Doug Messina: Be Yourself and Connect With Clients | Next Gen

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Welcome to Barron's Advisor: The Way Forward Next Generation, a special series spotlighting the emerging leaders shaping the future of financial advice. Twice a month, we'll be digging into the strategies, insights, and game-changing moves that will help you take your practice to the next level. I'm your host, Allison Tucci, and today with me is Doug Messina from Rise Private Wealth Management at Ameriprise. He's a private wealth advisor. And today we're going to be talking about, you guessed it, relationships, relationships, relationships. So let's just dive right into it. What got you into financial planning and becoming a financial advisor?

When I was younger, my parents didn't have a lot of money. Blue-collar family. My father was a construction worker, didn't go to college. And My mom stayed home with us for a number of years and became an art teacher in public schools. But my family came into like a tiny bit of money and unfortunately it wasn't managed properly. And I remember every night, you know, the bank was calling the house and the house was going to be in foreclosure pretty much. I just remember thinking like, you know, didn't have the best advisor in the world at that time and just thinking that, you know, we got to, we got to figure this money thing out.

Well, I feel like advisors back in the day were more brokers and more stock pickers versus nowadays we're more financial planners. They're thinking more holistically. Do you see that as well in overarching themes? And how do you apply that to practice?

Yeah, absolutely. I think if you're only transactional or if you're doing only investment management, right? All it takes is one bad quarter or one bad year, you know, in the markets or, you know, that investment and the client can move on easily. I think when you're a financial planner, you know everything about that client's life. So I remember we had a conference earlier this year where we had a speaker speak to the whole team and he was trying to kind of test the advisors. And he points at me, he goes, who's your biggest client? Or one of them. And I named the person and he goes, who's his CPA? And named the CPA. And he's like, well, what are his kids? I named all the kids and the grandkids and the estate agent.

There you go. You showed him up.

And he goes, you know, he's like, that, that backfired tremendously. Let's go on to the next person.

Right.

But, you know, point being is that I think the relationship is much stickier. And, you know, in that type of relationship, it's not so much what the market did today or what the market's going to do next week. It's, you know, You know, what are we planning for and what does this mean for you and your family ultimately? So that's where the planner comes into play. And I think it's just a lot more value.

So when you're talking to an advisor, maybe on your team who wants to make that transition to build those strong relationships, are there some guidance that you give them, guide rails or a short checklist? Like, how do you think about it if someone's transitioning from their mindset of equity stock picker to relationship manager?

So we're actually, I mean, we're always going through that, but I'm just thinking recently we hired someone fresh out of college just a few months ago. And when I was his age, I remember thinking like, you know, I wanted to be able to pick stocks. I wanted to know all about, you know, private equity and hedge funds. And what it comes down to, though, really is, again, not finding, you know, the best investment because no one has a magic bullet. But when it comes to relationships, you have to be able to connect with people. You have to be able to show empathy. You have to understand, you know, what, you know, this person is going through and how you can help them. And if I had 3 things that, you know, I had a, you know, that I would tell a younger advisor just starting out, it's not, you know, anything market related. It's, you know, the first would be, be honest. Always be honest. The second would be be yourself, you know, because at the end of the day, people want to work with people that they like or people that are like them. And you have to have that connection. And the third would be, you know, always put yourself in the client's position. You know, if I were the client, let's say, you know, whether I recommend a particular investment or I was planning for retirement, you know, what would I be feeling as the client right now? And is this the right thing? Would I be doing this?

I feel like there's, I mean, every day there's a new product, a new structure, a new, you know, you say it, it's almost appearing daily for financial advisors. How do you decipher between, you know, the latest trick or the latest product versus something tried and true?

So I've adopted the KISS method as I've gotten older. I've been doing this now for over 20 years. And I remember, again, when I first started, I actually didn't start off as an advisor. I started off as an analyst.

Okay.

