How to Stay. When to Go

Hi, welcome to Sex Love Power. I'm your host, Michelle Lisenberry Christensen. I'm a relationship and sex coach who's worked for 24 years with executives and business founders. And by popular demand, I've focused on their intimate relationships for about the last dozen years as they sought my coaching to push the envelope on how good they could have it in life and in love and sexual. My extraordinary high performance clients have blessed me with a wealth of knowledge about how to create relationships that aren't just successful, but are truly great. This podcast is where I convene the conversations we really need to be having about love and sex so that you can create those same world class results in your relationship. If you're realizing your partner isn't showing up with the capacity for love or sex or vibrancy that you want, deserve and need, or if you've been asking for what you need and then they maybe make some moves toward it, but then they take steps backwards and you find yourself asking, am I an idiot for staying when I have made it so clear what I need and my partner just doesn't seem to be changing? Or if you long for a depth of love and sex that you wonder if your partner is ever going to even be capable of meeting you in. Well, this episode's for you. I gotta give a little caveat as we begin recording. Here I am in Maui and there's no way to get away from the sound of the ocean in this condo. So you may hear a little bit of wave action in the background and if it sounds like I'm near the ocean, that's why. So if what I share in this episode makes you slam your hand on the table and shout, yes, thank you. This is what I've been feeling. This is what I've been trying to express. You named it, Then maybe this is a good episode to share with your partner. This episode is a deeply personal one for me and Kurt. You need to know up front that in a different universe, I'd have him on here with me talking about this with you, and that's not who he is. But also, if you're hearing this now, it's because he gave me the green light to share the episode that I made. Sharing our story. From my perspective, we really are both on a mission to help other couples create the love and sex they really want and to grow into the capacity to have a vibrant life giving love, even if we didn't grow up learning how to create that. He and I just work on this mission in different ways. He is an introverted, intensely private person. And he's explored so much of his own cultural conditioning, and he's blown past the models of masculinity and marriage and fatherhood that he grew up with. He isn't really one to talk about himself, but I'm so grateful for his partnership in my own growth and his vulnerability in letting me be transparent about our growth together. And I'm thankful for his support and encouragement in my work. So, with Kurt's permission, I'm going to share why it's so hard for many of us to create a really vibrant, fully loving and intimate relationship. I'll share Kurt's and my story of leaning into our growth in our marriage so that we could build a love like none we had ever seen. And I'll tell you what I know about how to know when to stay and dig into your own work and when to shift or end your relationship and do the next stage of your growth outside this relationship. I want you to feel seen and supported by this episode, to feel that I really get how painful a relationship can be when it's good in many ways and in other ways, it's unworkable to the point that you really want to give up. I have been there, and I spent years and years working through those challenges. And I'm grateful to be able today to be glad to still be with my very human husband and to be able to help others who want to create outrageous love inside the imperfect relationship they already have. So let's dive in. First, why is it so hard to create a really vibrant, fully loving and intimate relationship? Maybe it's not hard for everybody. There are some people who look from a distance when you haven't heard their story, like love's easy for them. That may be the truth. It may really be as easy as it looks. Different souls have their deepest learning in different domains of life. For some people, it's relationship. Whether the biggest lessons come in intimate partnership or in parenting, or with one's own parents or friends or siblings. For other people, their deepest learning is in their work or in their relationship. To money, to abundance, to supply. For still others, the hottest, most intense experiences have to do with being in a body, with their health and their wellness, their energy, or with physical performance and adventure and challenge. There's lots of different ways we wake up in this lifetime. So if it looks to you like someone else's marriage is easy, maybe it is. Maybe their deeper learning in life is coming in other areas. And as I have learned from working with thousands of Couples. Now, you can't tell from the COVID of the book what plot twists the story contains. A couple might look so loving and content from a distance, but harbor pain and conflict, sexual challenges, or painful losses that you can't see. So it never serves us to compare our relationship to others or to say, relationship supposed to be easy if you're with the right person. That's just absolutely not supported by fact. Ease in your relationship is a worthwhile goal to work toward with your partner, and even more so, a worthwhile goal to work toward within yourself. But it's not a quality by which to assess your relationship like it's a house you're thinking of buying. And ease is measured in square feet. That's not how it works. And this is part of the reason it's so hard for some of us to create a really vibrant, fully loving and intimate relationship. Because we're carrying that expectation that we don't have to create it, that it's supposed to come with vibrancy. It's supposed to come with the loving feeling and the deep intimacy. And that if we're not