Beverly Flaxington: The Art of Influence and Getting Results

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Hello and welcome to Barron's The Way Forward. I'm Greg Bartolis, and my guest today is Beverly Flaxington, a practice management consultant and co-founder of The Collaborative, a professional development consulting firm in Massachusetts. Beverly was a guest on this podcast 2 years ago when she discussed strategies for turning difficult clients into favorites and the importance of EQ for advisors. But today she's going to discuss the art of influence Change Management Best Practices and Ways to Motivate People to Engage and Succeed. Welcome to the program, Beverly.

Pleasure to be back. Thank you, Greg.

Well, I got to say, I really, really like this topic because it's something that everyone can relate to and not just in a professional realm, but on a personal realm as well. So there's a lot of— there's a universal use case here, and I'm really eager to hear what you have to say. Jump right in.

Great.

Tell me, in terms of the first topic, or what's most important, I mean, in terms of getting people to, I guess, listen to you, to be influential, what do advisors need to know?

It's such a curious question because when you think about influence, oftentimes we think about we need to get somebody to do something that we want them to do, right? I'm going to influence you to a certain sort of behavior. But I like to think about it, especially when we're talking about advisors and their teams and larger organizations, more about about helping people understand the benefits to them of embracing something that you're asking them to do. So rather than just do it because I said it or do it because I see the value in it, how do we actually motivate and engage people to want to do it because they see that it's actually something that benefits them?

I mean, I think that that's a logical approach because all of us, I mean, it could be when you buy a book or read an article, inner monologue that you are asking is, what's in it for me? There's that id, that selfish factor, right, if you will. So if you appeal to people's self-interest, you'll get a lot more buy-in.

You know, it's funny, I teach graduate classes, as you know, undergrad from time to time, although I try to stay away. But one of the things that I've learned in just studying how people learn and, you know, certainly adult learning principles, because graduate students are mostly professionals, is that when we get past the college age, we don't actually like to take in new information unless we can absolutely see a connection for us. How does this benefit me? So it's interesting, right? 'Cause we think about what's in it for me as being like, well, I'm so focused on myself, right? It's all about me. But the reality is that the brain science shows us that we just don't have capacity to take in something unless we can make a connection. So it's a really important piece to think about Because it moves us from, you know, you're so obsessed with what matters to you, more to how do I make this matter to you so that you'll embrace it.

So if someone is asking, wants that buy-in, and let's say the unenlightened person will just issue it more as a command, right? Let's say this is one end of the spectrum, like, do this, period. All right, that's obviously not good. Is it like a sliding scale where there's an optimal point where you kind of like, you know, 30% of it like, this is really important to me, and then 70% is appealing to your self-interest? Or how do you situate the request in that spectrum, if you will?

So that's a really insightful question because I think, you know, so I'm coming in and I'm doing my job, and you could argue, well, how can the lead advisor, the boss, the person in charge spend all their time— I'm one person, I have colleagues— like worrying about what matters to all of us. But if you think about it, if we don't have some sort of understanding about what the goals are, what the objectives are, we call it what success looks like, you're not going to get my engagement. I mean, I'm going to come in and get my paycheck, but I'm not necessarily going to be in it. So I think that's the important piece too, is that it's not so much we've got to customize you know, everything we're asking someone to do and, you know, really make sure that it fits each person. That's not possible, especially in a large organization. But you can make it clear to people what they're striving for, what success looks like, and align to values.

Right. So I think being able to clarify a vision and having everyone on the same team, like it's well understood, we need to do A, B, and C, then that's a given. You're not even trying to explain why something is important. They get it.

Exactly. And they also see their role in achieving that vision, right? Like, if I can see why I matter, I'm going to be more engaged.

Yeah. Yeah. Now tell me, why do sometimes people resist things that actually are in their best interest? Tell me about that dynamic.

This is such an important one. I think we, we go in all the time to do, you know, workshops or something where Organization is trying to implement something new. Team is trying to implement something new. And on the face of it, it's a good idea, right? It's like we're getting better at something, or we've got a new solution for clients, or we have a new way of technology that makes it easier for us to do whatever it is. So you look on the face of it and you say, well, this is a better thing, right? So everyone's going to embrace it. But we overlook the fact that We don't like change. People fundamentally don't like change.

Who Moved My Cheese?

Who Moved My Cheese? I mean, I am very happy in this little part of the maze. Don't make me go somewhere where— and there's a lot of reasons for that, right? Fear of the unknown. You know, a lot of people, I'm in my comfort zone. You know, that's where I feel safe, right? But I think that we— so, Because of that, we have to help people see the path forward to be able to get to that better place. What oftentimes happens is we just say, here's this new solution, it's going to be great, here's how it's all going to work. You're going to get all of this, sometimes overt, sometimes covert resistance. But you have to be able, as the leader, as the person in charge, to show someone not only What is the outcome going to be when we get there? But what does that path look like? What are you going to have to do? What is someone else going to have to do? We don't spend enough time with that. We just expect, oh, they're going to embrace it. They're going to figure it out. It doesn't work that way.

Offering a roadmap of sorts, if you will, a path.

