Dennis Moseley-Williams: Advisors and the Power of a ‘Really Big Idea’

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Hello and welcome to Barron's The Way Forward. I'm Greg Bartalus, and my special guest today is Dennis Mosley-Williams, founder of DMW Strategic Consulting, a client experience marketing and strategic sales company focused on helping financial advisors, the financial services industry, and related professions. And today Dennis will talk about Cults. Welcome to the podcast.

It's wonderful to be back, Greg. Good to see you.

Good to see you. Now, you're not intending to speak about Heaven's Gate or Reverend Jim Jones, the strawberry vat-flavored Kool-Aid from the People's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana, or anything like that, are you?

No, not as such, no.

Okay, so now let's unpack this because I think we got the listener's attention. Now let's try to keep it.

Cult is a word that makes people uncomfortable. It makes Susan in my office remarkably uncomfortable. She doesn't want me to use it. She says, please say community. But what I like about cult is culture. And what I like about cults, if you will, even those that you mentioned, is what they all have in common and how that relates to a business, particularly a business like financial planning, but really any business, but in this case, financial planning.

Okay, so let's unpack this.

Okay, well, it begins with humans have a desire to belong. It is what makes us human. We want to belong. We want to associate with other people who see the world the way that we do. So for years and years, I've talked about experience as being your competitive differentiator, different from service. You know, it's not about efficiency. It's about meaningful time, creating time that's meaningful, memorable, deeply personal, etc. And then one day this just sort of occurred to me and I realized, no, no, the most successful advisors that I know and work with, they really have built cults where they're not the advisor, they're the charismatic leader, and they're bringing people around a really, really big idea. And that big idea obviously is bigger than everybody needs a lot of money to pay their bills in the future. It's a bigger idea than that. I think the idea is, you know, well-being, as an example.

Yeah, it's interesting because when I think about companies that have cult-like followings, you know, a few spring to mind. You have Apple with, you know, obviously what Steve Jobs did. You know, Tesla and Elon Musk got a big following. But what's really interesting to me is when you think about the financial services, you know, if you look at Vanguard specifically, Jack Bogle in a way, you have such a fierce and loyal following. You got the Boglehead. So there is that sense of community. What's interesting though, is that unlike Jobs and Musk, for example, you know, Bogle, he wasn't charismatic in the traditional sense of the word. His charisma or the adulation he engendered was more built on the foundation of his thinking and the value proposition and how he tangibly helped empower and build wealth for so many people, you know, not just Wall Street, but Main Street as well. And that was surrounded around a big idea, right? Like empowering you with really affordable funds. So, so I think that it's important to point out because a lot of people might say, you know, at first blush, oh yeah, you know, Apple and Tesla, these glamorous consumer-facing brands. I'm, you know, I'm an advisor. I'm supposed to be taken seriously. So how, how do you reconcile, right, the perception of that glitz, if you will, with the important business of financial planning and investing, et cetera.

Yeah, I hear you. I think that they shouldn't think that way. You have to look at what these big companies do. For the first time ever, just a moment ago, as you mentioned Vanguard, I thought, oh, for that matter, Warren Buffett. Yeah, exactly. He's a charismatic leader. And we should get away from the idea necessarily of like sexy, exciting charisma. It's thinking, values, and principle. And something else, and this is right to your question about financial advisors, all of the firms that we've mentioned are huge, big, giant international firms, but they didn't necessarily start that way. They started with a really big idea that was only appealing to a very small group of people. One of the people I like to mention as a hero of mine is Yvon Chouinard. He founded Patagonia. He started selling climbing tools to, and I use this term on purpose, to geeks like him, to freaky little weirdos that wanted to climb mountains and couldn't find an ice axe that worked. He sold them out of the trunk of his car. So if you take a financial advisor, turn that person into a charismatic leader, shift their thinking, don't go big, small. Try to stay as small as you possibly can. So that you are as appealing as possible to the smallest viable audience. Phil Knight, Nike, selling shoes to track, you know, to runners out of the trunk of his car. Start small. You need one client who can rally around that big idea and see where it takes you. So don't limit yourself to thinking we should all— I've tried to be in my own way Apple Computer for 20-some years. I'm a 2.5-person company. But in my mind, I act and behave like Apple.

Right. So I think— correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're kind of saying is that for a lot of these larger companies that become successful, the size is a byproduct of starting small and doing little things right, and then it builds on itself.

It's a consequence. Correct.

So you have a much more stable foundation as well. You're kind of earning your way into success as opposed to just throwing money at something and at least temporarily having heft.

