Advisory Firms: An Existential Challenge

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Hello and welcome to The Way Forward. I'm Jack Otter. I have not one but two special guests for this episode. Joe Duran is head of Goldman Sachs Personal Financial Management, and Larry Restieri is the president and CEO of ICHO. Gentlemen, before we start, let's get a few things out of the way. First of all, Larry, for those who may not know, can you explain what ICHO, A-Y-C-H-O, is?

Sure, I'd be happy to. So first off, it's pronounced AY-CHO. But beyond that, a lot of people get that wrong. But ACO is the premier financial planning and counseling firm for corporate employees across the United States. So we work primarily— our core business, which what we're really known for, is providing financial planning and advice to corporate executives. But now we work with, you know, a big chunk of the Fortune 1000 in terms of working with all their employees, not just the C-suite, but every employee up and down the channel.

Okay, I think I may be guilty of recalling a song from the '80s or '90s, Iko Iko, something like that.

That's right, Iko Iko.

And this is a question that one did not have to ask before March. Where are you guys sitting right now as we speak?

I am sitting in my home office in Greenwich, Connecticut, which is somewhat conveniently or inconveniently located in between my two offices in Lower Manhattan, which is about an hour and a half away, or in Albany, which is about 2 and a half hours away. So I like to joke that I have the worst commute of anybody at Goldman Sachs.

And I'm in Laguna Beach with air conditioning going right now.

So, uh, Joe wins. Um, and Larry, somehow that, that drive to Albany, it always seems twice as long as the clock actually says. Route 87 or It's good, but it's rough. Well, I'm in Westchester and I have 3 children in the house, one of whom is 7. So you may hear from her before this is over. So the big news here, of course, 2 years ago, I guess, Joe, at this point, almost 2 years ago, was Goldman buying your firm. And I'm sure a lot of listeners wonder what that is like, what that was like. If we can set aside COVID for the moment, what has gone more smoothly than you might have expected? And are there any bumps in that road that maybe you didn't you've been dealing with?

Well, it's the second time I've gone through a big transaction like this, and it's fundamentally different in a couple of ways. One, this was a strategic direction that Goldman Sachs had a lot of interest finding a way to go into the high net worth market scale. And so there's been a lot of aligned interests and helping us figure out how to do that as well as we can. And so it's been really great. The structure of Goldman Sachs, the partnership nature of the firm, has really made me feel incredibly welcome, very different than the sale I had to General Electric a couple decades ago. So that for me has been the most pleasant surprise, just the alignment of interests. I think I was very surprised also at the way the firm operates in regards to client centricity. I had grown up assuming Goldman Sachs was one thing, but it was an alternate reality. The to what it actually is, which is an incredibly client-centric, almost obsessive about doing the right thing for people. And the people are as smart as I assumed, but they're nowhere near as arrogant as I thought they would be. So, that's been super positive for me. And so, the people have been just fantastic all the way around in every division that I've worked with. Obviously, the part that's been hardest is just we're part of a much bigger enterprise. Uh, and that has impact in two ways. One, we have to be a lot more cautious about what we say and do because anything that Goldman does makes it to the front page and United Capital would be an afterthought at the back page. So that's different. And second, the regulatory environment, we're obviously a global bank, uh, and a brokerage firm. And so that's very different than being a national RIA. And so I'd say that's probably the most difficult adjustment is just ensuring that we or up to the standards and the risk management tools that we need to have in place as part of Goldman Sachs. So that's been probably the thing we've had to adjust the most for.

Pre-merger, you were not known as somebody who was particularly shy about his opinions. So I'm sure that's been a challenge. Larry, can you explain what it's meant for you at ACO? Presumably your business has taken on a whole new dimension.

Yeah, you know, when we, as Joe alluded to, before we even, you know, uh, got into, uh, working with United Capital and acquiring United Capital, that's the segment that Joe and, and United Capital operate in was really something that we were looking to expand. So as I kind of said at the beginning, you know, where ACO had historically focused was really in the C-suite, so generally speaking, in the ultra-high net worth space. And we saw a huge opportunity for us to expand into more the kind of the next level down within a corporate hierarchy. So we felt we just needed some scale and we just needed a way to access all these potential clients, you know, through our existing relationships. And what United Capital really enabled us to do was just expand and better serve our corporate clients by providing, you know, more services just to more people. And it really has been just, just a phenomenal partnership. And I think, you As Joe alluded to, I think one of the reasons we really were intrigued by acquiring United Capital was just, I think we felt that that planning-first mentality that United Capital had really aligned with where AECO has historically been. And the cultural fit was just really great right from the start. So it's just been, it's really been a phenomenal marriage.

