Clinical Psychologist Shares the Science Behind Behavior Change

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What can we learn about behavior change from a clinical psychologist? Hello and welcome back to Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward Podcast. I'm business coach Steve Sandusky. My guest today is Dr. Joy Leary, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Dr. Leary and I dive into the process of behavior change. We explore the stages of behavior change, what can get in the way of changing our behavior, and how do we help our clients stick with a new behavior. This is a very rich episode in terms of understanding how the mind works, how our beliefs are formed, and the tools and techniques we can use to help change our own behavior, as well as helping facilitate positive change for our clients. So let's get started with Dr. Joy Leary. As human beings, are we wired to maintain the status quo, or are we people that just like seek novelty and want to change all the time?

We are definitely hardwired to maintain the status quo. We all kind of revert to what is known and familiar. Unfortunately, even when what is known and familiar isn't the best thing for us. Change is hard. You know, as a psychologist, I can tell you I have the opportunity to work with bright, intellectually curious, intelligent people, and they're coming to me not because they don't know the right things to do. They're coming because for a long time something has really gotten in the way of them being able to follow through on those things that they know on some level, intellectually, logically, would be in their best interest.

Yeah, so basically this idea of the knowing-doing gap. I know what I should do, but for whatever reason, I'm just not doing it. So that essentially is the gist of what we want to be talking about today is helping people go through this change process, helping them identify what is it they need to change, why aren't they changing, what's getting in the way, So I think there's a lot of good stuff because this is all right in line with what financial advisors come across all the time. So I think a good place to start really is understanding the framework that I think has become fairly widely accepted, both maybe in the clinical area, but just in psychology period, of this 6-stage change model that I think goes back to maybe the mid-1990s with Norcross Pruchaska and DiClemente. So could you just briefly describe what that is? And we'll dig into that here for just a bit.

Absolutely. So as humans, when we make changes that are sustainable, it doesn't happen in one fell swoop. I think if listeners can reflect on one of the last changes that they— meaningful changes that they made in their lives, it probably didn't overnight. So we have to be ready to change before we go through the work of doing it and really making it stick. So there is, this framework of the stages of change that was developed that I think can be really useful for reflecting and looking at, okay, where am I in this stage? If you're working with someone around changing their behavior, I think it's very useful to be able to recognize and identify where they are at so you can meet them in that place. Because at the end of the day, We cannot want something more for someone than they want for themselves. So if we can accurately dial into, okay, this is where they are in terms of readiness, then we can meet them at that spot and do what we can to enhance motivation to maybe help move them along and bridge that gap between where they are and a better version of themselves, if that is ultimately what on some level they are saying they want to do. So when we look at these stages, first we start at pre-contemplation. So this is the place where the person doesn't even identify that there's something wrong. There may be a lot of times some denial associated with this stage. Things are fine. Nothing needs to be disrupted. Now this can be a particularly challenging place for other people in an individual's life who is struggling or engaging in unhealthy behavior in some way, because often they can see the pain, they can see the consequences of a choice, but this person, if they are stuck in this place of what I'm doing now is serving me well, It's really, really hard. And sometimes someone in precontemplation, because of external pressure, they may, for instance, go to treatment of some sort just to temporarily get someone off of their back. But again, if they don't want it and they don't see a need for it, the change isn't likely going to last. Now, when someone starts to develop some dissonance between what they are currently doing and what they want for themselves, then they start to move into this place of contemplation. And this is where in their mind they start to look at, okay, maybe it would be worth me thinking about doing things a little bit different. There may be a better way to go about things than I'm currently choosing to do. So at this juncture, Sometimes people feel stuck because if this is all happening in their head, they acknowledge the problem is there and then they finally start to think seriously about solving it, but there's no action. So we start to see some incremental action in this next stage, which is preparation. So this is when someone is beginning to take action pretty soon. So in a matter of weeks, months, and they are start to make plans and little adjustments so that they are set to make some changes. And then finally, after the preparation is laid, and some of that may be environmental, some of that may be more emotional and cognitive, someone then moves into the action phase. So this is where we see a real modification of behavior. In the action phase, this is going to be characterized by verbs like we're starting something, we're stopping doing it, we're removing or eliminating something. And this is the stage that requires the greatest commitment of time and energy, especially in the beginning. Again, because we like homeostasis and that status quo is going to pull us back. So Whenever we are needing to create a new groove in our brain of the way we do things, that is going to require extra work. Then after we've been in that action phase for a while, we move into maintenance. So this is where individuals are really going to be consolidating the gains that they made in that action phase. And then finally, for some people, you have termination. So, and this is the stage often that's the ultimate goal where that change has really been consolidated and old tendencies no longer have that same powerful pull. Now I think something that's really important to understand about this stage process is that most changes in our lives are not this straight sharp up into the right line. Instead, change is more of a spiral. So it's very common for people to cycle through this cycle and go in and out of various stages more than one time before they really get to a place of meaningful, sustained change.