So, you know, I was very into portfolio building and asset allocation and looking at alternative investments. And the team I was with did a lot of management for foundations and endowments. So everyone wanted to have that David Swensen model of, you know, the Yale endowment and having a lot in, you know, real estate and alternatives. And then 2008 happened and that humbled me. And I think it humbled just about everyone. But I realize that if it's too complex or convoluted, like, I'd rather probably just go with the basics on this one, you know? But I think at the end of the day, it's not so much about, you know, what's the best product. Of course, we have to keep up to speed with all that. And, you know, crypto is an example. We get questions a lot about that. Or, you know, should I be buying more gold now? But at the end of the day, I always like to say, how does this tie into your plan, right? We want to think of the plan and the goals as buckets, right? So I want to make sure you still have plenty in cash reserves and emergency funds. Will you have enough in your intermediate bucket to fund those goals? Kids' and grandkids' education, is that bucket filled? The long-term bucket, where we can be maybe a little bit more aggressive, that's IRA and 401(k) money. And keeping that all diversified. And not getting too cute.

So for advisors that maybe haven't gone through an '08 situation, you have, right? So you've gone through it. What sort of advice would you give them as potentially preparing for some sort of market correction? How can they make sure that they're arming themselves, arming their team, arming their clients?

Those events will happen again, of course. You know, we will see a recession again. It's But I think, again, tying this into relationship, if you make sure that, okay, you know, that we have money that's set aside in the cash reserves and the emergency fund, money set aside here for long-term goals. When we do financial planning, we're baking in recessions. We know there's going to be recessions. We know there's going to be bear markets. But talking to the clients before that happens is key because it will happen. But if you could educate your clients and, tell them, hey, look, it's not that we're going to try and time the market. You know, that never works. But if we look back and say, okay, well, look, if we go through a correction or, you know, some bear market, well, we're not selling stocks for you now, Mr. and Mrs. Client, because we have 2 years of withdrawal needs set aside in cash and money markets. That's where your retirement paycheck's coming from. So the market will rebound and You know, we're not selling in a down market.

So you talk a lot about the relationship with the client being the cornerstone. Can you provide an example of when that has been truly beneficial, where you maybe made a difference and how you did that, how you approach that relationship?

So I'll share an example. About a couple of years ago, I was working with a husband and wife, and he was with a company he's been with for a very long time. And that company at the time, though, was starting to announce layoffs. But he felt that he was secure. He was there a long time and he had a few years left until retirement. Lo and behold, he got laid off. And, you know, we had— not that we had planned for that, but again, we had plenty of cash aside. There was no need to make any rash decisions. I think due to a few things that were going on in their lives. And he's like, "I don't know, what do we do now? And do I have to go back to work?" And it was easy figuring out the numbers part of all this. And I said, "No, you don't have to go back to work right away and you're gonna be fine." I said, "Why don't you take some time to just decompress?" And while we were doing the financial, having the financial planning session, I always like to do things interactively. So I said, "Look, I know you guys love to travel to a particular country in Southeast Asia." Let's just say that. I said, "Why don't we build in the plan if you move there for a little while?" And so you proposed that? Yeah.

Okay.

And sometimes when I do this, you know, clients would normally take me up on it, but they just say, "Oh, well, I don't know if that's going to happen." But I said, "Well, no, let's build it in." Built in the expenses. We built in, hey, what if you rent out your house that you have, here in the States and never worked again, you know, could that, is that something that you could do? And it showed that, you know, worked into the plan, they could do it. And within a week I got an email from him and he said, oh, we just bought a one-way ticket there. And they've been there ever since, you know, for the past, you know, that was at least 2 years ago.

Oh, wow. They've been in Southeast Asia this entire time?

Yeah. And they love it. They love it. They said, They're like, we wouldn't have made this decision if you didn't, you know, give us the go-ahead and think that it were possible.

How do you build these relationships with clients that you know that they want to go to Southeast Asia or, you know, is it just over years? Is it time and seed? Or how do you foster these relationships?

It's years. It's years, you know, and you get to know the rest of the family. The rest of the family becomes clients.

You know, the CPA, it sounds like.