So that planning point. Point is interesting because of course Goldman has a lot of different business lines. United Capital was just doing one thing. Have a lot of Goldman partners been attracted to that? And have you signed up a few of them with the entity formerly known as United Capital, now GS Personal Finance?

Well, we've got, you know, the Goldman partners. I'm a client, obviously. The Goldman partners eat our cooking. So most of the partners are already clients of the firm receiving really great planning from Acre. And so, what we've done is we're expanding what we do to the next level of employee, the managing directors, which we're very excited about. So, we're just doing that now. We're quite looking forward to what that will mean. We've had our first set that came through our first class of employee clients, and we've gotten really great reviews from all of them. So, we expect to expand that within the ranks. But the partners already had Larry's team taking care of them.

That makes a lot of sense on many levels. So Joe, I want to read you a quick quote you had in Barron's a while back. You said, we are looking to completely change the industry. We started with that mission. We're going to do it on a much bigger stage now. Of course, even if it wasn't your mission, the industry is changing on its own. And then not long after you said that, We were hit by COVID, but can you talk about how you've evolved your business and what that complete change you want to bring upon the industry is?

Well, I think there's 3 big changes that we see being accelerated actually by COVID that are inescapable. The first one is the idea that you have to provide comprehensive advice beyond investment and planning. And that means banking services. It means estate planning help. It means tax prep help. Bringing together all of the financial solutions because consumers today want their lives simplified and they want one person to quarterback it. They don't want you to solve everything, but they want you to coordinate it. That functionality, Goldman Sachs has the ability to solve and bring the expertise to solve a lot of those needs that we as an independent RIA simply couldn't. We tried to solve the banking issue for years and never found a solution. So, that's one of the pillars that we see. The second one is the digitization of everything except for the final mile of the relationship. And so thinking about how you make advisors bionic, how do you use technology to wrap yourself around the client and be at their side 24/7 so that you can answer any challenge that they have. And then the third, probably the most important for advisors today, is how do you grow organically? At United Capital, we had a very good history acquisitions and integrations. We also had some organic success, but limited. And we see this everywhere. And by the way, once you get to $20, $30 billion, it's really hard to grow organically. And even acquisitions, you have to do a lot of them to keep making an impact. And so the question of how do you grow is at the heart of what every advisor should be thinking about, because what's happening, of course, is acquisition pricing has gone completely out of sight. It is not a feasible strategy for an independent advisor to do a lot of acquisitions at 10, 12, 14 times EBITDA and make the math work. And so you have to find a way to grow organically. And the marriage with ACO and PWM has been really the accelerant that's been really helpful for us. But on the business front, again, the digitization of everything, and then along with a human as a point of contact, making them bionic, and then secondly, being more comprehensive in the services you offer, all of which Goldman has been super helpful in making that a reality.

Yeah, I think you've probably just listed the three biggest trends in the industry, right? Holistic planning, technology, and growth. And those multiples are certainly throwing a wrench into some plans. You know, if you, I did want to ask you if there are any big trends in the business that you see continuing. You've just nailed it, but are there any sort of conventional wisdom ideas about what the trends are that you think might be wrong, that you're seeing things a little differently?

Well, I think the idea that advisors can keep doing what they've done and be successful and grow at scale is not reasonable. I think what you're finding is we're going to find what has really changed is the growth and proliferation of national RIAs. And that's going to change the landscape even more than a firm like Goldman Sachs will, because the independent RIAs are able to compete with a local office offering a lot more than an independent firm. And yet many independent firms have not adjusted for the fact that the big firms are doing things better and more efficiently and, and in a way that's planning-led in a way that was not true a decade ago. So I feel like very often the advisors that I speak to who are independent don't realize how much the industry has evolved beyond where they were, and therefore are left on their back heels thinking that they have a competitive advantage when they in fact don't. Our pricing is probably lower. The services we offer are probably better. We can negotiate with outside managers at better rates. We can offer services an independent RIA cannot. And so you're going to see continued consolidation in the industry. Most especially because very few firms are growing organically because they're specializing in baby boomers who are spending all their money. There's very little focus on Gen Xers, which for us is a very exciting part of the market.