finding those features front and center, it means one of three things. That there's something wrong with our partner, that there's something wrong with us. Or third, maybe they're okay and we're okay, but we simply do not belong together. But you know what? If the relationship domain is a domain of tremendous spiritual, emotional and mental growth in this life, and it almost certainly is for you, if, A, you want a lot in this area, and B, you're finding yourself dissatisfied with what you're experiencing right now, then that means that this is a DIY adventure for you. The aim of relationship for people like us, because I really am one of you as well. For people who came here to learn love, to learn erotic synergy, to learn intimacy, to learn is not the satisfaction and ease and yummy feeling we crave. That is not the goal. No, the actual aim is the awakening that we'll need to experience in order to create those feelings. The feelings are the bait. They're the lure that draws us into the adventure that the Divine actually wants us to have here. And once we really get that, that the way we want to feel in love is worth going for, but that it's not the marker of right relationship or wrong relationship, and it's not even, quite frankly, the point, when it comes right down to it, it's just the incentive, then our ability to create the kind of relationship experience we really want to have is dramatically expanded because we can seek the consciousness rather than childishly demanding the prizes, the goodies, the ways we want our partner to make us feel. When we recognize that we came to this relationship not to feel good a priori, but to wake up and to feel good as a result of our awakening. When we recognize that as we wake up in the relationship, we feel more and more of the time the way we want to feel in it. That is when we harness the power to create what we really want. And that is when our love begins to feel easy and expansive and, honestly, quite magical. So that's the answer to the first question. Why is it so hard to create the kind of relationship that we want? If it's hard for you, that's why. Because this is your life's work. And if your partner is wonderful in many ways and they frustrate the shit out of you in other ways, you're in the right place. I can relate, and I know how to help. So the second thing I said that we would cover here, speaking of partners who are wonderful and drive us bonkers, I promised I would talk about how Kurt and I have leaned into our growth in our marriage so that we could build a love that surpasses what we were shown how to have as we were growing up. Or shown really anywhere in our culture. Now. Kurt and I have been together since 1997. We got married in 2000, and in that time we've worked through a lifetime's worth of issues. We came into this relationship looking like an adorable couple. He was an architecture student. I was a budding executive coach. We had globetrotting adventures. And even from those very early days, we would go in our dreams and meet each other through lucid dreaming. We had a gorgeous wedding celebration with family and friends from all over the country and other places in the world that lasted for several gorgeous July days in Seattle. And that was like a faraway, exotic destination at the end of the line for a lot of our guests. We looked really great from the outside, but our lifelong friends can tell you those early days were not all wine and roses. In fact, they contained a bit too much beer and a bit too many books and throw pillows and dinners out. In the early years, before and after our wedding, we had to begin to confront our issues or they were going to tear us apart. Kurt drank to deal with his social anxiety and his work stress. I spent more money than I had to try to feel like I was successful. We had differences in our temperaments that caused tremendous pain for us both. Kurt is a gregarious Introvert. I'm an extrovert, but I'm so highly sensitive that I have a lot of introverted tendencies as well. There were so many times when it seemed to me that we were just plain incompatible. That I could never be fully self realized, truly fulfilled, or deeply content while I was connected to this map to the exclusion of others. And frankly, I'd never been with just one man for that long. But whenever I prayed, what do I do? I heard this still small voice that would simply say, stay. I would curse and cry in response. I was so pissed. It felt so unfair, so not what I wanted, and yet so clear. The message was crystal clear in my heart. This is hard, but it's worthwhile work. I was like a frustrated child and I kept asking for permission to walk away. And I never got it. So I did the work. We did the work. We went to Tantra workshops to learn more about how to connect deeply with our bodies and our hearts. We would apply what we learned and go to mind blowing places together. But then after we came closer, we would retreat into a sexual stalemate that might last for weeks or for months, leaving us less intimate than before. And then my food addiction really kicked in. I would eat my pain, I would eat my hurt. I would eat at curd like, don't you see how hungry I am? And I would exacerbate my growing weight problem and even bigger than that, my numbness from myself. We had intense, horrible arguments that left us both exhausted and emotionally hungover for days. I would fall apart emotionally when we fight. I felt like a paper bag from the grocery store full of cans. But then you got the bottom of the bag wet, just like the bottom would fall out of me. We'd both get so plugged in that we wouldn't put those normal, healthy limits on our behavior that you have to have so that you don't deteriorate the relationship when you argue. And then when we were so battered emotionally, we would turn to each other for comfort. We'd just try to push all that under the rug and patch things up enough to keep going. We never wanted to not be together. But at the same time, being together