Well, think about, you know, most people in organizations, Greg, are really, really good. And this is stylistically. At implementation, you know, getting done what needs to get done. But if you move my cheese and now all of a sudden you're asking me to get done something that I can't even in my mind see what it looks like, it's not a fair request. So you've got to help me with how do I get from here to there.

Do you have any real-life examples that you could share?

Many.

This is—

I feel that this is pretty much the conversation I have almost on a weekly basis. But so a couple of situations where— and this is actually not an uncommon trend in our industry— you have people who came into, especially some of our larger organizations we work with, came into a role where I am more of a I am a service person, an implementer. I am somebody who knows exactly what my day-to-day is going to look like. Then the organization shifts and says, we have to grow. Now you have to actually go out and find new opportunities. You've got to turn these conversations into— Deer in the headlights for people because what do you mean? That's not what I was hired for. It's not what I know how to do. Probably not what I like to do. And now you're putting me in a very uncomfortable situation. But what we've seen is if you can kind of understand all of that and then be able to say to somebody, here's a way to reframe, right? You're not a salesperson, just to take a simple example. You're somebody who cares deeply about the people you work with, clients you work with, and you want to be able to find ways to make sure that they are having all their needs met, you're serving them to the highest level possible, you can't do that unless you start to have some different conversations. So let's talk about what different conversations look like. And that just kind of changes it. You know, it sounds so simple and so subtle, but it changes the whole dynamic because now you're not asking me to be a different sort of person. You're asking me to think about what I'm already doing a little bit differently and maybe giving me some new skills and tools to do it.

At the core, then it's an extension of caring for the client and you're just trying to be more expansive in it as opposed to, oh, I need to ring up the register, make another sale, which is coming from a whole different place.

Yes, because you think about the idea of sales, it's this adversarial, like you're trying to talk me into something. Right.

Zero-sum game. I win. Yeah.

Yes, it's very much a win-lose, right? But if you care about me and you care, like, what is actually going to help me or enhance my life or help me reach my goals, whatever it is, that, see, that seems more noble, right? So you have people who are in these roles and they're doing it for noble reasons, or they love the markets, financially they can, you know, add some value. But we have to kind of help them shift the way that they think about what they do and how they do it, but then you have to give them the tools and the skills to support it. You can't just say, hey, make this change. How?

Yeah, is there an emotional component to this in addition to— you could provide important information, but just as with politics, we don't— or even you get into arguments, you can present all the logic in the world and have the facts on your side and you still won't get buy-in, right? There are other dimensions to this. How does that all manifest?

Oh, and this is what is so challenging, right? So we are in this highly logical industry. It's quite black and white. I mean, the numbers add up or they don't, and if the number's off, you know, you have to go back and figure out why that happened. And yet, when we're trying to excite people, enthuse them, motivate them, get them engaged to want to make change happen, be a part of something, we can't lay out a logical argument for that because, again, And again, if my resistance is coming from fear, I don't know about the unknown, I'm kind of comfortable where I am, I don't want my boat rocked, what could be the downstream effect if I can't embrace this? So what we have to be able to do is just acknowledge like that, that's all normal and that's okay. So here's the path forward that we're gonna show you. Here's the goals, here's the success outcomes, here's where you fit in. Here's what those markers of success can look like. And it's not so much, you know, sometimes our clients, our advisors, why do I have to coddle somebody? Why do I have to coddle them? And it really, my retort to that is you're not coddling somebody. You're basically trying to get the best out of them. And so that's a path that's going to get you a better result. If you don't want to take that path, that's fine. But you're going to continually be frustrated because they're not going to respond to you as well.

Yeah, and I'd imagine that strictly on an interpersonal level, merely the act of saying, "I understand why you might be reluctant. I understand why this might seem a little bit ambiguous or abstract. I get that." That in and of itself, I imagine, has got to instill some peace of mind and make the person feel better. And then moreover, you're going to provide a map, if you will, or things they need to do. As opposed to just having it as a top-down edict?

It's funny, so we have a change model that we came up with. We call it SHIFT. So it's an acronym, 5 letters. S for specify the desired outcome. H, highlight the obstacles and categorize. And so to your point on it, Greg, so you set the desired outcome. What are we trying to get to? What does success look like? How are we going to measure when we get there? But then we always say you have to then let people tell you what they see as the obstacles. And the problem that we often have is like, it's all going to be good, right, when we get there. But the people who are actually charged with getting there can see what all the roadblocks are going to be along the way. If you don't allow them to surface those and talk about it, that's what's going to hold them back because they see it, they know it. But you're like, no, no, don't bring me any bad news. But the important thing is then to categorize. So what can you control? What can you influence? What's out of your control? And if something's out of our control, let's take it off the list. But if you can control and influence, how can you do that? That simple step to exactly the point that you made is so powerful. Like, I've just watched it so many times, or we might have a room full of people and they'll come up afterwards and they'll say, I just appreciate that our management let us share what we see is in the way. Doesn't fix it all overnight, but they let us share it.