Yeah, it sounds that way, uh, post-merger. So one thing you didn't mention there in terms of all the things that you can offer because of scale that are tougher for an RIA is technology. But of course, that's on the list. Uh, Do you have any advice for somebody who doesn't have a Goldman Sachs behind them in terms of how to get to the level of fintech that those younger clients especially are going to demand? I mean, that's table stakes for them, right? That to have everything on their phone and to have it work right the first time.

Well, you know, interestingly, I always look outside of our industry to see what is it like to be a consumer when you rent a movie or do anything else, you know, shop, get a mortgage. And our industry is woefully behind, but the independent firms are even further behind. And so, what I would suggest you do is secret shop anywhere. What you'll find is that 3 things are always true. One, you can change and adapt your decision-making on your mobile phone. Second, video-embedded results and communication is a part of almost every interaction that you need to have. In order to be virtual. And third, you need to be able to respond 24/7. That's very hard for individual advisors to do. Now, here's the number one thing. Don't try to solve it internally. There are lots of external solutions. And the good news is a lot of the fintech firms are going that way too. So, you know, as you know, we offer a white label version of our platform called FinLife, but firms like eMoney at Fidelity, MoneyGuide, they're all making their tools broader. Now, of course, the goal is to have you all commit to our systems and our technologies. And, uh, and that's obviously how— what you'll find, as long as you're with a large enough fintech stack, if your vendor is big enough, they're going to be investing in solving these problems because they have to in order to be viable. So a lot of this will get solved on behalf of the advisors by the custodians, by their vendors, simply because we all have to in order to be competitive.

Sure, yeah, certainly the custodian role is going to be crucial there, especially for the smaller players. Let's pivot briefly to COVID. Everyone knows how much they and their business and their peers have been affected regardless of their industry. What is the best advice you guys can offer to your peers in terms of lessons you've learned about remotely leading teams, remotely serving clients? As leaders, how have your priorities shifted?

Maybe I'll tackle that first. You know, what was interesting for us as a business, you gotta remember with ACO, we actually provide taxes advice as well. So we were, and, you know, historically have been a very almost paper manually intensive business. Even, you know, even no matter how much we try to bring in technology, we still were just, you know, either, you know, file cabinets everywhere and just, you know, kind of an old line business in a lot of ways. And if you had told me, you know, a year ago right now that we would be able to, you know, fully operate in a remote environment, you know, and, and not just, you know, operate, but actually thrive in that environment, I would've said there was no way that could happen. And it did. And people adapted really quickly. We were, you know, we tried to be very much in front of it. So one thing I think is, As someone who leads a large organization, I think as an employer, it was really important to stay in front of our employees. Just make sure they knew we were thinking of them first, that we were worried about their safety, and we continue to do that. And that was really important. And I think people felt a lot of value in that. I think there was a real importance in content. So not just our employees, but our clients wanted to hear from Goldman Sachs. So we were very out front. With webinars, with conference calls, bringing in experts. So just bringing in expertise because people wanted to hear. Everybody just, you know, didn't know, you know, nobody knew what was going on. Everybody wanted information. So providing that information was really powerful. And I said to our advisors at the beginning of the crisis, I was like, you know, now is the time for you to really cement, you know, be as close to your clients as possible. Now is when they're going to need you. And And we really leaned into that. And I think it's paid dividends over the course of this whole crisis.