was explosive and it was painful. What helped me to stay was the faith that at some level a power greater than me or Kurt was at work. I felt deeply that on one level I had chosen him. And even though on that level I wanted to unchoose him. Thank you very much. Many a day, on a deeper level, he had been selected for me by something larger than myself. He had been hand picked. Not just for my happiness, for my contentment, or for my getting what I thought I wanted. He had been chosen for my growth, for my evolution, for my getting what I needed. For my becoming who I was destined to become. His eyes, his smile, his arms and hands, his laugh. His way of seeing the world. All the things I adored about him I came to see were just the lure that hooked my personality. So that I would come in close and not want to leave this man and get the medicine I needed through this relationship. And on the days when those lures were not enough, when I was defiant and I thought, fuck this shit. I deserve so much better than this. It is not supposed to be this much work. What helped me stay was the message that I heard back. You're right. You do deserve better than what you're experiencing with Kurt right now. You are meant for happiness, for pleasure, for intimacy and joy. And no, he is not blameless here. He has growth and change to do. And if you leave him, he will continue his work and you will continue yours. But you'll have to start over. You'll go through that period of delusion again where you think you've chosen better this time. And then a few years from now, since you cut your learning short with Kurt, you'll be back in this exact same spot. A few years older, but faced again with the truth. Wherever you go, darling, there you are. And the suffering you find in this relationship today, you will find again wherever you go, inside a relationship or outside of any relationship. Because these seeds of suffering are uniquely yours. These stories and hurts you carry are your samskaras to heal in this lifetime. These are the knots in your consciousness that you came to unravel. Stay. Untie them. Right here. This is a good man. He is a good man with whom to do this work. Feel free to start over if you like. That is your choice. But know that your work will remain the same. That was the message I got. And I do not mean to imply that I know what's happening in your relationship. Your partner might not be the right person with whom to pursue this work. And in a few minutes I'll share some of the indicators I look for to know how to advise a couple. Whether digging in and doing the work together a better idea, or whether their learning is probably better served apart because it's not for everyone. But that was what I heard. And if that message resonates for you, if your feeling about your partner in both the dark side and the light side of that feeling matches the Dark and the light of how I have felt about Kurt through the years. I hope this gives you strength. I never mean to imply that if your relationship is a abusive physically or emotionally, that you need to stay in order to learn something that is not a conducive learning environment. We can never learn when we're not safe. And if you have chosen a partner who actually physically hurts you or emotionally diminishes you, then setting the limit with that person and asking them to stop trying to get them help to not be an abuser is. Is a great first step if you want to take that. And if you're with an abuser, some people are situational abusers and some people are characterological abusers. So you need professional help there locally to discern if you're with a characterological abuser because that person is likely to move in the direction of killing you. That is not a learning process for you. Please get safe. You deserve that if the two of you have a relationship that is situationally abusive. John Gottman talks a lot about this, and it's sort of controversial, but Kurtz and my relationship could have been characterized as abusive in both directions. And it was because we were so. In our amygdalas, we were so reactive to one another that both of us behaved in ways that were wildly inappropriate, unsafe, not cool. And it didn't mean that either of us was an abuser. We just needed to settle down and grow up. So that was something we could do together. But if there's any gray area for you, get help, get safe, please hear that. So I never did leave my relationship because I could see that it was about my learning, my growth. Pema Chodron is one of my favorite Buddhist teachers, and she writes about the wisdom of no escape. That realization that I could escape my marriage, but that I will never escape my learning has helped me stay, and I'm so very glad it did. So Kurt and I have been able to stick it out together and dig deep. And we've learned through time to pay more attention to the voice within that tells us what our relationship can become than we pay to the models we saw around us as kids or even the marriages we see around us today. We do strive to find friends and mentors who have what we want, but to a great extent, we're having to build that vision and that community for ourselves because we have already come so much further than most people even aspire to in their relationship. In an era when many people are leaning in the direction of either polyamorous relationships or divorcing to try their luck with a different monogamous partner. And when most of the people who stay married seem to do so by settling into a ho hum kind of stalemate, often aided by various forms of self medication, like like wine, shopping, food, recreational drugs. We are devoted to making monogamy the hottest place on earth, and to making successive decades together deeper and sweeter and hotter, even though we don't see many other people building that kind of love through the years. So that's why we lean into our growth, individually and together, day after day, to build a legacy of love that nourishes us throughout our