Correct. And if you think just to jump on throwing money at something, so it's like, yeah, for instance, isn't that what marketing is? And if you, in the context of a cult, do cults market? No, they don't. They attract, they entice. Each member brings someone new. And that's what I would suggest every advisor should do. Get this idea of growth or perish out of your mind. Try and stay as small as you possibly can. Small, small, small.

Now let's talk about perception and conviction. And again, this is impossible to quantify, so that's acknowledged. Now you might have people like, yeah, I like that brand. Oh, they're good. As opposed to the people who are like, you know, let's say they're an Apple aficionado and they're like, I know I'm going to, you know, replace my phone in the future. I know I'm going to get a new MacBook. And so there are degrees of it. How do you I don't know, how do you kind of know it when you're at that point? I know you can't really, but are there any, like, telltale signs of, like, oh yeah, you kind of are legit, you are there?

You're trending towards cult. Yes. Here's the difference. There's two words: loyalty and belonging. Belonging is better. Loyalty is a slippery word, okay? Because you can have— there's two kinds of loyalty. Let's start there. There is the loyalty of fear and obligation. That's the loyalty we have to service providers such as your mobile telephone company. You might not love your mobile telephone company, but you're not gonna swap them out because of the perceived hassle in doing so. And at the end, you're just gonna end up with the same services, same bill, different colored letterhead. Then there's the loyalty you have to Apple. That's the loyalty of connection and identity, which is— I'm one of these Apple people, so I think I'm allowed to say this. I know that the Samsung Galaxy is a better product, okay? But I don't—

Lower your voice.

But I don't care. But I don't care. Now, that is the loyalty of connection identity. But the third word here is belonging. Belonging is bigger than loyalty, because loyalty is about benefits and identity. Whereas belonging is about the benefits of knowing Greg, but it's also about stories, worldview, transformation, gatherings, rituals, identity. So you are trending towards a cult-like following when you build belonging with your clients, where, and their loyalty has to do with connection, identity, and a shared sense of values. Values is huge. And global study, I've been looking in all my keynotes, this book, book I'm working on, the top 3 things around the world that people want. They want their family to be healthy, they want their own personal health, and they want financial independence. Number 4, values. Around the world, we want to know and work with people with whom we share values. And in our business, we get into a lot of trouble talking about the features and benefits of the service of financial planning, we don't do enough thinking about who we're turning the client into. Who are we helping the client become? What is wealth? What is well-being? And it's a stretch. I think we talked about this before, the difference between the assigned work of financial planning and then the required work that all clients need, but they don't necessarily ask for it.

Yeah, the belonging is definitely— it's a core human need. I mean, to just get out of the realm of money. You know, there are a lot of people who might lack structure, might turn to crime or whatever. Like, you need your group. That's just a human desire. And more broadly, for people who have most of those needs met, they still want it. And I think with belonging, part of this might involve like making your customers feel special, right?

Amen.

And I guess if you want to feel an element that you're part of an exclusive group, and I don't know if you can offer perks, early access to things or things that are not readily accessible, it kind of Riff on that, if you will.

People want to belong. And what they want— what we get trapped in is we get trapped in, in business thinking, saving people time, getting them to the transaction as quickly as possible. But what they really want is time with you that is meaningful, memorable, and deeply, deeply personal. For all of the advisors listening, what you're— I really, I believe this, and I've been saying so for 30 years. Your job is to make your clients slightly uncomfortable. And by that, I mean the more times you can and have your clients say, wow, Greg, that's amazing, I've never thought about that before, you're doing your job. That's your job. Your job is to get them to think that way and to make them feel special. If you think about, you know, I say this often, service is what you do. It's what everybody else does. It competes on price. Experience is how you do it. And we know using simple examples like Starbucks, that when the person feels seen, known, as an individual and not just another person in line, they'll pay more, the transaction matters more to them. But I'm pushing everybody towards consequence. What happens to people because they know you? And what all brands, the best brands in the world have in common, the local ones, the corner store in your neighborhood that only people in your neighborhood know about, the restaurant in your city, regional, national, international, in all different industries, what they all have in common is people talk about them. People don't talk about services. What they talk about is what happened to them because of you. That's what you want to zero in on. It's very deeply, deeply personal. But who are you helping these people become? What would they tell you?

And if you could break it down, be a little more granular and more within the realm of actionable ideas and brass tacks, like What are some things for an advisor listening where they can kind of take this? I think you're being directionally very clear, but to just make it a little more palatable and implementable, if you will.

