like, so my dad and I, you know, Michigan football, that was our bond. Every— well, I shouldn't say every, but like, people that have a good relationship with their parents, uh, oftentimes have like a shared interest, right?

Me and my stepdad, Pittsburgh Steelers.

Yeah, yeah. And sports, like, that, that's why I love sports, man. Like, I'll be walking through an airport and somebody sees Michigan, they're like, go blue! And I'm like, go blue! We high five. It's like a thing. I don't even know that guy. Just like brings people together. Yeah. And here's the truth about my dad. I could have told him I was into anything and he would have become obsessed with it. Like, he's a good parent. Like, he just would have been that way. But Michigan football was his thing. And man, when I saw him cussing at the TV and— like, my dad was a very unfiltered person. Like, the kindest guy you'll ever meet, but unfiltered. And the first time I saw those maize and blue winged helmets, coming out of the tunnel, and I was like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And then the first time I experienced Michigan versus Ohio State, like the greatest rivalry in all of sports, I was hooked, man. And then in 1997, so I was born in '87, so you can imagine '97 is, that's like my formative years. I'm 10 years old. I'm about to like learn how to become a human. That's when Michigan won the national championship and Charles Woodson won the Heisman. And any Nebraska fans out there, Michigan won the national championship. It was split, and so I just want to be clear, that was Michigan. But I was just hooked from that day forth. I mean, I was that like kid that wore like a Michigan shirt to school every single day, you know, like I needed people to know like the team I was representing. Fast forward many, many, many years and You know, it's 2020, Michigan's coming off really the worst season in my lifetime. It's the COVID year. The whole year was just weird. They're talking about firing Jim Harbaugh, the coach, and COVID took my dad— my dad didn't die from COVID but it took him down like kind of like a wormhole because he was a lot older. And older people during that time, like, that was scary for them, man. They didn't want to go outside. My dad very quickly developed, uh, like dementia and like Alzheimer's type stuff that was going on. Uh, he had that before, but like COVID just like sped it up. Yeah, sped it up. And, uh, so my dad, he, he faded, man, and he, he ended up passing away. And it was, it was really hard. Um, it was cool that I got to be sober and be there for him. I told a story at his funeral about how when I used to be withdrawing from drugs, withdrawing from dope, I used to be like laying on the floor and he would come in and be like 3 in the morning and he didn't know what to do and he cared about me and he used to just like rub my shoulders and rub my legs and tell me everything was gonna be okay.

Right.

And it was, which sounds weird, but it's like, you know, I was withdrawing, I was in pain, you know, so my dad was like sitting there like helping me out. And, um, when he was on the way out, he could barely talk and he was in pain and he was— he didn't fully understand what was going on and stuff. And I didn't know what to do. Um, I just like rubbed his legs and told him everything was going to be okay, you know. And, and, uh, for me to be able to like do that for him on the way out— and he found out that I was pregnant with my, my daughter, my first kid, and and we had just bought our first house. And so like my dad got to see who I was becoming and it was really cool. And so the reason I tell this story is when my dad died, I lost my Michigan guy, you know, and the next season came around. He died in the season. The last game I watched with my dad was the Rutgers game in 2021. Michigan went on— after my dad died, Michigan went on the most legendary tear, 3-year tear, in the, like, since, since the 1901 or something. Like, 3 straight Big Ten championships, 3 straight, uh, wins against Ohio State, ended with a national championship this year. It's a good time to be a Michigan fan. And that game, Michigan versus Ohio State in 2021, it was the first time we beat them in, like, many, many years, like 8 or 9 years. And, uh, the snow was falling and it was like scenic, and it was like every Michigan fan for the rest of their life will be able to tell you like where they were at during that game. And for me it was special because I felt my dad, like I felt him in that, you know, like he finally became like one with the universe, and then Michigan finally whooped that ass, you know. And it was like, it was like I knew my dad was like behind that, you know. It was very personal to me. And so after we won that game, I went on Twitter with like an account that had like 12 followers. I used to call it Go Blue from Texas, you know, like I didn't even know what it was. And I came up with this idea, Wolverine Chronicle. I'm gonna chronicle my life as a Michigan fan because I don't have my guy anymore. I'm gonna just create the community around me. And I've had like a lot of traction, a lot of success with that, and it's been cool. I got like a little podcast and that 12-follower thing has, you know, about 12,000 followers now, which, you know, for Michigan fans, you know, like, that's pretty good. And it's a way that I can, like, still be me and still feel my dad, right, in sports.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's one of the most beautiful stories I think I've ever heard. Seriously, that made it— damn.

Yeah, it's— I was holding— I was kind of holding back tears a little bit.

It's—

that's It's very special to me. And I used to, like, early in recovery, I would hide who I really am. Like, when the rap conversation came up that you brought up, I'd be like, oh, I don't, I don't know, you know, like, I don't want to talk, I don't want to tell people I used to freestyle, you know, I don't want to, like, Michigan sports, like, doesn't seem that important now. Like, I'm just like unapologetically confident about who I am. And it's one of the things I like about you, man, is like, you're doing this podcast and you bringing on interesting people and you're putting yourself out there, which is not easy. Like, people can sit in the comments and talk shit on Facebook and Instagram. It's like, those people don't even understand what it takes to like sit down in front of people and have like a real conversation. Um, like, I know you are doing it too, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, dude, that was a good one. Oh yeah, dude, number one, I can't thank you enough for fucking coming in, man. The, the amount of vulnerability you show and the stories you tell, man, you're You're one of the people I look up to in this recovery community, man. Like, you're a beacon of hope. Your character's second to none, man. And I love you, dude. Honored to have you in here. Honored for you to tell a little bit of your story to the audience and everything. And I just— I can't thank you enough, bro.

Thank you, dude. The pleasure is mine, legitimately. Like, you're a brother of mine for life, man. And you're right, it's cool that you and I get to do do these things that we love. I want to shout out really quickly The Last Resort Recovery Center, man. It's been life-changing to be a part of an organization that embodies what I believe, like, good treatment is. And so if there's anybody out there that needs help, like, The Last Resort in Smithville, Texas, we have a little family of programs that are doing really special work. And so, Sean, thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. Can't wait to have you back.

Yes, sir.

Love you, man.

Love you too, buddy.

Hell yeah. Hold on, hold on. I didn't forget. So, damn, fuck, I did it for you.

Piece it together.

What do you remember? This? I am statements.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So that's what— that's what we do.

No, I should have prepared, but I guess it's better if I don't know. Just.

All right. So the way we like to finish up the podcast is everybody— everybody's heard your story. They've got to know you. But if you'd be willing to take a look in your camera and maybe throw out some I am statements to let them know who Mike Smeltzer it really is.

Yeah, absolutely. I am real. I am recovered. I am honest. I'm a dad. I'm a businessman. I'm spiritual. I'm into crypto. I'm a Michigan fan. Uh, I am love.

Love you, brother. Thank you, man. ¡Hola!