Now, as an advisor, we just want to find people that are in that action phase. It's like, we want people that are ready to go right now. Doesn't always work that way. But let's talk about what are some things that you can do to help an advisor figure out what stage they're in, in terms of, of this model, and how close they are to actually taking some action. Is there anything that we can do to figure out where they're at?

Well, I think one set of techniques that can sometimes live alongside very nicely this stage process is motivational interviewing. So when you are talking to someone about changing behavior, really assessing, asking them kind of on a scale of 1 to 10, like, how ready do you feel to do this? And then asking, okay, well, why is that not higher? What is keeping it from being lower? And then the other thing we need to be assessing is also confidence. How confident are you that you can make this change? I think in terms of gauging where someone is at, having an understanding of what each stage looks like, and then looking at the collection of behaviors around and some of the things someone is saying can help you determine maybe where they are. So again, you can meet them in that place, and then you want to be looking at motivation and then asking some smart questions that really help someone to be more forward-looking.

Yeah, and I love asking on a scale of 1 to 10 questions because I— and I can't tell you how many times I've been in conversations with an advisor, we're talking about something, and my interpretation of what they're verbalizing is they feel really strongly about this. And then just as a double check, sometimes I'll say, well, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being this and 1 being that, how would you rate yourself? And they'll say 5 or 6. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, what you said earlier, verbalized, and now that you put it numerically, those are two very different things. So I think that's always a good check on a scale of 1 to 10. Now, you also mentioned this idea of motivation, which certainly is critical. And a professor that I was talking to a while ago, as we were talking about this knowing-doing gap, was saying the same thing. And what he was describing is that as we're trying to figure out people kind of closing the knowing-doing gap, he says, well, let's ask the why question. So let's go up that values hierarchy and keep asking the why question to really get to the root of what is motivating them. And then once we're clear on that, he says, now let's start asking the how question. And let's go the other direction and say, OK, we know why. Now let's figure out the how and ask a series of how questions. Does that seem like a good model for you, or what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. I think when we can really help people tether to a sense of purpose, that is very, very powerful. And what is the why here? And I think when we are thinking about motivation, one thing we want to pay attention to is what is the source of that motivation? How internally motivated is someone and how externally motivated is someone? I think one thing that's important to understand is that when someone is in a place where the reasons they are making changes are almost completely based on pressure or external forces, they're going to be less likely than at the end of the day saying, no, this matters for me. I'm doing this because of how I value myself and what I know I need to do. So certainly other people, very powerful forces in terms of our motivation, and we all want to be looking outside of ourselves, but there's gotta be something, some reason why at the end of the day, this matters for you.

Right. So we're basically, we're talking intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. And the intrinsic motivation is the one that's gonna be enduring. And the other thing I like about the role of a financial advisor, as we think about them helping their clients in various stages of change, is that, you know, in the last 10, 12 years or so, we've seen the rise of robo-advisors and apps and technology investing. And back in those early years, people were thinking, "Oh my gosh, you know, it's the end of the financial advisor because look at all this technology. It's going to make advisors obsolete." It's been totally the opposite. It's like advisors are more needed today, I think, than ever. Certainly technology is going to automate and help extend the value of a financial advisor by automating some of those things. But we're talking here about the motivation and the values, and it's only a human in dialogue with their client that can bring that out. And so I always encourage advisors, that's a real value that you provide. And the more that you can do that in the discovery process and really help the client rediscover or uncover the values and the motivation, that's where real value is, and clients will pay through the moon for that as well.