And Larry, I'd just add, I think for us, we practice the thing we call the 3 Cs. So whenever you have a crisis, you need clarity about what's happening. Our firm did a really good job explaining what was going on, not just to our clients, but also to our employees. Second, you need to communicate. You almost cannot overcommunicate. So, we had, amongst the partners, multiple calls a week. Amongst our teams, multiple calls a week. And then, with our clients, multiple communication streams every week. And so, communication. Then, the third is care. And I'd say the one thing we've all at Goldman done is really reach out and connect with people on a personal level. And that is true beyond, again, just employee relations, but clients as well, to connect on a human level. This was a great opportunity because people's barriers came down and all of a sudden, we're just humans in this completely unexpected world. And it's an amazing opportunity to build a connection with people in a completely different way. And so, I think those 3 Cs were very helpful for all of us across the firm to to really connect us all in a way that I think is much richer than what we had going into the crisis.

So peering forward, what of those things do you think will continue even after, if we can actually get this vaccine rolled out, even after we all get the shots and when we're feeling a little more comfortable? From the way you're talking, it sounds like you want to hold on to a lot of those things you've learned over the last, whatever it's been, 9 months.

Larry and I have discussed this all the time. I mean, the humanization that's happened, the value of a human connection, I think that is something we have really dug into. Larry, I don't know if you want to add something to that, but the thing I've noticed the most is just how the barriers have really disappeared and people are much more connected on a human level.

Yeah, and I would just add on that, that I think one of the big shifts, obviously, for all of us has been the introduction of Zoom or any kind of video conferencing, which I will tell you that a year ago, Goldman Sachs was not big on video conferencing. And now, obviously, we spend our entire day on Zoom. But what I think we found is that for a lot of our interactions with our clients, Zoom actually, that conversation over a video conference, Works great. It can be a very intimate conversation over, you know, spanning miles. So I think for our advisors who used to spend a lot of time on the road, now I don't think they're going to spend that same time on the road. I think they can now be a little more productive, you know, staying at the home office or wherever they may be doing, you know, some of the meetings as Zoom calls. That's not to say it'll be all the meetings. That's not to say they're not going to be out on the road meeting clients. But that said, I think that shift is going to be— that's just a permanent shift now to how we and all of us operate our business.

I would add, Jack, one thing I think that is important here when you think about what's happening, we're in the business of trust ultimately. The clients are with us or not with us because they trust us. Maintaining trust over Zoom is relatively easy, so I think you can maintain a connection and actually make it just as rich, if not richer, with video and Zooming. However, the building of trust, taking a stranger, making them into a friend, requires a different set of tools because you don't get to sit there with a yellow pad having an hour-long lunch and then going and having a discussion. And so, the digitization, our behavioral economics tools that we have to make the process virtual has been incredibly helpful. So, you know, I think I was a little bit taken aback at how, just how successful we've been growing our new client onboarding and shortening the timeframe it takes to bring them on using our tools in a digital way. But for many advisors, they don't know how to virtualize the yellow pad. So you're thinking about how do I shorten the trust cycle when I'm not face-to-face with a client? Requires a different set of tools. We've got obviously Money Mind and Honest Conversations, all these systems that we use to help us understand the clients, because obviously if they're not understood, they won't follow your advice. But it's also to shorten the trust cycle. And that part, I think very few advisors, they don't see a lot of new clients. Uh, we have seen thousands of new clients. And as a consequence, we've really had to think about that particular nuance because it is different maintaining a relation versus building one.

And so, can you explain some of the steps that you're doing there? Is it more FaceTime since it can be done with a click instead of a drive?

No, it's actually having the clients participate in an interactive way. So, we have— I'll give you a simple— it's not a promotion for what we do but an example of it. When we first get a connection with a client, whether it's a referral, or given to us from one of our existing clients or an ACO referral, they'll first get in contact with an ambassador who will find out about the person and send them a link to some things that they can do to let us learn more about them. That might be something like the Money Mind that tells us whether they use money to protect themselves or to enjoy life or to look after the people they care about. That they do by themselves or with their spouses, and that information informs us about how they think about money. It also helps us to define what is important about money for them. By the time we have our first phone call, we already have enough information to actually help solve problems. And so, what we found is instead of the old meeting where they'd come in with a shoebox of stuff and have to spend the first half of the meeting just finding out about their lives, segmenting that and say, we want your time with the advisor to be productive, so please give us this information in advance. Is a way to get to what matters because a lot of the soft stuff has to be done before the actual virtual meeting. And that has actually increased our productivity and made the experience for the clients a lot better.