Right. So from morale alone, it's a positive thing. And the other thing is, I mean, just strictly from a business perspective, it would seem the people at the front lines or in the trenches, whatever comparison you want to use, they really have their ears on the ground. They know with some specificity what the challenges are. The person in the corner office looking out the window scanning their computer screen, they might on a high level have an idea, but they're not maybe in the trenches as much. So I think there's also out of self-interest for them, you know, have a little latitude and listen.

So I often cite, and I wish I could remember, I mean this probably goes back, could even be the '80s, but I used to read about Hyatt Hotels and their senior management once a year, or at least once a year, could have been even more, would go and work in the hotels. They would bring the bags up to the room. They would work at the front desk. They would set the reservations. And the reason they did that was so that they could see what are our people dealing with all the time. And it just, decades ago, probably, but I just remember that it struck with me so much because that's often the disconnect And it's not that the executive office doesn't care, they might say, well, we're so busy. But when you don't allow people to tell you what really needs to be fixed, but then you're painting a picture of this is all how great it's going to be, the disconnect is there and you're just simply not going to get adoption and people to embrace it the same way you need them to.

Yeah, and if you don't reach out, a lot of those people in the trenches out of deference to power or not wanting to— so many people will suck up to their bosses and just stay quiet, put their heads down. So if you're telling them it's okay, let us know, we can mutually benefit here.

That happens so much. We might run a session like that and the leader then will say, well, why didn't I hear about any of this before? And it's like, well, I mean, there really is something to giving people permission, Creating almost like a forum and saying, and Greg, oh, you know, words are so powerful. And I try to point out too, you don't wanna ask people about the issues. You don't wanna ask 'em about their challenges. You wanna ask them about their problems because then I feel like I'm a complainer and I'm not gonna bring it up. But when you ask people about their obstacles, they will always respond because we all have obstacles. And I don't mind embracing my obstacles and telling you I'll tell you what they are, but I don't want to be the negative person that tells you about my problems and my challenges.

You've spoken about a difference, and this might— this seems kind of subtle, but maybe it's not so subtle as it seems, between influence and motivation. Tell me about that.

Yes. So there's a concept that says that in reality, you cannot motivate another person. We are all self-motivated. Self-motivated. So you can rah-rah me, you can, you know, threaten me, you can do anything to get me to engage in certain behavior, but it doesn't mean that I'm motivated. What you can do is create an environment where somebody becomes self-motivated, and that's where the art of influence comes in. So if I can kind of show you why— I like to always say the medicine is good for you and there's actually going to be a benefit, even if in the beginning you're going to have to go through obstacles, or I can engage with you in a way that's playing to your strengths, or I can show you that roadmap. There's a lot of influencing steps that I can take, but it's so important to know that ultimately the responsibility for motivation is going to lie on that individual.

I see that time and time again, not just in the workplace. It could be, you know, whatever it is. Like someone might say, oh, I want to quit drinking or this and that. Other people can tell them this or that, but the profound changes in people's lives almost invariably come from within. That's really the source of it ultimately.

Exactly. Even though, right, we take advice from people, we offer advice to people all the time, But it really is almost a setup. Yeah. Because ultimately I have to make a choice. You can influence me though, right, to make that choice.

So sticking with that, what are some strategies that someone can employ to become a better influencer?

A couple of my favorites. One of them is the reframe. So it's the idea that when we look out at any thing in life, we would say, well, it's objective, right? I have data about it. It's objective. So let's say as an example, it's new technology we're implementing. This is going to be difficult. We're all going to be working additional hours. It may not work. That's one perspective. A reframe could be, we're going to have a really organized way to implement this. We're going to have some bumps on the road, but we're all going to get in it together. And ultimately, it's going to enhance our lives. Which of those is true? They're both true. So helping people with the reframe. Now, I'm a big proponent of not being too Pollyanna. You can't paint like, oh, this is all gonna be wonderful and roses are coming up everywhere, 'cause people will reject that. But you can normalize it and at least make a more objective statement about something.

Yeah, you'll be simply much more credible that way too. I mean, that's often reality, so.

Exactly. You know, both are realities. So it's your choice. I just had a situation on a personal level with— I have a foster daughter that lives with me and she was telling me, you know, all these things that were going to happen. And I kept saying, but we don't know yet. So let's reframe and say here, well, the positive outcome happened. And I use it as the example to just say, look at the energy that gets wasted really choosing the frame that's going to be the negative frame. So it happens all the time, but it really does drain us.

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, we are running out of time. Do you have any parting advice, an actionable idea?

Yeah. So one actionable idea would be the second thing I was going to say, which was storytelling. Gather stories of success. Tell your team stories of success. Just like the example that I just used, situations that you can find in your own life with your team and just continue to tell stories so people can see somebody else got through this, I can get through this too. Stories are very powerful.

And memorable. I mean, they give you that bird-in-the-hand conceptual reference point. So, well, thank you so much for joining. It was a pleasure.

Always a pleasure to be here.

Thank you so much. I hope we can do it again eventually. My guest has been Beverly Flaxington. For more advisor-specific podcasts, please check out barons.com/podcast. For The Way Forward, I'm Greg Bartalus.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.