Yeah, but you're there, you know, this obviously this trusted partner, but also I always say like I'm the quarterback here, right? And, you know, I know there are other professional relationships, but also again, when we're doing planning and we're talking about estate planning and gifting and a number of other things, trust, you know, and you see how it ties in with all the other folks in the family. That relationship becomes pretty sticky. But it's also about meeting outside of the office. I've been to clients' homes, I've been to clients' weddings, and I'd have events too that were just, let's get outside of the office and get to know one another personally. And just, we're people at the end of the day. And I think in this day and age too, where you see where AI is going, all the more reason to put more emphasis on the human side.

Now, let's say you're giving advice to an advisor that's on your team, and they can't get a client on the phone. They can't— it's not answering. They can't get them to meet outside the office. Let's pretend I'm the advisor. What would you say to me of what I should do or what I should change or how I can potentially engage my client more directly.

So, you know, there's going to be some people out there, right, that maybe this is not what really jazzes them, right? They don't want to talk about finances all the time. They don't want to talk about estate planning or— but there's one client I'm thinking of where I could write an email like, hey, you know, we haven't seen each other a while. Really, we need to get together. I want to talk about year-end gifting or tax planning. And I'll get nothing. But if I write to him about, you know, questions about gardening, I'll get an essay back.

That's great.

So it's like, okay, now I know what to do to get his attention. And while we're talking about that, okay, let's also talk about this other stuff that we can talk about.

Just throw it in the portfolio in between the gardening tricks. I like that.

It's knowing your client, but really knowing your client.

Yeah. You're listening to Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward: Next Generation. We're going to take a short break. Stay with us.

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Welcome back to Barron's Advisor: The Way Forward, Next Generation. Let's get back into the conversation. Pivoting a little bit to advisors that you're, that you're working with. Succession is something that is talked about a lot in the industry. How are you approaching succession right now?

So we had merged last year with another large ensemble team at Ameriprise. So our team, there's a group within Ameriprise called Quantum Leap, and it's about a little over a dozen other teams throughout the country, big ensemble teams that have, you know, 20 to 50+ employees and advisors. That's a huge team. So Jerry Pell, who was the CEO and president of Pell Wealth Partners, the team that I was with since 2013, you know, a few years ago had approached me and one of the other senior advisors about succession. And at that time we said, well, I don't want to be CEO. I still want to spend time working with my clients. And so it seemed to make sense to merge with another big team who had a broader, longer succession plan in place. And here at Rise, there's a number of equity partners, and they want to get to a point where just about everyone on the team has some equity in the company so that, really, there's going to be this sustainability at the firm level. Just like we plan for generational planning with our clients, we want to make sure the business is going to be around for a long time. But I think it's about, you know, getting people excited about having equity, whether, you know, you're advisor or support staff or, you know, so everyone's got some skin in the game.

Okay.

And, you know, the equity partners and, you know, the folks that have equity in the company continue to grow. And, you know, at this point, you know, after the merger, there's about 90 of us altogether. And, you know, through acquisitions and the company's just going to keep growing. But it's about, having more and more people have skin in the game.

How do you determine the difference between advisor succession and business continuity?

So succession, I mean, obviously is sustainability at the firm level, but business continuity. So I could tell you that, you know, when I started over 20 years ago, when I joined the first team, Jerry's team, Pell Wealth at Ameriprise in 2013, didn't have the AUM I have today, right? There were advisors on her team too that were getting older and they wanted to retire at some point. You know, at some point, advisors want to retire too, like their clients. And we began the process of, you know, I guess we would call it, let's say, DOCing, right? Demonstrating, Observing, Confirming. But it's like, okay, we're going to sit on this meeting together. You're going to meet Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so and learn about them, what's important to them, and, everything, you know, their portfolio and their financial plan. And after being together for a few meetings, then, okay, now Doug's going to work, you know, so it's by doing.

It's that talking is like doing essentially in the meetings.

Yeah, we don't just send the client a letter, say, oh, this is your advisor and good luck.

Negative consent.