Yeah, and Jack, I'll add on to that. That actually is one of the things, the positives of bringing United Capital on board and Joe and his team, even from an AECO perspective, we had never used the ambassador program or anything really exactly like that. And as we saw it in practice, we're like, well, that actually really works. That's a good way to onboard clients. And we're now adopting kind of what was a United Capital method of doing business at broader at ECO. Cause it's just, it's a better way to kind of, as Joe alluded to, kind of shorten the time to create that trust and have a better first meeting with the advisor.

I want to follow up on one word that Joe mentioned there, and that was spouses. One of the raps on sort of the old way of doing business for financial advisors has been that it was very male-centric, right? Either, you know, you met only with the husband or the couple came in and the advisor only passed the papers, you know, to one person, that would be the husband. Do you find now that it's not, again, because it's not face-to-face, because it is just a screen, are advisors doing a better job of addressing both spouses, and I know that's very important for client retention to develop a relationship with both of them.

I'm not sure that advisors are doing better. I can't speak to other firms. I can tell you that we've always been obsessed with bringing the non-financial spouse into the discussion. Often, that's a female. Very often, it's male. It doesn't really matter. What we know is that in the industry, we typically ignore the woman. Even if she's the breadmaker, much to our loss as an industry. We've always believed that both spouses, presuming that they're married, need to have a voice and that each of you are going to have a different perspective of why you work and what the money's intention is. Our industry, I think, spends too much time on goals and financial outcomes and not enough time on purpose and the intent behind money. And so, we know when it gets to why do you work, Everyone's going to have an opinion about that. And the intention and purpose of your money, that's probably not going to change a lot. And those are things like values, like I want to spend time with the people I care about. I want to make sure I'm never a burden to my family. Those aren't goals. Those are much more important. They're your intentions, your priorities. And that's where we spend our time. And when you talk about that, the non-financial spouse will absolutely be drawn in because those are things everybody cares about, even the kids. And so, when you get to the specifics of how you're going to invest the money, a lot of people are going to lose interest. When you talk about what is the money for, everybody's going to have an opinion. And so, how you approach the discussion really matters.

That's a great point, and it is so much a part of the industry right now. Uh, two follow-ups on that. One, In practical terms, when you're talking about the actual investment choices, are you seeing more focus on values? Is it ESG or something else? And then within the pandemic, have you seen people reassessing their values and have they changed about what they think is most important as a result of this experience?

I think we definitely see the continued trend towards ESG or interest in ESG. And people are definitely putting a greater emphasis on just, we'll call it social responsibility and how their money is being invested. That's an overarching comment. That's not everybody, but we're definitely seeing it coming up more and more. I think in terms of the pandemic, and I think anytime you see a crisis, right? You know, investor behavior is, is, is so fickle. You know, people who kind of went to cash in March and never got reinvested, or, you know, however you want to play it out.

I'm sure not a single one of your clients did that.

Of course, of course that's the case. Uh, no, I mean, I think, you know, it's definitely, you know, helping clients manage through it though. That is the role. That's the critical role of the advisor, you know, helping people not go, you know, fully to cash or, you know, dipping their toe back in. And that's the real value that, you know, a human advisor can add in terms of having those dialogues with clients. And I think what we've just seen is just, I think, a strengthening of the relationship when it's a good relationship between the client and advisor through the whole pandemic.

I would just add, I think about this like the great reset. This was a time where we've all had more time by ourselves and with our families than we've probably ever had. Without the distractions. It led everyone to rethink, are the things I'm doing that I was doing leading into this pandemic, do I want them all back? That's a really great conversation to have with your clients. It's an incredibly opportune time to say, what that you have had to give up will you bring back? And you will find almost every client has had that conversation and thought about, I don't need to be in the car that often. I don't need to be doing doing X, Y, and Z. I miss A, B, and C. And asking that question, what would you do more of and what will you do less of, is the kind of conversation that puts you into the higher order, more important stuff that makes you more indispensable to these clients.

Other than the commute and that time in the physical office, any trends you've spotted in terms of what those changes are that people are identifying?