Absolutely. And I really believe that advisors today, it's crucial to understand that because of the marketplace being what it is, your relationship with your client matters just as much, if not more, than your plan. So, really honing and developing those skills for really putting the human first in that experience is crucial right now for today's modern advisor. And part of the value of an advisor is to be able to help with this behavioral piece. And for a client to understand that part of the value is in those moments, especially of high emotionality, having someone else in our life to kind of save us from ourselves when the things we are pulled to do are not in our best interest is very, very important.

In your work, I think there's this concept of a presenting issue or presenting concern. So I'm curious, as you think about that in the work that you do as a clinical psychologist, how often is what someone comes to you saying, here's my issue, How often is that the real issue? And then how might that apply to a financial advisor if someone's ready to work with an advisor? How can the advisor figure out, is this really the issue or I need to dig a little further to get the issue behind the issue?

I would say that almost always someone is coming in and when I'm looking at an intake checklist of symptoms, what finally led to kind of enough distress to say, okay, maybe I should speak to someone. That's not the complete picture. So I need to look at the story under the story. So symptoms to me are just what is on the surface, and we need to understand what drove these symptoms in the first place. And if you think about someone first meeting with a professional, be that for psychotherapy, be that for financial advising, you know, there's not a preexisting relationship or trust. So there are things that they are maybe experiencing shame or a lot of fear about that they aren't going to share right away. And some of that comes over time. So you need to really build that foundation of trust and become a steward of the story that they start to entrust to you and never be taking something completely at face value. People seek help because they are uncomfortable, they are in pain. You know, oftentimes people are entering an advisory relationship at times of big transitions in their lives, so there is heightened emotionality. So, you know, that's an opportunity for you to provide tremendous support and value, but then you want to look outside of what they are telling— okay, this is my goal, this is what I need, this is my pain point. There's an opportunity to get to know someone and see more of the story, gather more context about what else they may be needing.

So there are many times when a financial advisor is in conversation with a client and it gets really emotional. What advice do you have for an advisor that's in a situation like that? I mean, I think it's maybe a natural reaction is, oh, you know, that's okay. Hey, don't worry about it. You know, let's just try and sweep it under the rug. I mean, the best advisors obviously don't do that. In your experience as a psychotherapist, obviously that's your day-to-day work is dealing with these highly charged and emotional issues. What's the best way for a financial advisor who's not, doesn't have the training that you do, what are some ideas for them to be thinking about in terms of how to deal with that and when it makes sense to actually refer that out to a professional?

I think really, holding this in mind, validation. And I want you to practice some empathy and perspective here. When you are fearful, when you are anxious, when you are worried and experiencing really intense emotion, how does that land with you when someone says, don't worry, it's fine, this isn't a big deal?

They're blowing it off.

Yes.

Yeah.

That can rupture the relationship because it's like, are you not hearing me? Are you not understanding me? Do you not care? And that's not necessarily the intent, but that is often the impact that has. So be careful how you are reassuring. Make sure your reassurance is not dismissal, even if in your mind as an advisor you're able to say, okay, I understand things about the markets. This is what is happening today. We need to look at the big picture. Hold that and meet someone where they are at and let them know, I see and I hear this is really, really difficult right now. So make that connection because someone is not going to be in a place to be able to take in even the value of that reassurance this much more rational information if you haven't validated the emotional experience first. And by validating, you aren't saying, you are right, this is something to panic about. It is saying, I see and recognize this is feeling really hard right now.

And being able to sit with the silence. I did a podcast here recently with David Novak, and some of you listening to this right now with Joy, you might have heard that episode with him. But at the very end, I asked him a question. And the question was, if you could bring one person back to life, and they could live with great health for 12 more months, who would that be? And we're looking at each other via Zoom. And 5 seconds go by, 10 seconds go by, 15 seconds go by, he's looking down. He finally looks up and I didn't say anything. I knew that he was getting very emotional here. And he said, "I know this is going to be a selfish answer." And then he gave his answer. And I'll just tease you all with that so you can go back and listen to the episode. But the normal reaction is, well, I just want to jump in and sort of help him out. But he was clearly feeling something and I just wanted him to roll with that. And it was a very heartfelt moment. So, I think that's a key skill as well for an advisor just to be comfortable with the silence.