Because again, it's all about the relationship, right? So if you want to maintain that relationship, You know, even after, let's say, you know, if I had been working with a client for 10 years and now they're going to go to, you know, say, my junior FA, like, I'm not just going to say, oh yeah, here and good luck. It was great, you know, great relationship while we were together. No, I'm going to be in on those meetings. Right. I'm going to make sure that, you know, it's being done right and that we go through this process. And then I'll kind of, you know, fade into the background. Yeah, wean myself off, so to speak. But we want to make sure the client obviously is kept in good hands and We don't leave until the client says, yeah, I'm comfortable with so-and-so now and I know how to reach you if I need you.

Yeah, I was just going to ask you, what are some of those tells that you know that a client is ready, the junior FA is ready, and how can you as a junior FA get up to speed faster?

Oh my goodness. Well, the tells from the client. Well, first of all, I mean, I'll get the feedback too, right? And you'll see just from personality-wise, hey, is it a fit? Right. But even in the meeting, I'll start to kind of take a step back and let the junior FA kind of talk about whatever it is, their portfolio, the performance, the markets, whatever they're talking about. And I'll just kind of be quiet.

Okay.

Let them start building the rapport. And you start to see those signs in the meetings. And then sometimes when I thought, oh, I may need to be on the next 3, 4, or 5 meetings, it may end up being just 2, you know, because the client's already really comfortable.

Is engaged, is talking to the— refers to maybe more in the meeting than yourself as you're fading into the background.

And, you know, for the junior FA too, I mean, as far as being up to speed, I mean, obviously there's the basics, right? You got to have all your licenses. We want all our advisors to be CFPs, you know, certified financial planners. But it's going to be experience too. And one of those things which we haven't had in a while, I guess, is like a real down market. But, but, you know, all those things come with time. I mean, no one is going to be an amazing advisor right out the gate. I mean, it takes experience just like anything else. And, you know, when I first started, I was worried because I didn't have gray hair. And now I have plenty. But so, but, you know, time and experience and it'll come.

So for advisors maybe listening right now that don't have the gray hair yet and they're maybe, you know, impatient or they don't want to wait for that sort of years or reps on goal or shots, any sort of advice that you'd give them or things to read, books, podcasts, let's do beside this one, but any sort of things you can sort of lean in and get up to speed faster?

You know, it's tough to say. I mean, yeah, there's tons of books out there. You know, there's— we just read, it was about a year ago, the 10x is better than 2x book. And, you know, having that vision is great. And, yeah, listening to certain podcasts or reading the Wall Street Journal, I mean, all that's important. But at the end of the day, and I just keep coming back to this, it's You have to be able to connect with people. If you're only hyper-focused on just what's happening in the market, it's not going to do a whole heck of a lot. You have to be able to connect because it's a relationship business. It's a people business. So I would say have more of a focus on that. All the other stuff you could learn about. Whether you go down the rabbit hole on precious metals or crypto or hedge fund.

I mean, that's—

it's great to learn about all that and meet with those firms as well and learn what they do. And but for what we do, I mean, you have to be able to connect with people. I don't know how one really gets better at that. I think that's something that If you're a caring person, I think it'll kind of come naturally. But remind yourself this is a people business.

I like that. So we'll leave our listeners with remind yourself that this is a people business. I mean, I always was given advice, you have two ears and one mouth, so you should listen twice as much as you should talk. So maybe that's something as well that folks can lean in and listen a little bit more to their clients. Take up gardening maybe.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Okay, well, is there anything else, Doug, that you'd want to leave our listeners with as we're wrapping up today?

No, I'll just say relationship, relationship, relationship. And, you know, the markets will go up, the markets will go down. But, you know, if you have that trusted relationship built, then, you know, unlike if you were just doing investment only, you know, where it's one bad quarter, you know, and the client can move on, it's, Stickier. Yeah, it's absolutely stickier and all about the relationship.

It's fantastic. Well, thank you, Doug, so much for coming in today.

Thank you.

The production team for Barron's Advisor: The Way Forward: Next Generation is Ellie Ismailidou, Rebecca Bisdale, Paul LeBlanc, and Alexis Moore. Jenna Mathis is the director of programming for Barron's Advisor Programs. Greg Bertollis is the editor-in-chief of Barron's Wealth and Asset Management Group. Allison Tucci is a freelance host for Barron's Advisor and SVP at AssetMarkt. We'll see you next time.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.