The ones I think I have seen of heightened importance is this was already a trend, but as has happened with this pandemic, it has accelerated trends. The focus on experiences and time with the people you care about is clearly the thing that everyone appreciates the most. That a lot of the trying to help my kids do more and all the tutoring and everything else, That kind of thing where you're spending a lot of time to keep up with the Joneses is not as important as, "Hey, I really want to spend time with my kids. I realize what I've given up by being at work so much and not having dinners with them." Now, a lot of them want to escape for a little while, but there's still this reprioritization of, "This is what it's all really about for me." That's what we've heard the most of is this idea that I want to actually get that vacation home, or I want to make sure that we take the time to go on vacations together. So, I think that's what I've seen the most frequent is this rethinking about how I allocate my time.

You know, I wasn't planning on asking you guys about investments specifically, and feel free to dodge this one if you're not comfortable with it. But as you were talking, I was thinking that of course, this has investment implications because we're hearing this from everyone, right? I may not wanna fly to conferences and meet client meetings and everything else weekly, but I sure as heck would like to get away somewhere with my family. And that's gonna have a big effect on the travel industry. But speaking much, much more broadly about investing, because those clients did not go to cash, what changes are you making in portfolios, not based on COVID, but just based on the investment outlook? I mean, whether it's bond yields practically zero, climbing slightly, whether it's expensive valuations on equities. Can you give a sense of what your house view is in terms of investments?

Well, I think ISG, our investment group, really views the growth of the US economy to be accelerating, especially in the second half of the year. Our portfolios in general do not move around a lot. We try to control the things we can control, and that's taxes. Making sure you're tax efficient, drive down costs as low as you can. And we don't do a lot of cute things. We certainly don't do anything exotic. What I think you'll find is US corporations are very facile and adapt in taking advantage of changes that occur. The S&P index automatically adjusts for companies that are taking it, doing well, an Amazon or an Apple versus those that aren't doing so well. So I don't think you need to be that cute. We don't tend to, at least at PFM, do a lot to adjust the overall course because most people will not fail because they underperform the market. They will fail because they make bad personal financial choices. They retire too young. They give away too much money. And so, at ACO and at PFM, Larry and I talk about this all the time. Our job is to help our advisors, help our clients to make the best possible choices at any given time. And it's almost never anything to do with investing.

Yeah, one advisor once told me that her highest and best role by far was that of the shrink. She helped keep people from getting too excited in the good times and too downtrodden in the bad times.

Well, as we alluded to, keeping people invested through the first part of the year paid dividends down the road. So it's just being smart and being keeping the course is so important.

We can talk about scale and fintech all day, but that is the core job that you guys are doing, and it's a very important job. I have lots more questions, but the clock is telling me that we should move to what is always the final element of a Barron's interview, and that is to ask each of you for an actionable idea or two that our listener can put right into practice. So who wants to start?

I mean, I guess I'll start, you know, and I'll tell you how, you know, we really, you know, position ourselves at ACOR and with our clients. And really, that's about we want to help our clients simplify their lives, right? Clients, especially now post-COVID, as Joe was just alluding to, they don't want to spend a lot of time worrying about their investments or worrying about their finances. They want you, the advisor, to do that. So Help your clients simplify their lives, and then that will pay dividends down the road.

Mine would be to answer one question. What problem are you solving? Larry pointed out what ours is, which is to remove worry and anxiety from our clients' lives. But most advisors don't actually step back and say, what is the fundamental problem I'm looking to solve? And if you're clear about what that is, you're going to attract people who want that problem taken care of. It also makes it clear for the people that work for you what it is that you are on this planet to do. So, if I give one suggestion to any advisor, it would be that. What problem are you solving for your clients?

I think that's fantastic advice because it also applies to so many other businesses. If people in journalism or car making asked, "What problem are we trying to solve?" and put that front and center, I think we'd see a lot of success. Guys, thank you so much. This was really interesting. I know you've had a heck of an almost 2-year run and have many more big years of growth in front of you. So thanks so much. And we hope to see you— I know we're doing a lot of Zooming— but in person one of these days at a Barron event.

Thank you, Jack. It's great to be here.

Yeah, thank you very much.

Thank you to everyone who is listening. Tune in next week for our new podcast series, Actionable Insights, hosted by Steve Sandusky., and we'll be back with another episode of The Way Forward on January 25th.

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