Safe surrender. Asking him to lead. Erotic transcendence.

Welcome to Sex Love Power, the podcast that teaches powerful women how to get fully met, handled, deeply partnered with, and totally turned on in their relationships. I'm your host, Michelle Lisenberry Christensen. We're going to use brain science, intersectional feminism, research based relationship skills, and ancient erotic wisdom practices to create the love and sexual you really want. Let's go. And I initiated a conversation with my dear friend Jessica, and I'll tell you why in a minute. But this conversation went places I didn't even anticipate because she is so brilliant and she's so frank with her own experience and she can tie in so many pieces of research. All I had to do was just listen and record. And I think that she brings up some really powerful connections between women's brilliant minds and the difficulty that we have then showing up in the bedroom in the way that we want to, the challenges that being a feminist presents when we want to create satisfying, enjoyable sexual connections. The link to possible childhood either overt trauma or just the basic trauma of growing up female in a patriarchy, and so many other pieces. My guest today is Dr. Jessica Pullins. She's a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in the treatment of trauma, post traumatic stress disorder, complex PTSD and chronic pain. But that's not really why I invited her. I invited her because she's one of my best friends in this world and we've been friends since about the late 1800s. So we know each other really well. And we both know that we have these brilliant, neurodivergent minds and shining feminist hearts and a profound commitment to full aliveness. So we can really go there together. And that's what we want to do with all of you. So have a listen. I can't wait to hear what this brings up for you.

This issue of wanting to be led is something that I have been struggling with for years and years and only have recently manifested it and started actively working on it probably in the past eight months, I would say. So this is very fresh for me for background because I think it's important and I think a lot of the people you work with, I'm sure will talk about similar things. There was a lot of sort of stigmatized sexuality in my childhood home. There was a sex addict father. There was all kinds of inappropriate boundaries around comments. There was a lot of body shaming. There was. My mother had a lot of shame that I sort of internalized. And so there was. There's a lot at play, apart from all the cultural stuff that we do to women around body image worth Outside of beauty, those things. And then another piece of the puzzle for me is that I consider myself a feminist. And feminists are supposed to act in certain ways in the bedroom, you know. So I've been reflecting on this a lot, and it's a problem that I really always located in myself because I always had partners that would be thoughtful, that would ask what I wanted, that tried their hardest to do what they thought I would want, but when they would ask, it was this rapid fire process where I would be afraid to answer the question and then I would go into a freeze response and I actually would not be able to talk and I wouldn't even be able to think what my answer was. And I've noticed that for years and years and years, pretty much since I've been sexual. And my thought process after the fact was always, I, I have to get over that. I have to be able to talk, I have to get out of this fear response. There's something wrong with me. This is a stupid problem. I should be able to talk about it. He's being nice, he's asking me, blah, blah, blah. So I would sort of beat myself up about, why are you freezing when somebody asks you what you want? Right? And then that would lead into me not having as much pleasure in sex as I wanted to and kind of retreating and the other person getting frustrated. It's just very chronic problem. And so it was also discordant with how I am in the rest of my life, which is articulate, clear thinking, driven, confident, successful. I can lead, I can plan, I