Okay. I think that in every aspect of your client's life that they feel is related to their overall sense of well-being, I truly believe is your job now. Okay, so this can be your sense of self, your sense of accomplishment, your personal aspirations. Okay, it can be what were the best books that you read last year, Greg, making you the advisor? Why were they great? Have you shared them with your clients? Have you hosted a book club around these ideas? What is the big idea? What kind of events do you have? My advisor invited me into an event years ago. I've told this story many times. There's a little cocktail reception ahead of time. I don't know any of the people that are there. We're chatting. It never really comes up. It's a beautiful story. My advisor gets up at the front of the room. It was a cooking class. Okay, so just hear me out. Gets up at the front and he says, "Do y'all get to meet each other?" Like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah." He says, "Did you figure out what you all have in common yet?" Finally, 'cause I was like, and I, now, 'cause I work in the business, I knew, yeah, based on the other guy that's on the stage right now, we all own whatever mutual fund that guy's in. Anyway, he says, "You're all Air Canada Super Elite members." Means you fly all the time. We look at each other literally like, "A club. Oh my, you know my secret pain." And my advisor said this. This is beautiful. He says, "Okay, so here's what tonight is about. The next time you're on the road and you call home," and it's a little— he was very funny. He said, "And your wife is down to her last mummy nerve." That's what he said. I've used the line myself a million times since. He said, "And you, instead of saying, 'I'll get dinner tomorrow,'" which means at the time of this, there was no such thing as Uber Eats, by the way. I'm gonna land at the airport, order something on my phone, pick it up like a hero, and bring it in the door. He just shook his head like no to that. And he put his fingers together like cat's cradle, you know? And he says, "No, tonight you're gonna learn how to make 3 things. And the next time you make that phone call, you're gonna land, you're gonna go to the grocery store, buy 7 ingredients, you're gonna come home and you're gonna keep your family whole, like that. 10, I don't like to think of myself this way, type A dudes standing, we all went, do it, this is amazing. His whole business, this advisor, is built around this big idea. Better people, better spouses, better parents. That's what his business is all about. I tell you the story and I get chills, literally. It's amazing.

That's definitely interesting. I want to mention something that you often talk about in your work, and that's the experience economy that we're in. And you gave a talk that was quite interesting, and I'd like it if you could share the narrative arc. And it begins with you talking about the 1970s, which you correctly deem to be a really, really awesome decade for various reasons. In which, you know, par for the course then was, you know, mom would make a cake from scratch. It was a commodity and it was just important, but de rigueur that, you know, she would make it with her hands from scratch. And I think it cost like 30 cents or whatever. And, you know, then mom got busy and like, I'll buy it from the box. And then you bought the icing in a container and that was more expensive, but there was the convenience that she saved time. And then, and I'm sorry, I don't want, you know, I'll stop there 'cause I don't want to steal your story, but I just want to put you in the right direction and you can take it from there.

I was worried for a minute, I was like, oh no, '70s, I was telling a funny story. Oh, oh dear, here it goes. I was using the example of the different ways that you can celebrate a birthday to illustrate the different economies that we have lived through from the agrarian economy, commodities, your mom making the cake from scratch, the industrial economy, the cake mix, the service economy, buying the cake at the bakery, and then the experience economy, renting a facility such as a Chuck E. Cheese and having a birthday experience there. Now, you said the magic word: time. What we don't think about in business is time. We're always thinking about the product, but the value is time and what we do with it. So everybody listening, you have to ask yourself, Am I busy saving my client's time? Because people don't pay for that. That's convenience. That's service. Experience. Time well spent. I'm paying a premium. I don't want to rush. Think about a financial planning meeting. That's a service. I do it for you. Let's have our meeting on Zoom. I'll save you the drive downtown. That's becoming a commodity as a choice. And that is an example of how you become commoditized. Experience. Come to my office, and from before you even arrive on the enticing phase, the experience has begun. Experience is time well designed. Imagine a meeting that is so thoroughly enjoyable. Deep time, time, time, time designed for you that's deeply personal, meaningful, and the hallmark of an experience is memorable. Now, and this is why I'm at Barron's, this is what I'm talking about tomorrow. What comes after the experience economy? The transformation economy, where the predominant economic offering is the new you, self-improvement, achieving your personal aspirations, which fits so perfectly well with what financial planning is. An advisor stages a series of sequential events, beginning with an elaborate onboarding process and carrying through review meetings and check-in calls and client events to guide the client to a transformation, to achieving their personal aspirations, which would be in the context of a birthday, your 16th birthday when you got your driver's license. It's a transformation. Some birth— all birthdays are great, but some of them— I turned 50 a few years ago. My next one coming up will be 60. Some of them are more meaningful more meaningful than others for various reasons.