Yeah, silence is something that we need to start to look at in our conversations as opportunity. You are creating space, and when you're leaving silence, there's an invitation for the other person to share, and you're giving someone a chance to process. So That's a real gift, especially if the person you're with is thinking about something that's really emotionally laden.

Yeah. And let's say you're working with someone, and you realize, oh my goodness, there's like 3 or 4 or 5 different things that are going on here. How do you as a psychologist, how do you prioritize? What do we need to work on first? And I'm imagining that they're all connected in some way. But how do you address what's the biggest priority? And I think there might be some application for advisors as well in terms of we can't do everything all at once, but how do you think about that?

So one way I go about it is I want to start by getting a sense of what matters the most and what is crucial to the person in front of you. So when I start a session with someone, I will ask— I'm not going in with my agenda. Because my agenda is in my mind, that may not be what is most important to them. So I'm starting with, what is the most important place for us to begin today? When you are seeing lots of things going on, so I'm getting lots of information through multiple channels in real time that I'm having to track. So I'm, I'm listening, I'm watching, I'm thinking about, okay, what have we discussed before? What do I know is important and upcoming in their life? Sometimes I'm getting something, a bubble is kind of put out where it's like, okay, this is big and this is important. And sometimes I either put a pin in that in my mind and say, okay, this is something to circle back to. I may decide in the moment that maybe I'm making an observation that I'm not sure they are even ready to address, and/or we don't have enough time to open it up. So I'm making a mental note of that. Sometimes I will even flag out loud and say, You just said something important there. I want us to put a pin in that. I want to make sure that not right now, but this is something important for us to circle back to.

This is just kind of a side question, but when you're having these conversations and you say, well, let's put a pin in that, do you have like a yellow pad and taking notes, or how do you make sure you don't forget those things?

So I think this is personal preference. I am someone— I'm not a physical note-taker because I really want to be present. So, you know, if there's something really important that I want to make sure I don't forget, I may jot it down afterwards in some kind of a note. But in terms of note-taking, I really, I think it depends upon the professional and their personal preference. What I do think is important is you want to make sure that your note-taking is not getting in the way of your relationship, and it's not you looking down You don't want to be missing something important. You don't want to forget it either. So kind of know yourself and know what is likely to create more problems for you in terms of forgetting or not being able to really be present and attentive.

And along those lines, oftentimes advisors will have a second person in the room with them to take the notes so the advisor can just stay focused on the conversation and not have to worry about taking taking the notes. Does that potentially inhibit the conversation at all, or the client's not really worried that there might be a second person in there?

Whenever there is a different person in the room, that's always going to change the dynamic. So I think that's something that you want to check in with the client about. How do you feel about that? Be very clear about that person's role. Where my mind goes to the parallel, sometimes working as a psychologist, is if I've ever been in a position where I've needed to work with a translator, say in an ER or something where there is another person there and that is necessary and it's helpful and useful for whatever work we are doing. But I'm always conscious that it is in the room. So I just want to name that out loud.

Okay. So I want to segue here to what I'll call a part 2. So we've talked about the change process. Now let's talk about some of the obstacles that can get in the way. And you may have touched on this a little bit, but But let's just start with our beliefs. And I know this could be a whole nother episode, but how are our beliefs formed? And how difficult is it for our beliefs to change? And what are ways that our beliefs do change over time?

So there are 3 things that we use to form our beliefs. So we have our own experiences, or maybe experiments that we go about conducting. We have kind of what we have come to accept as cultural or societal norms, and then we have what other people say that we internalize. So this may be education or mentoring, and these things come together to form our beliefs. In terms of how hard or easy it is to modify them, I think it is challenging. And we have to be willing and motivated to modify them. One of the reasons that is difficult for people to do is it requires a lot of humility to be willing to revise, especially publicly, something we've maybe said, or to start to show up a little bit differently, because our beliefs are going to drive our behavior. But if you can recognize, I hold some beliefs that are old, expired, no longer serving me, and you're willing to step back and be like, okay, what is some other information I need to be paying closer attention to that can help me develop a new, stronger, current belief that is helping me be smarter and make better choices and have healthier relationships? It is worth the work to do that. But then often one of the things that is crucial for modifying a belief is really paying attention to what evidence we are focusing and holding on to, because just human nature is whatever the belief is, we want to maintain that. That's good for our self-esteem, and it's a lot easier than constantly going through the cognitive work of restructuring these things. So we are just going to unconsciously be holding on to in our memory and our conscious attention things that support what we already believe. But if you recognize, no, I need to be challenging or changing this, making a concerted effort to ask yourself when that thought is coming up, okay, what do I know to be true that challenges this way of thinking, is a very powerful and crucial first step to kind of unearthing some of those very deep-seated things.