lifetime, that fuels our service in the world, and that leaves a legacy that outlives us both. Now, in this episode, I made a third promise. I said I'd share with you what I've learned about how to know when to stay and dig into your own work and when to shift or end your relationship and do your growing outside the relationship. I have to say I know I sound very pro marriage and very pro monogamy. For myself personally, I am. This is where I belong and I'm learning and growing phenomenally here, if not always painlessly. But that's not to say I'm dogmatic or that I think that staying is the right answer for everyone. I want to share a couple of the indicators that tell me when staying is a good idea and when leaving is a good idea. So first, digging in, doing more healing, learning and expansion yourself inside the relationship is a good idea when first you really love a lot of things about your partner. You like them as a person. You know them to be good and decent and someone whose qualities are worth learning from. Those are good signs that this is a person you can learn and grow with, in whose presence you can learn and grow yourself. Now that holds true even if it seems like they're not as into growing and learning as you are. The second indicator? Your partner is open to growth and change. And these next four words are really important. They're open to growth and change in their own way. They have a way all their own of growing and changing. It will not match your way. Now I'm a coach. I read psychology and spirituality books for fun. Growth is my jam. If I were married to someone as growthy as I am, they would probably drive me crazy. I'd like to think that someone who would get as excited as I do over a book or a workshop would be really great. But like everything I know, it would have its drawbacks too. I have come to see that the way that my husband is less into personal development than I am is actually a blessing. He grounds me. He helps me keep perspective. He holds the corner of our picnic blanket that says, things are pretty good as they are. We are pretty good as we are. And that helps me find contentment, which is not easy for me to find. I hold the other corner of the picnic blanket that says we can learn and expand and grow and discover and explore, and that helps both of us find adventure and unfoldment. It's the tension between the two that creates the best relationship. Now, all of that to say your partner, like mine, will not be into growth in the exact same way you are. And that is good news. What tells me that someone is worth staying with when their partner's wondering is that they do, over time, tend to accept influence to some extent. They do tend to take on board feedback that you give them. If this is a big if, if you give it in a loving way and aren't either domineering or passive aggressive about it. Bad dom or bad sub, which we talk about this in other episodes. And I want to emphasize that you may not have been giving feedback in a way that could have been well received or acted upon. Many people don't. And I have sure given Kurt a lot of feedback and a lot of what I thought were requests, but that were pretty much impossible to respond constructively to unless he'd been a complete bodhisattva himself. So when I'm looking with someone at this should I stay or should I go? Question, I. I look at does your partner make proactive moves when given actionable feedback or requests? Not when being criticized, not when being complained at, but when you make clear, direct, shaming, free, kind requests when you offer support for them to become the way that you would like them to be. We almost always have to back up when I'm talking with someone about this and remodel the kinds of communication that they're giving as as a partner so that their partner has a fair chance to respond to something that's constructive and congruent. So that's its own whole conversation. But we'll just wrap this up by looking at when you're congruent and in earnest. Does your partner earnestly endeavor to show up in ways that work well for you? Now, the third indicator, and this one might sound kind of funny, but that you're with a good person to keep growing with, is that you're highly reactive to your partner. You get intensely triggered by them. I put this in the stay category because you're standing on sacred ground. When you're close to your triggers, this very spot is where you have the potential to rewire your own reactivity. Hopping to a circumstance that's less triggering just delays your next reaction. It isn't really a positive change in your life. Learning to regulate yourself in the presence of your triggers, becoming the person whose internal boundaries allow them to be in the presence of previously triggering material and not be as reactive, that is a positive change in your life and in your spirit. That is what we're here for. We're not here for relief from the trigger. We are here to eclipse it with our own grounding, to settle down together and become more resilient, more emotionally mature, more evolved. Kurt can trigger my loneliness like no one else on this planet. He can trigger my rage. He can trigger my feelings of being unwanted, unseen, unheard. Phew, that man. And those are some of the greatest ways he blesses me. Quite frankly, I thank him for giving me those unparalleled opportunities to work on myself. My mentor, Terry Real, and his wife Belinda, taught us that. Just say, well, thank you. Thank you for this chance to work on myself. All of the triggering is, to a huge extent, my perception. It isn't really the reality of what's happening, that, you know, he's causing me to be lonely. He's causing me to be angry. He's. He doesn't want me. He doesn't see me, he doesn't hear me. I can't get what I need here. Those aren't real as much as they are the triggering of my old patterns and stories. And if I left to find, in my words, when I'm in a reactive state, someone who wants me, someone who can see me, someone who