What I find really interesting is that this dynamic that you explained is manifesting itself in many different ways. So, for example, with the birthday party, imagine if today a 4th grader was invited to a friend's birthday, and they went to the house, and we went back to the 1970s, and it was like, cake was made, they, let's say, ate in the driveway surrounded by a table or whatever. But it would almost be now, the table stakes or the given is much more elevated, and what's interesting is the status quo now also happens to be a lot more expensive too for most people. Absolutely. And I can imagine though that this dynamic will manifest itself in many other parts of the economy where it's more still commoditized and/or service the scheme, if you will, and that it's gonna— there's like opportunities there to take things that we might think now are somewhat mundane and someone's gonna make it hip and cool and modern and fresh and suddenly it's like, oh, We gotta do that, and they're all gonna start moving with the herd, and then if you're doing something that today might be seen as like, oh, totally fine, in 5 years that might look outdated, dowdy, just totally not with it.

Correct, and if you go forward, so I went to school for anthropology. I always love reminding people that, 'cause it's a good, I've milked it for jokes on stage forever. By the way, I went to school for anthropology. Thanks for having me down, but, Anthropology is the study of culture. Cult. As people change, our people change. Americans. As Americans change, North Americans, Europeans, as they change, they change as a people, their needs and wants as clients change. This idea that I'm sharing isn't exactly new. Since the very first transaction ever happened, I'll give you 2 chickens for a duck. Since the agrarian economy, commodities. The economy is constantly changing and business is constantly adapting to meet clients where they are. Becoming a commodity is a choice. So is becoming the story that everybody wants to share. And how we do that is pushing beyond that assigned work. I work with an advisor very loosely. He's not a client of mine, to be clear. He's in the UK. He said to me one day, I have a I have a psychologist on retainer for my clients. I said, what? What? He says, oh yeah. And then he gave me— he said, you know, Dennis, I'm not going to imitate him, but man, I do a good impersonation of him. He said, Dennis, even when you get offered a new job with more money and better benefits and you can take that job, it's still stressful to leave your friends. Sometimes you just got to talk about it. And I said, that's really cool. He said to me, if you left your advisor's office right now, and as he walked you to the door, if he said, Dennis, anything else? And you said to that— this is so powerful— and you said to him, half joking, although look at me, I'm clearly not completely joking, I could use a trainer. I need a trainer. I need to get somebody to help me out. Physical fitness. He says, if that advisor knew a personal trainer, so wait a second, I got one. Fantastic. Worked with my wife, now me. You'd love him. He's a hero. Then he loaded questions. What if he doesn't know one? I said, yeah. He says, you'd be on your own. I said, that's right. And this is how we— this is really how I arrived at any— it's very personal— any aspect of my life that I feel is part of my well-being. Well-being equals wealth. I need help with that. So I'm not saying to everybody listening, you better go find a trainer for you. No, but I am saying community, cult, network. Imagine if every year around the holidays, your clients received a beautiful leather-bound book from you. And in that directory is everyone you are associated with, and by association, they are. That's value, right? Like, you need a roofer? I got one. You need a personal— I got elder care? I've got one. Tutoring? Got one. Got all that stuff. Become that leader.

So yeah, meeting and also anticipating future needs.

Amen. Look ahead. Where is this going? What is Dennis dealing with now? Next in his life. You know, you just— I should talk to you every day. Oh my goodness. Really, really good advisors, they worry about their clients more often than their clients probably realize. It's a fact. They just lose sleep worrying about their clients. But amazing client— amazing advisors, they worry about the things their clients don't Talk to them about what's Dennis not sharing. And that's what time well spent— take me on a walk in a park, man, where I'm caught— not in your office. Change the environment. Bring me out. Let me talk. And let me be in a headspace where I can say, I'm kind of worried about blank. If you really want to know, I'm kind of into that. And then go find me the resources to fix it. That's it. That's value.

Excellent. Well, speaking of time well spent, this interview.

You're wonderful.

And unfortunately, speaking of time, we're out of time. So we're gonna wrap it up. And I wanna thank you again for joining.

Thanks, man. You're the best.

Thank you. My guest has been Dennis Mosley-Williams. For more podcasts and the latest wealth management news, visit barons.com/advisor. For The Way Forward, I'm Greg Bartolis.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.