What I see a lot of, and we see, we see this in politics, we see it in social media, people will purposely share something that might be super provocative. To a lot of other people, it might seem completely delusional. But if I hold this belief that a lot of other people might say, well, that's just delusional, and that's just provably false, but they still believe it, it seems like they must be getting some value from that belief, whether it's they feel like they're part of a tribe and my tribe believes this, so I'm going to believe this, or it's part of my identity and I don't want to to have to, like you were saying, have some humility and say, "Oh, well, I guess I was wrong, 'cause that really was not a good belief system." So it seems like a lot of that's even getting worse because it's so easy for people to publish what it is that they believe, and we seem to get some status from that in some respects. And so there's some juice that we get from doing that. So it seems like that's hard to do. But what I also find, is, and let's move this back to what a financial advisor does, oftentimes I see that we try and reason someone out of a belief or a position that they emotion themselves into. And that's hard to do. So do you have any thoughts on if someone is engaging in destructive behavior? Let's just say the markets have dropped 20% or 25%. The client calls, they want to panic. Get me in cash, get me in cash. Okay, oftentimes the reaction is, oh, well, let's look at the last 20 times the market dropped 20%. It's always come back. Okay, well, that's facts, that's reason, but they're emotional, and usually the facts aren't going to outweigh the emotion. Do you have any thoughts on how we should meet someone who's really emotional to get them to make a good decision?

Absolutely. I think it goes back to that power of the validation leading with connection before you're following with facts is really important to get someone in a cognitive space to take that in. I think it's important to understand people's core beliefs about money run very deep, and the seeds of those were planted very, very early on. Our early experiences with money are very formative, and they shape what we do with it as adults, our attitudes about it, our feelings, how we allow ourselves to have it, or in some ways consciously and unconsciously keep it away. So I think understanding and developing an appreciation for what some of those beliefs are and the origin story of that, because I think we can engage with much more empathy and compassion when we can come to understand, okay, this is why and how you've come to see the world as you do. The thing about our beliefs and many of our behaviors, on some level, at some point, they were adaptive. Most people are not trying to move through their life blowing up their lives, hurting themselves and the people around us. So that is where empathy for the modern advisor is a superpower. Of being really curious about context.

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because one of the things that we teach in one of my other programs, ROL Advisor, is really what we call getting the client's storyboard. So it's just like you described. It's about we want to know where have you been, we want to know where you are and where you're going. And this where you've been is what you were just describing, is we want to understand a little bit about your upbringing. What were the influences that you had? What were the experiences that you had that have shaped how you've come to believe about money? And get those stories. And so we always want to understand what are some of those stories that are still lingering with you, that are still affecting that your behavior that you have today. And just like you said, if we can understand those stories, we can have more empathy, we can have more understanding and appreciation for why they're behaving the way that they do., and that will help shape the approach that we take. If we feel like that behavior is being destructive, at least we can understand where they're coming from, why they're thinking that, why they're feeling that. And now we might have, you know, better tools to be able to deal with that. Does that make sense?

Yes. If you want to understand a person's present behavior, you need to know about the past, because that is how they've gotten to where they are today and why they are doing what they are doing.

And I want to circle back here for just a minute and maybe tie this into some of these obstacles to change in that first we started off with this 6-stage change model, but there's a lot of, I'll call popular psychology today, things like Atomic Habits and The Power of Habit. So how do you think about habits as a form of change and some of the obstacles that we may face to implement habits that will help us change behavior? How do you think about that?

So I think habit change can be very, very useful. These are things that strategies people are engaging in on a very cognitive, conscious level and applying that to kind of what they are doing actively. I think if someone is in that, that action or readiness place and they can find some habits that are useful for them to replace that are then positively reinforced. I think habits are very, very powerful in our lives because if we can get something going on automatic, that serves us very well. When I think about obstacles to change, I think about kind of the knowing-doing gap in 3 ways. What gets in the way? What's standing in that gap? It's ourselves, it's the people around us, and it's our environment. And some of the things going on in each of these spheres, it's going to be deeper than habits. So having an appreciation of that is important to keep in mind.