can visualize, I'm creative. But when it came to this one issue, everything just completely shut down like it was, there was nobody home when this was happening. And I wouldn't say I was dissociated, but I was in an absolute freeze response and couldn't talk. And so what has changed is in the past two years I've been with this very loving, wonderful partner. And I was noticing the problems start to happen again. And I didn't want it to. I didn't want it to ruin our relationship or affect our relationship. And so I basically decided to talk to him about it one day. And I, instead of sort of getting down on myself, I just spoke about it from a kind of observing sense. And I said, I noticed a pattern in myself. I'm going to tell you what this pattern is and maybe we can work on this together. And so I explained the pattern of where he's asking me what I want. Do you like this? Do you want me to do this. And it's all. He's asking all the right questions. It's the sort of consent language that we want. It's respectful, it's gentle, it's loving. And I said, and my response to that is to freeze and not be able to talk. And. And so that's why you will see me physically freeze. I can't answer you. I'll say, no, I'll actually. The only thing I can get out is no. You want me to do that? No. You want me to do this? No, it's the only word I can do. And so I said, I see it starting to wither, our sexuality, and I don't want that to happen. But I also have been working on this for so long, I can't fix this particular response. So the only thing I can think of is, you just need to tell me. You need to start telling me, tell me what to do and I will follow it. And not only do I follow it, I actually have a sexual. I have an arousal response to it. And so if we go in the bedroom, instead of you saying, hey, should we go in the bedroom? Say to me, I'm going to take you into the bedroom. Totally different response in my body if you do it that way, when we get into the room, instead of saying, would you take your clothes off? Take your clothes off right now. Right? Totally different response. And I find myself. Instead of feeling frozen, I find myself in more of a, like. It's almost like a receptive trance state. And it's very. It's sort of accepted, exciting instead of fearful. Now, when I told him this about this pattern and this awareness I was having, I was so ashamed of it because I thought it was such a defect that I just, like, cried and cried and cried and just had this very. My body responds to it. I froze again when I was trying to talk to him about it, had this emotional response to it. And he just listened and he said, well, no, this is really good information. And I think we can figure stuff out about this. There's been a deepening of our connection because of the level of trust required from both of us to be able to do that. So it's been remarkable. It just completely, like, revitalized him sexually, completely opened me back up into feeling safe. But we also know that it is essentially play and it applies in that arena only. And when we get outside of that arena, we are peers and we are equitable. And I contribute in these ways, he contributes in these ways, and they're not gendered ways. It's really, really interesting. It's made us more balanced. Having this understanding of me needing to not make a single decision except based on the sensations that I'm having. And that's it. And it actually allows me to feel, it allows my brain to be quiet and to only focus on sensation. And I do not, I've never had that experience before and I don't have it anywhere else in my life because I spend all my time thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking. Right. As you know, you're the same way. And the thing about it that's so remarkably remarkable to me, that's also paradoxical is by being led, I'm maximized. It's crazy to me that by being led, by being safely submissive, by being held, by being handled, I feel this optimization of my speed, spirit of my self and it just is sort of sublime. It's incredible. So that's what I have to say about that. Wow. I hope that's what you were after.