can hear me. I need to find somebody who's available for intimacy. I need to find somebody less punitive, less withholding. You know, those are the ways that I felt when I wanted to go. If I'd done that, I wouldn't have found my own capacity to see and hear and hold myself and to dive under the tsunami of hurt and rage and find the deeper truth of myself and of Kurt and the truth of the relationship that that always was there, that he can see me and hold me. He is available for intimacy. He isn't entirely anyway punitive or withholding. He can bring up those qualities. Those things are real for him. Those are part of his learning. But sticking it out and learning together is what has made available for me. The seeing and holding, the intimacy, the safety that I wanted to Leave to go find somewhere else. So for me, staying was the right move. Now, here are some indicators that leaving is probably the more healing, expansive move. The way to learn the most first, when your partner is not someone whose personal qualities are admirable, decent or healthy for them or for you or for other people to be around, if the qualities that your partner demonstrates day in and day out, when they're not triggered, when you're not triggered, if you look at them, when you're in a perfectly grounded, calm, happy, loving space and you can see with clear eyes, oh, yeah, he's not a very good person then. If you have children, you don't necessarily want them to spend all their time with that person. You've got to keep in mind that they're going to spend part of their time with them without you around. And for many of my clients and friends, that's difficult too. Having their kids have, you know, live part of the time with someone who's not necessarily a great parent or an admirable person, but each child has their own path as well. And my dad was a lovely person on some levels and kind of a child on other levels. And definitely my every other weekend with him was full of a lot of fast food meals and his girlfriend of the week. And, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of ways that kids can survive those experiences. But when you look at your partner and you don't have any love, admiration, or very little warmth for them, that may be because the love is already dead or wasn't ever there. The second clue that I see that leaving is probably more healing is that they're on a negative trajectory in their life. Whether that's physical, mental, emotional or spiritual or more than one of those, they're deteriorating. They won't take care of themselves. They seem to have a kind of a death wish at some level. And that could look very socially acceptable. Just overworking. They might look like a really great provider, but there's something being hollowed out inside, or they're sinking into depression and they won't do anything about it. That's the key with this one, is that they won't reach for help to shift in that trajectory. So on this point, see above. You know, I said, when asked in a way that could reasonably be expected to be responded to. So you can't complain to someone that they're depressed and demand that they get help and expect that to create good results. But there are ways to support someone who is losing themselves in their work, in mental health issues, in substance abuse. The There are ways to be really clear yourself about what you will and won't stick around for what you will and won't support, and to ask them to change their trajectory. So we can't expect anyone to overcome something that is huge and debilitating overnight. I know I'm years into my own recovery journey and I'm far from healed, you know, totally on all levels. But my family can certainly see that I work it every single day, and I'm all here now. You know, I'm not abusing food the way that I used to, and it's crystal clear what trajectory I'm on. So you should be able to see that. That if your partner has one of those anchors that threatens to drag them to the bottom of the sea, you should be able to see them endeavoring to stay on a positive trajectory. And if they can't stay, then you too will be dragged to the bottom of the sea by that. So there you have it. We've looked at why it's so hard for many of us to create a really vibrant, loving and intimate relationship. We looked at Kurt's and my story of leaning into our growth and our marriage to build the kind of love that we wanted but that we couldn't find models for around us. And we've looked at what I know about how to know whether to stay and dig into your own work or to shift and end your relationship and do your growing outside the relationship. So please reflect back on what you've heard here and pull out the single most useful distinction or idea or message for you and go apply it in your own relationship. I would love to hear what you're taking away and what questions you have. My free Conscious Couples Circle is the place to continue the conversation. You can share your experiences, ask questions, and get more actionable ideas for creating the love and sex you deeply desire and in ways that evolve you both. It's all happening@society.lizenberry.com that link is in the show notes@lizenberry.com Episode 033 if you've enjoyed this episode or other episodes, please leave a review. Because reviews really help new listeners find the podcast and that helps us grow the positive impact that these conversations can have. So please go leave a review right now with just a few words about what the show gives you. I would so, so appreciate that. And hey, have you subscribed to the podcast? You're gonna want to so that you never miss an episode. Please go to the app where you listen. Hit that subscribe button and that way, you're always gonna get notifications of new episodes each week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Michelle Lizenberry Christensen, and this has been Sex, Love Power. I'll be back here next week with the next episode, and until then, may the light within you illuminate the world around you.