Yeah, and let me just touch on that third piece you said there about the environment and the effect that, that has, and I think that is such a huge one. And I think about that in terms of like a company culture. And so people talk about, well, how do we change a company culture? And the culture runs really deep. It's not just simply the CEO of the company talking about, well, this is our culture, and these are our values, and these are our behaviors, and then it's just going to cascade down. Well, it doesn't work like that. It's all about the environment. It's about the structure that is created within the organization and the reward mechanisms and what gets rewarded in the organization, what's that path of least resistance for people to pursue. I mean, that's a huge thing that's going to impact what the culture of the organization is. And so I think that's all part of the environment that you talk about. And I think as advisors, we really need to think long and hard about the environment that our clients are in. And is that environment reinforcing or negating the appropriate behaviors? And I don't know if you have any examples in terms of what advisors can do, whether it's in helping create that environment or in helping their clients create good habits that lead to good financial outcomes.

Well, I think when thinking about the systemic change, we want to think about how and what behavior is incentivized. So that is going to be really important. When we think about setting up an environment, we want to think about, okay, what are the friction points that are making it harder to do what we are wanting someone to be able to do, and how can we get rid of those friction points? And then how can we make it easier Humans, we're all lazy in some ways, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. We are wired to be efficient beings. So how can we leverage that to make the healthy choices the easiest, the fastest ones? And I think when we're thinking about environment, it can be very easy to take this passive stance of, okay, well, this is, this is the world I live in. This is just how it is. And it's happening to me. Now, we are not victims of our environment. We want to be empowering people to be architects of their own environment, really identifying what are the areas where you have agency and control and can set yourself up in your environment for success.

Yeah, I like that phrase, architects of your environment. So a couple of things along those lines. So basically every night before I go to bed, I go into my closet and I think about, okay, what's my my workout going to be in the morning. And I go in there and I get out my workout clothes. I bring them out into the living room and I throw them on the floor. And so I usually go to bed before my wife does. So I did that last night. And I had my hiking pants, I had two shirts, I had my hiking socks, and I put it all down on the living room floor. And she looks at me and she says, that's a lot of heavy clothing. I said, well, it's going to be cold tomorrow morning. So that's part of my environment. Where I make it easy, where I get all my stuff out the night before. So that's one less thing I have to think about, and that's one less excuse that I have. So that's sort of one thing. Then a second thing is I try and do the workouts that I love to do, because I know a lot of people say, oh, I hate exercising. I'm just the opposite. I love exercising because oftentimes I'm listening to podcasts or I'm walking out in a forest, you know, with the snow, and I'm the only one there. So I try and create the environments that really draw me to it. Because if I have to rely on willpower, that's going to get exhausted at some point. I'm not going to make it. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that as well.

Absolutely. We can't wait to be in the mood for something. If we are telling ourselves, well, I'm going to make these changes— and oftentimes when people are thinking about change, they're feeling excited, they're feeling motivated— that is going to wax and wane, and you will have inconsistent follow-through and therefore diminished results if you are relying on mood and motivation. So deciding in advance is very, very important for this. You know, I think that what you described was great. Okay, I'm going to make it easy for myself in the morning to do what I'm setting out to do.

You know, another thing that I do that I think is super helpful, and everyone can do this too, is is I have a spreadsheet and I track every workout every day. And I literally have done this for, I mean, dating back to the, I'm gonna date myself here, but the late 1970s when I was in high school and I was in high school and college, an active distance runner, I tracked every workout. I wrote down the temperature, I wrote down how I felt, I wrote down my split times. I continue that to this day. And so every morning after I work out, the spreadsheet's up, I check the boxes, I write the workout that I did. You know, you get this little hit of dopamine and it's cross-referenced. That spreadsheet goes back decades. And so I can see on this day last year, here's what I did. You know, and then I set little goals, like I want to exercise X percent. Like my goal is to exercise 80% of the day. So 8 days out of 10, I think I'm at 94% year to date. So I'm a little bit ahead of schedule. So little things like that tracking, I think, gives people you know, some of that dopamine hit.