That's fantastic.

Thank you, thank you.

And I'm so happy for you.

It's pretty gorgeous. Yeah, Super. Great.

Well, like in a position of being at effect rather than at cause.

Exactly, exactly.

Being held and led, but also like being safe because you're clear.

Exactly right. And that at any point I can say to him, and what's amazing is in that state I can actually talk. I can say, do that. No, please don't do that. I do like that. That doesn't feel great. Because I have to be able to talk in that state. I have to be able to say like, this feels safe. This does not feel safe. Right.

The consent has to be ongoing and crystal clear.

Exactly, crystal clear. And it's part of the contract. And so for whatever reason, and you know, I go into thinking, is it neurochemical? I don't even know. But for whatever reason, in that situation I can actually relax. And I do not have a fear response. I have a. I have a kind of extreme excitement within safety response, which from what I know about the nervous system, is our sort of highest level order of a social connection response.

Right, so we're in your PFC now.

Exactly, exactly. That's exactly right.

You know when you said, I'm thinking all the time, I think there's probably a couple of women who aren't here right now who do that.

I don't know, it might just be us. Yeah, maybe.

But maybe we'll find some other couple, three who think similar. And it's. There's nothing, nothing short of a full erotic surrender in my experience. Either that can shut off this brain.

I didn't know that was. Actually, I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't. I didn't. I was. I was using my same planning, strategize, sequencing. If I do this, then this happens, then this will happen. Then like I was lost intellectualizing sex. And I had no idea that this was even an option, to be honest. No idea. I mean, I'm a psychologist, so I research things. And the people in this community are healthier in their general communication, healthier in terms of mood, in terms of life satisfaction, in terms. In terms of sense of self. And the relationships deepen. And the thing about it, to me that was the most fascinating was this concept of subspace. Have you heard about that? That's obviously some kind of neurological state that gets accessed by erotic. What did you call it? Erotic. Something open. Openness. Submission. You call. You had a great surrender. Surrender. Thank you. Yes. So erotic surrender. There's something about not. Not just the. It's not just a function of the orgasm. There's this. There's this, like. I think it's an endorphin surge or an oxytocin surgery. There's some kind of chemical cocktail that floods us in that state of erotic surrender that leads us to go into the subspace trance. And in that trance, I also can't really speak for a while. I'm sort of subverbal after we're done, but not frozen. Not frozen at all. Fully relaxed. Fully relaxed. And we.

Maybe not subverbal. Maybe. Maybe transverbal.

There we go. It feels like that. It feels trans. Verbal. It feels like. I don't need to. I don't need to talk. Yeah. I'm so at peace. I'm so. I'm so. I don't know, maybe it's enlightened. Maybe it's elevated. Maybe it's integrated. Maybe it's just blissed out, high on endogenous drugs. I don't know. Satiated, Satiated, all those things, but just bliss. It's just blissful. And you don't have to. You don't have to speak when you're in that. There's no planning, there's no. You don't want to. You don't want to break it, you know, so we. It's. It's amazing. I didn't know it was a thing. So there we go.

Wow.

Thank you. And the part that's, like, really fascinating in a very new way for me is like the beginning, where you described what it's been like for you in the past and that frozen state. And it has me thinking about. And I definitely have conversations with couples about her trauma responses, which are, as you said, often personal, because so many women have personal. Pretty big T trauma. And then every single woman, bar none, has little T trauma around sexuality by virtue of having grown up on earth.

Yeah.

And so. But the way that assertiveness on the part of one's partner can set to safety that trauma, it seems like a paradox. Right?

Exactly.

I'm going to manage you now, and you're going to feel more safe than you would with the ambiguity of a more egalitarian way of relating.

That's exactly right. What gives? It's really weird. I don't understand it. My. Myself, I think that I don't understand it, that that's the only thing I can say. It's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be egalitarian. We're supposed to give verbal consent. We're supposed to know, I will like it if you do this. Please do this. There's something about. There's something about the transaction that turned on a trauma response for me.

Yeah.

And I think that it's.

It's so complex, and there's so many.

Contrasting expectations that I think for a lot of us, maybe in ways as stark as you experience, and maybe for some other women, it's more subtle. And a more subtle form might simply be, I am not turned on. I cannot respond to this. There is no lubrication.

There is no.

I'm just not. This is not doing it for me. Because she has to think too much. She has to perform, and she has to meet, like, those expectations of, like, what my mom said when I was four. And then what. I think a feminist is supposed to.

Be in the bedroom.

And now I'm thinking and I'm up in my head.

That's right.

No other parts of me are responding.

I just think working hard. I think it's being up in your head. I think that's what it is. Because what's in my head is a list of the seven patients I just saw today. Every meal I have to make for myself and my daughter. How many times did the dogs pee and poop today? Did I give them their medication? I haven't done that load of laundry. Who did I forget to respond to? You know, like, I don't want. Do you like being touched that way? Yes or no in that list? I don't. I don't want to have to think about it. I just want I want to get out of my brain with the sexual. Not even just the sexual stuff, just the connecting stuff, the intimacy stuff. Right. I just want to be in the feeling of it. I don't want to have to think about it. I don't have to make choices about it. So I. And I swear to God, it just connects to something primitive that we don't. We have lost a name for it because we pretend to be civilized, but there's some primate thing at work.

Yeah, well, there's a name I use for it. Polarity. There's something we're hungry for. Where, like, right now, let's play like you're the boss, right? And then later, we'll play like, I'm the boss. Like, there are times for both of it. But, like, let's really play. Yeah, let's step outside how we are out there and where you take out the trash and I do the dishes, and then the next time, vice versa. And, like, we're both grownups doing that in here. We're playmates, right? We are animals. And we are like. And you're not asking me because we have a consent container we created together.