Yes, when we can build up momentum, often we don't want to break that streak. And at some point, often the streak is broken. And that's why it is crucial that people don't fall into this all-or-nothing mentality of, you can't view behavior changes while I'm on the wagon or off the wagon. It's okay, what do I need to do as soon as there's kind of a lapse or break to tell myself, okay, how do I do the next best thing? Because so often people are— the stories they are telling themselves can lead to shame and discouragement, and then it's harder to kind of restart the thing that serves them. I think we— it's really important that people look at kind of these missteps and sidesteps as this is part of being human, making mistakes. And we need to have some self-compassion and say, okay, so that happened. It wasn't the best choice. Now, how do I focus on doing better next time? That does not say anything about the kind of person I am or something fundamental at my core. That was just, okay, that was suboptimal. And how do I move on and continue to take care of myself? I also appreciate something else you said about This idea of it being enjoyable. So often when people are telling themselves, okay, I must be healthy in whatever ways, then the things they are telling themselves they need to do are things that they kind of dread. And I tell people, if it is not enjoyable in some way, the likelihood that you are going to sustain this for a lifetime are next to nothing. So if you can't choose something enjoyable, then it's useful to think about, okay, how do I sweeten the deal? It's something behavioral scientist Katie Milkman calls temptation bundling. You know, how do I pair a target behavior exclusively with something that I really love and enjoy that I'm going to save for that time that I'm engaging in the behavior that I am looking to increase or carry forward.

So like a little reward system, is that what you're saying?

Yeah. So if we take the gym example and say you're not super enthusiastic about going to the gym, you're trying to build the habit. I say, okay, well, don't do something you hate. But if that is what you have said, okay, I recognize I want to do this thinking, okay, what is something— maybe it's a podcast you love. You're telling yourself, okay, I'm only going to let myself listen to this while I'm going to the gym. Then, because of the way our brain pairs kind of rewards, you may find yourself looking forward to the activity because you're looking forward— that is your opportunity to have that thing you love. So add a spoonful of sugar. It can really help.

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. I do that all the time too. So, but what's interesting for me, maybe I'm just weird, but I'll say like, okay, we're going to do these workouts, or I've got a really long day at work, and then at the end of the day I'm going to reward myself with a glass of wine, or more often it's going to be cookies and cream ice cream with hot fudge. But then what I find is like, I do all this exercise and I'm feeling great, it's like, yeah, I really like that cookies and cream and hot fudge, but I'm going to go without the hot fudge this time because I don't want to ruin this healthy feeling that I've got. So It's like the healthier I get, the less I want to eat some of this, you know, you might call it comfort food, but I still get that.

So, and that's really important because when we think about the ways in which we get in our own way, self-sabotage is a huge, huge one. And self-sabotage is often— there's an unconscious process going on there. And something I really challenge people to look at is, okay, Are there ways that punishment is actually masquerading as reward in your life? Because yes, in the short term, maybe that bowl of whatever, that feels really good. But if that is getting in the way of you being the healthiest version of you in the long term, that is actually in that moment self-punishment. So starting to really be curious and observing and looking underneath. Okay, what am I actually doing to myself right now is important.

Yeah, and most people can't do that themselves. Most people need a third party like you, someone who's trained in helping you spot when someone is self-sabotaging. I've seen that as well with some of the clients that I work with, that they're not even realizing it. And then when we have a conversation about it, they realize Oh, yeah. And then they start making connections to years ago and why they're doing that. And, you know, then that gets into a whole different area. But, well, Joy, I could talk to you for hours. And there is one other area here that I want to make sure that we touch on. And that is, and I think we've touched on this a little bit, but when people make a change, how do we make it stick? So what are your thoughts on how we can maintain this positive change that we're making?

I think making sure that you've got positive reinforcement set up and then going back to what I said, what I think really gets in the way of change sticking is that instant that things are less than or imperfect. Not talking to yourself in a way that's going to induce shame and shut you down and discourage you. So saying, okay, that was a sidestep, and now I'm going to keep moving forward. So keeping your eye on the prize is really, really important.

Yeah, and I think community is also a key, and that if you can surround yourself with other people who are reinforcing the behaviors that you're trying to maintain— like, you know, the 12-step programs, I think, are a great example of just the power of community. I don't know if you have any Any thoughts on the importance of community as well?

Absolutely. Understanding that the people you surround yourself with are likely either holding you back or helping you move toward being a better version of yourself. So really auditing your relationships and thinking about how that may be helping or hindering you is important.

Yeah, and it's hard because if you've got someone in your life that's been in your life for a long time and they're actually a negative influence, for you to realize, I probably need to spend a lot less time with that person because they're not helping me become the kind of person that I want to be. So that can be very hard to do. So Joy, is there anything that you want to mention here that we haven't talked about yet before? I have one final question for you, but anything else you want to add?

No, I love this topic because, you know, change is hard. And, you know, I tell people as a clinician, part of my job is to help people understand compassionately how they may be unwittingly getting in their own way. And at the end of the day, we are all human. We all have blind spots. So I think really developing relationships with either a third-party professional or people in your life that you really know and trust who can help refract a more more expanded view of yourself because there are things about you that you unconsciously work really hard not to know and see, or you just don't have that vantage point and understanding about how other people may even be experiencing you. Surrounding yourself with those kind of people who can help you see those blind spots is a way that you can really move from one level to the next in your life.

Are there any books that you would recommend, whether they're psychology books or any other books that you think would be beneficial for financial advisors along the topic that we're talking about here today?

One of my favorite books for advisors is, uh, a dear friend and business partner, um, Brian Portner, Geometry of Wealth. And I think for any advisor who's really motivated at looking at, okay, how am I thinking about Behavior and meaning and motivation and what really matters in the life of my client. I think that that is a wonderful one. If someone is interested more in the trance theoretical model that we talked about, those stages of change, there's a book called Changing for Good that they may want to take a look at. Also Katie Milkman, I, I referenced her. She had a book come out, How to Change, and that delves a little bit deeper into some of these common frictions friction points that people have and some strategies, some really actionable, practical strategies. I talked about some of them, such as the temptation bundling, that people can use in their life.

Yeah, and I know a lot of folks listening to this obviously are into podcasts. I know both Brian and Katie have been on a lot of podcasts as well. I've listened to both of them on, on different shows, so you can always check that out as well. So I'm going to ask you one final question, but before I do that what's the best way for folks to get in touch with you and stay connected with you?

Absolutely. So you can learn about the work that I'm doing with advisors at shapingwealth.com, and you can visit my practice website. It's my name, joylere.com. I also have a Substack, Finding Joy, where I muse about life, love, and work. So you can check that out at joylere.substack.com. I spend plenty of time on Twitter. And my handle is my name and my degree, so JoyLarriePSYD. I'm also on LinkedIn if anyone would like to connect there.

Yeah, and I first found you on Twitter and clicked on a link and got to your Substack, and I'm like, this is really good. This, this person has a way with words and really some good insights here, really sharing some great things. So I definitely encourage folks to sign up for that. So, okay, here's the final question that I've been teasing So I asked the previous guest to come up with a question to ask my next guest, and they did not know who the guest was going to be. So here's the question that they wanted me to ask. And the question is, what's the unfinished business in your life and why?

That is a powerful question. I would say parenting. Being a parent is the hardest thing, the hardest, most vulnerable thing I have ever ever done. I am the mom to twin 4-year-olds, and this is a lifelong learning process. And knowing that it is going to change through my— and I'm never going to surrender that role. And I know as my children get older, they will need me differently. So I want to just continue to get to know them as they evolve and change. And I really seek to learn the work that I need to do to evolve and change as a parent, being able to love and support as they need me.

Yeah, well, as a parent to 3 daughters, I can agree wholeheartedly with that. It's a, it's a lifelong endeavor, that's for sure. Great. Well, Joy, this has been terrific. I appreciate you spending some time being on the show today.

It was a privilege. Thank you so much for having me.

My key takeaway from my conversation with Dr. Leary is the incredible opportunity that you have as an advisor to truly understand your clients at a deeper level by knowing their motivations and values, to understand the past experiences that have shaped their beliefs around money, and how you can become an expert at facilitating positive behavior change. That is a skill and a way of being that will never become obsolete. All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at barons.com/podcast. Take care and be safe.

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