Exactly.

And, like, can we give a message to male partners who go, oh, God, but what if I do it wrong? She's saying she doesn't want to give me guidance. She doesn't want to have that conversation about, should I touch you this way, should I touch you that way? Like, but I'm going to screw it up.

That's not. That's the man getting into his head. That's the man being afraid of judgment. That's the man being afraid of being shamed and being laughed at. Right. Like, part of the consent container needs to be. If I take the risk of trying to. I have the initiative to try to please you. You receive that in a kind or playful way. You do not shame me. That's part of the deal. The deal for the woman is, if I let you lead, you do not hurt me. And the man's deal needs to be, if I lead, you do not hurt me. Right. Because we can't play if we're afraid of being hurt. Yeah, I think so. It's not, am I gonna make a mistake? It's, I'm gonna try. This seems. You know what it is in ours, he thinks about it. He's got this amazing sexual imagination. It's just incredible. And he'll think about stuff he wants to do, and he'll say, like, I think this would be fun. I want to try it. Let's See if you like it or not.

Yeah.

So he has confidence, like, I think it'll be cool. Maybe she'll like it. And that way we kind of discover new stuff. But he's even leading with his imagination. Right. Which by itself is a turn on. Yeah. So if there's no, like, ooh, that was gross. It's like, oh, I really, really like that one. That one. But let's. Let's do that one again. And then he's found something that's a winner and he's happy. Right. And I'm happy. So. So. But on some level, it requires equal vulnerability from both partners because of what you're talking about. The man is afraid of messing up. The man is afraid of being judged. The man is afraid of being inadequate. That's all him being in his head in the same way the woman is in her head about, I don't look good, I can't say what I want. I. He's gonna think the skin on my stomach is too flappy. You know, all that. All that stuff. He's gonna think I'm ugly. He's gonna think I'm not attractive. That's all of our insecurities that we bring to this stuff. If we're playing, that stuff should ideally be at least in the background. Right?

For sure.

Except for my stomach. But, you know.

But then you have a sense of humor about it. Of like, I know we're playing, but. But just so you know, my head just totally went to the flappy, flappity flap on my stomach. I'm back now.

Exactly. Or like, part of that becomes part of the consent container too. Like, I. Part of the consent is like, I. We do this. I wear a bra when we do this during certain positions, because if I'm not wearing a bra, I'm going to be thinking about my boobs flapping to the side too much, and I won't be able to focus on what's happening. So here's how we make it safe for me. Right. So that's an example. Or.

Oh, my gosh, we're gonna do a whole show on boob. The proactive use. Well, the proactive use of lingerie as an anxiety queller.

Totally, totally. I know. Yes. I have thoughts on that show too. Yeah. Yes.

You know you're my co host, Right.

All right. So that was my conversation with Jess, the first of what will probably be many. And I hope that it's just the beginning of our conversation with you. Let me know what came up for you out of this conversation. What are your frustrations with connecting to your body and maybe disconnecting from your head? How do you think your trauma plays out in the realm of desire and communication? What do you most hope for? What do you want to be able to ask your partner for? Please give me a call. You can leave a voicemail at 206-659-9865 and continue our conversation. I may include your voice in a future episode. And I think that by together exploring these sweet, tender, often hot questions, we can create more space for the kind of love and sex we really desire in our lives and in this world. Hope you'll join me. Thanks so much for listening today. You've been listening to Sex, Love Power with Michelle Lizenberry Christensen. It's a brand new podcast and what we really need now are listeners. So if you enjoyed this episode, please do me a huge solid favor and go to wherever you listen, especially if it's on itunes, and leave a review. Show me those stars. And if you can just leave a thoughtful line or two about what this episode meant for you, what it brought up, what future listeners can hope to expect from the show, that'll help so much. I would really appreciate it. Thank you. Be well.